Remove private Q and now you cannot run two DC or two tanks. No more of the current meta.
Then you can't run with your friends anymore either. Removing private queue is not the answer, adjusting rewards is the answer. I routinely take whoever answers my calls for party regardless of class or ilvl, i don't want further limitations to this. Many of my friends are dcs, the dc_channel does all dc runs, there is no reason to take away this social aspect of the game.
fill the void of the 3rd and 4th DPS class with a class that can buff the group such as a Templock, MoF CW, HR, etc...A DPS class that is also a buffer.
That doesn't resolve the issue. CWs don't want to run MoF, HR's don't want to spam longstrider, sw's don't want to heal. This does not fix the issue that 60% of the population wants to be a dps while 40% want to be support. You can force cws into the party, you can't force them to be MOFs and if they won't be MOFs they are still sitting in PE looking for lfg calls and bitching noone will play with them.
I agree with @putzboy78 . Leave private queue alone, playing with my friends/guldies is a paramount aspect of the game. Right now, it's one of the few reasons that keeps making me come back to NWO. Take that away and many people might lose motivation to play the game, at least part of it.
Everyone (majority) wants to do the highest damage/play offensive. There are less people who want to do support. This is intrinsic to human nature, we are competitive species, most of us want to be "the best", "the biggest one", "the most famous one", etc. It's normal. So putz is right, not many people want to heal or dps, so forcing people into being what they "should be" won't solve anything, it will just make people look for better shores.
edit: typos
Less people to play support yet what do we see in groups as the new meta...
GF, OP, 2 DC and a HR/GWF; out of the classes listed on the HR/GWF are considered DPS by the NW Q system. Yet groups are forming with this new meta pretty regularly and all but 1 class that in that group is a non-support class in NW. That is the reason why players are getting butt hurt by TONG and even FBI at one point. The meta is all about buffing and debuffing due to how much of an impact it has on content.
I see plenty of people call out for 2nd DC all the time yet a CW, SW, HR, etc... as a buffer can work as good as a second DC.
The issue I see with NW is that everything seems to stacks. In other games I played, if I hit an enemy with a debuff or hit the group with a buff and than another buffer does the same thing, the other player buff/debuff would either over writes my buff/debuff or it refreshes it.
There are so many ways to buff or debuff in NW that to go to a refresh/overwrite system the devs would have to simplify the buffing/debuff mechanics of the game. From there the devs could flesh out the class and provide us all two roles. This would also require an overhaul of the content as well due to changes for buffing/debuffing.
I don't think the devs would go that route. Instead we will continue to see NERFs as every one call them due to the ability to over debuff in the game. We already seen the game add to it a hard cap and a soft cap with diminishing returns for debuffing.
A thread like this will only give the devs more info on where to adjust (NERF) things to allow groups to be more balanced and not so focused on running 4 buffers and only one true DPS.
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putzboy78Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,950Arc User
That doesn't resolve the issue. CWs don't want to run MoF, HR's don't want to spam longstrider, sw's don't want to heal. This does not fix the issue that 60% of the population wants to be a dps while 40% want to be support. You can force cws into the party, you can't force them to be MOFs and if they won't be MOFs they are still sitting in PE looking for lfg calls and bitching noone will play with them.
SW not wanting to run healer...Are you sure about that? I know a few SW that only run as Templock and nothing else. In fact I just got my SW to 70 last night and he is a temp lock himself and only a Templock.
Just like CW, I run only MoF builds and even my Thaum build now runs CC and Swath simply to boost the group damage.
There is always more than one way to play a character and many assume all SW, CW, and HR only want to be DPS. That is like assuming that all GF want to play as a tank.
I was on my GF and my friend formed a group and all we needed was 3 DPS and you know what we got. 3 GF all as DPS. So, please tell me how those players feel if they were told, nope you are a tank.
The issue here is the Q system. Now if the devs updated the game and allowed DCs, and GF to play as DPS than that would open up the game a bit more. SW should be considered healers and CW should be considered a buffer.
The game needs another role and the devs need to expand all classes so we can all play two various roles and actually play them through all content. GWF as tanks and can be played as tanks in TONG. That is what I am talking about and have even created a thread on this topic.
If the devs did this, removal of private Q would not be as big of a problem.
I'm not saying that every person in a dps class only plays dps. I'm saying that most of the people who can't get into a group don't want to buff. I know plenty of good mofs that run tong all the time without issue getting into groups. The other reason people are complaining about not able to get into a group is because they don't want to make the group. Like I've told all my dps friends. You want to run tong, you got to make the group. Supports don't need to make groups, they turn away requests for tong several times a day. Guess what, the dps's making the parties aren't inviting dps to the groups either. This dc rage is not really rage at dcs at all, its self hate.
I'm not saying that every person in a dps class only plays dps. I'm saying that most of the people who can't get into a group don't want to buff. I know plenty of good mofs that run tong all the time without issue getting into groups. The other reason people are complaining about not able to get into a group is because they don't want to make the group. Like I've told all my dps friends. You want to run tong, you got to make the group. Supports don't need to make groups, they turn away requests for tong several times a day. Guess what, the dps's making the parties aren't inviting dps to the groups either. This dc rage is not really rage at dcs at all, its self hate.
All MMOs I have played there are 10x more DPS than support roles. It is why most games have the q system setup with more DPS than support roles. The problem with newer content is that the BUFFERS are wanted but not equally.
GF vs OP tank - many want an OP Tank GF vs DPS buffers - many want a GF as a DPS buffer due to ITF and damage that a well built GF can produce 2nd DC vs other buffers - DO DC offer some really nice buffs - better than most other buffing classes AC DC vs Healadin -
When I watch LFG run I sit there and see looking for DC for x content. Not just TONG but even quick salvage runs.
I played with plenty end game DCs and not all of them are equal in skill or understanding of the class mechanics.
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adinosiiMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,294Arc User
There is a simple, workable solution that would make people want to drop the 2xDC "meta", or for that matter any other stacking of a particular class. (anyone here remember the multi-CW parties that were popular for the old CN, way back?)
The solution: Implement a "Rainbow bonus" . Basically, any 5-man party with 5 different classes would get some noticable bonus, like a +X% to outgoing damage, -Y% to incoming damage.
That's all. Simple and effective. That should pretty much guarantee it will not get implemented. Why have something simple that works if you can have a buggy, non-working mess instead?
and yet the GF + OP synergy is still also in high demand and doesn't suffer the same vitriol...
It will probably happen "soon enough".
With the proposed 2 DC changes and after they are implemented arguably groups will resort to GF+OP (2 tanks), if not already. After GF+OP gains more popularity (if not already) the developers would more than likely focus on doing something about that as well.
After/if something is done about GF+OP essentially the group composition will be inclined to be comprised of 1 Tank, 1 Support (Heal/Buff) and 3 DPS which is the same composition the queue system puts together...
Well I don't think my statement "legions' was inaccurate, just that people are willing to sit and wait for long periods just to get both DCs and to cancel the run if they can't get them.
Have seen it a number of times where groups would spend 30+ minutes looking for another DC instead of taking a DPS, and if they can't find another DC they can and do cancel the run/abandon the queue.
Have defeated the first two bosses in Tomb of the Nine Gods with one DC though things got rough at the last boss in part because instead of saving artifacts/encounters to boost DPS when the ghosts appear to prevent the "wipe bar" from filling, various players were popping them on the boss.
Instead you will have to fill the void of the 3rd and 4th DPS class with a class that can buff the group such as a Templock, MoF CW, HR, etc...A DPS class that is also a buffer.
Points of interest - On the way to the first boss the HR being in the back can hold aggro if everyone else goes down so the mobs don't go back to full health. - During the turtle boss fight often enough the turtle doesn't slam as much even if everyone else is standing in it's face because it will sometimes rev up it's distant AoE attack to try and hit the HR.
The solution: Implement a "Rainbow bonus" . Basically, any 5-man party with 5 different classes would get some noticable bonus, like a +X% to outgoing damage, -Y% to incoming damage.
That's not really balance, it's simply a buff for not stacking classes...
