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Trickster Rogue Class Rework

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  • dakka#5493 dakka Member Posts: 2 Arc User
    I dont ever post here as I don't think they actually read these posts. I hardly ever see a dev or community rep replying to indicate they take these posts into consideration. However someone in my alliance suggested us TR's post to show our concerns.

    I have been playing a TR for a year, and every1 told me not to play a TR as they are not wanted endgame. I come from wow, and just assumed this would be addressed well before I got to end game. My last bout of upgrades were huge, i went from 13k to 14.5k+ IL hoping to increase my DPS somewhat. I swapped out tons of gear, and went for expensive BiS.

    Needless to say my DPS barely increased. I dont really have any worthwhile party buffs like OP/MOF/DC/DO/GF etc. I love playing my TR but I think its time I just gave it up. No one wants a TR in places like ToNG when you can have another DPS class instead. If I was a desirable class to be included in a party I would be content. I don't have to have best DPS from all classes, i just want to be a class that parties desire.

    Anyway, I am seriously considering defeat and just spending my time playing my OP. If I had spent a fraction of the effort to get him more powerful I would be a player that every party would love to have. Power sharing, tanking, healing, auras...so many reasons to want an OP. Can't think of a single reason to invite a TR (even thos i love the class).
  • talon1970talon1970 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 152 Arc User
    https://www.reddit.com/r/Neverwinter/comments/7gyy1l/i_regret_my_class_choice/

    https://www.reddit.com/r/Neverwinter/comments/7gn0jl/state_of_tr/

    https://www.reddit.com/r/Neverwinter/comments/7g2g1q/some_tr_advice_would_be_nice/

    Just a few topics from the last week, from reddit and they are all playing an pve Tr

    And they all asking for help, advice, or what they should do with their Toon.

    And most given advice from alot of people is: dumb it and play something properly.

    I don't know, but isn't that an huge sign in what kind of state the Tr in PvE is?

    And even if some good Trs are upping videos from their TonG/FBI runs to show the community: "Hey we are here, we could perform good, don't overlook us, pls."
    The majority will not introduce an Tr, bc of the stigma we have in PvE (too squishy, no party buff, medium AoE dps, "only good single dps", and so on..)

    For me it's easy, bc i don't pug (only some skirmishes), i am running dungeons only with the Guild/Alliance or FL, but i am thinking that is not the case for everyone.
    And if i see an Tr now with full Primal Gear (or some parts from it), i am also often thinking: "Was he/she really with their Tr in TonG/T9G or has he/she another class like an Dc (another support class) and bought the stuff from the vendor?"

    And i still bet the Tr is one of the most played beginner Class, but also one of the most fasted dumped class (unless you are playing PvP).

    So it is really, really time that we get an overlook, some minor changes, maybe also some Party Stuff, i don't want to become an total Overpowered Class, but to be an viable class.



  • caveckcaveck Member Posts: 38 Arc User
    Any update on this? Seriously, ANY sort of acknowledgement of TR's getting a rework would be more reassuring than you may know. That is, if it will actually happen. If you guys are truthfully working on our class, then can you please give us some sort of information on how or when it may be updated? At this point we are left twiddling our thumbs in hope that you guys are really trying to balance the class. I think we would much rather have a definite yes or no to this, instead of anxiously waiting and not knowing anything.
  • sirjimbofrancissirjimbofrancis Member Posts: 348 Arc User
    @miasmat @terramak @ambassadormolari
    Any word?
    Anyone want to tag other devs to try to coax an answer?
    Lilia Drakon - PVE Executioner TR
    She Looked Lvl 18

    Here is my Blog
  • demonmongerdemonmonger Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 3,350 Arc User
    You are asking for a rock to spew water...
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    I hate paying taxes! Why must I pay thousands of dollars in taxes when everything I buy is taxed anyways!
  • sirjimbofrancissirjimbofrancis Member Posts: 348 Arc User
    Well, then, @demonmonger , you can save your time not reading this thread instead of trolling.
    Lilia Drakon - PVE Executioner TR
    She Looked Lvl 18

