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Unofficial Feedback: Devoted Cleric Changes

As others around here have stated, the DC changes in the first preview build largely seem designed to devalue the DO while leaving the AC basically untouched.

Stopping the stacking of WoL and BYS seems like a common sense fix, but the nerfing of HG (DO's signature daily by default and still with a built-in CD) and BtS seems targeted much more towards bringing DO down a peg as a support partner, assumedly to pave the way for a MoF CW or Templock to compete for that slot, which of course does nothing to address the end-game meta of four supporting players fluffing a single DPS and probably does little to convince players to stop taking both DCs.

The change to Flame Strike is nice and all, but irrelevant to party play and only minimally impactful to solo play.

I enjoy both AC and DO, and I don't like that these changes seem to hurt DO disproportionately. AC carries on business as usual as primary power sharer and AA-spammer while DO gets slightly worse overall? Sure, most of the changes apply to powers and feats shared by both paths, but functionally they impact DO party gameplay more significantly. Limiting power sharing is a necessary step in the right direction, but I think options for making different group compositions attractive other than making DO worse and seeing if players are willing to replace them with another buff/debuff character should be explored.
Sacrilege - Warlock
Contagion - Cleric
Testament - Wizard
Pestilence - Ranger
Dominion - Paladin

NIGHTSWATCH

Comments

  • darthtzarrdarthtzarr Member Posts: 1,003 Arc User
    edited January 2018
    A best in slot AC can barely hold its own against a DO (even partially geared) even with the Anointed Champion playing perfectly. A lot of people gave Anointed Champion a lot of implied value from things like Hastening Light (which is very good, and still bugged in the preview version of mod 13) and CC immunity, but when talking about straight DPS increases, DO will almost always come out on top as the better buff class.

    AC can beat DO in theory, but in practice very very few Anointed Champions that I have seen actually reached a point where they could consistently beat a half-decent Divine Oracle. By "very very few" I mean I can count the number of them on one hand.

    With this being said, DO and AC should be similarly powerful at buffing a party with DPS buffs as each other, although this assumes AC power won't increase next mod in contrast to the DPS's power (but chances are they will change, so we will have to see).

    That being said, I agree with you. I highly doubt these changes will even dent the double DC meta. No other support class even comes remotely close to either cleric's individual buffing potential even after excluding the stacking of the nerfed stack mechanics. We are talking about ~100% party buff totals from the weakest cleric vs. ~40% party buff totals from the strongest warlock. Sorry but warlock cannot make up that missing buff total by their DPS alone.

    I do appreciate the step in the right direction (nerfing an overpowered class), and I do appreciate doing it in more gradual steps compared to some of the previous nerfs we have seen, but my gut feeling is that these changes aren't even close to enough, especially since all of the cleric bugs (some of which make them considerably more powerful than probably intended) haven't been addressed yet.

    Signature [WIP] - tyvm John

  • mamalion1234mamalion1234 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 3,404 Arc User
    vorphied said:

    As others around here have stated, the DC changes in the first preview build largely seem designed to devalue the DO while leaving the AC basically untouched.

    Stopping the stacking of WoL and BYS seems like a common sense fix, but the nerfing of HG (DO's signature daily by default and still with a built-in CD) and BtS seems targeted much more towards bringing DO down a peg as a support partner, assumedly to pave the way for a MoF CW or Templock to compete for that slot, which of course does nothing to address the end-game meta of four supporting players fluffing a single DPS and probably does little to convince players to stop taking both DCs.

    The change to Flame Strike is nice and all, but irrelevant to party play and only minimally impactful to solo play.

    I enjoy both AC and DO, and I don't like that these changes seem to hurt DO disproportionately. AC carries on business as usual as primary power sharer and AA-spammer while DO gets slightly worse overall? Sure, most of the changes apply to powers and feats shared by both paths, but functionally they impact DO party gameplay more significantly. Limiting power sharing is a necessary step in the right direction, but I think options for making different group compositions attractive other than making DO worse and seeing if players are willing to replace them with another buff/debuff character should be explored.

    I believe both clerics are equal good. Dont forget that an ac has a daily cannot guarantee that a companion will get it ( army) and blessing the battle and the weapons of light are good as the terifying insight.
    INcreasing 1 member damage wasnt an option at least for me as ac ( when playing alone i dont use the exaltation).
    With closed i would choose a do over an ac if my party has already very good power buff.
    With closed eyes i will choose an ac if not good or no power buff in my team this one has to be good ac also.
  • mebengalsfan#9264 mebengalsfan Member Posts: 3,169 Arc User
    edited January 2018

    A best in slot AC can barely hold its own against a DO (even partially geared) even with the Anointed Champion playing perfectly. A lot of people gave Anointed Champion a lot of implied value from things like Hastening Light (which is very good, and still bugged in the preview version of mod 13) and CC immunity, but when talking about straight DPS increases, DO will almost always come out on top as the better buff class.

