Easier version of TONG ?

13

Comments

  • chemjeff
    chemjeff Member Posts: 544 Arc User



    1. A guy that pops out and explains the mechanics could be party member or a friend of yours. Taking a minute or two to explain mechanics. Why do they need to put an NPC to do a players job?

    Because in this game, if you ask for help, you run the risk of getting kicked for slowing down the group.
  • bitt3rnightmar3
    bitt3rnightmar3 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 788 Arc User
    edited November 2017
    chemjeff said:



    1. A guy that pops out and explains the mechanics could be party member or a friend of yours. Taking a minute or two to explain mechanics. Why do they need to put an NPC to do a players job?

    Because in this game, if you ask for help, you run the risk of getting kicked for slowing down the group.
    Sounds like you have terrible friends if that's the case. :( So sorry that people treat you that way. That has never been my experience at all.

    Wouldn't it be better to explain to someone the mechanics before you start a fight and then not wipe vs not saying anything and then wiping 2-3 times while they figure it out??
    Relmyna - AC/DC Righteous + Haste| Nadine - CW MoF (working on it)|Buffy - GF SM Tact| Hrist - Justice Tankadin|Healadin (Wannabe Tank)| Lena -MI Sabo TR (Farmer) | Jeska - GWF SM Destroyer (Farmer) | Maggie - HR PF Trapper (Wannabe DPS)
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  • micky1p00
    micky1p00 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 3,540 Arc User
    edited November 2017
    chemjeff said:



    1. A guy that pops out and explains the mechanics could be party member or a friend of yours. Taking a minute or two to explain mechanics. Why do they need to put an NPC to do a players job?

    Because in this game, if you ask for help, you run the risk of getting kicked for slowing down the group.
    Sorry, but this is BS.

    Either you are pugging / solo, then it has nothing with "this game", it has to do with expectation and human interaction in general, it's humanity, and on average, humanity sucks.
    And more so due to partially somewhat older audience you have more chance to fall on someone that will explain you than in the majority of other games.

    If you are not pugging / soloing, than it's your choice of people who you run with. Please don't "in this game" all of us into the same bucket because of your choices.

    But more importantly, did you actually ask? Or you just assume ?

  • sundance777
    sundance777 Member Posts: 1,097 Arc User
    I too would love to see a normal non-master version of Tomb of the nine Gods, as well as master and normal versions of all the current dungeons. That adds options and variety and probably is not that hard to code.
    TR - Sun: 16000 IL
    OP - Sunshine: 16000 IL

    Casual Dailies
  • adinosii
    adinosii Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 4,294 Arc User
    edited November 2017
    I would not mind seeing different levels of difficulty of all dungeons - with rewards corresponding to the difficulty.

    However, this would in effect double or triple the number of queues, and might make wait times longer, so....not going to happen.
    Post edited by adinosii on
    Hoping for improvements...
  • ravenskya
    ravenskya Member Posts: 1,891 Arc User
    adinosii said:

    pantha7 said:

    I finally managed to find group for Tong from the guild ..but we didn't go too far...''kill 3 skeleton undead necromancers''
    we stuck in that mission..the group was 2 dc's, 1 gf , 1 hr, 1 gwf ...obviously is wrong ...they had to put a second tank an op in the group....i think that's the mistake we did,mobs were too many to be handled from the gf..the next time i will propose to try the tanky way...
    i have to admit that Yuan Ti destroyer and dancer are from the most difficult enemies to take them down cause they disable your powers,your unstoppable ...geezus srsly..why unstoppable is affected by the Yuan Ti's love spell,one hit from the destroyer and cuts you 100k hp..lol..

    If the whole group was inexperienced or undergeared, well... that's a more likely cause of the failure than the group composition.