Currently how the GF+OP combo stacks the suggested bonus would have to be quite high, and the other balance issues would still be present...
Band-aid or surgery?
ALL Rights Reserved for any and all suggestions, ideas, etc. from this user.
“There are changes that can be made that don’t require coding...” - TriNitY "No amount of coding will change human behavior" - TriNitY
Fools with out 2 dcs t9 will be a disaster , 14k dps that get buffed enough to complete t9 now will not have a chance In hell to get in a group (should they nerf double dc) I for 1 will look for 16.5 an above groups should this occur , as that is my il. Then you will have 15k of every class complaining Mark my words
I completed Hero's Accord last week with DC, GF, CW, GWF, SW. Took 44 minutes. We wiped once at Withers and once at Ras Nsi. My CW had the highest IL at 15.2k. The DC was around 12.5k and the others all 14k range. A number of these characters were alts, although decently geared ones.
"We have always been at war with Dread Vault" ~ Little Brother
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putzboy78Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,950Arc User
I completed Hero's Accord last week with DC, GF, CW, GWF, SW. Took 44 minutes. We wiped once at Withers and once at Ras Nsi. My CW had the highest IL at 15.2k. The DC was around 12.5k and the others all 14k range. A number of these characters were alts, although decently geared ones.
so a run time of double a BIS team. So if the rewards from Hero's Accord doubled what you get from private queue would you consider doing Hero's Accord (queueing as a premade ofc). Also was your 12k dc ac or do?
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isaintify1Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 414Arc User
edited December 2017
Instead of changing the core class and everything else around it, take a look at other classes that can help a party. Now I wont suggest "Add a Bard" because as cryptic likes to say is we must class balance! For the last two years, this has been told over and over. So what I am suggesting is look at other classes that could be improved for people to take into more dungeons. Ive had many thoughts on what classes and stuff like MOF CW make it do more debuffs, or make the Instigator path on the GWF party wide buffer and add debuffer. Wont suggest the warlock since they are already getting/recieved buffs, for M13. The one class and path that I think would help drastically is the Devotion Paladin. Now before all the DCs get mad and attack me saying "Devotions would replace DCs". It honestly would not. Rework the devotion paladin so that it will "HEAL LESS, BUFF MORE." Do not make it of course on the level of a DC but close enough that people would be interested in Devotion Paladins. Now I know what some people are thinking right now because it came to my own mind. "Hey well now we won't have two DC problems, but we will have two OP problems!" Somewhat true except the fact that Devotion Paladin is NOT a tank. While the DCs are both Buffers and have no other category. OPs are two whole different classes in one. There is a fantastic thread that a lot of Devotion Paladins including myself have made suggestions over the last two years to change devotion to make it more viable to people. I am pretty sure it would greatly help the whole two DC problems. Because I saw in zone chat of P.E a person was looking for "(TWO)" DCs for a Grey Wolf Den, and of course they had to be 12k+ for it. It is getting out of hand and I am giving a possible solution to this problem.
The party leader queued us as Hero's Accord since we qualified for it, rather than looking for the rewards. I would run 3 dps parties regardless of extra rewards, though it would be nice if the Devs rebalanced some things to make it the better option, ultimately I tend to play in groups with friends and guildies. If they want to run a certain character, it's fine with me. If 2 DC weren't the preferred choice, it would be easier for me to play my CW more in Tomb. (since people with DCs aren't allowed to have other characters as mains...)
The DC in that group had loadouts for both. I think he ran DO for the most part, switching towards the end. I know he was using AA in the Ras Nsi fight as Partial Paralysis is such a pain without it. If I'm sole DC, I run DO until the final fight for that reason.
"We have always been at war with Dread Vault" ~ Little Brother
There is a simple, workable solution that would make people want to drop the 2xDC "meta", or for that matter any other stacking of a particular class. (anyone here remember the multi-CW parties that were popular for the old CN, way back?)
The solution: Implement a "Rainbow bonus" . Basically, any 5-man party with 5 different classes would get some noticable bonus, like a +X% to outgoing damage, -Y% to incoming damage.
That's all. Simple and effective. That should pretty much guarantee it will not get implemented. Why have something simple that works if you can have a buggy, non-working mess instead?
I have seen this in DCUO where raids are 2-2-2-2 and that is 2 tank, 2 healers, 2 controllers (for stunning, buffing and debuffing) and 2 DPS. This group makeup gets no penalty but if you run any other combo you get a penalty to damage in and damage out; most players don't realize this and it has little to no impact to the game. Most groups run 1 tank, 1 healer and 1 controller with 5 DPS. The reason is - the extra 2 DPS produce enough damage to outweigh running a balanced group; therefore, many forgo running balance groups and run imbalance for quicker run time.
Within NW, the extra buffs provided by a 2nd DC and having an additional buffer such as a GF (another tank) will probably still outweigh running a more balanced group in NW due to the buffing and debuffing the party gets from running a 2nd DC and Tank class.
I like where you were going with this idea but I don't think it will work like you thought as I have seen this fail in other MMOs as well.
Best way to resolve this issue is make other buffing classes stronger than a 2nd DC.
MoF Buffer: 1) Increase the damage buff from Smolder for Swath from 20% to 50% 2) Change the buff for Chaos Magic so it always process either 30% damage or 25% increase to Crit Sev with a 10% increase to Crit Chance 3) Modify the feat in the Renegade to add a buff/debuff feature to Sorching Burst where targets hit by it will have their DR reduce by 10% or something along those lines.
Templock 1) Mod 13 Updates 2) Whenever the SW lifesteal a target, that target DR is reduced by 10% and damage to the target is increased by 10%
GWF: 1) Create a full on buffing/debuffing GWF build (they need more than a DPS build)
I'm sorry but 2 DC is not needed in this game. It makes the content quicker but it also leaves out other players due to the game being vastly imbalanced.
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putzboy78Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,950Arc User
There is a simple, workable solution that would make people want to drop the 2xDC "meta", or for that matter any other stacking of a particular class. (anyone here remember the multi-CW parties that were popular for the old CN, way back?)
The solution: Implement a "Rainbow bonus" . Basically, any 5-man party with 5 different classes would get some noticable bonus, like a +X% to outgoing damage, -Y% to incoming damage.
That's all. Simple and effective. That should pretty much guarantee it will not get implemented. Why have something simple that works if you can have a buggy, non-working mess instead?
I have seen this in DCUO where raids are 2-2-2-2 and that is 2 tank, 2 healers, 2 controllers (for stunning, buffing and debuffing) and 2 DPS. This group makeup gets no penalty but if you run any other combo you get a penalty to damage in and damage out; most players don't realize this and it has little to no impact to the game. Most groups run 1 tank, 1 healer and 1 controller with 5 DPS. The reason is - the extra 2 DPS produce enough damage to outweigh running a balanced group; therefore, many forgo running balance groups and run imbalance for quicker run time.
Within NW, the extra buffs provided by a 2nd DC and having an additional buffer such as a GF (another tank) will probably still outweigh running a more balanced group in NW due to the buffing and debuffing the party gets from running a 2nd DC and Tank class.
I like where you were going with this idea but I don't think it will work like you thought as I have seen this fail in other MMOs as well.
Best way to resolve this issue is make other buffing classes stronger than a 2nd DC.
MoF Buffer: 1) Increase the damage buff from Smolder for Swath from 20% to 50% 2) Change the buff for Chaos Magic so it always process either 30% damage or 25% increase to Crit Sev with a 10% increase to Crit Chance 3) Modify the feat in the Renegade to add a buff/debuff feature to Sorching Burst where targets hit by it will have their DR reduce by 10% or something along those lines.
