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Random Queues and the restaurant analogy

adinosiiadinosii Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 4,294 Arc User
edited November 2017 in Player Feedback (PC)
I saw a post comparing Neverwinter to a restaurant, and thought it was such a great analogy that it deserved its own thread.

So here goes:
There is a restaurant.

It is a great little place. Sure, it may not have a Michelin star rating, but it has some really great dishes (and some that are not so great, so you only tried them once). Many other customers agree and a few of the dishes are pretty much universal favorites, although most customers try some of the other dishes for a change every now and then.

Over the years you have gotten to know many of the other regular customers. Some of them are your friends and you regularly go to the restaurant together and have some of the dishes you like.

There are a few things some people are unhappy about - a few years ago there were some good dishes that were removed from the menu, and while some of them were brought back in a simplified or reworked form, many people still miss some of their old favorites.

There are also complaints about the service - the kitchen only prepares a dish when enough people have ordered it and sometimes you have to wait quite a bit to get your order.

Still, the food is good, and people keep coming to the place.

However, the restaurant just made a big policy change:

"We have observed that our customers keep ordering the same dishes over and over, but we would like you to have a more varied experience. From now on, you will only choose the the price category of the dish, and we will bring you something from our old menu (regardless of whether you like it or not).

We have also decided we want each table to reflect our community better, so each table will seat three dark-haired customers, one red-haired and one blonde. You will be automatically seated at the first available table that has an opening for your hair color. If your hair color does not match any of those categories we will decide what your hair color should be and seat you accordingly.

This allows us to increase the portion size and speed up the service, so the average customer should be able to eat more in a shorter time.

We are sure you will love those changes.

And yes, if you still want to eat with your friends, but you have the wrong hair color combination, you can sit at the table in the corner and have some cold leftovers."

Would you continue to eat at the restaurant after those changes?
Hoping for improvements...

Comments

  • greywyndgreywynd Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 6,695 Arc User
    Hold the pickles
    Hold the lettuce
    Special orders
    Always upset us
    All we ask is that you let us serve it our way
    Serve it our way
    Serve it our way
    Serve it our way
    At Burger Biggie
    I'm not looking for forgiveness, and I'm way past asking permission. Earth just lost her best defender, so we're here to fight. And if you want to stand in our way, we'll fight you too.
  • ecrana#2080 ecrana Member Posts: 1,654 Arc User
    You left off the bonus meals for blonde haired customers since there's a lack of blondes and they really spice up a table.
  • meiramimeirami Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 423 Arc User
    edited November 2017
    The food's free, though.

    Nevermind, I clearly failed to make the point you get some AD for your troubles in Random Queue and that there are other ways to make AD, although many of those ways aren't free from the RNG either.
    Post edited by meirami on
  • ontheleftcoast#2086 ontheleftcoast Member Posts: 120 Arc User
    meirami said:

    The food's free, though.

    But it's not, we either put lots of time or real world money into this diner. And if nobody put real world money into it then it would've closed long, long ago.
  • meiramimeirami Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 423 Arc User

    But it's not, we either put lots of time or real world money into this diner. And if nobody put real world money into it then it would've closed long, long ago.

    Well, if time is the currency we are using (because we do get AD from the RQ), then the Random Queue could be considered to be a buffet or the dish-of-the-day. If you don't what is being offered in the lunch buffet that day, ordering from the menu can cost more to get the exact dish you want.

    I haven't read all of @adinosii 's posts on this issue, so I'm honestly asking; what are you suggesting Cryptic should do in this situation? Go back to the old or change something?

    I'm sorry that the change is giving grief to many players, but the other side of the coin is that, if this were a restaurant and if none of your friends were available at the time, you'd still need to order spider soup in the old system because otherwise you'd be waiting for a long, long time for the chefs to prepare anything else. In other words, it was difficult to find a group for anything but eToS and eSoT under the old system, unless you made your own group... and if you aren't very geared and can't find a tank or a healer, you'd have difficult time forming a successful group.
  • usernamefatigueusernamefatigue Member Posts: 60 Arc User
    edited November 2017
    adinosii said:



    We are sure you will love those changes.

