It doesn't leave so many classes out of the game. There are 4 distinct unique classes in the current meta. In the mod 5 meta, there was 1 class and 1 class only. Whether or not 3 of those 4 classes are support classes is not relevant, because if there was a 1 tank, 2 dc, 2 dps meta, then inevitably, 1 tank would be preferred over the other and so the other tank would feel left out. That is simply because at a most fundamental level, there will always be 1 tank class that is more efficient than another. Furthermore, if you are choosing dps purely based off their dps, there will always be 1 preferred dps class for the meta and so that 2 dc, 2 dps, 1 tank meta is likely to only feature 3 unique classes, not 4. The only imbalance in the 2 dc meta is the fact that there are 2 dcs and that is it. We have had far more imbalanced metas in the past.
Whether or not you could pug and finish in mo 5 was not really important, that was solely because the game was so easy at that point that even the worst players in the game could finish stuff. Was lfg asking for a specific party composition? Yes. What was the party composition? 5 CW. And that was your mod 5 meta, stacking 5 of 1 class. It isn't even possible to have a worse meta than that.
Nope. Back then in mod 5, I see most people in LFG calling out for tank, dps, healer and stuff. Specific 5 cw party? Frankly i dont remember seeing it and i m sure of it. Else i wont be playing any dungeon without being a cw back then. The only thing i remember thats they call out specifically are gear score. Where as now? Everybody and their gamdma is looking for AC/DO dc, gf buff, OP & gwf. Why? dungeon got difficult? or because that combination outperform all? maybe both? Thats is why i say mod 5 class balance is healthier than the current one. People still able to play the content with the class they pick in mod 5.
You can be as selective as you like with your memory and it doesn't make what I am saying any less true. See that search button on the top right hand side of the forums? Type into it "nerf CW" or, "5 CW party" and see what comes up. You will see threads like this, this and this. In mod 5 I can very clearly remember, "lf4m CWs 17k+" being the lfg norm for CN and other dungeons and people saying otherwise either didn't play back then, or were living under a rock.
Lets say just to make you happy they nerfed GF, OP and DC and now a 3 dps, 1 healer, 1 tank meta was the thing. I will bet those 3 dps will all be 1 class and now you will have a meta with 5 classes complaining about not having a spot rather than 4 classes complaining. Why? Simply because 1 tank will be better than the other, so that tank will be preferred. 1 healer will be better than the other, so that healer will be preferred and 1 dps will be better than the others, so that dps will be preferred. Furthermore, if you remove all party buffs then the very moment a tank or healer is no longer required that slot will be replaced by that dps class which is better than the rest. Give it enough time and you are back to a 5 dps meta.
So yes, I will very clearly state that this is 1 of the better meta's we have had, it is not a rainbow meta, but its closer than we have been many times in the past. And to anyone who thinks they can balance the classes so that all classes are equally good I will say this: I can argue that on a chess board, the pawns closer to the center on a new game are better than the pawns closer to the sides, purely because they hold a more tactically important position. That is the only property differentiating the pawns and yet you can still say 1 is better than the other even if they are identical in all other aspects. Good luck balancing the classes. 1 will always be better than the other, even if it is just due to something like faster animation times.
Thats why proper class balance need to be done so everybody gets to play. The 1 healer, 1 tank and 3 dps are meant to be a thing. There are 2 healer class ( dc & op), 2 tank class (op & gf) and 5 dps class (cw,sw, hr, tr, gwf) in this game so i say the developer pretty much nail it with that in mind. That 2dc meta is just something people found out that tip off the balance. If the developer ever able to balance it back to that point of 1 healer, 1 tank 3 dps thing, all they need to to is to balance out the dps class so the perfomance disparity is not too big and make sure content is doable with any dps filled in. That would be much better than the current 2 dc meta thing. The current 2 dc meta thing is a problem and not a solution.
Also i m not being selective with my memory. Its how i get in party in PE back in mod 5 and not forum.
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micky1p00Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,594Arc User
It doesn't leave so many classes out of the game. There are 4 distinct unique classes in the current meta. In the mod 5 meta, there was 1 class and 1 class only. Whether or not 3 of those 4 classes are support classes is not relevant, because if there was a 1 tank, 2 dc, 2 dps meta, then inevitably, 1 tank would be preferred over the other and so the other tank would feel left out. That is simply because at a most fundamental level, there will always be 1 tank class that is more efficient than another. Furthermore, if you are choosing dps purely based off their dps, there will always be 1 preferred dps class for the meta and so that 2 dc, 2 dps, 1 tank meta is likely to only feature 3 unique classes, not 4. The only imbalance in the 2 dc meta is the fact that there are 2 dcs and that is it. We have had far more imbalanced metas in the past.
Whether or not you could pug and finish in mo 5 was not really important, that was solely because the game was so easy at that point that even the worst players in the game could finish stuff. Was lfg asking for a specific party composition? Yes. What was the party composition? 5 CW. And that was your mod 5 meta, stacking 5 of 1 class. It isn't even possible to have a worse meta than that.
Nope. Back then in mod 5, I see most people in LFG calling out for tank, dps, healer and stuff. Specific 5 cw party? Frankly i dont remember seeing it and i m sure of it. Else i wont be playing any dungeon without being a cw back then. The only thing i remember thats they call out specifically are gear score. Where as now? Everybody and their gamdma is looking for AC/DO dc, gf buff, OP & gwf. People are getting denied from playing content because of this. That is harmful and i dont see why its healthier than mod 5. In Mod 5, the 5 cw meta u spoke of is not a must therefore i wouldnt even call it a meta as its not practiced widely.
Few things:
Mod 5 was more of a mod 4b, and was IMO a huge mistake in the game planning, and a display of how the planning is to slow to accommodate to the changes. It was mod 5 that was in large responsible to the issues at mod6, but that's offtopic.
At mod 5 anyone and everyone could solo everything. I think I still have some demo files of dps racing etos heals (it was not block-able back then). It was the most boring mod, and when most of the less casual players left. The CW meta rose at mod4? Or even late 3?
It was how many CW you can get, usually 4CW and DC, sometimes 3CW, DC, GF. At first it relayed throwing off stuff, then on timing arcane singularity on draco, meatball, repeat, and later CC was forgotten in favor of just melting stuff with AoE. DC was dropped due to being a mitigation class, and tank was left because it was lazy mode when draco didn't spin. If mount Olympus had it's own mount Olympus CW were sitting at the top of it back then.
Having a 'fotm' and 'meta' doesn't mean all the rest immediately stop playing (unless you only rely on /lfg). It means it's the most wanted composition and most likely to be successful. Getting into a dungeon on non-CW is not a contradiction that that what people wanted and was the fastest. 5CW is somewhat extreme, but 3 +dc+gf was more than standard. And believe me I know, I play that class that was only wanted for campfire skipping.. I remember..
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thefabricantMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 5,248Arc User
It doesn't leave so many classes out of the game. There are 4 distinct unique classes in the current meta. In the mod 5 meta, there was 1 class and 1 class only. Whether or not 3 of those 4 classes are support classes is not relevant, because if there was a 1 tank, 2 dc, 2 dps meta, then inevitably, 1 tank would be preferred over the other and so the other tank would feel left out. That is simply because at a most fundamental level, there will always be 1 tank class that is more efficient than another. Furthermore, if you are choosing dps purely based off their dps, there will always be 1 preferred dps class for the meta and so that 2 dc, 2 dps, 1 tank meta is likely to only feature 3 unique classes, not 4. The only imbalance in the 2 dc meta is the fact that there are 2 dcs and that is it. We have had far more imbalanced metas in the past.
Whether or not you could pug and finish in mo 5 was not really important, that was solely because the game was so easy at that point that even the worst players in the game could finish stuff. Was lfg asking for a specific party composition? Yes. What was the party composition? 5 CW. And that was your mod 5 meta, stacking 5 of 1 class. It isn't even possible to have a worse meta than that.
Nope. Back then in mod 5, I see most people in LFG calling out for tank, dps, healer and stuff. Specific 5 cw party? Frankly i dont remember seeing it and i m sure of it. Else i wont be playing any dungeon without being a cw back then. The only thing i remember thats they call out specifically are gear score. Where as now? Everybody and their gamdma is looking for AC/DO dc, gf buff, OP & gwf. Why? dungeon got difficult? or because that combination outperform all? maybe both? Thats is why i say mod 5 class balance is healthier than the current one. People still able to play the content with the class they pick in mod 5.
