Easier version of TONG ?

24

Comments

  • oldbaldyone
    oldbaldyone Member Posts: 1,840 Arc User
    I'd like an easier version just so that I have time to go in and actually watch the cutscenes. Every group is so impatient, I don't think I have had the chance to see the full cutscenes in eDemo, MSP, FBI or TONG. Not that I want to watch them everytime, but once would be nice :)

    Maybe they could make a solo version of these dungeons, and at each boss, a guy pops out and explains some of the mechanics :) The solo version wouldn't drop much and would be super easy...in roleplay terms, maybe its a "dream" version or an "illusion" that someone is taking you through.
  • bitt3rnightmar3
    bitt3rnightmar3 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 788 Arc User
    edited October 2017

    I'd like an easier version just so that I have time to go in and actually watch the cutscenes. Every group is so impatient, I don't think I have had the chance to see the full cutscenes in eDemo, MSP, FBI or TONG. Not that I want to watch them everytime, but once would be nice :)

    Maybe they could make a solo version of these dungeons, and at each boss, a guy pops out and explains some of the mechanics :) The solo version wouldn't drop much and would be super easy...in roleplay terms, maybe its a "dream" version or an "illusion" that someone is taking you through.

    These things can happen already.

    1. A guy that pops out and explains the mechanics could be party member or a friend of yours. Taking a minute or two to explain mechanics. Why do they need to put an NPC to do a players job?
    2. If you want to see cut scenes just have everyone agree in the beginning to watch all the cut scenes all the way through. Done.



    Relmyna - AC/DC Righteous + Haste| Nadine - CW MoF (working on it)|Buffy - GF SM Tact| Hrist - Justice Tankadin|Healadin (Wannabe Tank)| Lena -MI Sabo TR (Farmer) | Jeska - GWF SM Destroyer (Farmer) | Maggie - HR PF Trapper (Wannabe DPS)
    --
    I'll never retrace my steps.

    Some of my best friends are Imaginary.


  • rjc9000
    rjc9000 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 2,398 Arc User
    ravenskya said:

    This is the time of the keyboard commando - rather than taking the time to build a character, learn the dungeon, fail a million times in the try, they just ask for it to be easier then complain when there isn't anything to do

    Fixed that for you.

  • pjohnny1
    pjohnny1 Member Posts: 89 Arc User
    ravenskya said:

    This is the time of the internet warrior - rather than taking the time to build a character, learn the dungeon, fail a million times in the try, they just ask for it to be easier then complain when there isn't anything to do

    No its the time of the pay to win warrior . The time of play to win has passed . No more running a dungeon/raid 4 days a week to clear the first boss to gear up for the second. No more /roll or saving raid points to out bid 20 other people for the gear you want . No more gear is best not the enchants you put in or on them , and they were drops only . You can buy anything now either with cash or mark/raid currency. No effort is needed anymore , took most of the fun out of games for me . I can remember feeling like I won the lottery after winning a piece of gear in a zone that I ran for 6 months . To nostalgic for my own good .
  • niadan
    niadan Member Posts: 1,635 Arc User
    > @pitshade said:
    > > @bitt3rnightmar3 said:
    > > 2. If you want to see cut scenes just have everyone agree in the beginning to watch all the cut scenes all the way through. Done.
    >
    > I've seen games in the past that had a cutscene library where a player could rewatch viewed cinematics. That would probably not be a difficult addition?

    @nitocris83

    This would be great to add to maybe our lore section.
  • ravenskya
    ravenskya Member Posts: 1,891 Arc User
    @pjohnny1

    Yeah... I don't mind a game having the option to pay to get passed something/or transmutes, or fashion, or mounts that look better but have the same stats as the other stuff.

    But everything being locked behind $$ or RNG makes the people that spend money feel entitled. "I spent $$ so this should now be easy"

    The people that actually want to play the game are the ones that get hosed.