Templock 1) Mod 13 Updates 2) Whenever the SW lifesteal a target, that target DR is reduced by 10% and damage to the target is increased by 10%
GWF: 1) Create a full on buffing/debuffing GWF build (they need more than a DPS build)
I'm sorry but 2 DC is not needed in this game. It makes the content quicker but it also leaves out other players due to the game being vastly imbalanced.
but that fixes nothing. The root of the hate (although you wouldn't guess it when we join the parties of the haters) is that there are dps classes and builds that cannot break into the rotation. Sure you can take away a dc from the party but that doesn't fix the heart of the complaint. it's an attack on the symptom not the problem. MOF is already getting love and comes in as a near second in the 4th buff/debuff role (studs like @oria1 get into parties all day everyday and can probably make a strong argument that depending on the scenario out performs DCs). You'd still have only one DPS in the party, the dps trs, cws, and sws still can't get into a party and they will not be satiated by allowing them a viable support role in carrying the GWFs lunch pale.
You keep bringing up the same argument which is you want to buff the classes you enjoy playing to out perform the dc as a buff/debuffer. That may make you happy (who doesn't want to get buffed?), but it does nothing for the overall population, which is getting more dps classes in the party.
And fyi, GWF needs no help getting into a dungeon group, if the other dps classes performed on par with GWFs, they wouldn't be QQing they can't get into a party. GWF has two builds but no one wants them to play tank no different than how no one wants a dc to go full heals. I remember when TR was the single target king, if that was still the case they'd be welcome additions in tong (because face it, even a good OP can clear the trash on the way to the bosses and OP technically doesn't have a DPS tree).
I'd recommend you take your argument elsewhere and either bang the "we need more viable options for each class" drum or that we need to ballance dps across classes. But this argument your making confuses 3 distinct ideologies and fails to resolve the core reason for the qq.
So again i state fix the rewards for Hero's Accord so that it becomes worthwhile to do it and people will. Even if that means introducing a mechanic as proposed by @adinosii where certain roles that are queued get buffs/nerfs to enforce class roles. No one queues the meta for RQED because the reward + effort to make a meta party offsets the speed benefit of a private queue and yet it does not infringe on my ability to play with my friends in a private queue if i want to.
There is a simple, workable solution that would make people want to drop the 2xDC "meta", or for that matter any other stacking of a particular class. (anyone here remember the multi-CW parties that were popular for the old CN, way back?)
The solution: Implement a "Rainbow bonus" . Basically, any 5-man party with 5 different classes would get some noticable bonus, like a +X% to outgoing damage, -Y% to incoming damage.
That's all. Simple and effective. That should pretty much guarantee it will not get implemented. Why have something simple that works if you can have a buggy, non-working mess instead?
I have seen this in DCUO where raids are 2-2-2-2 and that is 2 tank, 2 healers, 2 controllers (for stunning, buffing and debuffing) and 2 DPS. This group makeup gets no penalty but if you run any other combo you get a penalty to damage in and damage out; most players don't realize this and it has little to no impact to the game. Most groups run 1 tank, 1 healer and 1 controller with 5 DPS. The reason is - the extra 2 DPS produce enough damage to outweigh running a balanced group; therefore, many forgo running balance groups and run imbalance for quicker run time.
Within NW, the extra buffs provided by a 2nd DC and having an additional buffer such as a GF (another tank) will probably still outweigh running a more balanced group in NW due to the buffing and debuffing the party gets from running a 2nd DC and Tank class.
I like where you were going with this idea but I don't think it will work like you thought as I have seen this fail in other MMOs as well.
Best way to resolve this issue is make other buffing classes stronger than a 2nd DC.
MoF Buffer: 1) Increase the damage buff from Smolder for Swath from 20% to 50% 2) Change the buff for Chaos Magic so it always process either 30% damage or 25% increase to Crit Sev with a 10% increase to Crit Chance 3) Modify the feat in the Renegade to add a buff/debuff feature to Sorching Burst where targets hit by it will have their DR reduce by 10% or something along those lines.
Templock 1) Mod 13 Updates 2) Whenever the SW lifesteal a target, that target DR is reduced by 10% and damage to the target is increased by 10%
GWF: 1) Create a full on buffing/debuffing GWF build (they need more than a DPS build)
I'm sorry but 2 DC is not needed in this game. It makes the content quicker but it also leaves out other players due to the game being vastly imbalanced.
but that fixes nothing. The root of the hate (although you wouldn't guess it when we join the parties of the haters) is that there are dps classes and builds that cannot break into the rotation. Sure you can take away a dc from the party but that doesn't fix the heart of the complaint. it's an attack on the symptom not the problem. MOF is already getting love and comes in as a near second in the 4th buff/debuff role (studs like @oria1 get into parties all day everyday and can probably make a strong argument that depending on the scenario out performs DCs). You'd still have only one DPS in the party, the dps trs, cws, and sws still can't get into a party and they will not be satiated by allowing them a viable support role in carrying the GWFs lunch pale.
You keep bringing up the same argument which is you want to buff the classes you enjoy playing to out perform the dc as a buff/debuffer. That may make you happy (who doesn't want to get buffed?), but it does nothing for the overall population, which is getting more dps classes in the party.
And fyi, GWF needs no help getting into a dungeon group, if the other dps classes performed on par with GWFs, they wouldn't be QQing they can't get into a party. GWF has two builds but no one wants them to play tank no different than how no one wants a dc to go full heals. I remember when TR was the single target king, if that was still the case they'd be welcome additions in tong (because face it, even a good OP can clear the trash on the way to the bosses and OP technically doesn't have a DPS tree).
I'd recommend you take your argument elsewhere and either bang the "we need more viable options for each class" drum or that we need to ballance dps across classes. But this argument your making confuses 3 distinct ideologies and fails to resolve the core reason for the qq.
So again i state fix the rewards for Hero's Accord so that it becomes worthwhile to do it and people will. Even if that means introducing a mechanic as proposed by @adinosii where certain roles that are queued get buffs/nerfs to enforce class roles. No one queues the meta for RQED because the reward + effort to make a meta party offsets the speed benefit of a private queue and yet it does not infringe on my ability to play with my friends in a private queue if i want to.
I have brought up many views on the Q system and the game being revamped. There are two things in life that you can count on: TAXES and CHANGE.
The funny thing is most people have a hard time dealing with change; I look forward to it.
Whatever the changes the devs have, good or bad, I look forward to it as it offers players a chance to see how good they truly are: are you a one trick pony or a player that can adept and still be as effective.
As for a fix; I'm all for a full game revamp. Anything else is just patchwork until the devs have no real choice but to revamp the game.
ESO did this, DCUO did this, WOW, etc...it is only a matter of time before NW does this as well.
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adinosiiMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,294Arc User
Well, it is not a disaster today, so why should it become one?
I do a lot of ToNG runs, mostly in 2 DC groups, but also the occasional run with me as the only DC. I have been keeping some records, and my experience is like this: A well-geared group with ACDC/DODC/OP/dps/any completes TNG in 25 minutes on the average. An equally well-geared group of DC/OP/dps/any/any takes 30 minutes on the average. That's all. A 5-minute difference in run times.
Now, having 2 DCs does matter in "borderline" groups - undergeared or less/skilled DPSers may not be able to kill Orcus before the tempHP pool of the "ball guy" finishes, unless they get buffed by 2 DCs.
Sorry, that's life - if you require 2 DCs to buff you, you are just not ready for ToNG yet.
I think the real issue is elsewhere. The poorly defined roles for each class as well as the constant changes.
If I may a small travel in time.
At the beginning of the game there were only 4 classes (yes, yes) . GF with dps/tank/buff path - Cleric - CW (Renegade buff/ aoe dps - Thauma debuff/ aoe dps - Oppressor control and... less dps) and TR with massive damage on single target. As you see we had well defined roles. CW was there to "control" (kill) the crowds of mobs, dc was to support/mitigate/heal,GF was there to aggro and take damage and Tr was hugging the boss driving it to its death.
Module after module though and with every developer (team) leaving and joining they brought their ideas of what they thought the classes should be, how the dungeons should be etc etc and over time we are left with incomplete skills and overlapping or exaggerated roles.