You can be as selective as you like with your memory and it doesn't make what I am saying any less true. See that search button on the top right hand side of the forums? Type into it "nerf CW" or, "5 CW party" and see what comes up. You will see threads like this, this and this. In mod 5 I can very clearly remember, "lf4m CWs 17k+" being the lfg norm for CN and other dungeons and people saying otherwise either didn't play back then, or were living under a rock.
Lets say just to make you happy they nerfed GF, OP and DC and now a 3 dps, 1 healer, 1 tank meta was the thing. I will bet those 3 dps will all be 1 class and now you will have a meta with 5 classes complaining about not having a spot rather than 4 classes complaining. Why? Simply because 1 tank will be better than the other, so that tank will be preferred. 1 healer will be better than the other, so that healer will be preferred and 1 dps will be better than the others, so that dps will be preferred. Furthermore, if you remove all party buffs then the very moment a tank or healer is no longer required that slot will be replaced by that dps class which is better than the rest. Give it enough time and you are back to a 5 dps meta.
So yes, I will very clearly state that this is 1 of the better meta's we have had, it is not a rainbow meta, but its closer than we have been many times in the past. And to anyone who thinks they can balance the classes so that all classes are equally good I will say this: I can argue that on a chess board, the pawns closer to the center on a new game are better than the pawns closer to the sides, purely because they hold a more tactically important position. That is the only property differentiating the pawns and yet you can still say 1 is better than the other even if they are identical in all other aspects. Good luck balancing the classes. 1 will always be better than the other, even if it is just due to something like faster animation times.
Thats why proper class balance need to be done so everybody gets to play. The 1 healer, 1 tank and 3 dps are meant to be a thing. There are 2 healer class ( dc & op), 2 tank class (op & gf) and 5 dps class (cw,sw, hr, tr, gwf) in this game so i say the developer pretty much nail it with that in mind. That 2dc meta is just something people found out that tip off the balance. If the developer ever able to balance it back to that point of 1 healer, 1 tank 3 dps thing, all they need to to is to balance out the dps class so the perfomance disparity is not too big and make sure content is doable with any dps filled in. That would be much better than the current 2 dc meta thing. The current 2 dc meta thing is a problem and not a solution.
Also i m not being selective with my memory. Its how i get in party in PE back in mod 5 and not forum.
Ok, since you are so clever I will quite clearly say this:
I will quite clearly admit I cannot balance the classes and I don't think anyone else (including the devs) can do it either.
Since you are so smart though why don't you do it. Tell me exactly what you would do going class by class. You give me any situation with any group of classes that each have whatever abilities, I will tear those classes apart, tell you what is the best party composition and I guarantee you within a month lfg will be asking for it. Its easy to say, "just balance the classes" and in practise it isn't possible. Whatever your proposed class changes are, they are probably going to make it so 1 dps class is clearly superior to the others (so we have 3x 1 dps) and then 1 tank and 1 healer is superior to the others. Then we have 5 classes getting left out.
I offered 2 solutions earlier in the thread, neither of which involve balancing classes, but here is a 3rd which would also work. Provide a "rainbow synergy bonus" whereby for every different class in the party everyone gains say a passive 20% increased damage bonus. This encourages running multiple different classes to gain the buff rather than stacking classes. You would then need to remove buffs from every single class in the game to not imbalance things somewhat (maybe leave a 20% buff or so on support classes so there is a reason to take them). This will ensure a rainbow party meta, but you will still have 5 classes being chosen and 3 left out, so you would need something else to ensure that in some cases, some of those other 3 are better than the others.
There are 2 "solutions" to the problem that I see and neither of them involve "balancing" the classes. They just involve accepting that classes will always be imbalanced and designing around that.
Solution 1)
Once every 3 months or so deliberately nerfing some classes and buffing others, specifically deliberately choosing which classes are meta and which ones aren't.
Solution 2)
Engineer classes to be good at very specific things and then make content designed only to be beat by that thing.
Provide a "rainbow synergy bonus" whereby for every different class in the party everyone gains say a passive 20% increased damage bonus. This encourages running multiple different classes to gain the buff rather than stacking classes. You would then need to remove buffs from every single class in the game to not imbalance things somewhat (maybe leave a 20% buff or so on support classes so there is a reason to take them).
Accepting the class imbalance is definitely not the answer.
In S1 and the third the imbalance is still there, just artificially/temporarily suspended.
In S2 it reinforces class imbalance. If content could be tackled multiple ways then more classes would be viable and even if there is still a "meta" groups could still run it if they choose though other groups that do not could still run and complete the content.
Granted there still needs to be class balance implemented...
When groups double up on tanks/DC's it removes those classes from the pool to form other groups, in other words if groups ran with 1 tank/1 DC then another tank and DC would be available for another group.
GWF's are considered to be OP by a number of players period. Just because a different group setup can run content faster doesn't mean that GWF's are not OP. GWF's aren't necessarily the problem, more so it's the attitude that a lot of them have thinking that they are doing all their DPS themselves. Pretty much the only time GWF's don't shine is one on one (no DC/Tank buffs), their DPS often drops like a rock. Ask a GWF to 2 man IG, GWD, VT, etc. with a DPS, a number of them will decline because they know what time it is without those buffs and no tank to hold aggro while they swing...
Since you are so smart though why don't you do it.
- Reduce the DPS granted from power for non-DPS classes (this will take tanks out of the "bridged" position between tank and DPS) and open a spot in groups. - The 2 DC nerf is already on the books and will open a spot in groups (2 spots total). - GWF's would still need a nerf (they easily double, triple or more the DPS of other DPS classes, not stating that they shouldn't be able to do more DPS though by such margins as they currently do is quite excessive). - Introduce "random" class specific content where different classes can affect the flow of the content. - When class balance/more class balance is achieved THEN things like drop rates could be adjusted. Adjusting drop rates without/before adjusting class balance would mean that the "meta" groups have that much more opportunity for drops than other groups that struggle to even get into content. With class specific/alternate routes in content non-meta groups/classes can get their shine.
For instance: - a TR could pick a lock that leads to an alternative route that may help/harm the group. - a HR could use their bow to hit a distant "switch" that may help/harm the group. - a DC could cover the party in a shield (like Linu does in the chasm) to help them get through an area that would otherwise wipe the group. - a CW could teleport through a wall that leads to something that may help/harm the group. - a OP/GF could tank groups of mobs/a boss to the point where other group members are "out of combat" and can go around hitting switches/moving objects, etc. that play into the mechanics of the fight (since for the most part players can't interact with things while in combat). - a SW could shadow slip through mobs/high damage fields to something that may help/harm the group. - a GWF could... hmm, don't know something class specific that a piece of content could be tailored to them for, they do so much already LOL (joke).
The above could be "random" events in content, Tomb of the Nine Gods hints at this with random puzzles, the difference being they are not class specific/can't be solved different ways by different classes. At a particular part(s) of content "randomly" if a particular class is present a quick cutscene focusing on them could play letting everyone know there is something they could do/interact with to possibly help or harm the group. It can be included that multiple classes could "team up" to open/access alternative routes in content, the possibilities are wide open.
ALL Rights Reserved for any and all suggestions, ideas, etc. from this user.
“There are changes that can be made that don’t require coding...” - TriNitY "No amount of coding will change human behavior" - TriNitY
1) Don't even see why the whole, "reduce damage given by x stat" is necessary for support classes. Support classes are building for damage because there is nothing else to build for. Build for damage reduction? Nope, buffs cap DR easily. With the exception of power stacking on DC and OP, there is no way to build your char to improve your buff potential in any meaningful way, so supports build for dps. Build for healing? May as well just build for dps since the stats that modify healing also modify dps.
2) GWF doesn't double or triple the dps of any class unless you are counting DC and OP.
3) Never going to happen. Takes far too much development resources to make all that stuff and guess what, it won't solve the problem. 1 of the routes in a dungeon will be faster than all the others, people will just pick the class that solves that particular route the fastest and the meta will simply be, "that dungeon with that class." If the routes are selected at random, it doesn't solve the problem either. People will still take the class that can do the fastest route and hope to get it, because it will be faster than hoping you get any of the other routes.