    Back to the point on ToNG - I'm still only 13.2K on my OP... we have been regularly 4 manning that dungeon now. It's not a hard dungeon, but you have to both know how to play your character, have a good build and be with other people that are the same way. You can't buy your way to knowing what powers to swap out at what fight.
    Founding Member of "Wrong Side of the Stronghold"
    Ravenskya - TR / Krisha Chaos - OP / Waffles - GF / Dex Domitor - HR
    Becky the trendy GWF - GWF / Too Toasty - SW / Falcor - DC / Morrigan - CW / Sir Didymus - OP

  • mebengalsfan#9264
    mebengalsfan#9264 Member Posts: 3,169 Arc User
    edited October 2017
    ravenskya said:

    @pjohnny1

    Yeah... I don't mind a game having the option to pay to get passed something/or transmutes, or fashion, or mounts that look better but have the same stats as the other stuff.

    But everything being locked behind $$ or RNG makes the people that spend money feel entitled. "I spent $$ so this should now be easy"

    The people that actually want to play the game are the ones that get hosed.

    Back to the point on ToNG - I'm still only 13.2K on my OP... we have been regularly 4 manning that dungeon now. It's not a hard dungeon, but you have to both know how to play your character, have a good build and be with other people that are the same way. You can't buy your way to knowing what powers to swap out at what fight.

    This game makes it clear as day when leveling RED means move out of the way. Yet, I see many player stay in the red and die. FBI, CN, eToS, eGWD, eLoL, etc... The game did provide instructions on game mechanics, yet players seem to think it is ok to ignore the mechanics.
  • ravenskya
    ravenskya Member Posts: 1,891 Arc User

    ravenskya said:

    @pjohnny1

    Yeah... I don't mind a game having the option to pay to get passed something/or transmutes, or fashion, or mounts that look better but have the same stats as the other stuff.

    But everything being locked behind $$ or RNG makes the people that spend money feel entitled. "I spent $$ so this should now be easy"

    The people that actually want to play the game are the ones that get hosed.

    Back to the point on ToNG - I'm still only 13.2K on my OP... we have been regularly 4 manning that dungeon now. It's not a hard dungeon, but you have to both know how to play your character, have a good build and be with other people that are the same way. You can't buy your way to knowing what powers to swap out at what fight.

    This game makes it clear as day when leveling RED means move out of the way. Yet, I see many player stay in the red and die. FBI, CN, eToS, eGWD, eLoL, etc... The game did provide instructions on game mechanics, yet players seem to think it is ok to ignore the mechanics.
    Yeah... this dungeon is a little more crazy on the red - and with the fire blowing in all directions at the second boss to where you legit can't see your teammates or what you are fighting... and the red is basically the notification that you are about to be hosed... the timing of the red under your feet and the attack hitting you is much much shorter in this dungeon. There is no hanging out in the red before you dodge. You see red and if you are stuck in an animation you are getting hit by whatever it is.
    Founding Member of "Wrong Side of the Stronghold"
    Ravenskya - TR / Krisha Chaos - OP / Waffles - GF / Dex Domitor - HR
    Becky the trendy GWF - GWF / Too Toasty - SW / Falcor - DC / Morrigan - CW / Sir Didymus - OP

  • adinosii
    adinosii Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 4,294 Arc User


    I'm against this for many reasons but mainly, for me, it comes down to the fact that I don't believe you should be rewarded the same seals for running a Baby Tong. It's no different than running baby spiders versus epic spiders. There's an easy version so you can experience the dungeon in a simpler form. Not so you can farm the seals for top end gear by not doing the hardest content in the game. I don't believe in participation trophies and I surely don't encourage rewarding someone the same items for doing something much simpler.

    I pretty much agree. The seals of the brave are basically intended for those who have IL 480 gear already and want to get the "best" gear in the game. If you are not yet at that point, then you should not be trying for the IL 500 gear yet. Take it one step at a time.

    An "easy mode" version of the dungeon would help people learn the mechanisms, but failing and dying a few times will do that too. Just wait intil you are ready for ToNG, and then start farming it.

    Hoping for improvements...
  • qexotic
    qexotic Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 840 Arc User
    pantha7 said:

    i have seen 12k+ players with primal gear...

    That doesn't indicate that those characters have run TONG lots of times themselves to earn the gear. It is much more likely that that primal gear will have been bought by higher geared characters who can complete/farm TONG for Seals of the Brave who buy it for their less fortunate alts.

    Now if you had said that you had seen 12k+ players with full sets of Huntsman gear, now that would be significant. Huntsman gear is bound to account but the drops are specific to the class completing the dungeon so, unless you have multiple characters with the same class, this gear can only realistically be obtained by the character wearing it having completed TONG 'in person'.