    AC can beat DO in theory, but in practice very very few Anointed Champions that I have seen actually reached a point where they could consistently beat a half-decent Divine Oracle. By "very very few" I mean I can count the number of them on one hand.

    With this being said, DO and AC should be similarly powerful at buffing a party with DPS buffs as each other, although this assumes AC power won't increase next mod in contrast to the DPS's power (but chances are they will change, so we will have to see).

    That being said, I agree with you. I highly doubt these changes will even dent the double DC meta. No other support class even comes remotely close to either cleric's individual buffing potential even after excluding the stacking of the nerfed stack mechanics. We are talking about ~100% party buff totals from the weakest cleric vs. ~40% party buff totals from the strongest warlock. Sorry but warlock cannot make up that missing buff total by their DPS alone.

    I do appreciate the step in the right direction (nerfing an overpowered class), and I do appreciate doing it in more gradual steps compared to some of the previous nerfs we have seen, but my gut feeling is that these changes aren't even close to enough, especially since all of the cleric bugs (some of which make them considerably more powerful than probably intended) haven't been addressed yet.

    Overall the 2 DC meta does win out but a well built CW MoF Renegade can help out just as much as a 2nd DC. CW offers 3% stat sharing, 20% damage buff from Swath of Destruction, defense reduction from Combustive Action, combat advantage from Nightmare Wizardy and 30% damage buff when Chaotic Fury proc or another Chaos Magic buff.

    A templock with the mod 13 updates will also help out much better than the current templock build.

    There are other class options, that are not a DC, that can help the group out and it is a matter of educating the in game community more than anything else.

  • jazzfongjazzfong Member Posts: 1,079 Arc User
    Not only the powershare and buffs, the main advantages of bringing an AC is rapid casts of party wide cc immune daily and its synergy with insignia bonuses. If multi-run content that need cc-immune such as TONG, AC is a must and DO can be replaced by MoF etc or other dps/buff/debuff hybrid.

    Anyway what i saw is:
    1. Nerf of Virtuous AP build because of immortal bubbledin.
    2. ICD on Hallowed Ground because of high team dps and AP gain, also wasted all the effort getting a mythic DC sigil.
    3. Nerf of AS due to too many zeros in pvp.
    4. Nerf of healing (and crit severity as well) due to immortal GF, OP, TR etcc in pvp.
    5. Nerf of AA power share so only DC cries and DPS with bonding still be happy.
    6. Nerf of Bts due to too high team dps.
    7. Nerf of HG due to too high team dps.
    8. Disable stacking of WoL and Bys ( Even 10% matters... well...)
    9. Tons of bug remain unfix: plaguefire disable fire of the gods etc.
    10. Dead virtuous and faithful paragon feat path as well as some of the best heroic feat jokes in neverwinter.
    11. Not a single race except dragonborn with STR/WIS bonus.

    Too many things to complain, yet still playing DC. Lets see when we will get a serious buff or paragon rework, making it into a three variation (buff, heal, dps) or continue receiving nerfs because of others. If 70% of the community is dps and only 15% is DC, nerfing DC is always the best option to do, right devs?
  • mebengalsfan#9264 mebengalsfan Member Posts: 3,169 Arc User
    jazzfong said:

    Not only the powershare and buffs, the main advantages of bringing an AC is rapid casts of party wide cc immune daily and its synergy with insignia bonuses. If multi-run content that need cc-immune such as TONG, AC is a must and DO can be replaced by MoF etc or other dps/buff/debuff hybrid.

    Anyway what i saw is:
    1. Nerf of Virtuous AP build because of immortal bubbledin.
    2. ICD on Hallowed Ground because of high team dps and AP gain, also wasted all the effort getting a mythic DC sigil.
    3. Nerf of AS due to too many zeros in pvp.
    4. Nerf of healing (and crit severity as well) due to immortal GF, OP, TR etcc in pvp.
    5. Nerf of AA power share so only DC cries and DPS with bonding still be happy.
    6. Nerf of Bts due to too high team dps.
    7. Nerf of HG due to too high team dps.
    8. Disable stacking of WoL and Bys ( Even 10% matters... well...)
    9. Tons of bug remain unfix: plaguefire disable fire of the gods etc.
    10. Dead virtuous and faithful paragon feat path as well as some of the best heroic feat jokes in neverwinter.
    11. Not a single race except dragonborn with STR/WIS bonus.