    There is a whole lot of things to learn about ToNG....here are just a few:
    1. Know how to quickly determine which of the 3 exits from the starting area is the correct one.
    2. For the 3 coffins puzzle - know which coffins to pick, and when to go in as a group and when to go solo.
    3. Know about (and be prepared for) the ambush in the next room.
    4. Know how to coordinate to solve the potion puzzle
    5. Know how to do the Mimic puzzle
    6. Know how to cooperate to solve the 6-item puzzle quickly (best with voice communication), or whether to skip it and deal with the trap.
    7. Be prepared to deal with those paralyzing critters around Orcus' arena.
    8. Know which class is best suited to pick each curse for Orcus.
    9. Know how to bypass the annoying encounter just before you jump down into the dino pit.
    10. Know not to waste time by attacking the dwarves (unless you are specifically going for the achievement for killing all of them.
    11. For the final boss, know when to run, when to stand still and which targets to prioritize.
    12. etc...etc...as I said, there is a lot of things to learn.
    Great List - I'll add a bit to it
    • Your tank has to actually know where to aim things... 30+ minutes can be cut off a run just by knowing where to face orcus, and ras whatshisface.
    • Its not a "burn through it" dungeon - you WILL need to change up powers through the dungeon
    • Kill a group - stop - assess the next group - kill that group - stop - assess - repeat
    • You have to know where you are in relationship to everything else in that dungeon, it's easy to accidentally pull
    • Know which of the Yuanti aoe fears you and tell your group to stay the hell out of it - you get feared and run into the next group and you suddenly have a much worse day ahead of you.
    • If a lower IL group takes the dungeon 1 group at a time, they should have no problem getting to Orcus. Orcus is the DPS check- if you can't get passed him you reevaluate the DPS and cohesiveness of the team.
    Founding Member of "Wrong Side of the Stronghold"
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  • chemjeff
    chemjeff Member Posts: 544 Arc User
    micky1p00 said:

    chemjeff said:



    1. A guy that pops out and explains the mechanics could be party member or a friend of yours. Taking a minute or two to explain mechanics. Why do they need to put an NPC to do a players job?

    Because in this game, if you ask for help, you run the risk of getting kicked for slowing down the group.
    Sorry, but this is BS.

    Either you are pugging / solo, then it has nothing with "this game", it has to do with expectation and human interaction in general, it's humanity, and on average, humanity sucks.
    And more so due to partially somewhat older audience you have more chance to fall on someone that will explain you than in the majority of other games.

    If you are not pugging / soloing, than it's your choice of people who you run with. Please don't "in this game" all of us into the same bucket because of your choices.

    But more importantly, did you actually ask? Or you just assume ?

    I said "in this game". I did not accuse each and every single player in this game of this type of behavior. Relax.
  • micky1p00
    micky1p00 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 3,540 Arc User
    edited November 2017
    chemjeff said:

    micky1p00 said:

    chemjeff said:



    1. A guy that pops out and explains the mechanics could be party member or a friend of yours. Taking a minute or two to explain mechanics. Why do they need to put an NPC to do a players job?

    Because in this game, if you ask for help, you run the risk of getting kicked for slowing down the group.
    Sorry, but this is BS.

    Either you are pugging / solo, then it has nothing with "this game", it has to do with expectation and human interaction in general, it's humanity, and on average, humanity sucks.
    And more so due to partially somewhat older audience you have more chance to fall on someone that will explain you than in the majority of other games.

    If you are not pugging / soloing, than it's your choice of people who you run with. Please don't "in this game" all of us into the same bucket because of your choices.

    But more importantly, did you actually ask? Or you just assume ?

    I said "in this game". I did not accuse each and every single player in this game of this type of behavior. Relax.
    You defined a group attribute. You can be part of the group and then the attribute applies to you, or not part of the group. In this case being part of the game is the group..

    "Tall kids are smart" -> Tall -> smart, Not smart -> not tall.
    "In this place we remove shoes at the entrance" -> "Everyone are expected to remove shoes"
    "In this country green goblins eat soup" -> "all green goblins in this country eat soup"
    "In this game X"....

    Though even if taking semantics out of this, and considering only an average pug group, my reply stands. Humans are humans regardless of the game. Don't like average humans, interact only with human subgroup (friends, guild, etc..).
  • wintersmoke
    wintersmoke Member Posts: 1,632 Arc User
    Definition of Irony: Right below this forum post is a post titled "Harder version of ToNG?" Heh
  • araneax
    araneax Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 639 Arc User
    pantha7 said:

    REMOVE the souls and the pushing in the last boss...it's ridiculous...yu wipe , yu wipe yu wipe yu wipe ....for what reward...?abandoning the instance ?

    Better idea.
    Instead of removing the whole last boss fight / mechanic as you suggested.
    There would be nothing left if they actually removed souls and the pushing....

    Just removing the timer on the souls would be a tremendous help to parties in general.

    Or adding extra time between the moment souls spawn and the giant ghost slaps the platform.
    Giving the players enough time to do it.

    What do you think ?
    d7d81448-df6b-48cf-94a0-cf1ba87d861a_zpsish6zr2v.jpg

  • werdandi#8366
    werdandi#8366 Member Posts: 331 Arc User
    araneax said:

    pantha7 said:

    REMOVE the souls and the pushing in the last boss...it's ridiculous...yu wipe , yu wipe yu wipe yu wipe ....for what reward...?abandoning the instance ?

