test content
Logo
What is the Arc Client?
Install Arc
Forums > Home› Class Forums›
Buff GF - what is this exactly ???
lantern22
Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,111 Arc User
I see ppl asking for Buff GFs, mainly for ToNG but I'd like to get an idea of what is expected of a buff GF.
I would expect it means Tactician, with the appropriate feats.
The other day I was in a FBI run and there was a Pally who said they would tank, and because I can't claim to be a DPS GF, I said I'd buff. But I was told I was doing it badly (I think).
Into the Fray is obvious but after that I'm not 100% sure, what encounters and rotation would GF's use when playing a buffing role?
I would have thought mass marking is one of a buffing GF's role, but when I did that I started stealing aggro.
Crushing Pin is the other main buff/debuff - but to apply that en masse I use the guarded assault offhand Power and for that you need to be getting hit regularly, i.e. tanking. The other option is knee breaker or Griffons, but that is single target and only seems decent at bosses.
Should I have been standing next to the "tank" and just doing exactly what I would be if I was tanking the dungeon?
I guess another aspect would be a debuffing weapon enchant like a frost, Plague Fire or terror (and at the moment I have a Feytouched which doesn't help with buffing).
What recovery (and therefore uptime for ItF) do we think is expected for a "buff" GF?
I would appreciate hearing some opinions on this.
I would expect it means Tactician, with the appropriate feats.
The other day I was in a FBI run and there was a Pally who said they would tank, and because I can't claim to be a DPS GF, I said I'd buff. But I was told I was doing it badly (I think).
Into the Fray is obvious but after that I'm not 100% sure, what encounters and rotation would GF's use when playing a buffing role?
I would have thought mass marking is one of a buffing GF's role, but when I did that I started stealing aggro.
Crushing Pin is the other main buff/debuff - but to apply that en masse I use the guarded assault offhand Power and for that you need to be getting hit regularly, i.e. tanking. The other option is knee breaker or Griffons, but that is single target and only seems decent at bosses.
Should I have been standing next to the "tank" and just doing exactly what I would be if I was tanking the dungeon?
I guess another aspect would be a debuffing weapon enchant like a frost, Plague Fire or terror (and at the moment I have a Feytouched which doesn't help with buffing).
What recovery (and therefore uptime for ItF) do we think is expected for a "buff" GF?
I would appreciate hearing some opinions on this.
1
Comments
I have a GF with a tactican and a conqueror spec. TBH I talked to a buff GF, we compared group buffs. He has 5% more dmg buff, generates more AP and Mitigates some dmg for the group. A decent conqueror GF deals a ton of dmg in single target fights, mitigates 50% dmg from the boss by using KC and otherwise has almost the same benefits as a buff GF.
The only reason to run tactican is, if you are the main tank and the boss really deals a ton of dmg or your group is really squishy.
(my account have only few days so i cant post link here)
Here is great guide for GF tank/buff
You find all what you must know for GF buff. Weap ench, companion, stat, skills etc.
Like @asterotg says, the buff GF thing isn't as big a deal as it sounds. The one thing that Tactician does is more AP gain for the party. Using Valhalla set with KV will definitely make your party a lot less squishy, but if your party is overgeared for the content that won't make much of a difference. I was around 13K tactician when T9G came out, and after a few weeks I stopped gearing for tanking and starting gearing for dps Conqueror...
I think the reason you were told you were playing it "badly" is because the people in your party weren't dropping things in a few seconds and didn't realize that "buff GF" is no substitute for a Righteous DC.
And it's that pally's fault for not holding aggro. As long as you ain't using enforced threat or smth, you're golden.
But to answer your question: In tong I run 24/7 ITF and spam CS. Spreading crushing pin with GA offhand. You will need aggro to spread pin and provide buffs to AP gain for your party. I also own few debuff companions and currently using con artist. I also have like 16k recovery after bonding proc.