    Here is my Blog
  • demonmongerdemonmonger Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 3,350 Arc User
    Just sayin it is a difficult task... we can't force a response from busy people
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    I hate paying taxes! Why must I pay thousands of dollars in taxes when everything I buy is taxed anyways!
  • jrdiiorio#8134 jrdiiorio Member Posts: 119 Arc User
    > @demonmonger said:
    > Just sayin it is a difficult task... we can't force a response from busy people

    Not sure I would say they are busy. They went from having an abundant amount of time during October bug month to reply and fix numerous issues. If they have the workforce to do that a few words regarding the status of the supposed rework isn’t much to ask.
    To be honest I would take their silence as a they have not done anything. It’s been like a year since they first said tr were next. A full year mankind can do many remarkable things but a rework isn’t one of them.
  • mageddo#6766 mageddo Member Posts: 60 Arc User
    > @jrdiiorio#8134 said:
    > > @demonmonger said:
    > > Just sayin it is a difficult task... we can't force a response from busy people
    >
    > Not sure I would say they are busy. They went from having an abundant amount of time during October bug month to reply and fix numerous issues. If they have the workforce to do that a few words regarding the status of the supposed rework isn’t much to ask.
    > To be honest I would take their silence as a they have not done anything. It’s been like a year since they first said tr were next. A full year mankind can do many remarkable things but a rework isn’t one of them.

    They don't have the manpower. Most of the dev team is working on the Magic the Gathering MMO they are releasing. Until they fill the positions for that game we can't have our devs back to focus on anything Neverwinter related.
  • paikospaikos Member Posts: 5 Arc User
    I remember reading a post a few months ago posted by one of the developers stating that they agree that a DPS GF should not do more single target than a TR. I'll have to try to find the post again as I cannot remember who said it. However, in the current state of things dps GF are doing more single target damage than a TR. Not only that, the TR class has been riddled with bugs and left in a state that they often get excluded or looked down upon. People on console ask for a "hdps" (high dps), but specifically only seek out GWF, dps GF, or HR. Since the game launched on PS4 people have looked down upon TR players as a source for DPS in PVE. There has yet to be a module on PS4 where TR players weren't judged, excluded from groups, or ridiculed simply because of the class they were playing. The class is filled with bugs and continues to receive nerfs to pve performance as a result of their performance in pvp.

    I second rjc with "In this circumstance, we can say TR is in need of a buff because 98% of all TRs work twice as hard to simply match a half decent GWF or DPS GF." This is such an accurate statement for the case of the TR in PVE. TR are strictly a DPS class and are supposed to be masters of single target and boss killers, yet they are outperformed in single target by the DPS spec of a, primarily, tank class. I mean, you look at GF and they have the choice to: be the highest single target damage dealers with conquerer, be a great tank with protector, or take more of a buffing/support route with tactician. Iron Vanguard or SwordMaster are both useful paths depending on what you want to do with the GF. Then you look at the TR: nobody realistically picks whisper knife for PVE. Any sort of support/dps given by whisper knife is weak compared to the similar support options other classes can bring while still being able to do decent DPS. Master Infiltrator is really your only option. Saboteur is ok for AOE, but is easily outperformed by other classes. Most of Scoundrel is a joke, especially considering more and more enemies are becoming CC-imune. I can't really think of any scenario where the capstone for Scoundrel is useful. Especially considering this occurs every 15 seconds, which is such a long period of time for something so weak and lacklustre. Executioner is really your best option, but even that is buggy and outshone by the Conquerer DPS GFs.

    Changes to SW are needed and nobody is arguing that. But TR players deserve to hear if anything is being done to improve the class that has been promised a rework for so long now. When Neverwinter launched on PS4 SW were super overpowered with their soul puppet build. TR players were denied group invites, kicked from dungeons, and told to reroll to another class. Since then, SW has been nerfed and does need changes, but TR deserves the love i have yet to see since console PS4 launch.

    Heres to hoping for a response :smile:
  • talon1970talon1970 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 152 Arc User
    @paikos

    Nerfing other classes to bring us to an better place, couldn't be the solution, bc everyone deserves that his favorite class performs as good as possible.
    We all have the same investments, be it enchants, mounts, companions..the whole package.

    I had also an short discussion (again) in my guild, about the state of the (PvE) Tr and an mate mentioned: "I don't see the point actually to buff the Tr, bc i was running TonG/T9G with (a well known Tr on Pc wich is maybe able to outperform 99% of the Tr community) and if the Tr would be buffed, he would be able to wreck every other dps class, and the Tr would be nerfed again."