In both of my solutions, there is no class balance and I admit that up front. The difference is, in mine, each class takes a turn being the unbalanced one so overall there is a "net balance." In your example, there is still 1 clear winner and there is no balance. Anyone who thinks they can achieve a situation where all classes are equal for every piece of content is deluding themselves unless their solution involves deleting 7 classes from the game, at which point people will start complaining that the different ways of building 1 class are unbalanced in relation to each other.
5 CWs party was the norm in mod2.I still remember the lfg back then ,and I had a very good friend a Cw which would ask all the time his party to take me and go 1 tank 4 DPS-CWs.
This situation led to the GF complete rework in late mod2 ,early mod3.
From mod3 ,you could finish any content with any combination.DCs were not considered mandatory .
As for which Striker class is Op ,and the counter argument ,"hey the fastest run was not with GWF" ,I say that argument is poor. In the same group ,a Sw would shine aswell.Any class really.You cannot make an argument ,based on one run or two,rather on the dozens of runs that happen in our server.And these runs 80% of the time are GWFs as primary strikers,15% HRs and 5 % are TRs ,mostly pvp TRs with a pve loadout that go with pvp based parties. GFs are not asked for DPS in our server,and there is a reason for that: They underperform for 95% of the times . GWf is the sure bet.
I have nothing against DCs ,but their counterargument is a little bit racist ." hey with that changes DO was made viable!You want DO not to be viable again? " Most NW Classes trees and paragons are not viable.It is not only the DCs. GWfs (Instigator/Sent) HR (archery) TR (scoundrel/WK) Gf(tact/Prot) Dev OP (light /bulwark) ,I dont play the other classes but i am sure SWs dont shine in every paragon/tree.Quite certain they dont shine at all DCs cannot be the exclusion from the rume.Especially when the double DCs phenomenon creates additional problems.
2.Remove the hidden daggers buff from GWFs,buff all their encounters 20% as a compensation (except IBS)
3.Work the debuffs same way with the buffs.Add harder diminishing returns.
4.Fix Op templar's wrath ,to not affect allies and gain temp hp from allies.
5.Minor changes to any class that seems to create a problem (Gf: KC example). Fix companions effect that are OP. (bard) Fix the ambush drake ability and nerf it now before its calendar sale comes.20% is too much.in 25 days the whole server will run with Drakes.please!
6.Reduce the weapon damage for SKT/RD and Chult weapon.The increase from the previous primer set was too big.
7.Stop creating dungeons with a DPS meter. band aid fixes : reduce 50% the HP from the Souls in 3rd boss in ToNG. Stop creating unavoidable damage mechanisms.We have suffered enough of the geas bug of the Dcs and the ever broken OP dailies. Dont punish the rest of the classes cause two-three abilities if 2 classes overperform.Fix them,dont make raids with unavoidable damage. Dont reward the broken gameplay (2 DCs) ,reward the player that will play its class right with no mistake and it will finish the raid/dungeon even after 1 or 2 hours.
There will allways be a "meta" , but the current one is hard to take (2xtank 2xDC), mod 5 was far more "balanced" in my memory than nower days. In other words , the meta was not that present as it is in mod 12b, like 100% buffruns and only one spot for a pure striker class. And ther was space for controler as well. GWF, TR, Hunter, SW, CW, dsp GF, DO-DC even an OP, all those player could fit that one spot of a striker. All what those guys do is wait (except the last 3 classes), a lot already gave up. All I can do is pick another class than GWF as striker to get one of those friends or player inside endcontent, but according to the actual design of that dungeons, I have to chose the buff party, otherwise I get insulted or player simply leave. Sure, setups like OP-DC-striker-2x buffer/dps are optional but in the end you risk to fail or at least spend a lot "extratime". In former mods dungeons were solvable in considerable time, today you won´t step inside endcontent without megabuffs. And that´s what actually leads indeed to a situation making some classes or player "stop playing", not because they are bored of a meta but because they simply don´t get access with their class. That´s reality outside the world (or universe) of some elite player
2.Remove the hidden daggers buff from GWFs,buff all their encounters 20% as a compensation (except IBS)
Make it by 40%, since R4 Daggers is a 40% damage buff.
Actually, consider doing a general trend like that for GWF as a whole.
Since GWF's base damage is the lowest in the game, they need to rely on a ton of sell buffs to deal any damage. If you moved some of their self buff damage to their base, it might actually be a step towards fixing the GWF single path syndrome.
Fix companions effect that are OP. (bard) Fix the ambush drake ability and nerf it now before its calendar sale comes.20% is too much.in 25 days the whole server will run with Drakes.please!
Neither of these companions are problematic.
Ambush Drake's debuff has a poor uptime (50% of the time). If you aren't timing your attacks to when the debuff appear (which is often), you don't make use of the debuff. It's not even good as a striker companion, as it barely procs the Protector's Friendship Camaraderie insignias.
Harper Bard is overhyped. Power buff is not worth much in terms of DPS increase and the debuff only triggers when enemy HP is so low that they're practically dead. Besides, the debuff numerical % (7%) is literally inferior to the sword trio companions.
Actually GWF is a big debuffer on top as well (selfish by sure), somthing like >70% debuff towards mobs if I remeber correctly. And yes GWF needs to deal high dps (no groupbuffs), but actually the the way AoC and other procs/buffs work it´s a bit too much imo. And no GWF is not 2x more dps mostly in focus-dps then other classes, except SW maybe, if he refuses to run bugged Brood. What most already know, GF is the one that can outshine everyone by far >2x (maybe 0.1% of all GF´s are capabel to do so, or 0,11%) Concering Aoe GWF is king of the hill but who cares. Anyway GWF is not the core problem, only a symptom
"Come on man, buff all encounters that we don't use by 20% and remove the 40% buff on a class that most of its damage comes from at wills?"
I do believe that DPS of GWF class needs some adjustment down.The main cultprint for that is hideen daggers. I believe -40% damage would be too much , but -20% damage would be ok. Also GWfs could slot other powers than Hiden Daggers ,and have more variety in their gameplay.
As Kweasa had said years before ."How do you fix a single nail going far than the others out.You put the rest out aswell or you hit it with the hammer to be equal with the others."
That is my personal opinon.I think the difference of DPS between a GWF and the next best class striker (HR) is around 20-50%. sadly I do not own a competitive HR ,and it was never done an experiment of same party ,one HR and one GWf in same party,to see the difference. Or one party to take a HR do an FBI run,and then take a GWF.toNG does not count ,cause the curse unbalances everything.
"Since GWF's base damage is the lowest in the game"
You mean weapon damage? encounter's damage?
"Make it by 40%, since R4 Daggers is a 40% damage buff."
I dont want GWFs to be in same DPS spot.I want their DPS output reduced.A 40% buff increases would lead probably to Take Down builds ,and in the end ,little difference.
According to wiki,it shouldn't. Bite has 1,5 sec ICD, defense debuff has 3 secs length. even if it is reversed somehow, still we have a problem. 2 drakes in a party,problem solved. What happens if a party has 5 drakes? Compare this to 5 CArtists/Mercenaries/etc
Harper Bard sometimes does not work as wai.At least from what i heard. The argument "when enemy HP is so low that they're practically dead" does not count cause the meta design of the game revolves around paper adds,hard bosses.And in bosses Harper bard shines. harper is not a problem,too few around,I brough him as an example. Drake will become a problem though.
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thefabricantMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 5,248Arc User
According to wiki,it shouldn't. Bite has 1,5 sec ICD, defense debuff has 3 secs length. even if it is reversed somehow, still we have a problem. 2 drakes in a party,problem solved. What happens if a party has 5 drakes? Compare this to 5 CArtists/Mercenaries/etc
Harper Bard sometimes does not work as wai.At least from what i heard. The argument "when enemy HP is so low that they're practically dead" does not count cause the meta design of the game revolves around paper adds,hard bosses.And in bosses Harper bard shines. harper is not a problem,too few around,I brough him as an example. Drake will become a problem though.