    Too many things to complain, yet still playing DC. Lets see when we will get a serious buff or paragon rework, making it into a three variation (buff, heal, dps) or continue receiving nerfs because of others. If 70% of the community is dps and only 15% is DC, nerfing DC is always the best option to do, right devs?

    I don't hate the DC changes. DC are to vital for a group and these changes are making 2 DC not as attract long term. It will help the game out over the long run but with these changes the devs need to consider some rework on the DC class to give us an option to run as a full blown DPS if we wanted to. Right now, DC are seriously bad at damage and a full on paragon path focused on damage would be a great addition since the adjustments thus far has not favored DC the past year. DC's ATM are the new SW for adjusting us downward. :(


    Here are my thoughts where the devs should go with the three paragon paths.

    1) Buff/Debuff - Virtuous
    2) Healing/Protection - Faithful
    3) DPS - Righteous

    The current Righteous feats would be moved to the Virtuous path with some minor updates. New feats would be created for the updated Righteous path. Faithful would be updated to include any feat that helps protect of increase base healing for a DC that is in any of the three current paragon paths.

    This would give DC's three viable playstyles and would greatly help those of us who solo content where at times it can be difficult when compared to other classes due to a lack of damage that DC's can do.

    The other thing is if the devs decide to limit all classes to roles based on the paragon path picked it would be easier due to the three path set. With AC being a protector with AA, it would be easier to limit the buff/debuff path when AC is selected and same with the DO.

    There are my thoughts on this class for fixes. What the devs do with the class, I will adjust my play style as needed.

  • vorphiedvorphied Member Posts: 1,870 Arc User
    edited January 2018

    I don't hate the DC changes. DC are to vital for a group and these changes are making 2 DC not as attract long term. It will help the game out over the long run but with these changes the devs need to consider some rework on the DC class to give us an option to run as a full blown DPS if we wanted to. Right now, DC are seriously bad at damage and a full on paragon path focused on damage would be a great addition since the adjustments thus far has not favored DC the past year.

    Righteous is already quite strong in DPS for the purpose of any kind of solo activity provided that the DC invests into some supporting combat stats like at least a passable crit rate and suitable ArP for the content they're soloing (a Dread enchantment certainly doesn't hurt, either); separating the buff/debuff options in that tree would be very likely to result in a nerf of some kind, so I'm not sure I would want them to touch it. I'd rather that they took another pass over Virtuous and Faithful to make them more competitive options while not removing the party-friendly feats from Righteous.

    As it is, I like that the same path that provides the buffs and debuffs that are most desired for end-game dungeons comes packaged with a damage boost; that way I don't feel utterly pathetic even when I roll with a 100% buff/debuff loadout, and I can help carry DPS in a more "casual" dungeon without a dedicated high-DPS character.

    Sacrilege - Warlock
    Contagion - Cleric
    Testament - Wizard
    Pestilence - Ranger
    Dominion - Paladin

    NIGHTSWATCH

  • vorphiedvorphied Member Posts: 1,870 Arc User
    edited January 2018

    Right now, DC are seriously bad at damage and a full on paragon path focused on damage would be a great addition since the adjustments thus far has not favored DC the past year.

    In my experience, DC can be quite good at damage if built with at least passable supporting combat stats like crit and ArP appropriate for the content being done. Solo DC questing is a breeze with Righteous spec and a decent DPS setup.

    Personally I would prefer that they not divorce the party buff and debuff feats from Righteous since it's nice to have that party utility in the same tree that allows for some actual damage contribution and often proves extremely useful in dungeons below ToNG, where you are less likely to be running with a single super-high DPS character tasked with killing everything. A high-DPS DC can make random runs with more diverse parties so much faster and easier.

    I definitely agree that Virtuous and Faithful need love, though. As it is they bring very little to the table since they are godawful for solo and provide mostly unnecessary protection and overhealing to party play. Once in a while I may need to bust out dedicated healing powers when Divine Glow and Repurpose Soul healing isn't enough for a party without sufficient Life Steal etc., but using Virtuous or Faithful isn't really necessary.