Probably poor positioning on my part - I should have been next to the Pally, I was playing like I was on my DC or another non-tank class. i.e. so wasn't applying crushing pin effectively
Should have kept using enforced threat and not worried about the aggro
Should have been using commanders strike (maybe)
Recovery is too low - only 5K, hasn't been a stat I've been focusing on - I've been going for Crit/Power to help with holding aggro (not sure if that has been a smart move).
Another question, what enchants are ppl using in their offense slots?
I also did not meet that many "buff-GF´s" that could run KV at 3. boss easily, depends a bit on your party and skills I would say.
Running beside a OP and DC with hastening light and Flash of light limits the need of recovery significant also most of the time.
I sometimes go ITF, CS and Knee/Griffon if my team is fighting Orcus in ToNG but only if I run with OP as primary tank. If not, then I focus on keeping my team alive. Remember - dead dps does no damage
If it goes for offensive slots I run mostly Silver/Wicked/Gigantic setup. I was using darks before, but my guild progressed with SH and now our armpen boon + combination of Wicked/Gigantic enchantments gives me enough armpen. Actually, even too much, cuase I have like 100% of it now lol.
I highly recommend to get recovery to at least 10k. If you're solotanking then you need it. If you're not doing non-meta runs and always have DCs and OPs in your party then you could skip your recovery stats for more damage but remember that recovery also gives Action Points gain. I often run without DC with just me and my guildies who are dps and thanks to my recovery I'm able to keep ITF 24/7 on them.
If you're running ToNG and solo tanking it, I would say KV is a must on last boss. Especially when souls pop up. It keeps team alive.
GF primary role is defender and controller not striker- he missed his role long time ago since OP is way better in tanking mobs and bosses so we have got problem here- if they nerfed GFs damage he will stay with nothing. Can't find good solution here.
arcgames.com/en/games/neverwinter/news/detail/9983813
I am blind or something? Where did you get that "Damage dealer"??
> There are plenty of films on YouTube like this:
>
> GF primary role is defender and controller not striker- he missed his role long time ago since OP is way better in tanking mobs and bosses so we have got problem here- if they nerfed GFs damage he will stay with nothing. Can't find good solution here.
>
> In the game classes page it says that GF is defense focused and damage dealer. Yes, in dungeons you are the tank, but all Conqueror path is a full dps path.
> arcgames.com/en/games/neverwinter/news/detail/9983813
>
>
>
>
>
> I am blind or something? Where did you get that "Damage dealer"??
Click the link, sword master the main paragon for pve is a damage dealer
Let's keep it that way.
But somehow the meta wants him to be something else, buhu
Btw., IV GF can debuff even more than a SM-tact from double mark, or did they change it?
The rest is gear. I'm also fond of Black Ice Enchantments now (ty @checkmatein3 ) whereas before I used Brutals. Debuff Weapon enchantment, debuff pet and have recently abandoned my Prot build due to finding out (very) recently that Surging Tide Debuffs enemy damage by 10% for the party not just for the GF using it ty @rjc9000 ). The Prot capstone is now no longer worth using for me.
Then there is playstyle, personally I prefer to use Extended Mark with the 5% extra debuff on OH Artifact Power, Crushing Pin is better, but EM is more flexible and obviously provides more threat which I think is worth losing 5% over.
Am not sure if using GA/KV and Crushing Pin feat still debuffs enemies that merely strike your teammates as, like I said, I stopped using Crushing Pin a while ago, I do know that Terror no longer debuffs enemies that strike teammates if you run KV, even if you also run GA alongside it whereas before it would.
I usually run Enforced Threat / KV / ITF but if there is an HR using Aspect of the Pack or an MoF with the Nightmare Wizardry feat in the group I swap out ET for Comander's Strike as both of those powers mentioned grant almost perma CA bonuses. I use TAB marking to mark all enemies, even trash as I haven't got a lot else to do when fighting trash and bosses retain the TAB mark even though it must be reapplied intermittently.
However, I also usually run GA and SoS, which work well with Extended Mark as I generate threat on anything I damage, I can get away with this on all content except Ras Nsi which I normally switch GA for Steel Defense. But my gear and level enchantments, while not BiS, is very very good (Almost approaching 17k).
