That was the WORST, cheapest, most underhanded fight I have ever seen

hustin1
hustin1 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 3,318 Arc User
edited November 2017 in Player Feedback (PC)
Devs, I'm speaking of the first time you enter the House of the Crocodile. I just ran my CW through it for the first time, one I might add has an IL of 14948, a control bonus of 118%, and a legendary Sergeant Knox defending her.

No joke. That was the single most awful experience I've ever had on a quest. It was not remotely fun. I don't want to ever have to run another alt through it.

The chain-stunning is the problem, as well as the cheap way that you get hit with it.

Ras Nsi has an attack with a huge diameter near him that stuns you. It comes with no, repeat NO, warning. If you are within that radius (which is never indicated to you), you are stunned. It's effectively impossible to avoid.

Then there's the attack where you have to stand on an extremely narrow path to avoid the stun. Unfortunately, if you were already stunned from a previous attack, guess what, you have ZERO chance to avoid this chain-stun, since you apparently need pixel-perfect precision to stand in the EXACT center of the path to avoid it (and if you were previously stunned, you won't be able to move anyway).

And THEN, to add insult to injury, the cycle time of the stuns. They come SO OFTEN that most of the time you cannot take a single action--you can't cast anything because the spell takes longer to cast than the interval between stuns. Forget about using a daily like Ice Knife, that takes far too long and the stun always interrupts you. Same goes for some artifacts -- her Token of Chromatic Storm takes an ETERNITY compared to those nonstop stuns. If you are extremely lucky, you have enough stamina to dodge, but since one of his stun attacks leaves you with REPEATED, RAPID stuns for such a long time, you will run out of stamina almost immediately.

Never mind that my CW also has gobs of alleged control resistance. It seems that control resistance doesn't work in Chult.

You don't want to know how many health stone charges I had to use up. I lost count.

Devs, please hear me. This fight was NOT FUN. I absolutely hate it. I'm tempted to say that I loathe this mod because of the nonstop stuns and knockdowns, but I'm not QUITE there yet. But this quest -- I hate it, passionately and viscerally. It is the single-most awful quest I've ever encountered, one that is truly beyond the pale. It tempts me, if and when they become available, to buy a Chult campaign token for any other alts just to avoid it, and I shouldn't have to.

I hope you take this as criticism of this quest in the harshest possible terms, because that is my intent. It needs to change.

Ok...something constructive. These are the issues to address:

- Short cycle time between stuns
- Long duration of stun effect results in chaining
- Too narrow path to avoid a stun
- No indication of the "stunned if within radius" attack coming
- No indication of the radius of aforementioned attack
- Control resist seems to have no effect
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Post edited by hustin1 on

Comments

  • pitshade
    pitshade Member Posts: 5,420 Arc User
    Partial Paralysis is a truly awful idea, especially once you realize that certain classes are basically immune to it's effects.
    "We have always been at war with Dread Vault" ~ Little Brother
  • hirogarde
    hirogarde Member Posts: 122 Arc User
    hustin1 said:

    - Control resist seems to have no effect

    This isn't entirely true. Control resist has a huge effect on the duration of the stun. I thought it didn't work either until I played an alt without any.

    You mentioned having 118% Control Bonus, that won't do much good on a boss... Control Resist will. The interrupts sill still happen if you can't dodge the attack, but the duration is significantly reduced.

    I personally think it's a well designed fight. It's soloable by most classes (with enough practice), but way easier (and faster) when teamed with anyone - meaning solo-possible, but group friendly.

