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Random Dungeon Queue Change Needed

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  • maxzius#3795 maxzius Member Posts: 165 Arc User
    > @bodini72 said:
    > Can we please put in a +/- 2k IL for the members to be partied with? I am currently 15.5 and I decided to try the random epics and I was being grouped with folks barely past 10k IL. I was doing 3 times the amount of damage as the rest of my group combined. Yet NOT BEING rewarded for it.
    >
    > Even eTOS which was usually a breeze for the groups I normally ran them with prior to the patch was an agonizing 30 minute jaunt as players were literally pulling every single damn mob. The skill different is huge as well.
    >
    > This IMHO is utterly a horrible idea to gate RAD's behind this. At least make the party members comparable in IL
    >
    >
    > This couldn't be any more of an elitist mentality. I run/ran etos/cn/elol/esot on all my toons with everyone and anyone that wanted to come and very rarely did a 10k player cause chaos, ironically those high IL GWF's constantly caused chaos due to your exact mentality here.


    While I agree with you, something that I haven't seen anyone touch on yet is that 11k IL right now isn't the same 11k IL that it was yesterday before the bonding nerf.
  • plasticbatplasticbat Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 11,152 Arc User
    edited October 2017

    > @plasticbat said:

    > -> @asterotg said:

    >

    > >

    >

    > > Last words to this feature: It is more likely, that hell freezes over, then me running SOMI on 6 chars.

    >

    >

    >

    >

    >

    > This, I suspect, is exactly why the new SKT campaign buyout just happened to come out right before this stupid random Q.

    >

    > He already has a main finished SOMI. That means his alt only need item level and everforst resistance to enter FBI. Buying SKT campaign for his alt would not give his alt everfrost resistance.





    Yes it does. 30 percent, to be exact.

    You still need to do the quest in order to get periapt. SOMI campaign pack only gives you the boons.
    *** The game can read your mind. If you want it, you won't get it. If you don't expect to get it, you will. ***
  • kickiusassius#6340 kickiusassius Member Posts: 27 Arc User
    "Games should be fun"

    Random queue = Not fun experience.

    11.5k TR

    As a member of a small guild, I run epic dungeons to get shards to help it grow. Normally run Throne, Malabog's, Valindra's, Lair, Temple of the Spider, and CN. Not the greatest content, but still fun to run from time to time. I skip Prophecy, Cragmire, Gray Wolf, Fragbreaker, and Spellplague because I don't care for the content. Up until now I've been able to provide the guild with Dungeoneer shards, which is one of the most needed items, by playing content I didn't mind playing. Now I'm at a cross-roads... After a long day of work, should I help my guild and be miserable or say sorry dudes, deal with it.

    I don't have an issue with random queues because I can just not do it, but you just blocked me from helping my guild by forcing me to play miserable content. I probably wouldn't be so mad about this, but every other item that can be donated to the guild can be gathered by opening lockboxes and purchased from AH(for reasaonble prices). So please either remove the Random Queue requirement for Dungeoneer Shards or add them to Lockboxes. Both would be great.
  • maxzius#3795 maxzius Member Posts: 165 Arc User
    > @plasticbat said:
    > > @plasticbat said:
    >
    > > -> @asterotg said:
    >
    > >
    >
    > > >
    >
    > >
    >
    > > > Last words to this feature: It is more likely, that hell freezes over, then me running SOMI on 6 chars.
    >
    > >
    >
    > >
    >
    > >
    >
    > >
    >
    > >
    >
    > > This, I suspect, is exactly why the new SKT campaign buyout just happened to come out right before this stupid random Q.
    >
    > >
    >
    > > He already has a main finished SOMI. That means his alt only need item level and everforst resistance to enter FBI. Buying SKT campaign for his alt would not give his alt everfrost resistance.
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > Yes it does. 30 percent, to be exact.
    >
    > You still need to do the quest in order to get periapt. SOMI campaign pack only gives you the boons.


    Well that's... Odd.

    Thanks, didn't know that.
  • asterotgasterotg Member Posts: 1,742 Arc User
    To clear things up. i DID unlock FBI on 2 chars, got the campain for the 30% everfrost resistance on a 3rd one and I have 3 more chars with 13-15k IL, who could run epic dungeon que, if they would get rid of the everfrost resistance HAMSTER.

