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Official: M13 Scourge Warlock Changes

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  • jaime4312#3760 jaime4312 Member Posts: 844 Arc User
    edited November 2017
    > @bellkazi said:
    > given how other classes outperform SW as leader
    >
    > leader?
    > DC - Hallowed Ground, Break the Spirit always with you.
    > GF - Into the Fray always with you.
    > This is the leader.
    > SW a striker, not a leader.

    SW is a leader as well, being bad at that is the problem. There's a tree specifically for support (temptation, leader role) at the cost of personal dps and there's a paragon that gives up some single target dps to further buff teammates with its exclusive Pillar of Power encounter.
  • pyrosorcererpyrosorcerer Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 137 Arc User
    bellkazi said:


    SW is a leader as well, being bad at that is the problem. There's a tree specifically for support (temptation, leader role) at the cost of personal dps and there's a paragon that gives up some single target dps to further buff teammates with its exclusive Pillar of Power encounter.

    GWF can use Daring Shout+Indomitable Battle Strike+Battle Fury.GWF leader?
    I believe you have the role system a bit mixed. The four different current role types are striker, controller, leader, defender.
    The leader role is the one that has a focus towards healing, not particularly buffs debuffs only. DC is a leader mosty due to Virtuous and Faithful, but as a leader focusing on healing also has the secondary role of buffing, debuffing. Healing isn't much of a necessity anymore, so I understand you think "leader" is "buff/debuff". Also GF is no leader at all even with "Into The Fray" as someone mentioned earlier. GF is a defender/controller. Any type class can buff debuff, but a leader type can heal.
  • darkan#3756 darkan Member Posts: 145 Arc User
    bellkazi said:


    SW is a leader as well, being bad at that is the problem. There's a tree specifically for support (temptation, leader role) at the cost of personal dps and there's a paragon that gives up some single target dps to further buff teammates with its exclusive Pillar of Power encounter.

    GWF can use Daring Shout+Indomitable Battle Strike+Battle Fury.GWF leader?
    Well may be its true in mod before i start played sw was role leader but i know with role striker. GF have a tree be come striker but can choice others paths for be tank (and do exelent) so SW should can do same not by perform temptation lost dps for rest paths if only function like support and others tree not are competitive dps with HR or GWF so its more leader. but when tyranical and puppet are buged was more dps so if only sw do damage for buged devs think sw was oriented class for support ? i think the duality have this class make some hard be good dps but not should be
  • darkan#3756 darkan Member Posts: 145 Arc User
    the sadly true is the sw overcome how leader with others class support like dc, gf, op etc and how striker with others class dps like hr, gwf, cw etc need fix much things loool
  • tyrtallowtyrtallow Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 747 Arc User
    edited November 2017
    Actually a leader's role is basically that of a multiplier. Several leader classes only have functional healing, their main purpose is to improve party effectiveness either by buffing allies or debuffing enemies.
    Healing is an important part of being a leader only in the sense that dead allies deal zero DPS.

    The SW has always had a leader-ish aspect primarily because it had several enemy damage reduction debuffs, ally buffs and even a few heals. All of these powers/feats are also available to all SWs as encounters/tier 1-3 feats, unlike say the CW which has to pick a specific path (eg. MoF, Renegade capstone) in order to gain access to stronger buffs/debuffs.
    Temptation just takes things a step further by actually having a focus in healing.

    There is a bit of overlap between class roles, even if you don't take into consideration powers like Into the Fray or Ray of Enfeeblement. A controller can (in theory, not in-game) be just as effective as a leader in negating incoming damage from enemy mobs, for example. Obviously if a defender is able to quickly defeat enemy mobs then they won't be attacking the squishies anytime soon.

    Ultimately the roles are more like guidelines for what you should be prioritizing during combat. Defenders SHOULD be keeping mobs off squishies for example (doesn't matter how you do it, as long as you do), a controller should be busy neutralizing dangerous enemy mobs (questionable value in recent mods), leaders should be buffing, strikers should striking, etc.
    You there. New to the game? Feeling overwhelmed? Maybe you think getting to end-game is impossible for a casual player like yourself, or maybe you just need to be around a community that helps each other stay sane and competitive with the latest news, current trends, random chitchat and most of all LEGIT (that is, we try to keep things fair) gameplay. If you don't mind being around quirky people and the rare occasional drama (one of our prominent TR members is apparently a mafia godfather) join nw_legit_community at http://www.nwlegitcommunity.shivtr.com/forum_threads/2330542.
  • tyrtallowtyrtallow Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 747 Arc User
    edited November 2017
    ^Missing the point.

