i didnt understand. full exaltation gives allmost 50% DR, so it only works on 20% of the damage and reduce total damage by 10%? and it canot be negated? even piercing damage?
I don't know. I think it is even more complicated than that. If I understand correctly some powers give layer 2 damage reduction; and others give layer 1 damage reduction that cannot be mitigated by ArP, but can be mitigated by enemy powers that "increase damage taken" (like CW ray of enfeeblement I assume). I do not know which one exaltation is. My guess would be that it is on layer 1 and acts like Break the Spirit, but someone else will be able to confirm.
Also @miyanaa I have a question for you: you seem to like negation for your DC, yet you seem not to like defence. Since you do not stack defence due to all the ArP going around on the enemies (presumably), why do you favour negation over other enchants? Negation, just like defence, buffs DR which can be mitigated by ArP.
Tbh Im not the kind of person who counts everything, who cares about all those % and all that talk you guys are having right now xD I seriously dont find it fun, I prefer to just play the game. And thats how I test things too - I get an item/enchant and test it in game. 1v1 for hours or go fight BiS players in 5v5. And THAT kind of testing tells me much, much more about the certain item and how good it is, not counting percentage of DR or all the other cr*p :P Simply cause as we know many tooltips were/are so broken and they dont really tell how things truly work or proc.. So I rather not waste my time on it.
So the reason why I prefer Negation in this mod is cause it makes you more tanky. I tested stacking defense before and it doesnt make me as tanky as just wearing Negation. Why? No damn clue and I dont care xD All I know is that I dont die much and I do well in PvP having the stats that I have and my gear.
Example is Terror enchant. I was first BiS DC in PvP who used it many mods ago, and people told me its useless, it doesnt do anything good blablabla. And few weeks later all DCs were having it. Why? I dont know, maybe cause debuff and root was rly useful for a support class lol.
In my opinion what makes us good players is how we play, how good we are in game, not how much theory we know.
If anyone is interested about where I got the 0.2 multiplier from above, here it the source (hopefully it is correct information):
"DR cap is 80% and is what I refer to as Layer 1. There is also a secondary layer of DR that accounts for the remaining 20% of DR and it is referred to as Layer 2. The secondary layer goes from 0 – 100% which includes buffs that come from all sources such as Holy Ground, Negation, and any additional DR buffs. It is very important to understand that Negation buff cannot be negated by any source or any circumstance as it is a temporary buff that does not come from stats. This is the reason why it works so well in PVP. With that said, Negation’s true DR value is actually (30/100) * 20 = 6% DR on Layer 2. This means my total DR that I get a benefit from is Layer 1 (80%) + Layer 2 (6%) which comes to a grand total of 86% DR on my character. Now my current Layer 1 DR in the game is 89%, which means that when all is said and done, I have 95% total DR. The interesting part about this is that we must assume that enemies have about -15% DR reduction whenever they hit you. Some enemies may have even more, but on average I’d say you can expect to have your DR reduced. So the way the reduction works is like this, Layer 1 (89% – 15%) = 74%. Now you add Layer 2 (6%) to that and you get your final DR of 80% after reduction."
layer 1: ac and defence, affected by armor pen layer 2: ALL defence buffs, from enchants, passive, feats etc... Not affected by armor pen layer 3: environment modifier ex: pvp dammage reduction (tenacity) NOt affected by armor pen
The dammage received equation goes like that:
D : Dammage output original from ennemy L1: % dammage reduction total from Layer 1 L2: % dammage reduction total from Layer 2 L3: % dammage reduciton total from Layer 3
Dammage receive = (DL2-(DL2 * L1)) = dammage received after ALL layers of dammage reduction
EX; D : 1000 L1 : 40 % DR - 25% ARP = 15% DR L2: 14% from foresignt + 5% from feat Have fait = 19% this is aprox, the equation goes: (1.02 *1.02 *1.02 *1.02 *1.05) + 0.05 = 18.7% L3: 40%
@miyanaa This game is mathematics with a dodge option. So I think its important to understand the math before doing a build. Your talking about skill, but skill with good build own skill with random build.