    Yes, Chult in general has way too much CC on the mobs (poor design decision IMO), but it does add a level of difficulty to the fights that disappear (mostly) when grouped; and that's one of their current goals - to develop more reasons for people to group up.
  • tripsofthrymr
    tripsofthrymr Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,624 Community Moderator
    It wasn't as challenging for me on my CW as you describe, though it was a tough fight as fights in Neverwinter go. I wonder if other factors are at play, such as lag or some red areas not being drawn for you. It shouldn't be too hard to find a partner in zone to duo the fight.
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  • hustin1
    hustin1 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 3,318 Arc User
    edited November 2017
    A side issue that surely factored into it is the fact that my CW is deliberately built as a Spellstorm Oppressor, i.e. a CC build. I have many alts and others are built differently, but Miri is and will remain a CC mage. More and more, content has been set up such that Oppressors have what I think is an unduly hard time. The worst was SOMI, simply because half the enemies are immune to CC. I won't ever bother taking her to FBI or Svardborg; a CC build has absolutely no utility there, certainly not enough to offset the opportunity cost of not having a DPS CW. Being a CC build having to deal with a CC-immune boss who can chain-stun you at will, often with zero warning, is not remotely fun, even though the Oppressor tree is **supposed** to be viable. Today, it most certainly is not -- it hasn't been viable since the advent of mod 6, when content shifted from dealing with adds to (CC-immune) bosses with absurd amounts of HP. When I play Miri I feel like persona non grata, and adding chain-stuns to said CC-immune-with-ludicrous-speed-HP enemy is, frankly, outrageous -- ***especially*** for a quest that we are supposed to be able to solo. I would remind people that Miri is just short of 15k IL, yet it took half an hour to finish the fight and I think I had to use 9 health stone charges. CC builds require control strength and recovery, which she has in spades, but fights like this are nigh impossible.
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  • meirami
    meirami Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 423 Arc User
    A lot of cc in Chult seems to ignore control immunity. I like the mod and don't mind the added challenge, but it is a bit cheap when a trash mob's cc goes through AA and Oghma's Token of Free Movement.

    @hustin1 I'm sure you've considered this, but since bosses often are cc-immune, why not just make an emergency Renegade/Thaumaturge loadout for solo target dps? Please don't take this the wrong way. I just think there's no reason to torture yourself with hour-long mini boss fights when doing solo content.
  • mamalion1234
    mamalion1234 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 3,379 Arc User
    meirami said:

    A lot of cc in Chult seems to ignore control immunity. I like the mod and don't mind the added challenge, but it is a bit cheap when a trash mob's cc goes through AA and Oghma's Token of Free Movement.



    @hustin1 I'm sure you've considered this, but since bosses often are cc-immune, why not just make an emergency Renegade/Thaumaturge loadout for solo target dps? Please don't take this the wrong way. I just think there's no reason to torture yourself with hour-long mini boss fights when doing solo content.

    Turn your back to the eye-charm.
    Get out of the red area that cause you fear effect.
    Get out of the other red area that make you prone.
    Get out of the archer beam that make you get paralysis.

    That for the " thrash".
  • meirami
    meirami Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 423 Arc User
    @mamalion1234 I know how to deal with them. It seems like NW is breaking its own rules, however, by having non-boss monsters in Chult wave off total control immunity like Oghma. Although I don't mind that in-game at all, Chult is a sudden exception after 11 mods.
  • rjc9000
    rjc9000 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 2,398 Arc User
    Congratulations, that's what happens when you port the T9G final boss, intended for multiple players, to solo!

    It surely wouldn't have caused a difficulty spike, especially considering how hard soloing is, right?

    Sarcasm aside, once you figure out what to do and plan your moves in advance, he's not too bad.

    If you see his sword turn on fire, dodge and GTFO out of the way.
    If you see him preparing a GWF Reaping Strike/Link Spin attack animation, GTFO of the way.
    hustin1 said:



    Then there's the attack where you have to stand on an extremely narrow path to avoid the stun. Unfortunately, if you were already stunned from a previous attack, guess what, you have ZERO chance to avoid this chain-stun, since you apparently need pixel-perfect precision to stand in the EXACT center of the path to avoid it (and if you were previously stunned, you won't be able to move anyway).

    The red line attack is one of the easier attacks to dodge. Just stand in the gaps, using the circle underneath your character to line yourself up in the gap. If you were paying attention to the boss' animations, then you would take the spin attack animation as your sign to back FAR away from the boss. Less reactionary play and more prediction play.