    To put it bluntly, builds often subvert roles (if Temptlocks are allowed to become a pure leader, it would be first instance of a paragon feat path being allowed to completely break away from its established a role).
    That's why you can have something like Righteous be a decent striker, because it needs to attack in order to apply its debuffs - but ultimately doing so doesn't make it any less of a leader. You just need the right gear and the right combination of powers/feats to pull it off.
    You there. New to the game? Feeling overwhelmed? Maybe you think getting to end-game is impossible for a casual player like yourself, or maybe you just need to be around a community that helps each other stay sane and competitive with the latest news, current trends, random chitchat and most of all LEGIT (that is, we try to keep things fair) gameplay. If you don't mind being around quirky people and the rare occasional drama (one of our prominent TR members is apparently a mafia godfather) join nw_legit_community at http://www.nwlegitcommunity.shivtr.com/forum_threads/2330542.
  • schietindebuxschietindebux Member Posts: 4,292 Arc User
    edited November 2017
    When i started this game, CW was a great controller, really a fun class watching those dailies and powers, never played a CW myself, only invoking all day. Now its more like a striker/leader.
    When I started this game GWF was a striker...he still is
    GF was a tank with huge buffs, some of them through the roof , talking about ITF+DR synergy exploding after mod 6, atm GF is more a striker/leader than a defender/Controller regarding the chat : "GF lfg Tong buffer/dps", there arer not many GF´s tanking atm or controlling in Tong.
    Warlock was allways played as a striker, temptation in mod 4/5 was not much lower in dps than fury , till they reworked those trees, changed capstones, implemented ACC ... in the end fury dealt >50% more, before maybe 1/3.
    That leader role never was from interest that much, zero consistent debuff/buffs and zero mitigation, and that´s all about a leader these days.
    "Their powers support the party's success either by healing damage taken, preventing damage from being taken or increasing the damage enemies take."
    Following this, warlock is a useless leader regarding his healing aspect, and that´s exactly our situation.
    Roles vary and change obviously, but I´d like to get that leader role working for temptation.
    Buffs/debuffs/mitigation towards all classes or... rebalance all those classes with megabuffs to give this game any hope, by that rebalance content in a hole, since you can´t run Tong with a low buff group in an acceptable time.
    Endcontent is addapted towards the actual powercreep/buff situation. 4xbuffer 1xdps, i would say the situation is a bit fücked up that way
  • schietindebuxschietindebux Member Posts: 4,292 Arc User
    edited November 2017
    Or give Warlocks Bargain a "piercing heal" ability, premitigated healing :D
    like that you can eagalize SoD... if you find that TR
    At least PVP community would have something to discuss that way. Warlock is said to be linked with lifesteal but got punished all that , Tempt. capstone, powers like WB, wich simlpy kill you to some degree.
  • naoqueroforumnaoqueroforum Member Posts: 225 Arc User


    Can´t find myself what I wrote. What I ment is, that Soul Scorch never worked with LC (the dot never procced from LC) allways on WC, same as Vampric embrance, HG, HS, WS all those ones were tied to WC as far as I remember.
    DT, FB and i guess curse Bite did work with LC, not sure if FB also consumed WC, guess so.

    But we lost those consume effects on our aoe abilities to get curse synergy. By that feats like Parting Blasphemy lost it´s existatial basic.
    If curse consume should be from interest you need to turn back the time and give those aoe curse consume again. By that you drop significantly in Creeping Death procs for sure. Creeeping Death before rework about 15% of overal dps, now the double.
    Curse consume kills LC by that CD did not proc that good as now.
    If anyone would remember that with Curse synergy the CD procs were much more constant and dps increased significant.

    If we now go back to curse consume with aoe spells, CD will drop again.
    You lose a 60% dps proc (mod13 75%) for every dealt damage towards a target that lost it´s LC. You have to reapply LC with a crit (ACC) to benefit once again from that 60% DOT.
    To equalize that dps loss you need to buff Parting Blasphemy, to proc for 60% (75%) of dealt damage by removing that curse, beside the fact that you need to invest 5/5 into that feat.

    I agree about Curse consume for WC should be rewarded, like you said. Consuming that WC with HG deals aoe/soul investiture+debuff, sounds pretty good, since that aoe hits cursed targets (LC) and procs CD by that.