  • araneax
    araneax Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 639 Arc User
    pantha7 said:

    uhmm..sry...this went quite too far...we are not asking for an easier version Tong with trash rewards....
    we are asking for an easier version of it from which we could gather a few seals of the brave (less than the master one) and maybe a rare or epic quality rings with low item level in chest....

    I can tell you as a player who runs a lot of TONG. Cos i am needed as a support. Even my groups sometimes fail. It is part of the experience. From 7 hours to 5 hours to 3 hours to 30 min. Sometimes it is frustrating and sometimes it is not.
    I agree it needs better rewards.
    But scaling down the difficulty of it, since it is supposed to be the hardest dungeon in the current game, is premature.
    Maybe , eventually it will happen. Like it did with Tiamat.
    But right now it is a current mod. And probably it will not change.
    d7d81448-df6b-48cf-94a0-cf1ba87d861a_zpsish6zr2v.jpg

  • ravenskya
    ravenskya Member Posts: 1,891 Arc User
    araneax said:

    pantha7 said:

    uhmm..sry...this went quite too far...we are not asking for an easier version Tong with trash rewards....
    we are asking for an easier version of it from which we could gather a few seals of the brave (less than the master one) and maybe a rare or epic quality rings with low item level in chest....

    I can tell you as a player who runs a lot of TONG. Cos i am needed as a support. Even my groups sometimes fail. It is part of the experience. From 7 hours to 5 hours to 3 hours to 30 min. Sometimes it is frustrating and sometimes it is not.
    I agree it needs better rewards.
    But scaling down the difficulty of it, since it is supposed to be the hardest dungeon in the current game, is premature.
    Maybe , eventually it will happen. Like it did with Tiamat.
    But right now it is a current mod. And probably it will not change.
    After the nerf cloud of 12b clears they might need to make it easier... but until then we won't know how bad off we will all be. 1bil damage to do in Orcus - and if it's not done fast enough the temp HP on your curse bearer runs out kinda quick... so with less stats this dungeon might go from fun, kinda hard but manageable to an unwinnable nightmare.

    Right now I'm attempting to gear up my two main characters with primal before it hits so that if we suddenly can't complete any more, at least I'm geared lol.
    Founding Member of "Wrong Side of the Stronghold"
    Ravenskya - TR / Krisha Chaos - OP / Waffles - GF / Dex Domitor - HR
    Becky the trendy GWF - GWF / Too Toasty - SW / Falcor - DC / Morrigan - CW / Sir Didymus - OP

  • araneax
    araneax Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 639 Arc User
    ravenskya said:

    araneax said:

    pantha7 said:

    uhmm..sry...this went quite too far...we are not asking for an easier version Tong with trash rewards....
    we are asking for an easier version of it from which we could gather a few seals of the brave (less than the master one) and maybe a rare or epic quality rings with low item level in chest....

    I can tell you as a player who runs a lot of TONG. Cos i am needed as a support. Even my groups sometimes fail. It is part of the experience. From 7 hours to 5 hours to 3 hours to 30 min. Sometimes it is frustrating and sometimes it is not.
    I agree it needs better rewards.
    But scaling down the difficulty of it, since it is supposed to be the hardest dungeon in the current game, is premature.
    Maybe , eventually it will happen. Like it did with Tiamat.
    But right now it is a current mod. And probably it will not change.
    After the nerf cloud of 12b clears they might need to make it easier... but until then we won't know how bad off we will all be. 1bil damage to do in Orcus - and if it's not done fast enough the temp HP on your curse bearer runs out kinda quick... so with less stats this dungeon might go from fun, kinda hard but manageable to an unwinnable nightmare.

    Right now I'm attempting to gear up my two main characters with primal before it hits so that if we suddenly can't complete any more, at least I'm geared lol.
    i did that with just main. I am taking a little break from it... but i plan to continue tomorrow. At least my supports can have it before it hits us.
    d7d81448-df6b-48cf-94a0-cf1ba87d861a_zpsish6zr2v.jpg

  • mebengalsfan#9264
    mebengalsfan#9264 Member Posts: 3,169 Arc User
    araneax said:

    pantha7 said:

    uhmm..sry...this went quite too far...we are not asking for an easier version Tong with trash rewards....
    we are asking for an easier version of it from which we could gather a few seals of the brave (less than the master one) and maybe a rare or epic quality rings with low item level in chest....