@trzebiat#2067 I’ve tried Ambush Drake only at dummies, so I’m not very expert. Anyway I’d say that Ambush Drake is better than Sellsword at proccing bondings, but it doesn’t seem to apply the debuff faster. It starts its rotation with Stealth, that has a very long animation, so it usually applies the debuff after 5-6 seconds. If the Sellsword is close when you start the fight, she applies it in 3-5 seconds. If they are far from the enemy, Ambush Drake procs bondings faster but not the debuff, because it tends to repeat the Stealth attack until it is close to the target. On the other side, Sellsword often gets stuck in imaginary obstacles (for example when I solo eCC I don't use her because for some reason she can't get out of the red fire circles and she never procs bondings), while probably Ambush Drake doesn't. In boss fights Dancing Shield is better than Ambush Drake, but since it has defensive stats it must be used by a character that does not want to deal any damage (I’d use it on my ACDC). Dancing Shield can have close to 100% debuff uptime if you equip it with silvery enchantments. You can’t increase Ambush Drake debuff instead, because it keeps alternating between Stealth and Septic Bite regardless of its recovery.
Feel free to nerf useless pets that I won't use anyhow, even if I owned them :P And the debuff does have a 50% uptime btw, but if you want to have it nerfed it won't change the meta in any way, its like nerfing regeneration. Look closely in the videos with 1 shot orcus etc, count how many harper bards there are or ambush drakes and then come to the logical conclusion about those pets. It isn't like I can't afford 1, its just not bis.
^^^ If they are so useless then ,you will not bother. And they are so few in the server,that none will complain.So better safe than sorry.
" It isn't like I can't afford 1, its just not bis. "
I dont care if it is bis.you dont get it.Stop applying performance meters that only 0.5% of the server can reach. drake might be bis or not.I dont know. What I say is that ,overall,a widely spead companion as the Drake will be in 25 days,it will add t o the general power creep. You and your friends might not use it,but many will. And for this game to thrive and live,WE DONT NEED ANY MORE POWER CREEP.
Its a tricky situation that stems a lot from power creep. Everyone builds towards more damage because its easy to hit DR cap, 100% Crit, Arm pen cap and debuff cap. They dont have to make choices. DPS classes dont bother stacking any sort of defense because lifesteal is unreliable and the 1 shot mechanics in dungeons mean if you get hit most of the time you die. 1 shot mechanics being the advent of the bubbly pally meta. Now more and more mobs are immune to control so there is less of a reason for CW and Trappers. That problem stems from mod 5 and the 5 CW parties. Though I hesitate to say that 5 CW parties were meta.
The answer in my mind is to just buff the other paragon paths to make them more viable. If we are going to embrace power creep we might as well have fun with it. Damnation SW's absolutely didnt need that nerf. For a minute there you would see every flavor of SW. I cant tell you the last time I've seen anyone use a Dam spec. Some specs of other classes havent been used in years. Anyone know anyone running an Archery build for HR? If Templocks and healdins buffed better maybe people would drop a DC for one.
They should have separate pvp and pve skills so we can finally get a TR that isnt HAMSTER.
1) Don't even see why the whole, "reduce damage given by x stat" is necessary for support classes.
2) GWF doesn't double or triple the dps of any class unless you are counting DC and OP.
3) Never going to happen. Takes far too much development resources to make all that stuff and guess what, it won't solve the problem. 1 of the routes in a dungeon will be faster than all the others, people will just pick the class that solves that particular route the fastest and the meta will simply be, "that dungeon with that class." If the routes are selected at random, it doesn't solve the problem either. People will still take the class that can do the fastest route and hope to get it, because it will be faster than hoping you get any of the other routes.
In both of my solutions, there is no class balance and I admit that up front. The difference is, in mine, each class takes a turn being the unbalanced one so overall there is a "net balance." In your example, there is still 1 clear winner and there is no balance. Anyone who thinks they can achieve a situation where all classes are equal for every piece of content is deluding themselves
@thefabricant it's funny how you are molding a suggestion made by someone else into what YOU want it to be just so you can argue against it lol.
The prerequisites to the suggested OR (optional route) system are pretty much already in the game. As previously stated with Tomb of the Nine Gods there are already random puzzles and instead of or in addition to what's already in the coding add in a class(s) check. Currently if a puzzle is failed there are consequences such as being dropped into a different part of the dungeon, this could be expanded upon, if x class is present during the check and matches, y OR is available, if x and y classes are available during the check and matches z OR is available.
Whether a particular "route" could/would be faster is not the point, the ability for non-meta groups to be able to run and complete content more efficiently without having to spend so much time just trying to get the group full to start the content in the first place is.
Also with the OR's being random whether any is present in the first place let alone what class(s) it would require there would be no way to plan ahead what classes to bring so having 5 out of 8 classes present would grant more optional route availability than 4 of the 8 classes especially if two (or more) different classes are required for the OR(s). If there is a meta where classes are stacked/multiple support classes required then that means that those groups will have even less chances to be able to utilize the OR's which is ok, you make your bed, you lay in it.
OR's would have to be random, if not, players being players would form groups for the fastest route. It could be set a number of ways, it could even be where a non-stacked group (1 Tank, 1 DC, 3 DPS) gets OR availability and a stacked group doesn't. "Meta" groups can still burn through the content without OR's (if possible) and non-Meta groups can have availability to complete content in times that are comparable.
Again, currently how the system works tanks can out DPS actual DPS classes with little to no penalty. Simply reducing the amount of DPS from power would balance two classes (OP/GF)(it wouldn't be as beneficial to bring a second tank vs an actual DPS class), everything else that power buffs would remain the same and the looming double DC nerf will bring up the other end of the scale
Who wants to put classes that they have worked on to the side until their "time to shine month" comes up and then put them back to the side when it is over? Why not be able to shine at any given time with being forced into a meta group? All classes/DPS classes don't have to perform equally, just don't have it to where particular classes are favored and others ousted simply because of the disparity between them.
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“There are changes that can be made that don’t require coding...” - TriNitY "No amount of coding will change human behavior" - TriNitY
I didn't change what you said, I firstly showed how you were wrong in your first assumption and secondly took your argument 1 logical step further and showed how it was still flawed. Expanding upon this hasn't made your argument any better either, in fact, it has only made it worse. If a route provided by taking 1 specific class is faster than another, then that class will ALWAYS be taken, since there is no way another class can offer a faster route. Furthermore, none of what you have said at any point has resulted in balanced classes, if anything, it has resulted in even more imbalanced parties since some classes become forced must takes. Not only that, but designing 8 potential routes for each dungeon results in 8x as much wasted dev time and is something that, guess what, isn't going to happen.
Class balance is much less important than people thing. Not only it's impossible to achieve or maintain pure balance, it is also not desirable imho. What is desirable, and what we should want, are frequent changes. Instead of trying to achieve the impossible and balance all classes, you can do interesting things without fear of breaking things long term, cuz you know you're going to change it and balance around very soon. Of course, within certain limits.
The only thing that needs to be changed is powersharing in general and AC DC (some might argue for changing power, though I have no idea why when power is not the problem), everything else is fine (not balanced! but fine, that means it doesn't break the game). And really the only problem with current powersharing (besides it being limited to 2 classes) is the extremely painful state of the community (speaking for PS4) where people refuse to run anything unless they have 2DCs behind their HAMSTER. (to be clear I'm not saying you need 2DCs, I'm saying the community has an impression you need it and refuse to run without it)
And really the only problem with current powersharing (besides it being limited to 2 classes) is the extremely painful state of the community (speaking for PS4) where people refuse to run anything unless they have 2DCs behind their HAMSTER. (to be clear I'm not saying you need 2DCs, I'm saying the community has an impression you need it and refuse to run without it)
Because the average player can´t succeed outside a max buff group. Join some of those "lfm-tong-last-boss groups" , press x and witness how many time some player spend inside that dungeon, horrible regarding the loot. Wait for mod 12b or when is bonding nerf heading towards your platform? It will become worse by sure.
Anyway in terms of buffs a DO should be superior vs an AC-DC in general, except AC-DC runs...>60k basepower- no clue how much exactly, but a lot, since DO got that 1.2 autbuff and spams HG all time, same as he deals far more dps and can debuff more effective since he gains more devinity, so more encounter spamming, debuffing etc. Only an AC-DC that is able to spam double daily would spend more dps-buffs imo, beside AA is a great tool to negate bossmechanics in NWO.