    Neverwinter Balance 2017
    Tong 15.11.2017 23:14

    35 DC
    18 OP
    20 GWF
    12 GF
    10 CW
    3TR
    3 Hunter
    1 warlock

    The major increase in CD damage when curse consume was removed from many powers was not the fact that you were curse consuming less, but the fact that almost every source of damage contributes to CD, not just necrotic powers as before (and also because murderous flames is not 95% of your damage anymore lol). Even if you curse consume now, CD can still proc on targets that have lesser curse, and as most people use ACC most of the time, there is very little chance that one of your hits will not be eligible for CD.

    So, an AoE curse consume from curse bite would hardly be an issue for CD, specially considering the situations in which you will use it are those where creeping death hardly gets to the 15% range. Reapplying the 3 curses for extra damage would be a much worse issue. But nothing is prohibiting them from adding an extra effect on curse bite to make the next warlock curse cast also apply WC to the 2 other nearest targets, if those changes were made.
  • naoqueroforumnaoqueroforum Member Posts: 225 Arc User
    edited November 2017

    Or give Warlocks Bargain a "piercing heal" ability, premitigated healing :D
    like that you can eagalize SoD... if you find that TR
    At least PVP community would have something to discuss that way. Warlock is said to be linked with lifesteal but got punished all that , Tempt. capstone, powers like WB, wich simlpy kill you to some degree.

    WB could really use a piercing healing component. Also the reflected damage could very well be piercing as well.
  • tyrtallowtyrtallow Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 747 Arc User
    edited November 2017
    Fury was always less of a leader than other SW paths, which makes sense because it really is mostly about killing stuff and gravitated towards using personal damage output-boosting feats/powers, but a cursory look at Damnation and Temptation should tell you that the intent for a striker with leader (as a secondary role) for the SW was always there.

    Damnation has feats like Siphoning Curse and Power of the Nine Hells, and because it relies on the Soul Puppet for a fraction of its DPS output it has a predisposition towards slotting more supportive encounter powers like Dreadtheft which increases everyone's DPS (including the Soul Puppet's and the damnlock's). Temptation has always had a sort of identity crisis because it was not a very good leader and not a very good striker either, unless you count instances like mid-late mod5 where everyone was so overpowered in comparison to content that it didn't matter.

    The weird thing is that the character creation description for the SW doesn't tell any of you this, and is pretty much a blatant lie anyway.
    You there. New to the game? Feeling overwhelmed? Maybe you think getting to end-game is impossible for a casual player like yourself, or maybe you just need to be around a community that helps each other stay sane and competitive with the latest news, current trends, random chitchat and most of all LEGIT (that is, we try to keep things fair) gameplay. If you don't mind being around quirky people and the rare occasional drama (one of our prominent TR members is apparently a mafia godfather) join nw_legit_community at http://www.nwlegitcommunity.shivtr.com/forum_threads/2330542.
  • darkan#3756 darkan Member Posts: 145 Arc User
    edited November 2017
    tyrtallow said:

    Fury was always less of a leader than other SW paths, which makes sense because it really is mostly about killing stuff and gravitated towards using personal damage output-boosting feats/powers, but a cursory look at Damnation and Temptation should tell you that the intent for a striker with leader (as a secondary role) for the SW was always there.

    Damnation has feats like Siphoning Curse and Power of the Nine Hells, and because it relies on the Soul Puppet for a fraction of its DPS output it has a predisposition towards slotting more supportive encounter powers like Dreadtheft which increases everyone's DPS (including the Soul Puppet's and the damnlock's). Temptation has always had a sort of identity crisis because it was not a very good leader and not a very good striker either, unless you count instances like mid-late mod5 where everyone was so overpowered in comparison to content that it didn't matter.

    The weird thing is that the character creation description for the SW doesn't tell any of you this, and is pretty much a blatant lie anyway.

    dreadtheft is a power can use for any paths of sw if wish debuff of course use that is for debuff not have much dps actually damnation not have feats interact how powers that have curse synergy so damnlocks lost much part of dps become be a temptation but minus. The really change its make dps trees be really dps not because a tree of sw not do dps automatycal become be support (overal if not have any feat for that and powers can use for that any path use as well ) sw need more selfbuffs use determined powers for fury that interact determined feats for selfbuff, need more interaction damnation feats with powers that increase damage for use powers debuff and feats debuff interact powers damage

  • finalfantasyac7finalfantasyac7 Member Posts: 582 Arc User
    Just stop posting. No point in posting since the devs going to change things the way they like or want anyway. Also jump on different class or quit the game like i did. They destroyed SW and now we have to wait 10 years until SW is fixed/buffed. When it comes to bugs/glitches (such as sahha ball) that will cost cryptic money, they will fixed it within 1hour but since sw isn't that important... it will take them 10+ years.