    My respond was: " Yes i agree, but have you inspect him, is there an huge different from the gear between him and me? And why could he perform that good and i cannot? Personal skill, personal weakness."

    And this is an mayor point for me, even if you are using well known, or the "best" builds actually for an Tr, your focus on your gear is arpen, crit, recovery and power, you have high enchants, fovourite leg mount and so on, there are still only a small minority, performing really good (i am not), but the mayority are still struggling with the complexity of the rotation, to bring on the biggest dps output on point, when all buffs and debuffs are up.

    And here i agree with @rjc9000 i have most the time, the feeling, i have to give 100 or 200% during an run, be it msp, Fbi and tonG, not to upset my guildmates, or people i am able to run with, bc guildis invite them to an run, and i am in as only dps class, bc in the time they are with me, they could do maybe two TonG runs.
  • paikospaikos Member Posts: 5 Arc User
    @talon1970

    I apologize for misleading you to think I was suggesting nerfing another class as a solution to the problem. I do not believe calling for a nerf is a solution at all, because I agree that the solution isn’t making something currently strong completely useless. I mean, how often do you see scourge warlocks running a soul puppet build following the nerf? I don’t want conquerer GF to be nerfed to the point where it isn’t used anymore like the soul puppet build. Or even to the point where it is used, but not efficient in a group. That wasn’t my point and again, I apologize.

    I was using it as one point of comparison since it currently has the highest single target damage potential, which I do personally believe TR’s should. Do I think this should be achieved through just nerfing the class that holds the current spot? No. My point was that other paragons and paths can be quite useful depending on the play style of the individual and still work well in a group. I know not all are dps oriented, my point was more so that they have options still based on what they want to do or what they enjoy. Meanwhile, I do not believe that the TR is as free to choose the paragon whatever paragon they please without hindering themselves. It’s clear the efficiency and damage potential of each paragon differ, with some being more lacklustre than the others. I think they do need a buff, they need some of the major bugs hindering their performance addressed, and they need the other paragons, and even the other path (whisperknife), to be reworked into other efficient options rather than a hinderance to performance and efficiency of the class as a dps. Ultimately, they need some love.
  • sirjimbofrancissirjimbofrancis Member Posts: 348 Arc User
    edited December 2017
    etelgrin said:

    rjc9000 said:

    etelgrin said:

    ... You hardly can suck at 15k TIL on GWF because most of times you only use Hidden Daggers, press one of the atwills mouse buttons, tab occasionally and use indomitable battle strike when possible lol and will do. And people will rather pick GWF cause its easy to play than hard to master TR.

    Even when you expect very little from GWFs, they always find a way to let you down.
    etelgrin said:

    idk why's the cry, TR is one of the strongest class, in PvE in TONG, one of the fastest run involved TR (actually two TRs). Although one would do too. Then HR or before TR the HR, it really depends on how personal build it is also one of the best choice then, only then, is the GWF before all of it, tops the Guardian Fighter of course.

    In regards to using (x) or (y) players from speedrun videos as a gague for a class' strength...

    Do we judge the class based off (x), citing that (x) is already good enough and that the rest of the playerbase needs to gid gud? Or do say that these exceptional players are outliers and don't represent the experience of 98% of the class' playerbase?

    If we look at the TR's relative strength in the former way, then we can say that TR is fine and people need to git gud like the princess TR.
    If we look at the TR's relative strength in the latter way, then we exclude princess TR from our comparisons. In this circumstance, we can say TR is in need of a buff because 98% of all TRs work twice as hard to simply match a half decent GWF or DPS GF.

    This can be applied to CW. If you've been looking around the CW forums, you'll hear the CWs complaining that they're useless, can't do as much damage as GWFs despite their efforts, and that CW is need of buffs. Yet, we get people like Soup, Freedom, Mystik, etc matching/beating comparable GWFs/HRs/DPS GFs.

    Do we say CW is fine because of the efforts of these CWs, or do we say that these players are outliers and that CWs need a buff overall for the average CW to match the average GWF?