Think of today. Lets compare the 2 tanks for example in their traditional roles. Paladin and GF. Paladin offers Aura of courage that can be anything from 25% to 40% of your own damage, it shares power, it gives boost to skills cooldowns with wisdom... can tank, aggro and can protect. What does GF offer? ITF and aggro/tank and protect. Maybe a small debuff here and there too. Now do you see the main difference? For a GF to be "viable" they have to switch to a dps setup which is fine if you like it, but shouldn't be forced by the game in order to get in runs. Don't get me wrong I like both classes and I mean no offense to the class but just stating the obvious and not trying to start a nerf this buff that conversation.
What IF... the gf had similar buffs in quality while making sure they don't stack with the ones from the paladin. For example change a passive to be something like "Valorous Energy: Team mates deal a % of their power as extra damage" (like aura of courage but based on power) while making sure one doesn't outperform the other. At that point the role of the tank would go to... the better player. NOT THE BETTER CLASS.
Same for dps. The devs can make two classes deal a lot more damage to the bosses and let’s call them boss DPS. TR / GWF. They should have the same potential for single target attacks upon build and played right. Both classes should have reduce aoe attack damage, so again at that point a group would pick the better player for the role and not the better class.
Aoe damage: Add a bit more mobs to the dungeons when needed and have CW, SW, HR have equal, increased aoe damage output and not so much in single target.
Buffing/healing: Give DC/Devo paladin/SW Temp the same quality of buffs through different ways/mechanics. Make sure 2 same classes don't stack and??? Again the party will choose the better player. (start noticing the pattern?)
Debuffing: Have a CW/HR path excel but remove any damage buffs and add a cost to aoe Damage, remove debuffs from other classes/items.
The above is just an example to demonstrate role balance and NOT a suggestion. I don't have an opinion really as to which class should play what role as long as it’s well defined and stated even in the character creation screen, so us players can read what a class supposed to do (and not to do). I'm sure there are better ways to do it or even utilize the paths for different aspects. My point is to have well defined roles.
If that happens, players will feel free to choose the class based on what they like. This also eliminates a lot of the current problems we have in the game. Why have 2 dc as buffers when all 3 classes offer similar buff?? Why ask only for gwf as main dps? There won't be anymore FotM classes and so on..
Also there is a reward/penalty for the choices the party leader makes. You put cw/sw together? Aoe will melt… boss fight will take longer. Want to stack tr/gwf? Boss will go fast… but mobs will slow you down a lot. You can take 2 buffers but no debuffs at all, and so on. So with this system all classes have equal chance and something to make them desirable and let the better player win.
Again this is not a suggestion, as the way the problem has grown it needs a lot more than 3-4 paragraphs from a random player in a random post, but just a small theoretical example to demonstrate the (what I think) underlying problem is.
The devs/management needs to take a small break from the changes and redefine the classes. Also have stronger management policies when it comes to decisions about the class roles. There should be a policy that ALL devs, current and future would follow and not deviate from that based on what they think. Because when they leave.. we get stuck with it. (mod 6 anyone?)
I m looking forward to the day that in LFG and various channels, we will see
LF for Buffer for t9 and not... LF 2 dc LF boss DPS for SP and not LF gwf LF tank... and not LF for OP
Post edited by oria1 on
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putzboy78Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,950Arc User
Well, it is not a disaster today, so why should it become one?
I do a lot of ToNG runs, mostly in 2 DC groups, but also the occasional run with me as the only DC. I have been keeping some records, and my experience is like this: A well-geared group with ACDC/DODC/OP/dps/any completes TNG in 25 minutes on the average. An equally well-geared group of DC/OP/dps/any/any takes 30 minutes on the average. That's all. A 5-minute difference in run times.
Now, having 2 DCs does matter in "borderline" groups - undergeared or less/skilled DPSers may not be able to kill Orcus before the tempHP pool of the "ball guy" finishes, unless they get buffed by 2 DCs.
Sorry, that's life - if you require 2 DCs to buff you, you are just not ready for ToNG yet.
In your second scenario is that an AC DC or a DO DC? also i think what @dony2629#8239 is talking about is that it will be a diaster for the not well-geared groups. What will happen to the 14k group without trans lightning enchants to clear souls and zombies and R13 bonding companions? The reality is for the 16krs it don't matter, its a speed drill. For the 14kr the meta is the difference between completion of not.
If we replace the meta with a 14k GF and a 14K healidon what happens? Which is hardly borderline given the ilvl requirement of 12K. The solution should has to account for these folks.
I have brought up many views on the Q system and the game being revamped. There are two things in life that you can count on: TAXES and CHANGE.
The funny thing is most people have a hard time dealing with change; I look forward to it.
Whatever the changes the devs have, good or bad, I look forward to it as it offers players a chance to see how good they truly are: are you a one trick pony or a player that can adept and still be as effective.
As for a fix; I'm all for a full game revamp. Anything else is just patchwork until the devs have no real choice but to revamp the game.
ESO did this, DCUO did this, WOW, etc...it is only a matter of time before NW does this as well.
However your solutions are all the same, buff the classes you play and don't address the 1 dps meta at all because you don't mind playing a support role. For my friends that are dps TRs, SWs, and CWs they will still be left out and qq'ing.
Change will come, it always does. When something is perfect, people try to improve it and restart the tweaking machine. That's just nature. But instead of making a compromise in your solution, evolve it and specify what you want them to do. By compromising your are essentially relieving the devs from the pressure of expectation. If you demand excellence maybe you'll get 60% of it, if you try to meet them in the middle your going to get 40% of what was possible because you've already given them license to short change you with effort. Let's work together to turn the conversation away from destroying the 2 dc meta, and make sure people and dev's understand that's not the problem. The problem for the dps folks that are qqing because they can't get into a party is a 4 support 1 dps meta. If we don't address the root cause, we will just start another lynch mob after they nerf dc. We will be having this same conversation about OPs and GFs next mod.
Problem is that the 2DC/GWF/GF/OP whatever comps dont always work either.. It really depends on players, how good they are, what their builds are and so on.
I had 20-25min runs with me being the only DC (DO), we had an SW,HR,OP and CW. No GWF, no GF for buffs either. The SW was insane, same with HR. It was a random group from some PvE channel, and it was the best run I had, fast, no wipes either.
Where many times with the "meta comp" we wiped 10 times at the end lol.
I have brought up many views on the Q system and the game being revamped. There are two things in life that you can count on: TAXES and CHANGE.
The funny thing is most people have a hard time dealing with change; I look forward to it.
Whatever the changes the devs have, good or bad, I look forward to it as it offers players a chance to see how good they truly are: are you a one trick pony or a player that can adept and still be as effective.
As for a fix; I'm all for a full game revamp. Anything else is just patchwork until the devs have no real choice but to revamp the game.
ESO did this, DCUO did this, WOW, etc...it is only a matter of time before NW does this as well.
However your solutions are all the same, buff the classes you play and don't address the 1 dps meta at all because you don't mind playing a support role. For my friends that are dps TRs, SWs, and CWs they will still be left out and qq'ing.
Change will come, it always does. When something is perfect, people try to improve it and restart the tweaking machine. That's just nature. But instead of making a compromise in your solution, evolve it and specify what you want them to do. By compromising your are essentially relieving the devs from the pressure of expectation. If you demand excellence maybe you'll get 60% of it, if you try to meet them in the middle your going to get 40% of what was possible because you've already given them license to short change you with effort. Let's work together to turn the conversation away from destroying the 2 dc meta, and make sure people and dev's understand that's not the problem. The problem for the dps folks that are qqing because they can't get into a party is a 4 support 1 dps meta. If we don't address the root cause, we will just start another lynch mob after they nerf dc. We will be having this same conversation about OPs and GFs next mod.
My main ask has been REVAMP the game. Add a new role, Controller/Buffer. Provide all classes the ability to play two distinct roles and play said roles effectively. This would make loadouts more valuable and worth creating a 2nd loadout (GWF for example only has one build worth creating). This update would make healing a thing again. The REVAMP would also allow the devs to bring about balance between DPS classes. It would make the game better for all players and maybe allow the devs to remove 1 shots from the game but it would reduce our damage out and enemies damage out to balance things out.