    R.i.p SW.
    Warlock- Lv80. || Rogue - Lv80. || Wizard - Lv80. || Paladin - Lv80. || Cleric - Lv80. || Ranger - Lv70. || Barbarian - Lv70. || Fighter - Lv70.

    ¨˜ˆ”°¹~•-.„¸ρℓαуιиg иєνєяωιитєя ѕιи¢є 2015¸„.-•~¹°”ˆ˜¨

  • pyrosorcererpyrosorcerer Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 137 Arc User

    Just stop posting. No point in posting since the devs going to change things the way they like or want anyway. Also jump on different class or quit the game like i did. They destroyed SW and now we have to wait 10 years until SW is fixed/buffed. When it comes to bugs/glitches (such as sahha ball) that will cost cryptic money, they will fixed it within 1hour but since sw isn't that important... it will take them 10+ years.

    R.i.p SW.

    Ok, so if you quit the game then you would do well quit coming here posting your ongoing pessimism with zero constructive feedback at all. For your information nobody had posted in about 2 full days when you posted the quoted post above. Some people see the opportunity to try and improve things. Yes, it might be a lot of work for us with not as much result as we had hoped, but not everything will be served on a silver plate. At least devs want to try and improve things.

    You are not doing yourself nor any other any good by coming back here posting your negativity.
  • jaime4312#3760 jaime4312 Member Posts: 844 Arc User

    Just stop posting. No point in posting since the devs going to change things the way they like or want anyway. Also jump on different class or quit the game like i did. They destroyed SW and now we have to wait 10 years until SW is fixed/buffed. When it comes to bugs/glitches (such as sahha ball) that will cost cryptic money, they will fixed it within 1hour but since sw isn't that important... it will take them 10+ years.

    R.i.p SW.

    If it wasn't for us posting we would be missing in mod 13:

    - the 20% damage boost for teammates against targets cursed by templock (suggested by Natsu)
    - more damage bonus from Creeping Death suggested by @werdandi#8366 and me.
    - PoP no longer needing Po9H in order to buff teammates damage by 18%, worth having a loadout for static/less hektic fights, I pointed out to the dev there was a detail he wasn't aware of that if unaddressed would have made PoP buff teammates by %6 less.

    + other things I don't remember now and, while SW needs way more tweaks, it was worth posting a lot for, doing anything other than suggesting changes/tweaks is pointless.
  • naoqueroforumnaoqueroforum Member Posts: 225 Arc User
    @balanced#2849
    Is the extra 15% creeping death coming from an extra tick or are the current ones being increased, keeping the same duration?
  • jaime4312#3760 jaime4312 Member Posts: 844 Arc User
    edited November 2017

    @balanced#2849
    Is the extra 15% creeping death coming from an extra tick or are the current ones being increased, keeping the same duration?

    I believe the bonus damage from Creeping Death is gonna work the same way, just based of 75% rather than 60%. An extra tick would be terrible, CD already takes quite a bit of time to deal full damage like for making it take even longer.
    Post edited by jaime4312#3760 on
  • schietindebuxschietindebux Member Posts: 4,292 Arc User
    @balanced#2849
    I´d like to get a hint, if the last word is spoken concerning warlock´s changes and mod 13 ?
    It would be fair to get that affirmation. That´s no pessismism, just a friendly request.
  • naoqueroforumnaoqueroforum Member Posts: 225 Arc User

    @balanced#2849
    Is the extra 15% creeping death coming from an extra tick or are the current ones being increased, keeping the same duration?