    And if you don't, it's not because our design is flawed. It's because you have a psychological block and you'll either get over it or leave. New people will replace you and they won't have your psychological block so it's all cool.
  • mithrosnomoremithrosnomore Member Posts: 693 Arc User
    This analogy is pretty bad, or at the very least incomplete.

    Not only were some people having to wait a while to get their order, they were often being sent him hungry at closing time.

    Besides, if you want to run a particular dungeon or skirmish... If you want to "order a particular dish"... Nothing is stopping you; Queue up.

    If anything, the random queue will help you get to run that dungeon that you specifically want to run that much faster.

    No one is stopping you from getting the AD. They are just telling you "if you want the AD then you have to do this thing that can help us 'fill the less popular orders' ".
  • ontheleftcoast#2086 ontheleftcoast Member Posts: 120 Arc User

    This analogy is pretty bad, or at the very least incomplete.

    Not only were some people having to wait a while to get their order, they were often being sent him hungry at closing time.

    Besides, if you want to run a particular dungeon or skirmish... If you want to "order a particular dish"... Nothing is stopping you; Queue up.

    If anything, the random queue will help you get to run that dungeon that you specifically want to run that much faster.

    No one is stopping you from getting the AD. They are just telling you "if you want the AD then you have to do this thing that can help us 'fill the less popular orders' ".

    It's worse than you make it out to be. My main, nearly 14K who has run mSP/FBI numerous times, is now completely blocked from the random epic dungeon queue because he's a build that doesn't exist according to the way the queues are designed. I have no choice but to run tons of salvage runs, which are now harder to get because of the queues, so my AD production has diminished greatly.
  • litaaerslitaaers Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 871 Arc User
    edited November 2017
    adinosii said:

    I saw a post comparing Neverwinter to a restaurant, and thought it was such a great analogy that it deserved its own thread.

    So here goes:

    There is a restaurant.

    It is a great little place. Sure, it may not have a Michelin star rating, but it has some really great dishes (and some that are not so great, so you only tried them once). Many other customers agree and a few of the dishes are pretty much universal favorites, although most customers try some of the other dishes for a change every now and then.

    Over the years you have gotten to know many of the other regular customers. Some of them are your friends and you regularly go to the restaurant together and have some of the dishes you like.

    There are a few things some people are unhappy about - a few years ago there were some good dishes that were removed from the menu, and while some of them were brought back in a simplified or reworked form, many people still miss some of their old favorites.

    There are also complaints about the service - the kitchen only prepares a dish when enough people have ordered it and sometimes you have to wait quite a bit to get your order.

    Still, the food is good, and people keep coming to the place.

    However, the restaurant just made a big policy change:

    "We have observed that our customers keep ordering the same dishes over and over, but we would like you to have a more varied experience. From now on, you will only choose the the price category of the dish, and we will bring you something from our old menu (regardless of whether you like it or not).

    We have also decided we want each table to reflect our community better, so each table will seat three dark-haired customers, one red-haired and one blonde. You will be automatically seated at the first available table that has an opening for your hair color. If your hair color does not match any of those categories we will decide what your hair color should be and seat you accordingly.

    This allows us to increase the portion size and speed up the service, so the average customer should be able to eat more in a shorter time.

    We are sure you will love those changes.

    And yes, if you still want to eat with your friends, but you have the wrong hair color combination, you can sit at the table in the corner and have some cold leftovers."

    Would you continue to eat at the restaurant after those changes?
    This analogy is flawed in SO many ways.

    You leave out the part where anyone can come in the restaurant, whether you pay or not. And the part where THEY give YOU something of (some) value after you eat, regardless of your payment situation, IF you eat from the surprise menu.

    Also, you use hair color, when the 'seating arrangement' is done by role (which could be worked on), but the example you give is totally disingenuous.

    AND you can bring your friends to the table, choose your meal, at your leisure. You just don't get the free gift in the Jolly Meal.

    IMO, this analogy does nothing to futher your cause, and may actually hurt it by adding hyberbole to the argument.

    EDIT: This, of course, is aimed at the OP of the analogy.
  • adinosiiadinosii Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 4,294 Arc User
    edited November 2017
    meirami said:


    I haven't read all of @adinosii 's posts on this issue, so I'm honestly asking; what are you suggesting Cryptic should do in this situation? Go back to the old or change something?