    Oh, speaking of pixel perfect, I really want the devs to do something like this:



    Make something like this for the final phase of the final boss of the Mod14 trial/dungeon, it would be great to troll all the high epeen level "dont need to dodge" wallet warriors. :trollface:

  • iandarksword
    iandarksword Member Posts: 976 Arc User
    @hustin1 The weekly version isn't as brutal or lengthy as the initial one. If you need backup, just send me a pm if I'm online, I'll help you through. :)
    "I don't know, I'm making it up as I go..."
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  • martelis1981
    martelis1981 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 121 Arc User
    edited November 2017
    LOL, of course you will fail with that pvp build, wrong companion for a cw, etc. Look at this guy for example, low dps :) : It's not easy but it's not a nightmare either. The problem seems to be between the chair and the keyboard ;)
  • redgrund
    redgrund Member Posts: 4 Arc User
    control bonus does nothing to bosses, what you need is control resist to reduce the time of the stuns. Get a companion like slyph that gives +50% control resist as active.
  • hustin1
    hustin1 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 3,318 Arc User
    edited November 2017

    LOL, of course you will fail with that pvp build, wrong companion for a cw, etc. Look at this guy for example, low dps :) : It's not easy but it's not a nightmare either. The problem seems to be between the chair and the keyboard ;)

    Except that I don't PVP -- EVER. A CC build is meant for managing lots of enemies. For instance, in a place like Tiamat, she can lock down everything near the cleric -- with 118% control bonus, NOTHING escapes being frozen. She can even keep those lesser bone golems in Chult nearly perma-frozen, and you don't want to know what she did to Baccho -- it was a cat-sicle from the first cast of Icy Terrain all the way to the end.

    I just watched the vid. The very first thing I noticed is that the paralysis is proccing FAR less frequently. For me it was proccing every 2 seconds or so: so rapidly that most of the time I couldn't get a single encounter off before being paralyzed again.
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  • gabrieldourden
    gabrieldourden Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,212 Arc User
    I had a similar issue with my SW. Ras Nsi was much faster in cycling his powers compared to when I did it with my HR. Luckily my Temptlock was extremely tanky and I managed to get through but there was some clear difference.
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  • plasticbat
    plasticbat Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 10,455 Arc User
    edited November 2017
    Personally, I have no problem with this fight. I played 5 toons with item level 12K to 14K. None of them is CW though. They have no problem for their very first fight with this boss. They were solo and did not need to repeat (after death). 3 of them only had rank 8 bonding runestone and one was using augment pet.
    *** The game can read your mind. If you want it, you won't get it. If you don't expect to get it, you will. ***
  • martelis1981
    martelis1981 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 121 Arc User
    edited November 2017
    hustin1 said:



    Except that I don't PVP -- EVER. A CC build is meant for managing lots of enemies. For instance, in a place like Tiamat, she can lock down everything near the cleric -- with 118% control bonus, NOTHING escapes being frozen. She can even keep those lesser bone golems in Chult nearly perma-frozen, and you don't want to know what she did to Baccho -- it was a cat-sicle from the first cast of Icy Terrain all the way to the end.

    I just watched the vid. The very first thing I noticed is that the paralysis is proccing FAR less frequently. For me it was proccing every 2 seconds or so: so rapidly that most of the time I couldn't get a single encounter off before being paralyzed again.

    That's the point. You're doing it wrong, the cc and specially the oppresor path has been nerfed for a long time. You said it, cc only works on the lesser mobs. The control builds are relegated to pvp, they are almost useless in pve, because the elite mobs and bosses are INMUNE to cc. That's why you should create a loadout of Thaumaturge dps or MoF. Watch the guides or videos on youtube, no one relies on the CC except you are going to do exclusively pvp.

  • sangrine
    sangrine Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 575 Arc User
    Bosses can not be controlled. Ditch the crowd control build.
    Bosses can be tanked and you can self-buff and self-heal. Be Renegade CW for increased self-healing.
    With shield on tab, the boss will not one-shot kill you.
    use ray of enfeeblement because it reduces boss out-going damage.
    use DoT attacks (CoI, FtF, IT) because it does damage while you are controlled and lifesteal proc's on DoT's which means you are healed while you are controlled.
  • wickedduck22#9795
    wickedduck22#9795 Member Posts: 100 Arc User
    I think he is too weak and needs to be buffed :)
  • plasticbat
    plasticbat Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 10,455 Arc User
    Need a load for mob and a loadout for single target.
    *** The game can read your mind. If you want it, you won't get it. If you don't expect to get it, you will. ***
  • rannxeroxx
    rannxeroxx Member Posts: 168 Arc User
    hirogarde said:

    hustin1 said:

    - Control resist seems to have no effect

    Yes, Chult in general has way too much CC on the mobs (poor design decision IMO), but it does add a level of difficulty to the fights that disappear (mostly) when grouped; and that's one of their current goals - to develop more reasons for people to group up.
    NO!!!! Why do we have to group? Why can't we just solo? Why can't we play and enjoy the game like we want to? Is this freak'n group therapy or something?