    Better idea.
    Instead of removing the whole last boss fight / mechanic as you suggested.
    There would be nothing left if they actually removed souls and the pushing....

    Just removing the timer on the souls would be a tremendous help to parties in general.

    Or adding extra time between the moment souls spawn and the giant ghost slaps the platform.
    Giving the players enough time to do it.

    What do you think ?
    Yes this timer is short, especially for classes who don't have big AOE quick burst.


  • ravenskya
    ravenskya Member Posts: 1,891 Arc User
    I don't have a problem with the timer or the souls - it adds to the challenge - the problem we have that causes this dungeon to go from a 28 minute run to a 2 hour fiasco - is lag based. The second there is lag you can't see the hands, we hear a laugh and everyone is looking back and forth, hopefully at least one of us can see the hands and yells "to me!" or "Over here" as they run to the safe side - otherwise you have a 50/50 shot of an unavoidable wipe. Some times we can't see hands, OR hear the laugh, we are there wailing on the boss and suddenly off we go.

    Being a pally I wouldn't mind a few more seconds on the soulmongers (or fuzzies as I call them) but to have no timer at all you might as well remove the fuzzies all together. The point is to kill them fast. The thing is that sometimes you have 3 seconds to kill them other times you have 15... a set amount of time towards the higher end would be preferable but I'm not complaining. I just hate when the fuzzies spawn and the hands are already on the board.

    Same issue with Orcus, multiple times he's flown up in the air and not come back. We stand around for a while then have to defeat me and start over.

    In a lesser laggy night we can truck through the dungeon no problem. Other times we get so frustrated we want to quit.
    Founding Member of "Wrong Side of the Stronghold"
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  • muminekm#3459
    muminekm#3459 Member Posts: 248 Arc User
    f
    ravenskya said:

    I don't have a problem with the timer or the souls - it adds to the challenge - the problem we have that causes this dungeon to go from a 28 minute run to a 2 hour fiasco - is lag based. The second there is lag you can't see the hands, we hear a laugh and everyone is looking back and forth, hopefully at least one of us can see the hands and yells "to me!" or "Over here" as they run to the safe side - otherwise you have a 50/50 shot of an unavoidable wipe. Some times we can't see hands, OR hear the laugh, we are there wailing on the boss and suddenly off we go.

    Being a pally I wouldn't mind a few more seconds on the soulmongers (or fuzzies as I call them) but to have no timer at all you might as well remove the fuzzies all together. The point is to kill them fast. The thing is that sometimes you have 3 seconds to kill them other times you have 15... a set amount of time towards the higher end would be preferable but I'm not complaining. I just hate when the fuzzies spawn and the hands are already on the board.

    Same issue with Orcus, multiple times he's flown up in the air and not come back. We stand around for a while then have to defeat me and start over.

    In a lesser laggy night we can truck through the dungeon no problem. Other times we get so frustrated we want to quit.

    The only times I died in Tong were because of lag.. (and souls wipes) as long as you dodge you should be fine. Sometimes it's unbearable and I have like 3-4 sec ping! Where I have smooth experience in every other dungeon. But you're right with different timers.. sometimes souls pop at the same time where ghost is trying to tilt the platform and you have to choice either to risk killing them or run and fill the souls bar. Also game sometimes spawn balls after killing Orcus and after temporary hp falls out..so someone has to suicide.

    But difficulty speaking it's not hard dungeon. I've seen many failed run and it mostly wasn't due to their gear (almost always >14k) but to their skills, build or experience. For example I don't see a point bringing tank gf when we have op tank..itf alone will not outlevel bringing some hdps instead. I saw people with the same gear performing so vastly (like 16k gwf who couldn't burn souls in meta team or 13k dps who melted orcus in few seconds) that I believe we shouldn't make this dungeon easier.."git gud" I would say. Or look here so you might rethink what's actually a meta for you:

    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1dikllHiTKylevs5znJPBUP7MjOMf4vSZafxReLLm4Yw/edit#gid=1162982443
  • ecrana#2080
    ecrana#2080 Member Posts: 1,654 Arc User
    I agree a timer on the souls or at least a timer that calculates when the hands and souls come out would be welcome. Most of my bad runs have been because souls start spawning right after the hands, leaving you with no time to kill the souls before the hands tip the platform. Ensuring that didn't happen alone would alleviate much frustrations in ToNG without making it a cakewalk for everyone.

    You still would have to burn the souls before the boss grabs them. You still would have to react to the hands. The combination of both can be overkill sometimes.