    Well, here is what I actually suggested in another thread.

    The developers are listening to the complaints, but not understanding the real issues.

    The change just described is an improvement, yes - but the whole RQ system is still broken . You are still penalizing some groups of players, discouraging others and damaging the play experience of yet others.

    The reason is still the same as before and you are still taking the same, flawed approach of attempting to fix the symptoms instead of fixing the underlying causes. You say you want players to " experience more varied content", which is fine, except you take the approach of forcing players to do so, instead of making them want to do so.

    That is just wrong.

    Let me give you a few examples of how you could have accomplished the goals, without causing the massive dissatisfaction you are dealing with now.

    Example approach 1:

    Get rid of Random queues and bonus AD altogether. Use the dungeon/skirmish quests formerly given out in the stronghold - giving them a 3-4 day cooldown instead of a week, and have them give a RAD reward so that basically, if you do all the different dungeons and skirmishes you qualify for twice per week, you get the same total RAD as you would have gotten from the Bonus system. And yes, do not give L 70s RAD for doing the leveling dungeons.

    Example approach 2:

    Get rid of random queues. Keep the bonus RAD system, but with a strict maximum per day. The first time you run specific dungeon/skirmish any given day, you get a bonus - however, you have full freedom over what you run, and when you run it. And yes, do not give L 70s Bonus RAD for doing the leveling dungeons.

    Example approach 2a:

    A variation on the previous approach, except the bonus rewards for any particular dungeon/skirmish are dynamically adjusted, depending on their popularity. So, if very few people want to run eCC, for example, it would start to give more and more RAD, until people start running it. This would give people a choice - they could either run a few unpopular dungeons skirmishes, or multiple popular ones to reach their daily maximum RAD.

    Example approach 2b:

    Another variation on approach 2 - instead of a daily maximum Bonus RAD, have a weekly maximum. This would be very popular with people who have limited play time on weekdays, but can play a lot more on weekends.

    Example approach 3:

    Keep the current flawed system, but allow private groups to queue for a random dungeon even if they do not match the 1+1+3 composition. Currently you are hurting guilds that want to give everyone a chance, or groups of friends that want to run together,even if they don't fit your idea of what a group should look like.

    Choice is good. Give players choices.

    Note that I am not suggesting implementing more tiers of random dungeons - that will not really fix anything.

    Post edited by adinosii on
    Hoping for improvements...
  • demonmongerdemonmonger Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 3,350 Arc User
    > @ontheleftcoast#2086 said:
    > The food's free, though.
    >
    > But it's not, we either put lots of time or real world money into this diner. And if nobody put real world money into it then it would've closed long, long ago.

    Even if it was a soup kitchen or bread line they cant say certain types wait in certain lines or sit at certain tables.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    I hate paying taxes! Why must I pay thousands of dollars in taxes when everything I buy is taxed anyways!
  • meiramimeirami Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 423 Arc User
    adinosii said:

    --Snip--

    Example approach 2a:

    A variation on the previous approach, except the bonus rewards for any particular dungeon/skirmish are dynamically adjusted, depending on their popularity. So, if very few people want to run eCC, for example, it would start to give more and more RAD, until people start running it. This would give people a choice - they could either run a few unpopular dungeons skirmishes, or multiple popular ones to reach their daily maximum RAD.

    Example approach 2b:

    Another variation on approach 2 - instead of a daily maximum Bonus RAD, have a weekly maximum. This would be very popular with people who have limited play time on weekdays, but can play a lot more on weekends.

    Example approach 3:

    Keep the current flawed system, but allow private groups to queue for a random dungeon even if they do not match the 1+1+3 composition. Currently you are hurting guilds that want to give everyone a chance, or groups of friends that want to run together,even if they don't fit your idea of what a group should look like.
    All three of those are very good options, but what about:

    4)
    Give a bonus reward for any first dungeon/skirmish of the day (or a weekly maximum like in Example 2b), but keep the random queue as an option for those who feel more adventurous/bored. Like in Example 3, allow private queueing with any party composition. Both selectively queuing and random queuing give the exact same amount of AD, but the rewards are mutually exclusive, so people who dislike random queues don't feel forced to run them.