Like u said u will still play those class cause its fun, but there wont be fun when u need to work extra effort just to play the content compare to other classes. Some class could access end game content due to their class is on demand, while other depends on luck & pity from the community to access the content. Sometime it seem impossible and frustrating for them that it seem playing other game is much better.
Seriously mate, I own a tactician GF and played him as tactician pre loadouts. Do you know what it means? Have you ever tried to kill mobs in IWD, SoMI or River District with pure tactician guardian fighter? Belive me, I know what is extra effort to play content other classes do with one hand and eyes closed.
As the game is now - I don't find it needs any more balancing/nerfing. The only thing I would change now is SW, cause this is the only class that is underperforming a little. All other classes are viable and able to play all the content.
You guys don't want to balance this game, you guys want your class to be "first choice" in the picking order to ToNG/FBI/MSP runs. You are blaming the meta, but yet you don't want to make your own goddamn que just spamming for 3 hours "LFG" instead of "LFM".
I would also like to share that my fastest tong run was 23mins and we had SW as only dps. Where's your logic now?
Also, please guys. Define what is balancing to you? Cause I find this game pretty much balanced cause every class can play every piece of content.
Don't blame balance when people are just going the easy way, cause they want to finish dungeon in the fastest possible way. You guys think that nerfing will fix this issue? Sure, with this setup. Then there will be new setup with new classes that will be performing best in terms of speedrunning.
This MMO is based on D&D but it is still a MMO. We have tanks, healers, and damage dealers (DPS). The game website even calls out Controller/Utility as a role yet in game when you play your character there is no role listed for Controller/Utility.
The website has the following classes listed as a Defender GWF, GF and OP - these are the Defender/tanking classes yet a GWF that is setup to tank is still considered a Striker/Damage Dealer. DC, OP, and SW - these are the Leader/Healing classes yet a SW cannot play as a Leader but is always a Striker/Damage Dealer. CW, TR, HR, DC, and GF are listed as Utility/Controller but there is no such role in the game. Striker: HR, GWF, TR, and SW
Every class has two roles that can be played but only the OP is able to q as both of its roles.
This is one issue within the game that should be fixed.
The other issue is the imbalance between each class with buffing and damage. I remember when the GF was the go to tank due to how ITF worked off the DR and not a simple flate buff, this made GF buffing tanks a thing but once ITF was adjusted GF was replaced by OP tanks and OP tanks became the new Meta for tanks.
Two DCs have been a meta for a while but it was two AC/DC until the DO DC was adjusted and now it is one of each type of DC.
Just updating each class to play two roles and balancing out each class is close to a full revamp to the game. A game revamp is needed to provide balance and more options for us as players.
What about forcing rainbow in PvE dungeons? That would "solve" some of the class balance and meta issues we seen over the years. Stacking classes, leaving others out. Rainbow groups would atleast minimize the problem somewhat and thats an super easy fix that wouldnt take months of coding.
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putzboy78Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,950Arc User
This MMO is based on D&D but it is still a MMO. We have tanks, healers, and damage dealers (DPS). The game website even calls out Controller/Utility as a role yet in game when you play your character there is no role listed for Controller/Utility.
The website has the following classes listed as a Defender GWF, GF and OP - these are the Defender/tanking classes yet a GWF that is setup to tank is still considered a Striker/Damage Dealer. DC, OP, and SW - these are the Leader/Healing classes yet a SW cannot play as a Leader but is always a Striker/Damage Dealer. CW, TR, HR, DC, and GF are listed as Utility/Controller but there is no such role in the game. Striker: HR, GWF, TR, and SW
Every class has two roles that can be played but only the OP is able to q as both of its roles.
This is one issue within the game that should be fixed.
The other issue is the imbalance between each class with buffing and damage. I remember when the GF was the go to tank due to how ITF worked off the DR and not a simple flate buff, this made GF buffing tanks a thing but once ITF was adjusted GF was replaced by OP tanks and OP tanks became the new Meta for tanks.
Two DCs have been a meta for a while but it was two AC/DC until the DO DC was adjusted and now it is one of each type of DC.
Just updating each class to play two roles and balancing out each class is close to a full revamp to the game. A game revamp is needed to provide balance and more options for us as players.
remember when the meta was to have as many DCs as possible in your party
Got it. Some do really think this game is balanced, taking two tanks and two DC's into dungeons 24/7 and the fifth spot is left to be filled by any of the 8 classes. Totally agree...
Like u said u will still play those class cause its fun, but there wont be fun when u need to work extra effort just to play the content compare to other classes. Some class could access end game content due to their class is on demand, while other depends on luck & pity from the community to access the content. Sometime it seem impossible and frustrating for them that it seem playing other game is much better.
Seriously mate, I own a tactician GF and played him as tactician pre loadouts. Do you know what it means? Have you ever tried to kill mobs in IWD, SoMI or River District with pure tactician guardian fighter? Belive me, I know what is extra effort to play content other classes do with one hand and eyes closed.
As the game is now - I don't find it needs any more balancing/nerfing. The only thing I would change now is SW, cause this is the only class that is underperforming a little. All other classes are viable and able to play all the content.
You guys don't want to balance this game, you guys want your class to be "first choice" in the picking order to ToNG/FBI/MSP runs. You are blaming the meta, but yet you don't want to make your own goddamn que just spamming for 3 hours "LFG" instead of "LFM".
I would also like to share that my fastest tong run was 23mins and we had SW as only dps. Where's your logic now?
Also, please guys. Define what is balancing to you? Cause I find this game pretty much balanced cause every class can play every piece of content.
Don't blame balance when people are just going the easy way, cause they want to finish dungeon in the fastest possible way. You guys think that nerfing will fix this issue? Sure, with this setup. Then there will be new setup with new classes that will be performing best in terms of speedrunning.
I own a tactitian GF myself, but having 4 loadouts I never would even think about doing dailies or content that way... I could even unslot my weapon on top. No I switch to my SM conqueror loadouts and melt content. Same as DC, i chose rightous not Faithfull. This argument is invalid running several loadouts since mod..10?
This MMO is based on D&D but it is still a MMO. We have tanks, healers, and damage dealers (DPS). The game website even calls out Controller/Utility as a role yet in game when you play your character there is no role listed for Controller/Utility.
The website has the following classes listed as a Defender GWF, GF and OP - these are the Defender/tanking classes yet a GWF that is setup to tank is still considered a Striker/Damage Dealer. DC, OP, and SW - these are the Leader/Healing classes yet a SW cannot play as a Leader but is always a Striker/Damage Dealer. CW, TR, HR, DC, and GF are listed as Utility/Controller but there is no such role in the game. Striker: HR, GWF, TR, and SW
Every class has two roles that can be played but only the OP is able to q as both of its roles.
This is one issue within the game that should be fixed.
The other issue is the imbalance between each class with buffing and damage. I remember when the GF was the go to tank due to how ITF worked off the DR and not a simple flate buff, this made GF buffing tanks a thing but once ITF was adjusted GF was replaced by OP tanks and OP tanks became the new Meta for tanks.
Two DCs have been a meta for a while but it was two AC/DC until the DO DC was adjusted and now it is one of each type of DC.
Just updating each class to play two roles and balancing out each class is close to a full revamp to the game. A game revamp is needed to provide balance and more options for us as players.
remember when the meta was to have as many DCs as possible in your party
Mod 9 wasn't it, as you could stack power especially with bonding. This game is like other MMOs where players find ways to stack one thing or another to make runs quicker or find the bug or glitch that makes content a breeze.
DCUO, ESO, WOW, and NW are no different in that regard where players abuse the system to their benefit. I do know that at one point DCUO developers got irked by the abuse and removed top end gear from players that abused things and some were banned. It is why I tread with caution and simply pug content for the most part in NW. I did not lose my gear in DCUO but a few of my friends were ban for such behavior.
I know that many do not like being forced to run with 1-1-3 but if the devs removed private q it would solve the double DC issue immediately and they could state that it is a short term solution until they can update the game to provide more options for buffers, balance the damage dealers and support role classes in the game.
The thing is though that short term fix would probably be long term as this game has stacking issues for buff and debuff and every game I have played the devs always run into issues when trying to balance out classes.