A buff GF should have at minimum ITF...from there you can go Tac or Conq and sometimes need KV. It all depends on the group and what you need to bring to the group as a GF.
I tried this in one o my T9 runs. I swapped to my Conqueror build just to see how the group would manage. The extra damage took out two of the DPS in the group and we had to wipe on the 2nd boss. So a buff GF needs not only ITF, KV, and CS, etc...they also need to ensure they are providing the group a reduction in damage and using EF or marking the target for CA.
The reality is you only need one strong DPS in T9. Than you can go with four buffers. If the solo DPS is strong enough it will be a super fast run. I have been in a single T9 run with a strong GF for DPS and the other GF we had was buffing to keep the DPS GF alive by using KV and the buffer used ITF which allowed the DPS another encounter for further damage. That has been my fastest T9 now, a bit over 20 minutes. DPS GF are just brutes when it comes to single target bosses, especially when buffed.
and also the featured satirical comedic adventure "A Call for Heroes".
Are you a tank? No!
Are you a dps? No!
What are you? Buff!
Well thats not really enough. Imho you have to pick 2 of 3 the roles to help your party!
There really should only be two types of GFs (Conq or Tact) our "Tank" setup is useless as both a Conq build and Tact build can easily tank any and all of the content (Depending on gear and skill).
I mainly play a Tact build geared towards DPS, buffing is not hard, so my objective is to make sure that I have CP on everything, I do this through Lycosa's Barbed Gloves, which inflicts Partial Paralysis on mobs and activates CP. I also run Enhanced Mark, if the OP tank is good enough I won't pull aggro off of him and I am providing a 5% damage increase as well as the other benefits from marking. Through the Tact tree you are providing a massive gain to AP for your team (which is made even faster if you are taking damage, but its easy to find ways to take damage without being the tank). ITF provides a boost to DPS, with enough recovery you can keep this up 100%. Commander's Strike is great for bosses, also another staple for the GF "Buff".
Knight's Valor is another skill that a lot of group dang near require a GF to use at all times, which is disappointing because not all dungeons or groups require that much survive-ability, if I have a group that is struggling I will sometimes need to pop KV, but that is mostly for the mountain climb in FBI or the fight with Strahd; however, KV can be a wonderful tool for getting your AP battery going.
Mostly I find myself keeping up with the secondary DPSer, sometimes I beat them. The point is, there should not be any GF who is trying to specialize solely in Buff or Tank. A good GF can be a DPS, a DPS/Buff, or a Tank/Buff.
Now that they have messed around with our SWW and GW though our DPS has seen some better days...
> Lots of GF from lfg are stating they are buff only.
> Are you a tank? No!
> Are you a dps? No!
> What are you? Buff!
>
> Well thats not really enough.
> The point is, there should not be any GF who is trying to specialize solely in Buff or Tank. A good GF can be a DPS, a DPS/Buff, or a Tank/Buff.
*****
Best answer of all IMHO.
All GFs are "tanks plus". Full stop.
GFs can fill various party roles (primary tank/aggro, buff/tank, 2nd DPS/buff/tank, tanky main DPS).
Roles differ, But you are at all times a tank.
Those posting in LFG are mostly DPS or 2nd-tier support as they have a harder time finding groups then OPs, DCs and (to a lesser extent) GFs.
Presumably, they are communicating your role in that party.
They already have an OP-Prot who will be the primary tank role.
Therefore, they are filling a party role-slot (buffer) and are not expecting the GF to be the primary aggro-holding tank role.
Even in this case the GF must be prepared to bear some of the tank burden, FBI hill climb for example. Every GF must know how to use KV if needed.
There is no such thing as a "GF who only Buffs".
Anyone who says they are is uninformed.
I am Took.
"Full plate and packing steel" in NW since 2013.