  • demonmongerdemonmonger Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 3,350 Arc User
    > @litaaers said:
    > I saw a post comparing Neverwinter to a restaurant, and thought it was such a great analogy that it deserved its own thread.
    >
    > So here goes:
    > There is a restaurant.
    >
    > It is a great little place. Sure, it may not have a Michelin star rating, but it has some really great dishes (and some that are not so great, so you only tried them once). Many other customers agree and a few of the dishes are pretty much universal favorites, although most customers try some of the other dishes for a change every now and then.
    >
    > Over the years you have gotten to know many of the other regular customers. Some of them are your friends and you regularly go to the restaurant together and have some of the dishes you like.
    >
    > There are a few things some people are unhappy about - a few years ago there were some good dishes that were removed from the menu, and while some of them were brought back in a simplified or reworked form, many people still miss some of their old favorites.
    >
    > There are also complaints about the service - the kitchen only prepares a dish when enough people have ordered it and sometimes you have to wait quite a bit to get your order.
    >
    > Still, the food is good, and people keep coming to the place.
    >
    > However, the restaurant just made a big policy change:
    >
    > "We have observed that our customers keep ordering the same dishes over and over, but we would like you to have a more varied experience. From now on, you will only choose the the price category of the dish, and we will bring you something from our old menu (regardless of whether you like it or not).
    >
    > We have also decided we want each table to reflect our community better, so each table will seat three dark-haired customers, one red-haired and one blonde. You will be automatically seated at the first available table that has an opening for your hair color. If your hair color does not match any of those categories we will decide what your hair color should be and seat you accordingly.
    >
    > This allows us to increase the portion size and speed up the service, so the average customer should be able to eat more in a shorter time.
    >
    > We are sure you will love those changes.
    >
    > And yes, if you still want to eat with your friends, but you have the wrong hair color combination, you can sit at the table in the corner and have some cold leftovers."
    >
    >
    > Would you continue to eat at the restaurant after those changes?
    >
    > This analogy is flawed in SO many ways.
    >
    > You leave out the part where anyone can come in the restaurant, whether you pay or not. And the part where THEY give YOU something of (some) value after you eat, regardless of your payment situation, IF you eat from the surprise menu.
    >
    > Also, you use hair color, when the 'seating arrangement' is done by role (which could be worked on), but the example you give is totally disingenuous.
    >
    > AND you can bring your friends to the table, choose your meal, at your leisure. You just don't get the free gift in the Jolly Meal.
    >
    > IMO, this analogy does nothing to futher your cause, and may actually hurt it by adding hyberbole to the argument.
    >
    > EDIT: This, of course, is aimed at the OP of the analogy.

    No no anyone can eat, but you must buy a key for your fortune cookie and your dessert chest.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    I hate paying taxes! Why must I pay thousands of dollars in taxes when everything I buy is taxed anyways!
  • stupidconversionstupidconversion Member Posts: 33 Arc User
    All analogies are imperfect, because they aren't clones, they're analogies.

    This analogy works well enough, and the answer is no: I'm not going to that restaurant, and I'm not running random queues.
  • wintersmokewintersmoke Member Posts: 1,641 Arc User
    meirami said:

    The food's free, though.

    Nevermind, I clearly failed to make the point you get some AD for your troubles in Random Queue and that there are other ways to make AD, although many of those ways aren't free from the RNG either.

    Free food*

    *Unless you want tosit down, eat, and leave in less than two hours. If so, there is a $50.00 speed up fee.

  • fns2005fns2005 Member Posts: 335 Arc User
    Hope you guys are following this thread and take the player's critiques to heart.

    https://www.reddit.com/r/Neverwinter/comments/78noq3/im_not_mad_im_just_disappointed/
  • lantern22lantern22 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,111 Arc User
    edited November 2017
    A pub we used to go to had a great (locally famous) burger on the menu, was very, very popular. One day it was gone and replaced with something else that was terrible (i.e. some kind of chicken burger with relish).

    When we asked why, the response was that it was too popular and the Chef got sick of making it so they took it off the menu . . . . . ???