    I HATE this grind. The HOURs wasted collecting relics on my main, to get the boons. More hours for 2 more chars. The rest will never set a foot in SOMI.
    Chars: CW, DC, GF, GWF, HR and TR.
  • araxelvenaraxelven Member Posts: 72 Arc User
    edited October 2017
    I tried the random queues as well last night and ended getting Throne (I did 85% of the dps, nice because I hadn't done that one in months and got good loot) and MPF (no gold, but 2/3rd of the dps as well).

    I kinda like helping others as long as they aren't slacking themselves but I'll probably change my mind when I get dumped in FBI, MSVA or (god forbid) MSP with randoms. Clearly there is no good reason for those three to be grouped with regular dungeons or skirms. There's a 90 to 99% chance of failure with those three in these conditions.
  • chemjeffchemjeff Member Posts: 544 Arc User


    Even eTOS which was usually a breeze for the groups I normally ran them with prior to the patch was an agonizing 30 minute jaunt as players were literally pulling every single damn mob. The skill different is huge as well.

    Translation: I was in a group that was playing the dungeon the way it was meant to be played, and not speed-running from door to door for maximum efficiency. How dare those lowbies slow down those speed runs that I have become accustomed to!

  • marv700#9957 marv700 Member Posts: 135 Arc User
    chemjeff said:


    Even eTOS which was usually a breeze for the groups I normally ran them with prior to the patch was an agonizing 30 minute jaunt as players were literally pulling every single damn mob. The skill different is huge as well.

    Translation: I was in a group that was playing the dungeon the way it was meant to be played, and not speed-running from door to door for maximum efficiency. How dare those lowbies slow down those speed runs that I have become accustomed to!

    How are they supposed to be played? Get a bag of popcorn and spend all night in there only to get your crappy daily AD and HAMSTER loot?

    Until they address the loot, no one wants to spend a second longer than they need to in any of these places. It's not like it gets more fun after you have run it 100 times.
  • mordekai#1901 mordekai Member Posts: 1,598 Arc User

    Can we please put in a +/- 2k IL for the members to be partied with? I am currently 15.5 and I decided to try the random epics and I was being grouped with folks barely past 10k IL. I was doing 3 times the amount of damage as the rest of my group combined. Yet NOT BEING rewarded for it.

    Even eTOS which was usually a breeze for the groups I normally ran them with prior to the patch was an agonizing 30 minute jaunt as players were literally pulling every single damn mob. The skill different is huge as well.

    This IMHO is utterly a horrible idea to gate RAD's behind this. At least make the party members comparable in IL

    What makes this hilarious is that those other players were all on alts, since in order to qualify for Epic Random Que they would have had to have another character that had already unlocked FBI and MSP

    Basically, you got the random privilege of carrying some mules through eToS so they could get free RAD

    They probably knew the dungeon just fine, but probably didn't have more than a few enchants between them and no experience at all in their classes

    Just count your lucky stars you didn't get FBI or MSP lol
    What makes it even more hilarious is that that's not how it works.

    At "barely past 10K" they were queuing public standard queue for that specific dungeon.
    You see, Epic "Random" Queue is not random and cannot be entered by anyone below 11K, regardless of inherited unlocks. That IL gate is immovable.

    ERQ doesn;t run an RNG on where you go unless you take a premade group in. Otherwise it takes you to wherever you will fill a queue, and this includes filling in with people below 11K queuing in standard public queues.
    So contrary to your assumption that they were coasting for RAD, the "mules" could not get any bonu RAD from that EToS run, because at below 11K they could not queue for Epic Random Dungeon and that is the only way you can get bonus RAD in EToS.

    THEY chose to queue for that dungeon, and were quite possibly novices at running it.

    It is very clear that the Devs suggestion that by introducing ERQ, high level players would show some empathy and help the lower level players is just another ill thought through idea...
  • mordekai#1901 mordekai Member Posts: 1,598 Arc User
    edited October 2017

    > @plasticbat said:

    > -> @asterotg said:

    >

    > >

    >

    > > Last words to this feature: It is more likely, that hell freezes over, then me running SOMI on 6 chars.

    >

    >

    >

    >

    >

    > This, I suspect, is exactly why the new SKT campaign buyout just happened to come out right before this stupid random Q.