    I can tell you as a player who runs a lot of TONG. Cos i am needed as a support. Even my groups sometimes fail. It is part of the experience. From 7 hours to 5 hours to 3 hours to 30 min. Sometimes it is frustrating and sometimes it is not.
    I agree it needs better rewards.
    But scaling down the difficulty of it, since it is supposed to be the hardest dungeon in the current game, is premature.
    Maybe , eventually it will happen. Like it did with Tiamat.
    But right now it is a current mod. And probably it will not change.
    I played another game where the devs released one of the their harder raids and than for those who enjoyed a challenge made it even hard by offering an elite version. The elite had higher IL adds and boss and as you went further along the enemies level continued to increase. That regular raid still had players a year later who have not beaten it and wanted to. I beat that raid day 1 of it dropping as an experienced player. I even tried the elite and got to the last boss where all players bailed because of the difficulty. That was the hardest content that game had in almost 2 years and it is still hard to this day.

    Now that I said that, let me tell you that having an easier version does not mean that it will be easier. Seen it plenty in other games where the regular content kept many players away where as those who wanted the challenge jumped at the chance to run the latest content.
  • mebengalsfan#9264
    mebengalsfan#9264 Member Posts: 3,169 Arc User
    ravenskya said:

    araneax said:

    pantha7 said:

    uhmm..sry...this went quite too far...we are not asking for an easier version Tong with trash rewards....
    we are asking for an easier version of it from which we could gather a few seals of the brave (less than the master one) and maybe a rare or epic quality rings with low item level in chest....

    I can tell you as a player who runs a lot of TONG. Cos i am needed as a support. Even my groups sometimes fail. It is part of the experience. From 7 hours to 5 hours to 3 hours to 30 min. Sometimes it is frustrating and sometimes it is not.
    I agree it needs better rewards.
    But scaling down the difficulty of it, since it is supposed to be the hardest dungeon in the current game, is premature.
    Maybe , eventually it will happen. Like it did with Tiamat.
    But right now it is a current mod. And probably it will not change.
    After the nerf cloud of 12b clears they might need to make it easier... but until then we won't know how bad off we will all be. 1bil damage to do in Orcus - and if it's not done fast enough the temp HP on your curse bearer runs out kinda quick... so with less stats this dungeon might go from fun, kinda hard but manageable to an unwinnable nightmare.

    Right now I'm attempting to gear up my two main characters with primal before it hits so that if we suddenly can't complete any more, at least I'm geared lol.
    The thing is you will need R14 enchantments, 2 DC, 1 CW/SW to get as close to the max debuff/buff cap, 1 strong DPS and the tank. Everyone will be running R14 everywhere and bam, almost like it is being run today.

    LOL....12b will probably see quite a few players leave. I mean quite a few. Considering all of the add cost to not even get to where players are at today. Sad really that the game has sunk to this level to generate revenue.
  • ravenskya
    ravenskya Member Posts: 1,891 Arc User
    Well right now I'm 13.5K - we went through ToNG with my OP on tank, 1 DC, 1 GWF and 1 TR with no problem. Sure it took us like 40 min but that was fine, there were no wipes and it was fun. So hopefully after the nerf of 12b - if we just add in a fifth person who brings either more dps or buffs to the table we should still be fine. At least that is what we are hoping.
    Founding Member of "Wrong Side of the Stronghold"
    Ravenskya - TR / Krisha Chaos - OP / Waffles - GF / Dex Domitor - HR
    Becky the trendy GWF - GWF / Too Toasty - SW / Falcor - DC / Morrigan - CW / Sir Didymus - OP

  • mebengalsfan#9264
    mebengalsfan#9264 Member Posts: 3,169 Arc User
    ravenskya said:

    Well right now I'm 13.5K - we went through ToNG with my OP on tank, 1 DC, 1 GWF and 1 TR with no problem. Sure it took us like 40 min but that was fine, there were no wipes and it was fun. So hopefully after the nerf of 12b - if we just add in a fifth person who brings either more dps or buffs to the table we should still be fine. At least that is what we are hoping.