@nezdin#5514 Here is the math for dammage received
D : dammage output by ennemy (original dammage)
L1 : DR from AC and defence - ARP L2: DR from feat, boon, enchants L3 : DR from tenacity (now a flat 40%)
DL3 = D - (D * L3) = dammage after L3 DL2 = DL3 - (DL3 * L2) = Dammage after L2
Dammage received = DL2 - (Dl2 * L1)
EX:
D : 1000 L1: 40%DR - 25%ARP = 15% L2: Foresight 13.7%, feat Have faith 5% = 18.7% L3: 40%
(1) Do debuffs that reduce enemy damage resistance like Divine Glow or CW Ray of Enfeeblement apply to L2 (and not to L1) then? So our DR buffs could be mitigated in this case.
(2) If we assume that enemy has enough ArP to reduce all our L1 DR, then the formula reduces to:
D*(1-L3)*(1-L2) = D*0.6*(1-L2)
But this implies that if I have 10 stacks of T.Negation (=+30 L2 DR) + AS + HG + Divine Glow I actually will receive exactly 0 damage unless someone debuffs me. Is this correct? I am surprised if it is actually possible to reach this outcome.
(1) Do debuffs that reduce enemy damage resistance like Divine Glow or CW Ray of Enfeeblement apply to L2 (and not to L1) then? So our DR buffs could be mitigated in this case.
(2) If we assume that enemy has enough ArP to reduce all our L1 DR, then the formula reduces to:
D*(1-L3)*(1-L2) = D*0.6*(1-L2)
But this implies that if I have 10 stacks of T.Negation (=+30 L2 DR) + AS + HG + Divine Glow I actually will receive exactly 0 damage unless someone debuffs me. Is this correct? I am surprised if it is actually possible to reach this outcome.
1) All DR reduction is apply on L1 only. The onlu skill in the game that dont give a *** about anything is SOD.
2) ARP will affect only L1 and L1 cannot go under 0. ex: 80% arp vs 30% DR = 0%DR not -50% DR. in case DR= 0 for L1 because of ARP the equation would be:
(D- (D * L3)) - ((D- (D * L3)) * L2)
3) Concerning AS, Negation, and such: negation and buff are in L2 but all skill DR (like AS, HG and the rest ) are all independant layer:
lets get the example from my previous post:
D : 1000 L1: 40%DR - 25%ARP = 15% L2: Foresight 13.7%, feat Have faith 5% = 18.7% L3: 40%
(1) OK thanks, so DG PoD etc work like extra ArP then. Useful to know!
(3) Thanks for the example - I just noticed you included an example of that in your previous message too but I failed to notice it; my bad. So basically, all damage reduction layers are multiplicative.
On (2) yes, I already accounted for L1 = max{0, DR - RI} and set L1 = 0. (I just factorised you equation, so they are identical).
Thanks for the great info! Not sure where Rdeviant (the comment he posted in the link I provided) got this 0.2 multiplier from...weird.
Comments
Aelan Icebleed (CW)
Where are you coming up with 15% DR reduction ? Is that in PVE ?
His example of 15% is PvE yes. You can replace it with whatever number you like 50, 100, 120% with the conclusion about negation unchanged.
Aelan Icebleed (CW)
I seriously dont find it fun, I prefer to just play the game. And thats how I test things too - I get an item/enchant and test it in game. 1v1 for hours or go fight BiS players in 5v5.
And THAT kind of testing tells me much, much more about the certain item and how good it is, not counting percentage of DR or all the other cr*p :P
Simply cause as we know many tooltips were/are so broken and they dont really tell how things truly work or proc.. So I rather not waste my time on it.
So the reason why I prefer Negation in this mod is cause it makes you more tanky. I tested stacking defense before and it doesnt make me as tanky as just wearing Negation. Why? No damn clue and I dont care xD All I know is that I dont die much and I do well in PvP having the stats that I have and my gear.
Example is Terror enchant. I was first BiS DC in PvP who used it many mods ago, and people told me its useless, it doesnt do anything good blablabla. And few weeks later all DCs were having it. Why? I dont know, maybe cause debuff and root was rly useful for a support class lol.
In my opinion what makes us good players is how we play, how good we are in game, not how much theory we know.