So even though I support the idea of removing private q at the same time I also do not want it to go as I do runs on my support roles where I run with 4 damage dealers as you really do not need a tank in T1 or T2 content until you hit CN.
Reducing the effectiveness of Lifesteal while in a group would encourage healers healing.
Outside of those statements you are pretty much golden LOL
The remove private queue statement was left out because seemingly after the 2 DC nerf that is on the horizon two tanks (OP + GF) will be less ideal (maybe 2 OP's in a 5 person group, though overall from discussions various players two tanks and 1 DC doesn't seem good).
Hell scrolls alone discourage healing (lol), more than life steal which is a supplementary stat (if it discourages healing to a considerable degree).
Life steal doesn't keep every class alive indefinitely, sometimes it works well for a while and then when you really need it, you know, doesn't lol.
A revamp sounds great, the devil is in the details though.
The two roles per class is good in theory though the CW, TR, HR and SW classes currently don't really have a second role that they can fill and be effective at. Without major changes it would leave 4 classes stuck in the DPS role. The 2 DC nerf seemingly will free up a tank and DC for more groups.
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“There are changes that can be made that don’t require coding...” - TriNitY "No amount of coding will change human behavior" - TriNitY
The only other MMO I really played other than this was Rifts and it had a pretty neat PUG system. Every dungeon run needed a tank, healer, two DPS, and a Support. Based on your build the system decided what role you could fulfill in the group and this would change if you changed your load out. That’s why I went with a DC in this game, as the Cleric had the most versatility in those roles and the only class I think that could do all roles (though it’s Support build was really just 2nd healer). And it was fun tanking end game dungeons with your thief (surprisingly effective too). That was a cool system and allowed people to play different roles in the dungeon. As for NW, regardless of my build my DC is always assigned the healer role.
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Also i m not being selective with my memory. Its how i get in party in PE back in mod 5 and not forum.
Mod 5 was more of a mod 4b, and was IMO a huge mistake in the game planning, and a display of how the planning is to slow to accommodate to the changes. It was mod 5 that was in large responsible to the issues at mod6, but that's offtopic.
At mod 5 anyone and everyone could solo everything. I think I still have some demo files of dps racing etos heals (it was not block-able back then). It was the most boring mod, and when most of the less casual players left.
The CW meta rose at mod4? Or even late 3?
It was how many CW you can get, usually 4CW and DC, sometimes 3CW, DC, GF. At first it relayed throwing off stuff, then on timing arcane singularity on draco, meatball, repeat, and later CC was forgotten in favor of just melting stuff with AoE. DC was dropped due to being a mitigation class, and tank was left because it was lazy mode when draco didn't spin.
If mount Olympus had it's own mount Olympus CW were sitting at the top of it back then.
Having a 'fotm' and 'meta' doesn't mean all the rest immediately stop playing (unless you only rely on /lfg). It means it's the most wanted composition and most likely to be successful. Getting into a dungeon on non-CW is not a contradiction that that what people wanted and was the fastest. 5CW is somewhat extreme, but 3 +dc+gf was more than standard. And believe me I know, I play that class that was only wanted for campfire skipping.. I remember..
I will quite clearly admit I cannot balance the classes and I don't think anyone else (including the devs) can do it either.
Since you are so smart though why don't you do it. Tell me exactly what you would do going class by class. You give me any situation with any group of classes that each have whatever abilities, I will tear those classes apart, tell you what is the best party composition and I guarantee you within a month lfg will be asking for it. Its easy to say, "just balance the classes" and in practise it isn't possible. Whatever your proposed class changes are, they are probably going to make it so 1 dps class is clearly superior to the others (so we have 3x 1 dps) and then 1 tank and 1 healer is superior to the others. Then we have 5 classes getting left out.
I offered 2 solutions earlier in the thread, neither of which involve balancing classes, but here is a 3rd which would also work. Provide a "rainbow synergy bonus" whereby for every different class in the party everyone gains say a passive 20% increased damage bonus. This encourages running multiple different classes to gain the buff rather than stacking classes. You would then need to remove buffs from every single class in the game to not imbalance things somewhat (maybe leave a 20% buff or so on support classes so there is a reason to take them). This will ensure a rainbow party meta, but you will still have 5 classes being chosen and 3 left out, so you would need something else to ensure that in some cases, some of those other 3 are better than the others.
Life steal doesn't keep every class alive indefinitely, sometimes it works well for a while and then when you really need it, you know, doesn't lol.
Accepting the class imbalance is definitely not the answer.
In S1 and the third the imbalance is still there, just artificially/temporarily suspended.
In S2 it reinforces class imbalance. If content could be tackled multiple ways then more classes would be viable and even if there is still a "meta" groups could still run it if they choose though other groups that do not could still run and complete the content.
Granted there still needs to be class balance implemented...
When groups double up on tanks/DC's it removes those classes from the pool to form other groups, in other words if groups ran with 1 tank/1 DC then another tank and DC would be available for another group.
GWF's are considered to be OP by a number of players period. Just because a different group setup can run content faster doesn't mean that GWF's are not OP. GWF's aren't necessarily the problem, more so it's the attitude that a lot of them have thinking that they are doing all their DPS themselves. Pretty much the only time GWF's don't shine is one on one (no DC/Tank buffs), their DPS often drops like a rock. Ask a GWF to 2 man IG, GWD, VT, etc. with a DPS, a number of them will decline because they know what time it is without those buffs and no tank to hold aggro while they swing... - Reduce the DPS granted from power for non-DPS classes (this will take tanks out of the "bridged" position between tank and DPS) and open a spot in groups.
- The 2 DC nerf is already on the books and will open a spot in groups (2 spots total).
- GWF's would still need a nerf (they easily double, triple or more the DPS of other DPS classes, not stating that they shouldn't be able to do more DPS though by such margins as they currently do is quite excessive).
- Introduce "random" class specific content where different classes can affect the flow of the content.
- When class balance/more class balance is achieved THEN things like drop rates could be adjusted. Adjusting drop rates without/before adjusting class balance would mean that the "meta" groups have that much more opportunity for drops than other groups that struggle to even get into content. With class specific/alternate routes in content non-meta groups/classes can get their shine.
For instance:
- a TR could pick a lock that leads to an alternative route that may help/harm the group.
- a HR could use their bow to hit a distant "switch" that may help/harm the group.
- a DC could cover the party in a shield (like Linu does in the chasm) to help them get through an area that would otherwise wipe the group.
- a CW could teleport through a wall that leads to something that may help/harm the group.
- a OP/GF could tank groups of mobs/a boss to the point where other group members are "out of combat" and can go around hitting switches/moving objects, etc. that play into the mechanics of the fight (since for the most part players can't interact with things while in combat).
- a SW could shadow slip through mobs/high damage fields to something that may help/harm the group.
- a GWF could... hmm, don't know something class specific that a piece of content could be tailored to them for, they do so much already LOL (joke).
The above could be "random" events in content, Tomb of the Nine Gods hints at this with random puzzles, the difference being they are not class specific/can't be solved different ways by different classes. At a particular part(s) of content "randomly" if a particular class is present a quick cutscene focusing on them could play letting everyone know there is something they could do/interact with to possibly help or harm the group. It can be included that multiple classes could "team up" to open/access alternative routes in content, the possibilities are wide open.
“There are changes that can be made that don’t require coding...” - TriNitY
"No amount of coding will change human behavior" - TriNitY
Ongoing Issue: Legitmate Players Banned for Botting (Console) and the Future for "Dedicated" Players
Suggestions: (Implemented) \/\/ Rearrange Character on character Select Screen
2) GWF doesn't double or triple the dps of any class unless you are counting DC and OP.
3) Never going to happen. Takes far too much development resources to make all that stuff and guess what, it won't solve the problem. 1 of the routes in a dungeon will be faster than all the others, people will just pick the class that solves that particular route the fastest and the meta will simply be, "that dungeon with that class." If the routes are selected at random, it doesn't solve the problem either. People will still take the class that can do the fastest route and hope to get it, because it will be faster than hoping you get any of the other routes.