    It all depends on how you view the class' overall strength.
    I didn't even refer to any video of some bis players rolling over tong. We play in comp DPS/buff GF, me SW buff/dps, DO DC, AC DC and OP Prot tank, the very same group we exchange DPSoBuffo GF for our TR (about 15k+ til, we are all about 15k), and fastest runs we have are like this, about 20 minutes to 25 minutes depending on the traps too and if we screw or smoke during run. Thats all, sometimes they replace me for TR and its even faster, cause generally TR and GF bursts/procs hits like truck and buffs from DCs and OPs are enough. Our TR hits with SoD procs for 250 mil, and GF hits for like 30 mil Griffons or more I haven't checked the GF specifically cause there were no reasons he is doing great anyways.
    Please show me a video or screen shot from mod 12.5 where a TR's SoD hit 250 million.

    Apart from that, you are comparing a buff meta group. Substitute an equivalent HR or a GWF and see how much time it takes. Again, no one is saying TRs aren't viable. I'll say it again- NO ONE IS SAYING TRS ARENT VIABLE.

    What we are saying is that because every thing a TR does, 3 other classes do better, with less effort, TRs are not sought after for pve content, and, in fact, are actively avoided.
    Lilia Drakon - PVE Executioner TR
    She Looked Lvl 18

    Here is my Blog
  • lordnagy#1603 lordnagy Member Posts: 177 Arc User
    Worse thing this game did was allow pvp. Most class nerfs are a result of pvp imbalance. The nerf of course affects pve, don’t believe me? There’s two pages of disgruntled TRs that prove it...
  • jappethebreadjappethebread Member Posts: 82 Arc User
    I've hit 21 million with my SoD in Avatar of Orcus fight. I'm 16.5k TR and have yet to see a TR on Xbox who does more dps than me. I too would like to see that 250 million proc because if it's true I have a LOT to improve on my build and would like to know how this is achieved.
  • schietindebuxschietindebux Member Posts: 4,292 Arc User
    edited December 2017
    I witnessed 10mio procs regularly in a row 10-10-10-10mio on bosses in a moderat group without maxed setup, never seomthing like 250mio.
    From my pov the reason why things are like now and a lot of TR struggle in PVE, compared to the mass of GWF player, is the fact that the builds some player run and the knoweledge (rotations/feats etc) they use is much more kept as a secret compared to the one build every GWF on the server runs...all Destroyer, all with nearly the same feats and feature, all with the same 3-4 encounter... since ages.
    I met tons of TR´s running with screwed setups (maybe PVP), only a handfull of them did fine in PVE, and very few outnumbered and outperformed everything I ever saw before in PVE.
    A rework might be needed, but maybe some should work on their build before claiming they tried everything and there is no option to be good, in case there obviously is a way to be at least on par with other classes.
    Maybe some TR´s out there on PC should start to share some knoweledge, if there are any? And if there are bugs involved to deal those high ammounts , it is legit to ask for fixes and buffs.

    I would not try to copy most of the builds shown on youtube or mmo minds (in general), since a lot of those builds seem to be more like an opinion and far away from an optimized build for PVE, at least that´s my impression on the classes I run. A lot stuff that is misleading, and a lot of that generated from platforms, since those guys simply can´t check their build accurately (no tools to do so).
    Post edited by schietindebux on
  • nerfcc#8605 nerfcc Member Posts: 35 Arc User
    Pve sucks in every game but even more so in this one. If you play this game on console I kind of get it. But if you play this game for pve on pc wtf are you doing.
  • schietindebuxschietindebux Member Posts: 4,292 Arc User
    edited December 2017
    rjc9000 said:


    A rework might be needed, but maybe some should work on their build before claiming they tried everything and there is no option to be good, in case there obviously is a way to be at least on par with other classes.
    Maybe some TR´s out there on PC should start to share some knoweledge, if there are any?

    They already have.

    @sirjimbofrancis keeps a blog detailing tips and tricks on how to get better at TR.
    Galactic runs a Youtube channel where I recall hearing he shares his build there.
    Blur, Janne, etc. all regularly contribute on the TR forums and on Reddit to TR improvement.
    Yes I saw some of those guides, no clue if they are best choice.
    Maybe it would help to filter the good ones from the bad and simply read those guides to improve your build, if possible.
    If I compare those SoD procs to other striker classes, there are not many classes that are capable to proc every 6 seconds a 10 mio hit on a boss beside a maxed GF, running KC + GW, activating 20 multiplier/selfbuffs before doing so ( I fail desperately most time)
    I know it can be much more than 10mio, but that´s what I got on my radar/ACT.
    Even a GWF is not able to do so from the last runs I screened, all I saw are top hits for 4-10 mio IBS in a moderate buffer group on PC.
    And those bossfights seem to last longer with most of those "Hulk-smasher" compared to some Hunter and TR, providing debuffs on top for the hole group.