1. OP PROT ( tank ), GF DPS, BUFF1,BUFF2,BUFF3 -> Awkward, gf steals aggro so its hard to get most out of powershare but doable. in trash OP has to engage first to get hit, during bosses just stand in the same spot to both get hit by AoE.
2. OP PROT ( tank ) GF BUFF, DPS, BUFF1,BUFF2 -> this is propably what you ment, your job is to 1 not steal aggro, 2 ITF 100%, 3 Commanders strike 4 crushing pin and 5 mark ( very good party composition that works well with both well geared and undergeared toons. Main problem might be stealing aggro from OP, but only if you do somthing wrong as GF, or OP is simply bad.
3. DPS "tank" , GF BUFF, OP devo BUFF, BUFF1,BUFF2,BUFF3. this is party composition i see very often once i reached 17k, there is so much buffs going around that even the most squishy dps cant die, so the tanking is meaningless. everyone just focuses on buffing the main dps to burn faster, and the insane dmg he makes makes him a target, that cant die due to AA/shield of faith and other goodies.
4. GF TANK, OP DEVO, DPS, BUFF1,BUFF2,BUFF3 -> another common party comp both for endgame and early content, everyone buffs dps, GF both tanks and buffs, everyone focuses on dmg, GF can take a hit. Simple, easy, good.
5. GF DPS, OP devo/prot, BUFF1,BUFF2,BUFF3 -> with devo its simple buff the HAMSTER out of GF and let things melt, with prot it gets more complicated since prot has to get hit, works similar to 1. but its very good.
6. GF DPS/BUFF OP prot/devo DPS, BUFF1,BUFF2 -> this is very often seen party comp, where you have main dps, op as a supporting role as prot/devo and GF that both buffs and acts as secoundary DPS.
there is more variations but this is the gist of it.
If a group calls out for a GF buff it typically means a Tac build GF for the run. This adds 5% more damage buff for Into the Frey, Action Point gain and damage reduction. The buff GF maybe required to run Knights Valor but should always be running command strike. The GF buff summoned companion should be one that provides a big debuff the best companion is the dancing shield. Sword enchantment that offers additional debuffs are welcome such as bronzewood and terror.
A dps GF runs the Fey enchantment and the only buffs it is offering the group is the 40% damage buff from Into the Frey and Crushing Pin; now if a dps GF runs with a buff GF than the dps GF will drop ITF for another ability to produce more damage.
Gear is another thing that you can tell the type of GF you maybe running with; many buff GF run Lycos Barbed glove and/or the ring of the curse bringer whereas a DPS GF will run fearbringer or survivor wraps with shadowstalker rings. A full buff GF will also run the MC set for additional recovery vs. the Orcus set, but I find that with 12K recovery and with a AC DC or a OP running Aura of Wisdom I can easily keep ITF up without losing that buff.
There are players like myself that splits between the two that have just enough to be a buff but also can do a bit more than expected in damage as a buff GF due to a combination of gear and enchantments because of laziness or financial restraints to setup our GF as both a buffer and a DPS.
As for the setup you listed; the one I see more players calling for are a Buff GF, Devo OP, DC, Buff DPS and full one DPS. What I find is the most effective group is DPS GF, Devo OP, DC, and 2 buff DPS that can produce high damage like a Renegade DPS CW. This group I find is the most effective to run through content.
In practice, you're probably going to see slightly less than a 40% DPS increase from the basic GF contributions (ITF+Crushing Pin alone) because of other teammates' debuffs. While I think bringing a Tactician for purely Inspiring Leader (and violation of common sense capstone) is silly, Inspiring Leader is more than 5% in practice.
It's 1.05 ^ number of stacks the GF can pull off. For most, it can be 2, maybe 3, but I've heard of 4-5 stacks on GFs that really go out of their way to max out their Recovery. The bolded part is a little silly, just pick up someone else with DPS and bring them along for the ride. The other DPS clears the AoE, the GF clears the boss, and maybe you can even bring a noob to carry with you while you're at it.
It won't kill GFs to have to run ITF instead of Anvil, unless your goal is some specific one phase or speed kill video.