In both of my solutions, there is no class balance and I admit that up front. The difference is, in mine, each class takes a turn being the unbalanced one so overall there is a "net balance." In your example, there is still 1 clear winner and there is no balance. Anyone who thinks they can achieve a situation where all classes are equal for every piece of content is deluding themselves unless their solution involves deleting 7 classes from the game, at which point people will start complaining that the different ways of building 1 class are unbalanced in relation to each other.
5 CWs party was the norm in mod2.I still remember the lfg back then ,and I had a very good friend a Cw which would ask all the time his party to take me and go 1 tank 4 DPS-CWs.
This situation led to the GF complete rework in late mod2 ,early mod3.
From mod3 ,you could finish any content with any combination.DCs were not considered mandatory .
As for which Striker class is Op ,and the counter argument ,"hey the fastest run was not with GWF" ,I say that argument is poor.
In the same group ,a Sw would shine aswell.Any class really.You cannot make an argument ,based on one run or two,rather on the dozens of runs that happen in our server.And these runs 80% of the time are GWFs as primary strikers,15% HRs and 5 % are TRs ,mostly pvp TRs with a pve loadout that go with pvp based parties.
GFs are not asked for DPS in our server,and there is a reason for that: They underperform for 95% of the times .
GWf is the sure bet.
What needs to be done to balance the game?
1.Remove the Do changes
https://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter#/discussion/1229314/terrifying-insight-who-moved-my-cheese/p1
I have nothing against DCs ,but their counterargument is a little bit racist ." hey with that changes DO was made viable!You want DO not to be viable again? "
Most NW Classes trees and paragons are not viable.It is not only the DCs.
GWfs (Instigator/Sent) HR (archery) TR (scoundrel/WK) Gf(tact/Prot) Dev OP (light /bulwark) ,I dont play the other classes but i am sure SWs dont shine in every paragon/tree.Quite certain they dont shine at all
DCs cannot be the exclusion from the rume.Especially when the double DCs phenomenon creates additional problems.
2.Remove the hidden daggers buff from GWFs,buff all their encounters 20% as a compensation (except IBS)
3.Work the debuffs same way with the buffs.Add harder diminishing returns.
4.Fix Op templar's wrath ,to not affect allies and gain temp hp from allies.
5.Minor changes to any class that seems to create a problem (Gf: KC example).
Fix companions effect that are OP. (bard)
Fix the ambush drake ability and nerf it now before its calendar sale comes.20% is too much.in 25 days the whole server will run with Drakes.please!
6.Reduce the weapon damage for SKT/RD and Chult weapon.The increase from the previous primer set was too big.
7.Stop creating dungeons with a DPS meter.
band aid fixes : reduce 50% the HP from the Souls in 3rd boss in ToNG.
Stop creating unavoidable damage mechanisms.We have suffered enough of the geas bug of the Dcs and the ever broken OP dailies.
Dont punish the rest of the classes cause two-three abilities if 2 classes overperform.Fix them,dont make raids with unavoidable damage.
Dont reward the broken gameplay (2 DCs) ,reward the player that will play its class right with no mistake and it will finish the raid/dungeon even after 1 or 2 hours.
In other words , the meta was not that present as it is in mod 12b, like 100% buffruns and only one spot for a pure striker class. And ther was space for controler as well.
GWF, TR, Hunter, SW, CW, dsp GF, DO-DC even an OP, all those player could fit that one spot of a striker.
All what those guys do is wait (except the last 3 classes), a lot already gave up.
All I can do is pick another class than GWF as striker to get one of those friends or player inside endcontent, but according to the actual design of that dungeons, I have to chose the buff party, otherwise I get insulted or player simply leave.
Sure, setups like OP-DC-striker-2x buffer/dps are optional but in the end you risk to fail or at least spend a lot "extratime".
In former mods dungeons were solvable in considerable time, today you won´t step inside endcontent without megabuffs.
And that´s what actually leads indeed to a situation making some classes or player "stop playing", not because they are bored of a meta but because they simply don´t get access with their class.
That´s reality outside the world (or universe) of some elite player
Actually, consider doing a general trend like that for GWF as a whole.
Since GWF's base damage is the lowest in the game, they need to rely on a ton of sell buffs to deal any damage. If you moved some of their self buff damage to their base, it might actually be a step towards fixing the GWF single path syndrome.
Neither of these companions are problematic.
Ambush Drake's debuff has a poor uptime (50% of the time). If you aren't timing your attacks to when the debuff appear (which is often), you don't make use of the debuff. It's not even good as a striker companion, as it barely procs the Protector's Friendship Camaraderie insignias.
Harper Bard is overhyped. Power buff is not worth much in terms of DPS increase and the debuff only triggers when enemy HP is so low that they're practically dead. Besides, the debuff numerical % (7%) is literally inferior to the sword trio companions.
And yes GWF needs to deal high dps (no groupbuffs), but actually the the way AoC and other procs/buffs work it´s a bit too much imo.
And no GWF is not 2x more dps mostly in focus-dps then other classes, except SW maybe, if he refuses to run bugged Brood.
What most already know, GF is the one that can outshine everyone by far >2x (maybe 0.1% of all GF´s are capabel to do so, or 0,11%)
Concering Aoe GWF is king of the hill but who cares. Anyway GWF is not the core problem, only a symptom
I do believe that DPS of GWF class needs some adjustment down.The main cultprint for that is hideen daggers.
I believe -40% damage would be too much , but -20% damage would be ok.
Also GWfs could slot other powers than Hiden Daggers ,and have more variety in their gameplay.
As Kweasa had said years before ."How do you fix a single nail going far than the others out.You put the rest out aswell or you hit it with the hammer to be equal with the others."
That is my personal opinon.I think the difference of DPS between a GWF and the next best class striker (HR) is around 20-50%.
sadly I do not own a competitive HR ,and it was never done an experiment of same party ,one HR and one GWf in same party,to see the difference.
Or one party to take a HR do an FBI run,and then take a GWF.toNG does not count ,cause the curse unbalances everything.
"Since GWF's base damage is the lowest in the game"
You mean weapon damage? encounter's damage?
"Make it by 40%, since R4 Daggers is a 40% damage buff."
I dont want GWFs to be in same DPS spot.I want their DPS output reduced.A 40% buff increases would lead probably to Take Down builds ,and in the end ,little difference.
"Ambush Drake's debuff has a poor uptime (50% of the time)"
https://neverwinter.gamepedia.com/Ambush_Drake
According to wiki,it shouldn't.
Bite has 1,5 sec ICD, defense debuff has 3 secs length.
even if it is reversed somehow, still we have a problem.
2 drakes in a party,problem solved.
What happens if a party has 5 drakes? Compare this to 5 CArtists/Mercenaries/etc
Harper Bard sometimes does not work as wai.At least from what i heard.
The argument "when enemy HP is so low that they're practically dead" does not count cause the meta design of the game revolves around paper adds,hard bosses.And in bosses Harper bard shines.
harper is not a problem,too few around,I brough him as an example.
Drake will become a problem though.
If they are so useless then ,you will not bother.
And they are so few in the server,that none will complain.So better safe than sorry.
" It isn't like I can't afford 1, its just not bis. "
I dont care if it is bis.you dont get it.Stop applying performance meters that only 0.5% of the server can reach.
drake might be bis or not.I dont know.
What I say is that ,overall,a widely spead companion as the Drake will be in 25 days,it will add t o the general power creep.
You and your friends might not use it,but many will.
And for this game to thrive and live,WE DONT NEED ANY MORE POWER CREEP.
The answer in my mind is to just buff the other paragon paths to make them more viable. If we are going to embrace power creep we might as well have fun with it. Damnation SW's absolutely didnt need that nerf. For a minute there you would see every flavor of SW. I cant tell you the last time I've seen anyone use a Dam spec. Some specs of other classes havent been used in years. Anyone know anyone running an Archery build for HR? If Templocks and healdins buffed better maybe people would drop a DC for one.
They should have separate pvp and pve skills so we can finally get a TR that isnt HAMSTER.
@thefabricant it's funny how you are molding a suggestion made by someone else into what YOU want it to be just so you can argue against it lol.
The prerequisites to the suggested OR (optional route) system are pretty much already in the game. As previously stated with Tomb of the Nine Gods there are already random puzzles and instead of or in addition to what's already in the coding add in a class(s) check. Currently if a puzzle is failed there are consequences such as being dropped into a different part of the dungeon, this could be expanded upon, if x class is present during the check and matches, y OR is available, if x and y classes are available during the check and matches z OR is available.