    Sacrilege - Warlock
    Contagion - Cleric
    Testament - Wizard
    Pestilence - Ranger
    Dominion - Paladin

    NIGHTSWATCH

  • chiennedeluxechiennedeluxe Member Posts: 111 Arc User
    MOD 13 will change nothing, meta will still be 2 dcs. The fact that having 2 dc + 1 dps > 2dps 1 dc is not because of dc buffs, it is because of the DIFFERENCES in dammage output of the dps classes that is too big. It always was.
    Papa Smurf / Uncle Ben --DC
    Santa Claus --GF
    Gargamel --CW
  • preechr#2215 preechr Member Posts: 488 Arc User
    Not even close to being true
  • schietindebuxschietindebux Member Posts: 4,292 Arc User
    edited January 2018
    It´s about math and about this I would say, mulitplied damage in the end. Hard to stand against 1 dps that deals damage like 19 dps.
    Griffons Wrath with 53 mio hits are documented like that. So pick all those buffer like OP, DC, DC, CW and let that GF do the job. That´s the message.
    thx to @oria1 for the sheet

  • arcanjo86arcanjo86 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,093 Arc User
    in all caps LET ME POINT OUT THE EASIEST WAY TO END 2DC META WITHOUT NERFS, ADD AN EXCEPTION ON ALL QUEUE CONTENT FOR 1 HEALER(dc/op/sw temp). dev team wasting time nerfing feats/powers, etc. not gonna help the game improve.
  • arcanjo86arcanjo86 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,093 Arc User
    edited January 2018
    doesnt the mof need to have a 100% crit chance(all the time) to apply smolder from critical conflagration then procs swath of destruction debuff?
  • schietindebuxschietindebux Member Posts: 4,292 Arc User
    arcanjo86 said:

    in all caps LET ME POINT OUT THE EASIEST WAY TO END 2DC META WITHOUT NERFS, ADD AN EXCEPTION ON ALL QUEUE CONTENT FOR 1 HEALER(dc/op/sw temp). dev team wasting time nerfing feats/powers, etc. not gonna help the game improve.

    leading to the fact that no templock and no devo Op will take part at any time, in any premade setup to run endcontent...thy in advance
  • tom#6998 tom Member Posts: 952 Arc User
    > @schietindebux said:
    > in all caps LET ME POINT OUT THE EASIEST WAY TO END 2DC META WITHOUT NERFS, ADD AN EXCEPTION ON ALL QUEUE CONTENT FOR 1 HEALER(dc/op/sw temp). dev team wasting time nerfing feats/powers, etc. not gonna help the game improve.
    >
    > leading to the fact that no templock and no devo Op will take part at any time, in any premade setup to run endcontent...thy in advance

    Templock next mod is super strong.
    Buffing capabilities are better then mofrene and longstr hr
  • schietindebuxschietindebux Member Posts: 4,292 Arc User
    edited January 2018
    tom#6998 said:

    > @schietindebux said:

    > in all caps LET ME POINT OUT THE EASIEST WAY TO END 2DC META WITHOUT NERFS, ADD AN EXCEPTION ON ALL QUEUE CONTENT FOR 1 HEALER(dc/op/sw temp). dev team wasting time nerfing feats/powers, etc. not gonna help the game improve.

    >

    > leading to the fact that no templock and no devo Op will take part at any time, in any premade setup to run endcontent...thy in advance



    Templock next mod is super strong.

    Buffing capabilities are better then mofrene and longstr hr

    Look at what my post refers to.
    "ADD AN EXCEPTION ON ALL QUEUE CONTENT FOR 1 HEALER(dc/op/sw temp)" (those caps are from the original post, not mine)

    If I try to build a premade group , that allows only one leader in a dungeon, who would I pick?
    A DC with a multiplier ability like 1.35x1.2x1.2x1.12, a near 24/7 55% debuff plus heavy mitigation tool, a devo pally with powersharing x1.4, a 30% debuff and Aura of courage x1.2 (in case GF tanks that dungeon), or a templock with a maybe buff like 1.18 x 1.05, a powerbuff like 7k and a debuff for 30%, to some degree 55%? Before DR that´s a 161 to 192% dps increase.

    I did that math, but based on the fact that DT and Pop-buff is up all time (wich is not), DO nerf includet:
    The multiplier in the sum for case 2 (mof) and case 3 (templock) , case 4 (Temp+ mof+1xDO-DC, no WoL) in mod 13 looks like this:
    case2: 1.8x1.94x1.69x1.14x 140%(171,5%) -- on hit +1615%
    Case3: 1.8x1.94x1.69x1.31(powerbuff 7%)x 120%(140%) -- on hit + 1700%
    Case 4: 2.18x1.69x1.14x1.31x 168% (226,5%)--on hit +1468% (this counts all those inconsistent buffs from lock/CW as 100% up)

    In the sum temp>CW due to better support in terms of healing/mitigation

    Templock will be the go for in a group like that: OP-DC-DC-support (temp/mof/Hunter/GF) - dps
    But will stay at the lower end regarding the damage he can contribute compared to a mof or Hunter, since he will stick with DreadTheft + WB/HG and might get a bugfix soon.
    In the end OP+double DC is set in stone as meta in mod 13, the templock, same as mof and other buffer will stay options, better ones than in mod 12b though.
    Post edited by schietindebux on
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