That is the type of change I want to see. It is not about support or DPS it is about expanding the game and fixing the imbalance in the game. It about providing us options and giving us more as players. I'm all for that.
The way to curb going with more support is to have support buff/debuff overwrite each other. This would encourage more DPS over another support player. Reducing the effectiveness of Lifesteal while in a group would encourage healers healing. As for tanks, ensure that any class that can tank can tank all content.
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putzboy78Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,950Arc User
GWF has two builds worth creating, they just don't want to tank. Ever seen a 16K GWF who not only created a tank loadout but actually built for tanking with high hp (increases temp hp), high stamina, tanking companions, etc?
I think every class already has multiple roles available, the biggest issue is that the need for the secondary role is not there. If you don't need healers and you don't need controllers you limit the "viable" build options to three tank (the one shot kill is the only thing that keeps tanks in demand), buff/debuff, and dps. You make controller and heals viable, the problem is resolved without "buffing" or "nerfing" classes
They do have multiple roles but they are not equally "gifted" and if they are not no one will want the 2nd best. Compare the 2 tanks on buffing abilities. Compare the 3 "healers" in heal / buffing.
My point was to make the roles equal and let players choose what ever class they like.
Is there a specific reason why a DC can buff for 120% and the sw/devo paladin far less? I can understand that they can compensate with damage and debuff but still is not enough...
Is there a reason that the OP can buff that much while the GF can't (both being tanks) and at that point is best to be dps as a gf?
Or if that's the case, the devs should be clear and consistent . Yes this is how it is and that's how it will remain. The only thing that should change is how much a skill deals damage or a buff boosts damage/mitigation to adjust for the the class balance at that point.
Again my post was just an example, don't take it to the letter. My point was that the game needs to define the roles and freeze them without major changes over time so we can then decide what we all like to play and not change with every module. (I don't but a lot of people do in order to get in runs and that leads to bad players and poor gameplay as its boring to play something you don't like).
Is there a specific reason why a DC can buff for 120% and the sw/devo paladin far less? I can understand that they can compensate with damage and debuff but still is not enough...
Is there a reason that the OP can buff that much while the GF can't (both being tanks) and at that point is best to be dps as a gf?
because Neverwinter is not simply a MMO RPG. Neverwinter is D&D. Some classes do some things better than other classes, or at least, they do it in a different way.
Divine magic, as the name suggests, is the power of the gods, flowing from them into the world. Clerics are conduits for that power, manifesting it as miraculous effects. The gods don’t grant this power lightly or to everyone who seeks it, but only to those they choose to fulfill a high calling. Harnessing divine magic doesn’t rely on study or training. A cleric might learn formulaic prayers and ancient rites, but ultimately the ability to cast cleric spells relies on devotion and an intuitive understanding of a deity’s wishes.
Clerics combine the helpful magic of healing and inspiring their allies with spells that harm and hinder foes. They can inspire awe and dread, lay curses of plague or poison, and even call down flames from heaven to consume their enemies. And sometimes evildoers benefit most from a mace to the head, so clerics don’t neglect combat training and can wade into a melee.
In game terms, a Paladin is thus typically a Warrior character first and foremost, proficient with heavy arms and armor. Yet at the same time a Paladin is gifted with blessings or magical capabilities such as healing, protection, and countering evil magic (including undead), albeit to a lesser degree than a true priest or cleric. His (or her) outlook would typically be that of a militant defender of his faith, sometimes crossing over into cleric, missionary, zealot, or inquisitor territory.
Fighters learn the basics of all combat styles. Every fighter can swing an axe, fence with a rapier, wield a longsword or a greatsword, use a bow, and even trap foes in a net with some degree of skill. Likewise, a fighter is adept with shields and every form of armor. Beyond that basic degree of familiarity, every fighter specializes in certain styles of combat. Some concentrate on archery, some on fighting with two weapons at once, and some on augmenting their martial skills with magic. This combination of broad general ability and extensive specialization makes fighters superior combatants on battlefields and in dungeons alike.
"Wizards are supreme magic-users, defined and united as a class by the spells they cast. Their magic conjures elementals from other planes of existence, glimpses the future, or turns slain foes into shambling zombies. Their mightiest spells change one substance into another or alter a creature’s form, open pathways to other planes of existence, or even kill with a single word." I dont think that's what we do though.
"Rogues, When it comes to combat, rogues prioritize skill over brute strength. A rogue would rather make one precise strike, placing it exactly where the attack will hurt the target most, than wear an opponent down with many smaller strikes. They have an almost supernatural knack for avoiding danger, and a few rogues learn magical tricks to supplement their other abilities."
Not brute force yet, we are talking about the class with the highest power in the game that actually brute force a boss down.
as far as Clerics go... "Clerics combine the helpful magic of healing and inspiring their allies with spells that harm and hinder foes. They can inspire awe and dread, lay curses of plague or poison, and even call down flames from heaven to consume their enemies. And sometimes evildoers benefit most from a mace to the head, so clerics don’t neglect combat training and can wade into a melee." I don't really see buffing but I see Damage over time and debuff and dps in those words.
We could go on for other classes.. (a healer warlock?) By my D&D knowledge is not that great. I do know though that the game is D&D based and not D&D in the full meaning. Which means the game is influenced from D&D for its stories and quests and chars but that's the extend of it. As the Neverwinter title sais "Neverwinter is a free-to-play, action MMORPG based on the acclaimed Dungeons & Dragons fantasy roleplaying game. ... "
Cause after all if it was D&D... why all the changes in the classes over the 4 years.
One other thing, even in your words I don't see why a DC can buff more than a paladin or a paladin should buff less (as an example). All the class descriptions that I was reading, they never mentioned that a class can do something better than another.
( I know this is a sensitive topic so i sincerely request that no trolling or nerf request to be posted here. A suggestion to help solve the problem will be most welcome. Thanks in advance. )
This game has 8 class ( OP,GF,GWF,DC ,HR ,TR, SW & CW) with 3 path branches out and 2 variation. That makes 48 different role to play. Its a very broad and diverse range of classes to play with which makes this game interesting. Sadly it is not what it seems. Some classes out perform the rest by a huge diffrence and some synergy way too much with certain class. Some dungeon are badly designed that they hamper a certain class to play well. Developer realy need to iron out the performance and synergy between each classes and path so that everyone can play what they want without being excluded by the community. I m not talking about ilvl but class and their path balance. They also need to be more considerate of all the classes and their path when designing new dungeon. Just look at FBI. Anyone played as CW oppressor there? Or MSP 2nd boss, there isnt any room for player playing as archer to stand at max distance. Even so there will be people asking archer to fight point blank for the buff sake or archer are blamed for being selfish ( i dont blame them for saying that, i m blaming the bad class balance).
These is all result from an inconsiderate and poorly tested class balance by the developer that accumulated over the module. They should not have focus on certain class without really tested out the 48 variation. Even the game design such as dungeon and trial does affect the game play of each of the variation. The twin DC meta is born out of SVA and ever since, nearly all end game dungeon has been about this meta because they synergize way too well. If the developer ever design a dungeon that made trap that is so dangerous that intant kill anyone disregard of their defense or buff, u will start to see TR to be fotm of a party meta. Dungeon design is a factor too when it comes to class balance. The developer need to start draw out the board on which class excel too much or too little and which class did not synergy well or too well across the 48 variation. Its a big project but once the main issue is found and solve, the future class balance will be mostly minor adjustment.
I m sure they are many other class that feel excluded by the community which hamper them to really enjoy the content just because they want to play the class/path they want. I wonder how a player play Tomb of the 9 gods when the class they play isnt in the meta. Public que dont even pop. Oh u can say by joining a guild or channel, make ur own party, just play the meta class & etc but that does not really solve the issue. I hope the developer really bring in the real class balance where all class, including their sub path has equal synergy with each and every class and the performance difference between each class and path is reduced greatly. Also i hope there will be a well design dungeon that will consider each and every class in their variation to be playable on equal ground. That will ensure every player has the equal opportunity to play this game regardless of class/path they choose.