Whether a particular "route" could/would be faster is not the point, the ability for non-meta groups to be able to run and complete content more efficiently without having to spend so much time just trying to get the group full to start the content in the first place is.
Also with the OR's being random whether any is present in the first place let alone what class(s) it would require there would be no way to plan ahead what classes to bring so having 5 out of 8 classes present would grant more optional route availability than 4 of the 8 classes especially if two (or more) different classes are required for the OR(s). If there is a meta where classes are stacked/multiple support classes required then that means that those groups will have even less chances to be able to utilize the OR's which is ok, you make your bed, you lay in it.
OR's would have to be random, if not, players being players would form groups for the fastest route. It could be set a number of ways, it could even be where a non-stacked group (1 Tank, 1 DC, 3 DPS) gets OR availability and a stacked group doesn't. "Meta" groups can still burn through the content without OR's (if possible) and non-Meta groups can have availability to complete content in times that are comparable.
Again, currently how the system works tanks can out DPS actual DPS classes with little to no penalty. Simply reducing the amount of DPS from power would balance two classes (OP/GF)(it wouldn't be as beneficial to bring a second tank vs an actual DPS class), everything else that power buffs would remain the same and the looming double DC nerf will bring up the other end of the scale
Who wants to put classes that they have worked on to the side until their "time to shine month" comes up and then put them back to the side when it is over? Why not be able to shine at any given time with being forced into a meta group? All classes/DPS classes don't have to perform equally, just don't have it to where particular classes are favored and others ousted simply because of the disparity between them.
“There are changes that can be made that don’t require coding...” - TriNitY
"No amount of coding will change human behavior" - TriNitY
Ongoing Issue: Legitmate Players Banned for Botting (Console) and the Future for "Dedicated" Players
Suggestions: (Implemented) \/\/ Rearrange Character on character Select Screen
What is desirable, and what we should want, are frequent changes. Instead of trying to achieve the impossible and balance all classes, you can do interesting things without fear of breaking things long term, cuz you know you're going to change it and balance around very soon. Of course, within certain limits.
The only thing that needs to be changed is powersharing in general and AC DC (some might argue for changing power, though I have no idea why when power is not the problem), everything else is fine (not balanced! but fine, that means it doesn't break the game).
And really the only problem with current powersharing (besides it being limited to 2 classes) is the extremely painful state of the community (speaking for PS4) where people refuse to run anything unless they have 2DCs behind their HAMSTER.
(to be clear I'm not saying you need 2DCs, I'm saying the community has an impression you need it and refuse to run without it)
[PS4] Alliance - House Stargaryen
Anyway in terms of buffs a DO should be superior vs an AC-DC in general, except AC-DC runs...>60k basepower- no clue how much exactly, but a lot, since DO got that 1.2 autbuff and spams HG all time, same as he deals far more dps and can debuff more effective since he gains more devinity, so more encounter spamming, debuffing etc.
Only an AC-DC that is able to spam double daily would spend more dps-buffs imo, beside AA is a great tool to negate bossmechanics in NWO.
As the game is now - I don't find it needs any more balancing/nerfing. The only thing I would change now is SW, cause this is the only class that is underperforming a little. All other classes are viable and able to play all the content.
You guys don't want to balance this game, you guys want your class to be "first choice" in the picking order to ToNG/FBI/MSP runs. You are blaming the meta, but yet you don't want to make your own goddamn que just spamming for 3 hours "LFG" instead of "LFM".
I would also like to share that my fastest tong run was 23mins and we had SW as only dps. Where's your logic now?
Also, please guys. Define what is balancing to you? Cause I find this game pretty much balanced cause every class can play every piece of content.
Don't blame balance when people are just going the easy way, cause they want to finish dungeon in the fastest possible way. You guys think that nerfing will fix this issue? Sure, with this setup. Then there will be new setup with new classes that will be performing best in terms of speedrunning.
The website has the following classes listed as a Defender
GWF, GF and OP - these are the Defender/tanking classes yet a GWF that is setup to tank is still considered a Striker/Damage Dealer.
DC, OP, and SW - these are the Leader/Healing classes yet a SW cannot play as a Leader but is always a Striker/Damage Dealer.
CW, TR, HR, DC, and GF are listed as Utility/Controller but there is no such role in the game.
Striker: HR, GWF, TR, and SW
Every class has two roles that can be played but only the OP is able to q as both of its roles.
This is one issue within the game that should be fixed.
The other issue is the imbalance between each class with buffing and damage. I remember when the GF was the go to tank due to how ITF worked off the DR and not a simple flate buff, this made GF buffing tanks a thing but once ITF was adjusted GF was replaced by OP tanks and OP tanks became the new Meta for tanks.
Two DCs have been a meta for a while but it was two AC/DC until the DO DC was adjusted and now it is one of each type of DC.
Just updating each class to play two roles and balancing out each class is close to a full revamp to the game. A game revamp is needed to provide balance and more options for us as players.
▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ ▇ █ Gankdalf The Icehole █ ▇ ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
House Miliskeera in exile (NW)
Sereska Miliskeera, Lvl 70 OP - Devotion (Just.)/Protection (Just.)
Shizlee Miliskeera, Lvl 70 DC - Divine Oracle (Right.)/Anoited Champion (Faith.)
Finithey Miliskeera, Lvl 70 HR - Stormwarden (Combat)/Pathfinder (Trapper)
Maya Sik-Miliskeera, Lvl 70 CW - Spellstorm
Irae Sik-Miliskeera, Lvl 70 TR - Master Inflitrator
Member - Houseclan t'Charvon (STO)
Shiarrael e'Tal'Aura t'Charvon, LvL 60, Rom Sci
S'aana ir'Virinat t'Charvon, Lvl 60, Rom Eng
T'Lyra, LvL 60, Fed, Vul Sci
Ta'el, Lvl 60, Rom Tac
No I switch to my SM conqueror loadouts and melt content.
Same as DC, i chose rightous not Faithfull. This argument is invalid running several loadouts since mod..10?
DCUO, ESO, WOW, and NW are no different in that regard where players abuse the system to their benefit. I do know that at one point DCUO developers got irked by the abuse and removed top end gear from players that abused things and some were banned. It is why I tread with caution and simply pug content for the most part in NW. I did not lose my gear in DCUO but a few of my friends were ban for such behavior.
I know that many do not like being forced to run with 1-1-3 but if the devs removed private q it would solve the double DC issue immediately and they could state that it is a short term solution until they can update the game to provide more options for buffers, balance the damage dealers and support role classes in the game.
The thing is though that short term fix would probably be long term as this game has stacking issues for buff and debuff and every game I have played the devs always run into issues when trying to balance out classes.
So even though I support the idea of removing private q at the same time I also do not want it to go as I do runs on my support roles where I run with 4 damage dealers as you really do not need a tank in T1 or T2 content until you hit CN.
The remove private queue statement was left out because seemingly after the 2 DC nerf that is on the horizon two tanks (OP + GF) will be less ideal (maybe 2 OP's in a 5 person group, though overall from discussions various players two tanks and 1 DC doesn't seem good).
Hell scrolls alone discourage healing (lol), more than life steal which is a supplementary stat (if it discourages healing to a considerable degree). A revamp sounds great, the devil is in the details though.
The two roles per class is good in theory though the CW, TR, HR and SW classes currently don't really have a second role that they can fill and be effective at. Without major changes it would leave 4 classes stuck in the DPS role. The 2 DC nerf seemingly will free up a tank and DC for more groups.
“There are changes that can be made that don’t require coding...” - TriNitY
"No amount of coding will change human behavior" - TriNitY
Ongoing Issue: Legitmate Players Banned for Botting (Console) and the Future for "Dedicated" Players
Suggestions: (Implemented) \/\/ Rearrange Character on character Select Screen
That’s why I went with a DC in this game, as the Cleric had the most versatility in those roles and the only class I think that could do all roles (though it’s Support build was really just 2nd healer). And it was fun tanking end game dungeons with your thief (surprisingly effective too).
That was a cool system and allowed people to play different roles in the dungeon. As for NW, regardless of my build my DC is always assigned the healer role.