YouTube
layer 1: ac and defence, affected by armor pen
layer 2: ALL defence buffs, from enchants, passive, feats etc... Not affected by armor pen
layer 3: environment modifier ex: pvp dammage reduction (tenacity) NOt affected by armor pen
The dammage received equation goes like that:
D : Dammage output original from ennemy
L1: % dammage reduction total from Layer 1
L2: % dammage reduction total from Layer 2
L3: % dammage reduciton total from Layer 3
DL3 = (D - (D * L3)) = dammage output after L3
DL2 = (DL3 - (DL3 * L2)) = dammage output after L2
Dammage receive = (DL2-(DL2 * L1)) = dammage received after ALL layers of dammage reduction
EX;
D : 1000
L1 : 40 % DR - 25% ARP = 15% DR
L2: 14% from foresignt + 5% from feat Have fait = 19% this is aprox, the equation goes: (1.02 *1.02 *1.02 *1.02 *1.05) + 0.05 = 18.7%
L3: 40%
DL3 = 1000-(1000*0.4) = 600 ( the tenacity pvp)
DL2 = 600-(600*0.19) = 486 (enchant, passive, feat etc)
Dammage received = 486 - (486*0.15) = 413 (defence and AC)
Santa Claus --GF
Gargamel --CW
This game is mathematics with a dodge option. So I think its important to understand the math before doing a build. Your talking about skill, but skill with good build own skill with random build.
@nezdin#5514
Here is the math for dammage received
D : dammage output by ennemy (original dammage)
L1 : DR from AC and defence - ARP
L2: DR from feat, boon, enchants
L3 : DR from tenacity (now a flat 40%)
DL3 = D - (D * L3) = dammage after L3
DL2 = DL3 - (DL3 * L2) = Dammage after L2
Dammage received = DL2 - (Dl2 * L1)
EX:
D : 1000
L1: 40%DR - 25%ARP = 15%
L2: Foresight 13.7%, feat Have faith 5% = 18.7%
L3: 40%
DL3 = 1000 - (100* 0.4) = 600
DL2 = 600 - (600 * 0.187 = 488
Dammage received = 488 - (488 * 0.15) = 415
If you use skill like AS for DR then u apply it after all this
Dammage received in AS = 415- (415 * 0.4) = 249
Santa Claus --GF
Gargamel --CW
A couple of things regarding the above.
(1) Do debuffs that reduce enemy damage resistance like Divine Glow or CW Ray of Enfeeblement apply to L2 (and not to L1) then? So our DR buffs could be mitigated in this case.
(2) If we assume that enemy has enough ArP to reduce all our L1 DR, then the formula reduces to:
D*(1-L3)*(1-L2) = D*0.6*(1-L2)
But this implies that if I have 10 stacks of T.Negation (=+30 L2 DR) + AS + HG + Divine Glow I actually will receive exactly 0 damage unless someone debuffs me. Is this correct? I am surprised if it is actually possible to reach this outcome.
Aelan Icebleed (CW)
1) All DR reduction is apply on L1 only. The onlu skill in the game that dont give a *** about anything is SOD.
2) ARP will affect only L1 and L1 cannot go under 0. ex: 80% arp vs 30% DR = 0%DR not -50% DR.
in case DR= 0 for L1 because of ARP the equation would be:
(D- (D * L3)) - ((D- (D * L3)) * L2)
3) Concerning AS, Negation, and such: negation and buff are in L2 but all skill DR (like AS, HG and the rest ) are all independant layer:
lets get the example from my previous post:
D : 1000
L1: 40%DR - 25%ARP = 15%
L2: Foresight 13.7%, feat Have faith 5% = 18.7%
L3: 40%
DL3 = 1000 - (100* 0.4) = 600
DL2 = 600 - (600 * 0.187 = 488
Dammage received = 488 - (488 * 0.15) = 415
If you use skill like AS for DR then u apply it after all this
Dammage received in AS = 415- (415 * 0.4) = 249
--------------------------------------------------
See here AS is acting like another Layer.
If you add hallowed ground, that to gonna be another layer
So basically you can never get to 0 dammage received with only using % dammage reduction
Santa Claus --GF
Gargamel --CW
(1) OK thanks, so DG PoD etc work like extra ArP then. Useful to know!
(3) Thanks for the example - I just noticed you included an example of that in your previous message too but I failed to notice it; my bad. So basically, all damage reduction layers are multiplicative.
On (2) yes, I already accounted for L1 = max{0, DR - RI} and set L1 = 0. (I just factorised you equation, so they are identical).
Thanks for the great info! Not sure where Rdeviant (the comment he posted in the link I provided) got this 0.2 multiplier from...weird.
Aelan Icebleed (CW)
baiscly all DR worth spending except defence that can be counter easy.