    Imo GWF are prefered, because they are tanky, kill trash in seconds and can facetank some bosses on top of hdps, somehow easy going and a safe way to play that dungeon.
    They are not the only top dps in focus damage and in my book some classes do better (except warlock...), at least that´s my impression.
  • gromovnipljesak#8234 gromovnipljesak Member Posts: 1,050 Arc User
    @schietindebux
    GWFs are preferred because they're the standard class. The dude with the big sword. Look at Dark souls, Darksiders, any of the FF games... it's always someone with a big HAMSTER sword. A person who has just started playing will play it because it's the most common class in the games - every RPG game has a "big effin sword" class. And people gravitate towards what's familiar.
    It's highly unlikely that people will change class once they're used to the class they've already leveled, especially if they play casually. The only thing that can drive people away from the class is the SW tier bs that's going on atm.

    All classes can bring DPS in at least one dungeon, GWFs are just versatile. What other DPS classes need is the opposite of their class definition. For example, TRs are usually strictly single target due to lack of spammable AOE (with the exception of blade flurry). Give them a tool they can use for AoE and you'll have a smaller problem. CWs have the same problem, but to a much lesser extent.

    Right now, looking at people I know, every class has a really, REALLY good player. And the thing is, some classes are harder to play, some are easier. It's just a fact that easier class to play will have more "good" players. So yeah.
  • sirjimbofrancissirjimbofrancis Member Posts: 348 Arc User
    @gromovnipljesak#8234 @schietindebux

    Even the best TRs, if they hit on all cylinders and don’t make a mistake, will have trouble keeping up with an equally geared and skilled HR, GF, GWF, or CW.

    The problem is that TRs (especially executioners) don’t scale well at endgame content. The boss dies or leaves in under 6 seconds? No SoD. No time to build up bleed stacks (which is where most of our damage comes from) because it takes 3 full duelist flurry rounds to stack them. And, in our rotations, if we get interrupted, it takes us much longer to recover. Most of our best encounter powers have 18 second cooldowns.

    Some of us can put out good damage, especially in a buff group. But, that isn’t a very good indicator is it? A redcap wielding a dead fish looks good in that scenario.

    And, no one is saying that TRs aren’t viable. It’s just that, since we are 3rd or 4th down the list in every category, we aren’t desired in parties. That is a problem.

    The fact of the matter is that TRs need a rework, have been continually promised one for over a year, and now can’t even get one person to so much as give us a good morning.

    That’s messed up.
    Lilia Drakon - PVE Executioner TR
    She Looked Lvl 18

    Here is my Blog
  • sirjimbofrancissirjimbofrancis Member Posts: 348 Arc User
    > @nerfcc#8605 said:
    > Pve sucks in every game but even more so in this one. If you play this game on console I kind of get it. But if you play this game for pve on pc wtf are you doing.

    Oh, look. A pvper who is afraid of TRs getting a rework. SHOCKING.

    I believe the general consensus is that the PVP content is not nearly as fun.
    Because, and I gotta point out, that a whole lot more people play this game, on PC, for PVE content than if you count up all the PC PVPers together. All, like, 20 of them.
    Lilia Drakon - PVE Executioner TR
    She Looked Lvl 18

    Here is my Blog
  • micky1p00micky1p00 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 3,550 Arc User
    edited December 2017

    Pve sucks in every game but even more so in this one. If you play this game on console I kind of get it. But if you play this game for pve on pc wtf are you doing.

    If you play NW for PvP, WTF are you doing ??
    Come to CS, Dota, SC2, pubg. If you must have MMO, then I guess GW2? BUt NW... Where PvP on PC is deader than these forums.... The 10 usual keep it up and all the rest gave up long ago...

    (No offense to other pvpers, but I've rephrased the quoted post)
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