    Lag is definitely the biggest threat in ToNG.
  • adinosii
    adinosii Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 4,294 Arc User
    edited November 2017
    Lag is indeed an issue in ToNG. I have a nice, fast connection (gigabit fiber-optic) and a pretty decent gaming rig - lag is something I rarely see (except when everyone is lagging, like during the DDoS attacks a couple of years ago, during the original Stronghold Marauders or something like that).

    Well, with one exception - ToNG - no lag whatsoever before I go in ... then I start rubberbanding and have unreliable responses to my actions. After I leave ToNG, everything goes back to normal - so, yea, the Lag is pretty clearly ToNG-related.

    For me, though, it generally seems worst at first, and things are typically back to normal by the time we reach Orcus - almost as if it is too busy loading or setting up stuff in ToNG initially.

    I never have lag in the last boss fight....are others seeing different issues?
    Hoping for improvements...
  • schietindebux
    schietindebux Member Posts: 4,292 Arc User
    edited November 2017
    I would suggest to make a version of Tong for an exclusive setup following the dedicated primary roles of all classes.
    1 tank (GF/OP) 3dps (CW, Hunter, TR, GWF, SW) 1 heal (OP/DC), like the actual public queue, but as a privat version.
    Adjust the difficulty towards that groupsetup by downgrading difficulty and boss-HP, and give those groups a bonus reward, like a better drop chance for the rarely seen marks. Or leave content as is and triple the reward for those player...
    Simply because they decided to run that dungeon with a standart group setup and succeeded without cheesy, broken stacking mega buffs/debuffs/mitigation x4 and spend 3x more time doing so.
    Those groups earn to have respect and better rewards, and not those ones that simply abuse broken class combinations.

    What do ou think cryptic? No balance needed any more, you might stick with your strange sense for classes with megaton-buffs and without and give every class a meaning by that?
    You only have to balance your content twice, a broken version (for speedruns) and a "normal" version.
  • niadan
    niadan Member Posts: 1,635 Arc User
    Change the damn bloody curse to a flat percentage buff instead of being based on weapon damage so it does not favor the gwf so much.
  • sundance777
    sundance777 Member Posts: 1,097 Arc User
    adinosii said:

    I would not mind seeing different levels of difficulty of all dungeons - with rewards corresponding to the difficulty.

    However, this would in effect double or triple the number of queues, and might make wait times longer, so....not going to happen.

    I highly doubt it will make the infinite wait time for Tong or MSP any longer ;)
    TR - Sun: 16000 IL
    OP - Sunshine: 16000 IL

    Casual Dailies
  • hustin1
    hustin1 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 3,318 Arc User
    edited November 2017

    I think the game should have two version of all content. Normal and Master. Master content has an IL of 2K higher than normal and the enemies are 1-2 level higher with higher stats.

    Normal content would be a cakewalk for players who are 13K+ in IL. Whereas master would be where many of the harder content exist today.

    Also, normal would award just lower tiered gear, not the latest gear and lower tier marks, not the later marks. This way, it ensure that players who run the latest master content is awarded appropriately and players who run the normal can learn the content and still work on building up their character.

    This idea would allow the devs to update some older content with some added difficulty and maybe even add some new rare drop loot at in the treasure chest after the last boss.

    Just an idea on how to expand and add more content for more players.

    I remember they did this when the introduced Lair of Lostmauth into the game as a tier 3 dungeon back in mod 4-5. They had a regular LOL that you could run to understand the mechanics before you tried ELOL. That dungeon went away of course but it was interesting to provide an introduction though, I'm not sure that it was needed.

    Indeed. There was SoT and eSoT, LoL and eLoL. The normal version let players learn the mechanics of the fight without beating their heads into the wall.
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  • adinosii
    adinosii Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 4,294 Arc User

    I highly doubt it will make the infinite wait time for Tong or MSP any longer ;)

    Infinite wait? It's not so bad for mSP - if you queue for it solo, the queue will eventually pop, just because of people entering the epic RQs Of course, when some of them realize they are in mSP, they will quit or go idle - and even if they don't, the group may have trouble....so, yea, getting a successful mSP run might take a while.

    ToNG, on the other hand, well - I don't see why anyone would randomly solo-queue for that - you really want a premade group, and there you have the issue of some classes being in much higher demand than others, and right now that is a real issue for TRs in particular (and to a lesser degree for SWs), but "infinite wait time"? Nah....not quite that bad.
    Hoping for improvements...
  • adinosii
    adinosii Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 4,294 Arc User
    etelgrin said:

    I believe all we need is higher-ultimate enchanting stone-droprate version of tong. I've run it since it was legitly possible and never dropped one including one double enchants event which net people 2x drops too. Is my account cursed? #conspiracytheory

    The drop rate is low - my data suggests 1% from each chest. I have gotten 2 UES from over 100 runs, and I usually ask if others got any.