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clericalistMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 595Arc User
edited December 2017
I don't think that anyone will disagree that there is a balance mess, however you ask for a suggestion but also say, that great taboo, nerfing not be mentioned. If you want to balance things then nerfing needs to happen, it's really that simple, if you disagree then explain to me how else to deal with overpowered classes, make everyone else overpowered as well?
As long as "Guardians/Healers/Defenders" classes will be able to make DPS as it is + all of them have a lot of stuns, there will be no class balance. But really, Devs don't care about it, they prefer to play a cards on live stream twitch what make me just upset, they showed where is their opinion about current state of the game, on the table with hamburgers and board games. Shame.
There aren't 48 roles. There are 48 styles of play, but there are only 5 roles. Healers, buffers, tanks, DPS and CC. So yeah.
I count tanking and CCing as the same role, they both fulfill the role of aggro management. CC works better against many enemies which do significant burst damage but are vulnerable to CC (they aren't tankable) while tanking works better against small groups of enemies where the incoming damage can be managed via damage mitigation tools. Currently we have no content designed for CC, so you see 0 CC classes occupying a spot. So long as OPs have millions of temp hp, a CC Class will never see use in the meta, because the incoming damage can pretty much never exceed the durability of that class. By the same token however, if CC did ever see use in a dungeon, I expect it would be at the expense of a tank since the 2 roles are interchangeable.
There aren't 48 roles. There are 48 styles of play, but there are only 5 roles. Healers, buffers, tanks, DPS and CC. So yeah.
I count tanking and CCing as the same role, they both fulfill the role of aggro management. CC works better against many enemies which do significant burst damage but are vulnerable to CC (they aren't tankable) while tanking works better against small groups of enemies where the incoming damage can be managed via damage mitigation tools. Currently we have no content designed for CC, so you see 0 CC classes occupying a spot. So long as OPs have millions of temp hp, a CC Class will never see use in the meta, because the incoming damage can pretty much never exceed the durability of that class. By the same token however, if CC did ever see use in a dungeon, I expect it would be at the expense of a tank since the 2 roles are interchangeable.
Dunno man, aggro management isn't exactly the same as a CW holding a whole army of enemies frozen for the next 20 minutes. But I see where you're coming from.
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GF, OP, 2 DC and a HR/GWF; out of the classes listed on the HR/GWF are considered DPS by the NW Q system. Yet groups are forming with this new meta pretty regularly and all but 1 class that in that group is a non-support class in NW. That is the reason why players are getting butt hurt by TONG and even FBI at one point. The meta is all about buffing and debuffing due to how much of an impact it has on content.
I see plenty of people call out for 2nd DC all the time yet a CW, SW, HR, etc... as a buffer can work as good as a second DC.
The issue I see with NW is that everything seems to stacks. In other games I played, if I hit an enemy with a debuff or hit the group with a buff and than another buffer does the same thing, the other player buff/debuff would either over writes my buff/debuff or it refreshes it.
There are so many ways to buff or debuff in NW that to go to a refresh/overwrite system the devs would have to simplify the buffing/debuff mechanics of the game. From there the devs could flesh out the class and provide us all two roles. This would also require an overhaul of the content as well due to changes for buffing/debuffing.
I don't think the devs would go that route. Instead we will continue to see NERFs as every one call them due to the ability to over debuff in the game. We already seen the game add to it a hard cap and a soft cap with diminishing returns for debuffing.
A thread like this will only give the devs more info on where to adjust (NERF) things to allow groups to be more balanced and not so focused on running 4 buffers and only one true DPS.
GF vs OP tank - many want an OP Tank
GF vs DPS buffers - many want a GF as a DPS buffer due to ITF and damage that a well built GF can produce
2nd DC vs other buffers - DO DC offer some really nice buffs - better than most other buffing classes
AC DC vs Healadin -
When I watch LFG run I sit there and see looking for DC for x content. Not just TONG but even quick salvage runs.
I played with plenty end game DCs and not all of them are equal in skill or understanding of the class mechanics.
The solution: Implement a "Rainbow bonus" . Basically, any 5-man party with 5 different classes would get some noticable bonus, like a +X% to outgoing damage, -Y% to incoming damage.
That's all. Simple and effective. That should pretty much guarantee it will not get implemented. Why have something simple that works if you can have a buggy, non-working mess instead?
With the proposed 2 DC changes and after they are implemented arguably groups will resort to GF+OP (2 tanks), if not already. After GF+OP gains more popularity (if not already) the developers would more than likely focus on doing something about that as well.
After/if something is done about GF+OP essentially the group composition will be inclined to be comprised of 1 Tank, 1 Support (Heal/Buff) and 3 DPS which is the same composition the queue system puts together... Have seen it a number of times where groups would spend 30+ minutes looking for another DC instead of taking a DPS, and if they can't find another DC they can and do cancel the run/abandon the queue.
Have defeated the first two bosses in Tomb of the Nine Gods with one DC though things got rough at the last boss in part because instead of saving artifacts/encounters to boost DPS when the ghosts appear to prevent the "wipe bar" from filling, various players were popping them on the boss. A particular HR sometimes does just that in FBI, not simply because they want to:
- Goes Archery spec
- Rotation: Commanding Shot > Longstrider's Shot > Hawk Shot > Aimed Shot > Aimed Shot > Aimed Shot > Aimed Shot > *repeat*
Points of interest
- On the way to the first boss the HR being in the back can hold aggro if everyone else goes down so the mobs don't go back to full health.
- During the turtle boss fight often enough the turtle doesn't slam as much even if everyone else is standing in it's face because it will sometimes rev up it's distant AoE attack to try and hit the HR.
Currently how the GF+OP combo stacks the suggested bonus would have to be quite high, and the other balance issues would still be present...
Band-aid or surgery?
“There are changes that can be made that don’t require coding...” - TriNitY
"No amount of coding will change human behavior" - TriNitY
Ongoing Issue: Legitmate Players Banned for Botting (Console) and the Future for "Dedicated" Players
Suggestions: (Implemented) \/\/ Rearrange Character on character Select Screen
"Add a Bard" because as cryptic likes to say is we must class balance! For the last two years, this has been told over and over. So what I am suggesting is look at other classes that could be improved for people to take into more dungeons. Ive had many thoughts on what classes and stuff like MOF CW make it do more debuffs, or make the Instigator path on the GWF party wide buffer and add debuffer. Wont suggest the warlock since they are already getting/recieved buffs, for M13. The one class and path that I think would help drastically is the Devotion Paladin. Now before all the DCs get mad and attack me saying "Devotions would replace DCs". It honestly would not.
Rework the devotion paladin so that it will "HEAL LESS, BUFF MORE." Do not make it of course on the level of a DC but close enough that people would be interested in Devotion Paladins. Now I know what some people are thinking right now because it came to my own mind. "Hey well now we won't have two DC problems, but we will have two OP problems!" Somewhat true except the fact that Devotion Paladin is NOT a tank. While the DCs are both Buffers and have no other category. OPs are two whole different classes in one. There is a fantastic thread that a lot of Devotion Paladins including myself have made suggestions over the last two years to change devotion to make it more viable to people.
I am pretty sure it would greatly help the whole two DC problems. Because I saw in zone chat of P.E a person was looking for "(TWO)" DCs for a Grey Wolf Den, and of course they had to be 12k+ for it. It is getting out of hand and I am giving a possible solution to this problem.
https://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter#/discussion/1233567/heal-paladins-rework-suggestions-consolidated
If you have nothing nice to say than do not say it at all, and work together not against.
The DC in that group had loadouts for both. I think he ran DO for the most part, switching towards the end. I know he was using AA in the Ras Nsi fight as Partial Paralysis is such a pain without it. If I'm sole DC, I run DO until the final fight for that reason.
Within NW, the extra buffs provided by a 2nd DC and having an additional buffer such as a GF (another tank) will probably still outweigh running a more balanced group in NW due to the buffing and debuffing the party gets from running a 2nd DC and Tank class.
I like where you were going with this idea but I don't think it will work like you thought as I have seen this fail in other MMOs as well.