    Feels like cryptic have done something similar. but I have to admit that the Randon Q isn't as bad as a though it would be, I don't like it, but I don't dislike as much as I expected I would.
    Post edited by lantern22 on
  • strathkinstrathkin Member Posts: 1,587 Arc User
    I like the Random Skirmish very much. But honestly the 12+ Dungeon for 7900 ad really is kind of dumb; like no skill or challenge even the slightest for any end game player.

    They need to make Random 12+ Dungeon a 2000-2900 AD reward, for mostly new players.

    Add Random (Endgame) Dungeon to be 7500 Dungeon's exclusively for the 7900 ad reward with chance of decent drops if a key is used.

    Make Random Epic Dungeon's equal to / higher than 8400 at the least.

    I just don't like having to do mostly 7 Cloak Tower dungeon's across my various toons to earn 7900 AD. It's just a silly way to waste an hour doing something which gives no reward's or even earns end game currency toward's campaign's...
  • rannxeroxxrannxeroxx Member Posts: 168 Arc User
    strathkin said:

    I like the Random Skirmish very much. But honestly the 12+ Dungeon for 7900 ad really is kind of dumb; like no skill or challenge even the slightest for any end game player.

    They need to make Random 12+ Dungeon a 2000-2900 AD reward, for mostly new players.

    Add Random (Endgame) Dungeon to be 7500 Dungeon's exclusively for the 7900 ad reward with chance of decent drops if a key is used.

    Make Random Epic Dungeon's equal to / higher than 8400 at the least.

    I just don't like having to do mostly 7 Cloak Tower dungeon's across my various toons to earn 7900 AD. It's just a silly way to waste an hour doing something which gives no reward's or even earns end game currency toward's campaign's...

    It sounds like your problem is noting wanting to do the low level dungeons. Instead of taking AD away from low levels (they spend it pretty quickly just learning the game) just have your available queue with both a ceiling and a floor. In other words, a low level is not getting into the harder dungeons, just make it so the high levels are not queued in lower content areas. But that, of course, does not meet the "diversity" and high levels helping new player goals of the devs.
  • zomak#4611 zomak Member Posts: 223 Arc User
    > @rannxeroxx said:
    > I like the Random Skirmish very much. But honestly the 12+ Dungeon for 7900 ad really is kind of dumb; like no skill or challenge even the slightest for any end game player.
    >
    > They need to make Random 12+ Dungeon a 2000-2900 AD reward, for mostly new players.
    >
    > Add Random (Endgame) Dungeon to be 7500 Dungeon's exclusively for the 7900 ad reward with chance of decent drops if a key is used.
    >
    > Make Random Epic Dungeon's equal to / higher than 8400 at the least.
    >
    > I just don't like having to do mostly 7 Cloak Tower dungeon's across my various toons to earn 7900 AD. It's just a silly way to waste an hour doing something which gives no reward's or even earns end game currency toward's campaign's...
    >
    > It sounds like your problem is noting wanting to do the low level dungeons. Instead of taking AD away from low levels (they spend it pretty quickly just learning the game) just have your available queue with both a ceiling and a floor. In other words, a low level is not getting into the harder dungeons, just make it so the high levels are not queued in lower content areas. But that, of course, does not meet the "diversity" and high levels helping new player goals of the devs.

    How does me one shoting everything in cloak tower despite trying not to help new players with anything besides making their daily AD.

    I ran cloak tower last week with a low level from my guild and another low level because they wanted(and needed) help with it. The experience I don't think was good for any of us. They didn't seem to understand why I didn't die or even take any damage. Furthermore if I hit anything at all, even with just an at will it instantly died. I was trying to let them fight some to learn but the only way to do that was to not fight at all but then they were 2 low levels in a 3 person dungeon which hurt them instead of helped so then I was forced to 1 shot to keep them from dying. I even dismissed my air archon because HE was one shoting everything.

    In hindsight I could/should have removed all my armor, rings, maybe even artifacts and ran it with just my weapons. I probably still would have been over powered even then just from my weapons and boons.
  • cilginordekcilginordek Member Posts: 459 Arc User
    Where is this restaurant that gives free food?
  • adinosiiadinosii Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 4,294 Arc User

    Where is this restaurant that gives free food?

    No free food - you can either pay for it, or work for it by washing dishes. Oh, they sometimes have promotions where they give away samples pg appetizers for free, but that's all - the main courses are never free.

    Hoping for improvements...
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