    >

    > He already has a main finished SOMI. That means his alt only need item level and everforst resistance to enter FBI. Buying SKT campaign for his alt would not give his alt everfrost resistance.





    Yes it does. 30 percent, to be exact.

    Yeah... BUT, you still have to go in, begin the campaign, and complete the quests to get the periapt. even if you buy the SKT Campaign Completion pack.
    You also have to travel to SOMI if you want the boat and rod for ue in Chult...

    Not what I was expecting when I bought it. Aside from the hellish grind, just the thought of entering the zones gives me migraine flashbacks, so the prospect of never having to even set foot in the bloody place was incentive enough to buy the pack.

    When I found out that the periapt, boat and rod didn't come with the pack I was... vexed... to say the least.
  • kalimoucho44kalimoucho44 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 28 Arc User
    The game is translated in various languages.

    With the random queue, everybody needs to speak english (specially in strategics dungeon)

    How about all the people who don't speak english ?
    Tr BlackbombA
    French guild : L'Ordre Du Dragon Noir
  • chemjeffchemjeff Member Posts: 544 Arc User

    chemjeff said:


    Even eTOS which was usually a breeze for the groups I normally ran them with prior to the patch was an agonizing 30 minute jaunt as players were literally pulling every single damn mob. The skill different is huge as well.

    Translation: I was in a group that was playing the dungeon the way it was meant to be played, and not speed-running from door to door for maximum efficiency. How dare those lowbies slow down those speed runs that I have become accustomed to!

    How are they supposed to be played? Get a bag of popcorn and spend all night in there only to get your crappy daily AD and HAMSTER loot?

    Until they address the loot, no one wants to spend a second longer than they need to in any of these places. It's not like it gets more fun after you have run it 100 times.
    f
    Well, it's rather obvious how it's supposed to work:

    1. Run to mob
    2. Kill mob
    3. Repeat

    Now I frankly don't care how you choose to do any dungeon among your private group of friends. But when you queue publicly, don't be surprised if the group does the dungeon as it's actually supposed to be done, and for heaven's sake, don't criticize them for doing the dungeon the proper way even if it is the slow way.

    If you wanted a speed run, then queue with friends. If you queue with strangers, then don't complain when they do strange things.
  • earlgreybeardearlgreybeard Member Posts: 402 Arc User
    araxelven said:

    There's a 90 to 99% chance of failure with those three in these conditions.

    very true.. I think what needs to happen is that these 3 dungeons go into a T3 random epic dungeon queue where 13kiL (possibly 14k)is the minimum and that you need the unlock for , and CN and all dungeons below that.. into a regular random epic dungeon queue that 9 -10+iL + can queue for
    Guild Leader Den of the Misfits
  • mentinmindmakermentinmindmaker Member Posts: 1,442 Arc User
    edited October 2017
    After a few days of enjoying visiting old classic levelling dungeons, the lack of challenge in them is really getting at me. The epic dungeons at least got some potential to kill you.. levelling dungeons not.

    Running that many levelling dungeons frankly is boring - and game is supposed to be fun?

    I want to go back to where I can make my daily AD quota by running somewhat challenging content, even if it seems to be faster to get the AD now.

    I do appreciate the better spread in dungeon usage though, and to me it makes sense you should be able to handle all/most dungeons in game to get your full rewards.

    I would suggest:
    1: Roll back the RQ system and go back to the way it was
    2: To counter people farming just one dungeon to death, make a diminishing returns system where you get reduced or no rewards after the 4th run of the same dungeon/skirmish in a week.
    3: The role and newbie bonuses can be kept too.


  • mordekai#1901 mordekai Member Posts: 1,598 Arc User

    chemjeff said:


    Even eTOS which was usually a breeze for the groups I normally ran them with prior to the patch was an agonizing 30 minute jaunt as players were literally pulling every single damn mob. The skill different is huge as well.

    Translation: I was in a group that was playing the dungeon the way it was meant to be played, and not speed-running from door to door for maximum efficiency. How dare those lowbies slow down those speed runs that I have become accustomed to!

    How are they supposed to be played? Get a bag of popcorn and spend all night in there only to get your crappy daily AD and HAMSTER loot?