Best way to resolve this issue is make other buffing classes stronger than a 2nd DC.
MoF Buffer:
1) Increase the damage buff from Smolder for Swath from 20% to 50%
2) Change the buff for Chaos Magic so it always process either 30% damage or 25% increase to Crit Sev with a 10% increase to Crit Chance
3) Modify the feat in the Renegade to add a buff/debuff feature to Sorching Burst where targets hit by it will have their DR reduce by 10% or something along those lines.
Templock
1) Mod 13 Updates
2) Whenever the SW lifesteal a target, that target DR is reduced by 10% and damage to the target is increased by 10%
GWF:
1) Create a full on buffing/debuffing GWF build (they need more than a DPS build)
I'm sorry but 2 DC is not needed in this game. It makes the content quicker but it also leaves out other players due to the game being vastly imbalanced.
You keep bringing up the same argument which is you want to buff the classes you enjoy playing to out perform the dc as a buff/debuffer. That may make you happy (who doesn't want to get buffed?), but it does nothing for the overall population, which is getting more dps classes in the party.
And fyi, GWF needs no help getting into a dungeon group, if the other dps classes performed on par with GWFs, they wouldn't be QQing they can't get into a party. GWF has two builds but no one wants them to play tank no different than how no one wants a dc to go full heals. I remember when TR was the single target king, if that was still the case they'd be welcome additions in tong (because face it, even a good OP can clear the trash on the way to the bosses and OP technically doesn't have a DPS tree).
I'd recommend you take your argument elsewhere and either bang the "we need more viable options for each class" drum or that we need to ballance dps across classes. But this argument your making confuses 3 distinct ideologies and fails to resolve the core reason for the qq.
So again i state fix the rewards for Hero's Accord so that it becomes worthwhile to do it and people will. Even if that means introducing a mechanic as proposed by @adinosii where certain roles that are queued get buffs/nerfs to enforce class roles. No one queues the meta for RQED because the reward + effort to make a meta party offsets the speed benefit of a private queue and yet it does not infringe on my ability to play with my friends in a private queue if i want to.
The funny thing is most people have a hard time dealing with change; I look forward to it.
Whatever the changes the devs have, good or bad, I look forward to it as it offers players a chance to see how good they truly are: are you a one trick pony or a player that can adept and still be as effective.
As for a fix; I'm all for a full game revamp. Anything else is just patchwork until the devs have no real choice but to revamp the game.
ESO did this, DCUO did this, WOW, etc...it is only a matter of time before NW does this as well.
I do a lot of ToNG runs, mostly in 2 DC groups, but also the occasional run with me as the only DC. I have been keeping some records, and my experience is like this: A well-geared group with ACDC/DODC/OP/dps/any completes TNG in 25 minutes on the average. An equally well-geared group of DC/OP/dps/any/any takes 30 minutes on the average. That's all. A 5-minute difference in run times.
Now, having 2 DCs does matter in "borderline" groups - undergeared or less/skilled DPSers may not be able to kill Orcus before the tempHP pool of the "ball guy" finishes, unless they get buffed by 2 DCs.
Sorry, that's life - if you require 2 DCs to buff you, you are just not ready for ToNG yet.
If I may a small travel in time.
At the beginning of the game there were only 4 classes (yes, yes) . GF with dps/tank/buff path - Cleric - CW (Renegade buff/ aoe dps - Thauma debuff/ aoe dps - Oppressor control and... less dps) and TR with massive damage on single target. As you see we had well defined roles. CW was there to "control" (kill) the crowds of mobs, dc was to support/mitigate/heal,GF was there to aggro and take damage and Tr was hugging the boss driving it to its death.
Module after module though and with every developer (team) leaving and joining they brought their ideas of what they thought the classes should be, how the dungeons should be etc etc and over time we are left with incomplete skills and overlapping or exaggerated roles.
Think of today. Lets compare the 2 tanks for example in their traditional roles. Paladin and GF. Paladin offers Aura of courage that can be anything from 25% to 40% of your own damage, it shares power, it gives boost to skills cooldowns with wisdom... can tank, aggro and can protect. What does GF offer? ITF and aggro/tank and protect. Maybe a small debuff here and there too. Now do you see the main difference? For a GF to be "viable" they have to switch to a dps setup which is fine if you like it, but shouldn't be forced by the game in order to get in runs. Don't get me wrong I like both classes and I mean no offense to the class but just stating the obvious and not trying to start a nerf this buff that conversation.
What IF... the gf had similar buffs in quality while making sure they don't stack with the ones from the paladin. For example change a passive to be something like "Valorous Energy: Team mates deal a % of their power as extra damage" (like aura of courage but based on power) while making sure one doesn't outperform the other. At that point the role of the tank would go to... the better player. NOT THE BETTER CLASS.
Same for dps. The devs can make two classes deal a lot more damage to the bosses and let’s call them boss DPS. TR / GWF. They should have the same potential for single target attacks upon build and played right. Both classes should have reduce aoe attack damage, so again at that point a group would pick the better player for the role and not the better class.
Aoe damage: Add a bit more mobs to the dungeons when needed and have CW, SW, HR have equal, increased aoe damage output and not so much in single target.
Buffing/healing: Give DC/Devo paladin/SW Temp the same quality of buffs through different ways/mechanics. Make sure 2 same classes don't stack and??? Again the party will choose the better player. (start noticing the pattern?)
Debuffing: Have a CW/HR path excel but remove any damage buffs and add a cost to aoe Damage, remove debuffs from other classes/items.
The above is just an example to demonstrate role balance and NOT a suggestion. I don't have an opinion really as to which class should play what role as long as it’s well defined and stated even in the character creation screen, so us players can read what a class supposed to do (and not to do). I'm sure there are better ways to do it or even utilize the paths for different aspects. My point is to have well defined roles.
If that happens, players will feel free to choose the class based on what they like. This also eliminates a lot of the current problems we have in the game. Why have 2 dc as buffers when all 3 classes offer similar buff?? Why ask only for gwf as main dps? There won't be anymore FotM classes and so on..
Also there is a reward/penalty for the choices the party leader makes. You put cw/sw together? Aoe will melt… boss fight will take longer. Want to stack tr/gwf? Boss will go fast… but mobs will slow you down a lot. You can take 2 buffers but no debuffs at all, and so on. So with this system all classes have equal chance and something to make them desirable and let the better player win.
Again this is not a suggestion, as the way the problem has grown it needs a lot more than 3-4 paragraphs from a random player in a random post, but just a small theoretical example to demonstrate the (what I think) underlying problem is.
The devs/management needs to take a small break from the changes and redefine the classes. Also have stronger management policies when it comes to decisions about the class roles. There should be a policy that ALL devs, current and future would follow and not deviate from that based on what they think. Because when they leave.. we get stuck with it. (mod 6 anyone?)
I m looking forward to the day that in LFG and various channels, we will see
LF for Buffer for t9 and not... LF 2 dc
LF boss DPS for SP and not LF gwf
LF tank... and not LF for OP
If we replace the meta with a 14k GF and a 14K healidon what happens? Which is hardly borderline given the ilvl requirement of 12K. The solution should has to account for these folks.
However your solutions are all the same, buff the classes you play and don't address the 1 dps meta at all because you don't mind playing a support role. For my friends that are dps TRs, SWs, and CWs they will still be left out and qq'ing.
Change will come, it always does. When something is perfect, people try to improve it and restart the tweaking machine. That's just nature. But instead of making a compromise in your solution, evolve it and specify what you want them to do. By compromising your are essentially relieving the devs from the pressure of expectation. If you demand excellence maybe you'll get 60% of it, if you try to meet them in the middle your going to get 40% of what was possible because you've already given them license to short change you with effort. Let's work together to turn the conversation away from destroying the 2 dc meta, and make sure people and dev's understand that's not the problem. The problem for the dps folks that are qqing because they can't get into a party is a 4 support 1 dps meta. If we don't address the root cause, we will just start another lynch mob after they nerf dc. We will be having this same conversation about OPs and GFs next mod.