    Now, if I assume people will run Tong often enough to reach the weekly max for Seals of the Brave (which does actually seem higher than 400 - it is like the seals from the final chests are not counted), then it will take the average player 7 years of grinding to get the stones needed to upgrade every R13 to R14.

    Fun, eh ?
    Hoping for improvements...
  • hawkeyel
    hawkeyel Member Posts: 389 Arc User
    Have not seen any point this out but I will often go and look at some YouTube videos before I go into any new dungeon .While I like the idea of them having more that just the one version regular and elite I find just making use of YouTube an easier option .Perhaps some might add any good links so others can learn more as to just what is expected of them .
  • gromovnipljesak#8234
    gromovnipljesak#8234 Member Posts: 1,050 Arc User
    edited December 2017
    I dunno what you're talking about. Yesterday I did a NO DC RUN with a few ~13k players.

    I dont wanna come off as a HAMSTER, but it's your fault you cant do it. I take my lower geared guildmates any time of the day 'cause I know they're skilled. Besides, it took me hours and hours to get into tong, how can you be so entitled as to claim that ToNG is too hard when you haven't even tried, mate?
    Post edited by gromovnipljesak#8234 on
  • froger#9967
    froger#9967 Member Posts: 573 Arc User
    Group composition, experience (or willingness to learn), as well as correctly built / played characters matter for this content. It is a shame to see that people only want 15k+ ilvl to join, but I understand why: they assume you know what you are doing and have capable gear. The problem with only advertising ilvl is you will get people who have the funds to purchase it without learning and understanding their character / role. In one run I had another GWF beat in DPS by time we got to Orcus. He had over 1k ilvl on me (I’m 14.2k), but his companions, gear, enchants, etc were setup in a way that supported his solo play style, which didn’t lead to him filling the role needed in this dungeon. It was his first run and he learned a lot about the dungeon, so I’m sure he will get the correct gear and be fine. In my most recent run, I was the only DPS. We had two clerics, an OP, and a GF, we finished in just under an hour. Everyone knew what they were doing and worked their class well, despite having a submeta DPS (me). I’ve tried to PUG this, but people seem too unwilling to listen and learn mechanics.
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  • mebengalsfan#9264
    mebengalsfan#9264 Member Posts: 3,169 Arc User

    Group composition, experience (or willingness to learn), as well as correctly built / played characters matter for this content. It is a shame to see that people only want 15k+ ilvl to join, but I understand why: they assume you know what you are doing and have capable gear. The problem with only advertising ilvl is you will get people who have the funds to purchase it without learning and understanding their character / role. In one run I had another GWF beat in DPS by time we got to Orcus. He had over 1k ilvl on me (I’m 14.2k), but his companions, gear, enchants, etc were setup in a way that supported his solo play style, which didn’t lead to him filling the role needed in this dungeon. It was his first run and he learned a lot about the dungeon, so I’m sure he will get the correct gear and be fine. In my most recent run, I was the only DPS. We had two clerics, an OP, and a GF, we finished in just under an hour. Everyone knew what they were doing and worked their class well, despite having a submeta DPS (me). I’ve tried to PUG this, but people seem too unwilling to listen and learn mechanics.

    The last run you had in TONG is the new Meta and is an issue as it is four support class and one DPS class running the content. That is an ongoing isue and has been in place since this game launched on PS4. 2 DCs have been a thing now for a quite a while. Even for the DO update to DC two AC DCs were fairly common and quite frankly annoying that groups wanted 2 DCs for CN or a AC DC and a OP Healer for CN back when Orcus hit hard and prior to STK being launched.

    What I have seen with this game is imbalanced groups are the norm with typically 2 healers and 2 tanks and 1 DPS or 1 tank 2 healers and 2 DPS. The only way to truly get what is considered a balance group of 1 tank, 1 healer and 3 DPS is to blind q into content without using private q.

    Devs are working on fixing the 2 DC issue but it should not just be limited to 2 DC. The net they plan to throw to resolve the two DC issue needs to include fixing stacking of multiple support and find a way to encourage players to run content with 1-1-3 groups. How they do it is up to them but it needs to be wider than just resolving the two DC stacking that we see today.

    As for ToNG and having an easier version, yes it would be nice but in due time it will become easier as newer content is released, either by an adjustment to the content difficulty or when more players achieve a higher IL and start to understand the mechanics or when we become strong enough that one strong DPS can simply ignore mechanics and kill all in their path.