    What is the goal of this game? It is for PW to make money. If they make money with players solo or players grouping, why do they care, the money is the same.

    Stop forcing players to do X when they don't want to do X.

  • minotaur2857
    minotaur2857 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,140 Arc User
    This fight is not that difficult (one day I'd unsummoned my pet and forgot to resummon it, meaning I did it without bondings, it just took a while), but it IS irritating.

    What I don't understand is how anybody thought the CC thru immunities could possibly be considered fun. Many of us play the classes we play purely because we don't enjoy being CCd, and indeed something about the way my eyes follow constant knockback tends to give me a headache so makes it difficult for me to play. The whole of Chult is a nightmare, even on a class which has a mez immunity power, very often the ones that go through it followed by others mean you don't get the time to activate that immunity and are effectively CCd for 15-20 seconds with nothing you can do. It doesn't help trying to time it that when you visually get up is nowhere close to when the game thinks you've stood up so can activate powers and some of the CC immunities take a long time to activate so get interrupted.
  • reg1981
    reg1981 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,410 Arc User

    hirogarde said:

    hustin1 said:

    - Control resist seems to have no effect

    Yes, Chult in general has way too much CC on the mobs (poor design decision IMO), but it does add a level of difficulty to the fights that disappear (mostly) when grouped; and that's one of their current goals - to develop more reasons for people to group up.
    NO!!!! Why do we have to group? Why can't we just solo? Why can't we play and enjoy the game like we want to? Is this freak'n group therapy or something?

    What is the goal of this game? It is for PW to make money. If they make money with players solo or players grouping, why do they care, the money is the same.

    Stop forcing players to do X when they don't want to do X.

    You realize this is an MMO right? lmao
  • reg1981
    reg1981 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,410 Arc User
    edited November 2017
    I also suggest another loadout for more single target type fights. You'll struggle more and more playing end game content with a control build.

    Please do not be offended by people giving this feedback, I'm sure you've spent a lot of time and effort into your build and everyone is welcome to play the way they want to play however, you made this post looking for feedback. This is it.
  • reg1981
    reg1981 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,410 Arc User
    Also, you can keep your freeze crowd control with a DPS build. Just keep Icy Veins :)
  • clericalist
    clericalist Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 595 Arc User
    People have mentioned control resist, does it work in PVE? I once tried a sun elf cleric with 30 wisdom and a wisp, and I could not see any difference on all kinds of bosses like Tiamat, there was not a single control effect where I could see even a split second in time difference. I asked this question a few years back and got no response, so I am assuming that control resistance is still meant for PVP only.
  • plasticbat
    plasticbat Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 10,455 Arc User
    edited November 2017

    People have mentioned control resist, does it work in PVE? I once tried a sun elf cleric with 30 wisdom and a wisp, and I could not see any difference on all kinds of bosses like Tiamat, there was not a single control effect where I could see even a split second in time difference. I asked this question a few years back and got no response, so I am assuming that control resistance is still meant for PVP only.

    Control resistance is a PVP only stat. At least, it was. Wiki (that may be out-of-date) still says it is.
    *** The game can read your mind. If you want it, you won't get it. If you don't expect to get it, you will. ***
  • pitshade
    pitshade Member Posts: 5,420 Arc User
    The wiki actually lists 2 stats, Control Resist and Control Resistance, the latter is listed as being PVP. I am at work and unable to log in, but it seems like both are represented in the Character Sheet.

    I do know that there are artifacts that give one of those names. What the Slyph does is different, however as it isn't a numerical value but a percent value. Sharpedge mentions resistance formula in another thread:

    https://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter#/discussion/1236542/control-bonus

    The Slyph is unlikely to affect Tiamat's roar and possibly not the Ice Breath. It seems possible Sharpedge didn't test that. But it seems to work against common CCs.
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  • plasticbat
    plasticbat Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 10,455 Arc User
    edited November 2017
    Nevermind. I read that wrong.
    *** The game can read your mind. If you want it, you won't get it. If you don't expect to get it, you will. ***