I had 20-25min runs with me being the only DC (DO), we had an SW,HR,OP and CW. No GWF, no GF for buffs either. The SW was insane, same with HR.
It was a random group from some PvE channel, and it was the best run I had, fast, no wipes either.
Where many times with the "meta comp" we wiped 10 times at the end lol.
YouTube
That is the type of change I want to see. It is not about support or DPS it is about expanding the game and fixing the imbalance in the game. It about providing us options and giving us more as players. I'm all for that.
The way to curb going with more support is to have support buff/debuff overwrite each other. This would encourage more DPS over another support player. Reducing the effectiveness of Lifesteal while in a group would encourage healers healing. As for tanks, ensure that any class that can tank can tank all content.
I think every class already has multiple roles available, the biggest issue is that the need for the secondary role is not there. If you don't need healers and you don't need controllers you limit the "viable" build options to three tank (the one shot kill is the only thing that keeps tanks in demand), buff/debuff, and dps. You make controller and heals viable, the problem is resolved without "buffing" or "nerfing" classes
GF - Tank, Buff/Debuff, DPS
DC - Healer, Buff/Debuff, moderate DPS
CW - Controller, DPS, Buff/Debuff
GWF - Tank, DPS
TR - Controller, DPS
HR - Controller, Buff/Debuff, DPS
SW - DPS, Healer
OP - Tank, Healer
Compare the 2 tanks on buffing abilities.
Compare the 3 "healers" in heal / buffing.
My point was to make the roles equal and let players choose what ever class they like.
Is there a specific reason why a DC can buff for 120% and the sw/devo paladin far less? I can understand that they can compensate with damage and debuff but still is not enough...
Is there a reason that the OP can buff that much while the GF can't (both being tanks) and at that point is best to be dps as a gf?
Or if that's the case, the devs should be clear and consistent . Yes this is how it is and that's how it will remain. The only thing that should change is how much a skill deals damage or a buff boosts damage/mitigation to adjust for the the class balance at that point.
Again my post was just an example, don't take it to the letter. My point was that the game needs to define the roles and freeze them without major changes over time so we can then decide what we all like to play and not change with every module. (I don't but a lot of people do in order to get in runs and that leads to bad players and poor gameplay as its boring to play something you don't like).
Some classes do some things better than other classes, or at least, they do it in a different way.
http://dnd.wizards.com/dungeons-and-dragons/what-is-dnd/classes/cleric
Divine magic, as the name suggests, is the power of the gods, flowing from them into the world. Clerics are conduits for that power, manifesting it as miraculous effects. The gods don’t grant this power lightly or to everyone who seeks it, but only to those they choose to fulfill a high calling. Harnessing divine magic doesn’t rely on study or training. A cleric might learn formulaic prayers and ancient rites, but ultimately the ability to cast cleric spells relies on devotion and an intuitive understanding of a deity’s wishes.
Clerics combine the helpful magic of healing and inspiring their allies with spells that harm and hinder foes. They can inspire awe and dread, lay curses of plague or poison, and even call down flames from heaven to consume their enemies. And sometimes evildoers benefit most from a mace to the head, so clerics don’t neglect combat training and can wade into a melee.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paladin_(character_class)
In game terms, a Paladin is thus typically a Warrior character first and foremost, proficient with heavy arms and armor. Yet at the same time a Paladin is gifted with blessings or magical capabilities such as healing, protection, and countering evil magic (including undead), albeit to a lesser degree than a true priest or cleric. His (or her) outlook would typically be that of a militant defender of his faith, sometimes crossing over into cleric, missionary, zealot, or inquisitor territory.
http://dnd.wizards.com/dungeons-and-dragons/what-is-dnd/classes/fighter
Fighters learn the basics of all combat styles. Every fighter can swing an axe, fence with a rapier, wield a longsword or a greatsword, use a bow, and even trap foes in a net with some degree of skill. Likewise, a fighter is adept with shields and every form of armor. Beyond that basic degree of familiarity, every fighter specializes in certain styles of combat. Some concentrate on archery, some on fighting with two weapons at once, and some on augmenting their martial skills with magic. This combination of broad general ability and extensive specialization makes fighters superior combatants on battlefields and in dungeons alike.
"Wizards are supreme magic-users, defined and united as a class by the spells they cast. Their magic conjures elementals from other planes of existence, glimpses the future, or turns slain foes into shambling zombies. Their mightiest spells change one substance into another or alter a creature’s form, open pathways to other planes of existence, or even kill with a single word."
I dont think that's what we do though.
"Rogues, When it comes to combat, rogues prioritize skill over brute strength. A rogue would rather make one precise strike, placing it exactly where the attack will hurt the target most, than wear an opponent down with many smaller strikes. They have an almost supernatural knack for avoiding danger, and a few rogues learn magical tricks to supplement their other abilities."
Not brute force yet, we are talking about the class with the highest power in the game that actually brute force a boss down.
as far as Clerics go...
"Clerics combine the helpful magic of healing and inspiring their allies with spells that harm and hinder foes. They can inspire awe and dread, lay curses of plague or poison, and even call down flames from heaven to consume their enemies. And sometimes evildoers benefit most from a mace to the head, so clerics don’t neglect combat training and can wade into a melee."
I don't really see buffing but I see Damage over time and debuff and dps in those words.
We could go on for other classes.. (a healer warlock?) By my D&D knowledge is not that great. I do know though that the game is D&D based and not D&D in the full meaning. Which means the game is influenced from D&D for its stories and quests and chars but that's the extend of it. As the Neverwinter title sais "Neverwinter is a free-to-play, action MMORPG based on the acclaimed Dungeons & Dragons fantasy roleplaying game. ... "
Cause after all if it was D&D... why all the changes in the classes over the 4 years.
One other thing, even in your words I don't see why a DC can buff more than a paladin or a paladin should buff less (as an example). All the class descriptions that I was reading, they never mentioned that a class can do something better than another.
This game has 8 class ( OP,GF,GWF,DC ,HR ,TR, SW & CW) with 3 path branches out and 2 variation. That makes 48 different role to play. Its a very broad and diverse range of classes to play with which makes this game interesting. Sadly it is not what it seems. Some classes out perform the rest by a huge diffrence and some synergy way too much with certain class. Some dungeon are badly designed that they hamper a certain class to play well. Developer realy need to iron out the performance and synergy between each classes and path so that everyone can play what they want without being excluded by the community. I m not talking about ilvl but class and their path balance. They also need to be more considerate of all the classes and their path when designing new dungeon. Just look at FBI. Anyone played as CW oppressor there? Or MSP 2nd boss, there isnt any room for player playing as archer to stand at max distance. Even so there will be people asking archer to fight point blank for the buff sake or archer are blamed for being selfish ( i dont blame them for saying that, i m blaming the bad class balance).
These is all result from an inconsiderate and poorly tested class balance by the developer that accumulated over the module. They should not have focus on certain class without really tested out the 48 variation. Even the game design such as dungeon and trial does affect the game play of each of the variation. The twin DC meta is born out of SVA and ever since, nearly all end game dungeon has been about this meta because they synergize way too well. If the developer ever design a dungeon that made trap that is so dangerous that intant kill anyone disregard of their defense or buff, u will start to see TR to be fotm of a party meta. Dungeon design is a factor too when it comes to class balance. The developer need to start draw out the board on which class excel too much or too little and which class did not synergy well or too well across the 48 variation. Its a big project but once the main issue is found and solve, the future class balance will be mostly minor adjustment.
I m sure they are many other class that feel excluded by the community which hamper them to really enjoy the content just because they want to play the class/path they want. I wonder how a player play Tomb of the 9 gods when the class they play isnt in the meta. Public que dont even pop. Oh u can say by joining a guild or channel, make ur own party, just play the meta class & etc but that does not really solve the issue. I hope the developer really bring in the real class balance where all class, including their sub path has equal synergy with each and every class and the performance difference between each class and path is reduced greatly. Also i hope there will be a well design dungeon that will consider each and every class in their variation to be playable on equal ground. That will ensure every player has the equal opportunity to play this game regardless of class/path they choose.