    I believe the bonus damage from Creeping Death is gonna work the same way, just based of 75% rather than 60%. An extra tick would be terrible, CD already takes quite a bit of time to deal full damage like for making it take even longer.
    Hope so. I'd rather it be 3 ticks 25% actually. Hope over experience.
  • tyrtallowtyrtallow Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 747 Arc User
    edited November 2017
    None of the changes seem to have made it to preview so far so who knows, they might be listening. An open line of communication would be nice though. We really need to know where they stand on the direction the class is going, at least.
    Not even sure about those Rocktober fixes, a lot of stuff is still broken and even Creeping Death still has weird interactions with certain powers/feats.
    You there. New to the game? Feeling overwhelmed? Maybe you think getting to end-game is impossible for a casual player like yourself, or maybe you just need to be around a community that helps each other stay sane and competitive with the latest news, current trends, random chitchat and most of all LEGIT (that is, we try to keep things fair) gameplay. If you don't mind being around quirky people and the rare occasional drama (one of our prominent TR members is apparently a mafia godfather) join nw_legit_community at http://www.nwlegitcommunity.shivtr.com/forum_threads/2330542.
  • jaime4312#3760 jaime4312 Member Posts: 844 Arc User
    edited November 2017
    @balanced

    Please consider tweaking PoP so allies can step out of it wihout losing the buff, make this a feature that doesn't require Power of the Nine Hells and consider giving that damnation feat a new effect lile buffing puppet damage/summoming am extra puppet (so Damnlocks could have 2 perma soulpuppets)

    Also, please compare your tweaked version of Killing Curse vs Thorned Roots, Fire of the Gods and Jagged Blades... it is far too underpowered, it will still underperform way too much. SW weapon damage isn't high to begin with so why other classes get those powerful % weapon damage feats while we get such an awfully underpowered one? It should be made based on at least 100% weapon damage and scaling, just, again, compare your tweaked version vs the aforementioned feats from other classes (and consider the fact Jagged Blades, thanks to bugtober fixes, will proc on all targets if procced by aoe powers). If you make it at least 100% weapon damage and let PoP buff people by 5 secs when they step out of it without being forced to take Power of the Nine Hells, then SW will take a step in the right direction towards balance vs other damage dealers.

    While it is cool that PoP will no longer need to be feated to Po9H to buff allies by 18%, it will still be mandatory feat for consistency's sake, I know if I'd be on my GF making a group for endgame content and would have to 2 choose between 2 warlocks (and assuming they have the right gear rotations etc) I'd leave the Po9H-less SW out every single time for consitency and perfomance's sake, instatly losing PoP buff when stepping out of pillar is, at least for me, unacepptable.
    Post edited by jaime4312#3760 on
  • naoqueroforumnaoqueroforum Member Posts: 225 Arc User
    edited November 2017

    Hey guys,

    • Murderous Flames: Letting this affect more (fire) powers is a cool idea
    • In general, I (personally) don't think feat points that only affect 1 or 2 powers (yes, darkness included) are healthy for gameplay. There are some spots where it works, such as Paragon feats, but things like Murderous Flames being locked into Killing Flames basically means you have to use that power for your current build.
    • Soul Desecration: I think this capstone doesn't offer enough of a damage boost for being a capstone, the idea of two soul puppets is neat - but I would rather one soul puppet be really meaningful.
    • Power of the Nine Hells: I agree that this feat is still particularly strong, which means it was ridiculously powerful before-hand. For now, it's in a better place than it was before, but I think you at least have a bit more of an option - even if most would prefer to support their group by taking it.
    • Pillar of Power: The radius on this power is currently 13', which I think is pretty big, but I understand the frustration of having to constantly move (whether to a splat, or re-positioning yourself) and having to replace it.
    • Dark Revelry: I'll be looking into the power share for this feat. I know that Devoted Clerics and Oathbound Paladins both share their own power, so this works a bit differently. That said, it would be a rather large buff, so no guarantees on a change here (for the time being).
    Po9H is currently taken to buff allies for sure. But with the change, even if you don't need it to buff allies, every HB SW will take Po9H to make sure they get 100% uptime on the buff for themselves first, and on others as a consequence. If the pillar moved with the SW I could see a situation in which only the thoughtful SW would take it. As the changes stand, it will probably be 99.87% of the SW taking it. I would suggest this feat increased PoP damage and/or added an extra buff to the puppet hitting targets inside the pillar, or added an investiture stack for every 4/3.5/3/2.5/2 seconds the puppet is inside a pillar, thus becoming a more damnation oriented feat. Or at the very least give the PoP buff a base duration of 2 seconds when out of the pillar.

    On the puppet I'd rather have one more powerful as you say than two of them. You could look into increasing the cap on investiture stacks for the capstone probably. Also, could you make it easier to visualize them? A visual change to the puppet as the stacks increase would be cool. Make the puppet as big as Valindra at max stacks. Would probably be fun to see that.

    Thanks for taking a look at all the suggestions.

    P.S.: Nice change on the eldritch momentum.
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