    Until they address the loot, no one wants to spend a second longer than they need to in any of these places. It's not like it gets more fun after you have run it 100 times.
    It's probably, as with most things like this, a point somewhere in the middle.

    A point called "compromise"...

    IF speed heroes slow down just a bit and help the 10K guys en route to the gate boss they will probably find that the overall run is quicker than dashing off and ignoring stuff to kill a boss and get all irate about how 10K characters aren't as fast/powerful/super important as 15.5K characters.

    If left to their own devices you will no doubt be waiting for repawns and overlong fights. That's just common sense.

    Try it... helping them... not just by vritue of being special and simply being there. But actually hanging back and helping them deal with the stuff they are not yet equipped to handle. As you slow down a bit, they will speed up.

    Call it "Enlightened Self Interest" if that makes you feel better.
  • mordekai#1901 mordekai Member Posts: 1,598 Arc User
    Well, there has been this bit of advice that elite players are always telling novices when it comes to getting the most out of dungeon and skirmish runs, when they're not being able to keep up with the best of the best...

    "Find a group of friends and run with them."

    I suppose the same good advice applies if you're 15K, playing sub 10K content and unsurprisingly finding it filled with sub 10K characters.

    OK, I admit, I would probably take some perverse pleasure from the irony of sad elites standing in PE asking for queue groups for ERDQ and ERSQ cos the horrible subbies they keep running with in random queues don't seem to give a damn about their needs...
  • bodini72bodini72 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 72 Arc User

    chemjeff said:


    Now I frankly don't care how you choose to do any dungeon among your private group of friends. But when you queue publicly, don't be surprised if the group does the dungeon as it's actually supposed to be done, and for heaven's sake, don't criticize them for doing the dungeon the proper way even if it is the slow way.

    So killing the Thune Hulks instead of leading them to charge into the gates or the boss' shield in ToDG is how the game is supposed to be done? Because this is what I see over and over again when I use the public queve.

    Explaining to the pugs what to do/not do does not work, nor does begging them. The sign telling them what to do in the game does not work either. They have a thirst for Thune Hulk blood in ToDG that just cant be quenched.

    you know [email protected] well that is NOT what he is talking about, yet you felt the need to use an example that has no legitimacy in the discussion.

    While I won't argue there are many players out there that either don't know or just don't care, that doesn't change the fact that they are (hopefully) actual real people on the other end and not computer AI. I would however argue that I have had more chaos in runs from overgeared ppl that refuse to make any accommodation/compromise than undergeared ppl (by a long shot).

  • chemjeffchemjeff Member Posts: 544 Arc User

    bodini72 said:

    chemjeff said:


    Now I frankly don't care how you choose to do any dungeon among your private group of friends. But when you queue publicly, don't be surprised if the group does the dungeon as it's actually supposed to be done, and for heaven's sake, don't criticize them for doing the dungeon the proper way even if it is the slow way.

    So killing the Thune Hulks instead of leading them to charge into the gates or the boss' shield in ToDG is how the game is supposed to be done? Because this is what I see over and over again when I use the public queve.

    Explaining to the pugs what to do/not do does not work, nor does begging them. The sign telling them what to do in the game does not work either. They have a thirst for Thune Hulk blood in ToDG that just cant be quenched.

    you know [email protected] well that is NOT what he is talking about, yet you felt the need to use an example that has no legitimacy in the discussion.

    While I won't argue there are many players out there that either don't know or just don't care, that doesn't change the fact that they are (hopefully) actual real people on the other end and not computer AI. I would however argue that I have had more chaos in runs from overgeared ppl that refuse to make any accommodation/compromise than undergeared ppl (by a long shot).

    Pug qs are hell. The people in there dont pay attention to what they are doing, they ignore the mechanics the game tells them to use, they often will sit at the fire and expect and even demand in chat to be carried, and they almost always refuse to listen to explanations on how to do things. This is normal pug behavior, and the idea that pugs regularily do dungeons the proper way is to assinie for words.
    I have never once observed any pug queue member begging and demanding to be carried through a dungeon. Do they sometimes ignore mechanics and not listen to advice? Yes. That is different, however, than the entitled mentality that you are projecting on to them. And the OP was complaining not about pug queue members behaving badly, but for simply slowing him down as they didn't speed-run through the dungeon as fast as he was. Maybe both you and the OP should pause for a moment and realize that the game does not revolve around you, the world does not revolve around you, other people are going to sometimes behave differently than you would normally expect, that this is not necessarily wrong or terrible, just different, and if these differences get you so outraged and so upset, then maybe you should CHOOSE to stop putting yourself in those situations and stop using the public queue.
  • marv700#9957 marv700 Member Posts: 135 Arc User
    chemjeff said:

    chemjeff said:


    Even eTOS which was usually a breeze for the groups I normally ran them with prior to the patch was an agonizing 30 minute jaunt as players were literally pulling every single damn mob. The skill different is huge as well.

    Translation: I was in a group that was playing the dungeon the way it was meant to be played, and not speed-running from door to door for maximum efficiency. How dare those lowbies slow down those speed runs that I have become accustomed to!

    How are they supposed to be played? Get a bag of popcorn and spend all night in there only to get your crappy daily AD and HAMSTER loot?

    Until they address the loot, no one wants to spend a second longer than they need to in any of these places. It's not like it gets more fun after you have run it 100 times.
    f
    Well, it's rather obvious how it's supposed to work:

    1. Run to mob
    2. Kill mob
    3. Repeat

    Now I frankly don't care how you choose to do any dungeon among your private group of friends. But when you queue publicly, don't be surprised if the group does the dungeon as it's actually supposed to be done, and for heaven's sake, don't criticize them for doing the dungeon the proper way even if it is the slow way.

    If you wanted a speed run, then queue with friends. If you queue with strangers, then don't complain when they do strange things.
    That is the brain dead way to run dungeons. I can speedrun a dungeon and kill all the necessary mobs along the way without slowing down at all. Killing mobs that are not along the way just because they are there is the same as stepping into every trap along the way just because it's there.
  • bodini72bodini72 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 72 Arc User

    bodini72 said:

    chemjeff said:


    Now I frankly don't care how you choose to do any dungeon among your private group of friends. But when you queue publicly, don't be surprised if the group does the dungeon as it's actually supposed to be done, and for heaven's sake, don't criticize them for doing the dungeon the proper way even if it is the slow way.

    So killing the Thune Hulks instead of leading them to charge into the gates or the boss' shield in ToDG is how the game is supposed to be done? Because this is what I see over and over again when I use the public queve.

    Explaining to the pugs what to do/not do does not work, nor does begging them. The sign telling them what to do in the game does not work either. They have a thirst for Thune Hulk blood in ToDG that just cant be quenched.

    you know [email protected] well that is NOT what he is talking about, yet you felt the need to use an example that has no legitimacy in the discussion.

    While I won't argue there are many players out there that either don't know or just don't care, that doesn't change the fact that they are (hopefully) actual real people on the other end and not computer AI. I would however argue that I have had more chaos in runs from overgeared ppl that refuse to make any accommodation/compromise than undergeared ppl (by a long shot).

    Pug qs are hell. The people in there dont pay attention to what they are doing, they ignore the mechanics the game tells them to use, they often will sit at the fire and expect and even demand in chat to be carried, and they almost always refuse to listen to explanations on how to do things. This is normal pug behavior, and the idea that pugs regularily do dungeons the proper way is to assinie for words.
    I call BS on you entire comment. As the above poster already corrected you on, most pug's do not do what you claim. In fact in my experience (8 level 70's all 12-14.5k) it is the overgeared ppl that do exactly what you are trying (and failing miserably) to blame on pug's. This elitist mentality that only you know what should be done and all others should bow down to you is the biggest cause for chaos in dungeon runs. I run 7 of my 8 toons daily and i run them in dungeons every single day. Try using your BS on someone that doesn't know any better.

  • bodini72bodini72 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 72 Arc User

    chemjeff said:

    chemjeff said:


    Even eTOS which was usually a breeze for the groups I normally ran them with prior to the patch was an agonizing 30 minute jaunt as players were literally pulling every single damn mob. The skill different is huge as well.

    Translation: I was in a group that was playing the dungeon the way it was meant to be played, and not speed-running from door to door for maximum efficiency. How dare those lowbies slow down those speed runs that I have become accustomed to!

    How are they supposed to be played? Get a bag of popcorn and spend all night in there only to get your crappy daily AD and HAMSTER loot?

    Until they address the loot, no one wants to spend a second longer than they need to in any of these places. It's not like it gets more fun after you have run it 100 times.
    f
    Well, it's rather obvious how it's supposed to work:

    1. Run to mob
    2. Kill mob
    3. Repeat

    Now I frankly don't care how you choose to do any dungeon among your private group of friends. But when you queue publicly, don't be surprised if the group does the dungeon as it's actually supposed to be done, and for heaven's sake, don't criticize them for doing the dungeon the proper way even if it is the slow way.

    If you wanted a speed run, then queue with friends. If you queue with strangers, then don't complain when they do strange things.
    That is the brain dead way to run dungeons. I can speedrun a dungeon and kill all the necessary mobs along the way without slowing down at all. Killing mobs that are not along the way just because they are there is the same as stepping into every trap along the way just because it's there.

    To restate what has already been stated, if you want a speed run form your own party, queue with friends and/or guildies of the same mindset, otherwise quit yer whinning and put away your elitist mentality

  • taevannyataevannya Member Posts: 70 Arc User

    They thought it would increase the rate at which people would at least start FBI and MSP
    Pretty sure that was the main goal here

    Well, funny that... going to be a while before I can remotely go since it takes a while to unlock MSP (FBIs not AS bad). 12k+ and can't queue because I decided to take my time and enjoy every campaign and play it for the story as opposed to just grind them as fast as I can and as soon as they come out...
    NW-DS9N7XBWI : Tel'met Beth'en Segreduin
    NW-DRSTZIHXU : The Silver Hand (needs reviews, RP map)
  • asterotgasterotg Member Posts: 1,742 Arc User
    The Devs try to 'make' us run random and your answer to complains about random players attitude is, go premade.

    I am quite sure, that the same ppl who complain about elitist blalba players have and will complain about elitist blabla players, excluding them by running premade. Not every PuG player is an idiot. If you run PuG, you would insult yourself. BUT, I did plenty of PuG runs and I have seen and I see AFK players, low geared players, who complain about the fact, that you cant solo the boss, while they died 10 seconds into the fight etc.
    Chars: CW, DC, GF, GWF, HR and TR.
  • dafrca#4810 dafrca Member Posts: 469 Arc User

    On the maintenance stream, they stated, very clearly, that the expectation was of the higher level folks to slow down and help the new players run the leveling content.

    They say they want this but in truth I have never seen it, ever. The 70+ just either melt everything or worse run ahead and leave us less than 70's to try and slog through all the monsters they ignored. There is not socialization going on. The Devs are living in a fantasy world that does not exist when it comes to this.

  • dafrca#4810 dafrca Member Posts: 469 Arc User

    It is very clear that the Devs suggestion that by introducing ERQ, high level players would show some empathy and help the lower level players is just another ill thought through idea...

    That has been my experience so far. :/
  • dafrca#4810 dafrca Member Posts: 469 Arc User

    Pug qs are hell. The people in there dont pay attention to what they are doing, they ignore the mechanics the game tells them to use, they often will sit at the fire and expect and even demand in chat to be carried, and they almost always refuse to listen to explanations on how to do things. This is normal pug behavior, and the idea that pugs regularily do dungeons the proper way is to assinie for words.

    As a less then 70 level person I find your comment quite interesting. In all my runs so far I have never had a 70+ speed runner try and give me advice or offer insights into better ways to run my character. I have never asked to be carried. I have suggested in chat that if they just run by all the monsters and leave me all the monsters to deal with it will be a slow run as I can't solo the dungeon. But I have never asked for nor expected to receive the RAD or other treasure without trying my best to contribute to the group effort.

    This is also why I am sad to see the negative impact the RQ is having because the positive side the Devs expect is just not a reality of what I see in the game. When folks want to help newer players, they tend to turn to their guilds to do so not some random PUG group.

  • plasticbatplasticbat Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 11,152 Arc User


    This is also why I am sad to see the negative impact the RQ is having because the positive side the Devs expect is just not a reality of what I see in the game. When folks want to help newer players, they tend to turn to their guilds to do so not some random PUG group.

    We have told dev their expectation of the "positive" side would not happen many many times since the announcement of RQ. RQ is doing what we expected, predicted, warned, ...
    *** The game can read your mind. If you want it, you won't get it. If you don't expect to get it, you will. ***
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