    A templock, a MoF CW running Critical Conflag with Swath, a DO DC built as a DPS, etc....the main thing is the player just needs to be aware of the mechanics....
  • elmeister#2511
    elmeister#2511 Member Posts: 24 Arc User
    Is there a mechanic on withers? I always thought it's just a practice dummy with switched graphics. In 15 runs noticed taking any damage only on the few slower runs where some gfx interference flames appear. Even on my 1st run I was just told to go hit the tower to the max
  • elmeister#2511
    elmeister#2511 Member Posts: 24 Arc User
    > @dragonsbane3 said:
    > Can we please move out of the era of participation trophy's please. This is not World of Warcraft and we don't have looking for raid,.... Holding peoples hands and coddling then will not teach them how to play their perspective class correctly. If you don't know how to play your class/ correct builds, then you have no point being in there. On that note ToNG is not hard by any means of the word. It is being completed every day with 13k ilvl people. It is far less about gear and more about know how to execute mechanics and class synergy.
    >
    > Orcus is not a DPS check but a skill check for the person getting the balls. If they are good at avoiding all other dmg then even the worest dps teams will be able to kill it. If the team chooses to burn Wither's vs doing the actual mechanics, then that is the dps race. Once the chain stuns start going off on the avg group is when the <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> hits the fan. As far as Ras goes, its a simple execute basic mechanics and don't tunnel the boss and its a win. 1.) don't get "break armor' debuff 2.) above all else focus the souls 3.) don't be an idiot and stand in front of the boss.
    >
    >
    > I am a firm believer that people can play what ever build and skills they prefer when soloing. However when doing group content and the "hardest" endgame runs then they should be playing whichever build is best for that content. As well as knowing what skills to be running and why they should be using them. I am amazed every day at the amount of OPs and DC's that are clueless as to what they should be running in there. Maybe it's the elitist in me but if you are considering doing endgame content then you should be somewhat of a subject matter expert on your class, build and how you synergize with the group before you just casually stroll through the front door and start complaining at how difficult something is.

    Agree 100%, though personal experience is more with dps being lost. Though I did manage to encounter 2 dcs in one day who couldn't run eFF despite several pleas. But I also saw some real do-it-yourself guys complain when I announced free salvage when soloing t2 stuff on last boss that it's not 'free' if they need to join q group and sit 30 secs behind the wall before looting chests
  • ravenskya
    ravenskya Member Posts: 1,891 Arc User

    Is there a mechanic on withers? I always thought it's just a practice dummy with switched graphics. In 15 runs noticed taking any damage only on the few slower runs where some gfx interference flames appear. Even on my 1st run I was just told to go hit the tower to the max

    There is a mechanic - it's just pointless to do and turns the fight into a much more complicated/annoying fight than just whacking away at the snow globe.

    Sort of like Valindras - sure there are mechanics but if you just kill her it's way easier than trying to coordinate them.
    Founding Member of "Wrong Side of the Stronghold"
    Ravenskya - TR / Krisha Chaos - OP / Waffles - GF / Dex Domitor - HR
    Becky the trendy GWF - GWF / Too Toasty - SW / Falcor - DC / Morrigan - CW / Sir Didymus - OP

  • mebengalsfan#9264
    mebengalsfan#9264 Member Posts: 3,169 Arc User
    ravenskya said:

    Is there a mechanic on withers? I always thought it's just a practice dummy with switched graphics. In 15 runs noticed taking any damage only on the few slower runs where some gfx interference flames appear. Even on my 1st run I was just told to go hit the tower to the max

    There is a mechanic - it's just pointless to do and turns the fight into a much more complicated/annoying fight than just whacking away at the snow globe.

    Sort of like Valindras - sure there are mechanics but if you just kill her it's way easier than trying to coordinate them.
    You will have to do the mechanics probably with mod 12b...

    Right now on consoles players get 285% of their companion stats from R12 Bonding. After the update and after bringing the bonding up to R14 you will be getting the same as a player with R9 bonding today.

    To validate if you can still beat the boss without worrying about mechanics, take the normal group but everyone should run R9 bonding and see if it can be done.

  • bitt3rnightmar3
    bitt3rnightmar3 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 788 Arc User

    ravenskya said:

    Is there a mechanic on withers? I always thought it's just a practice dummy with switched graphics. In 15 runs noticed taking any damage only on the few slower runs where some gfx interference flames appear. Even on my 1st run I was just told to go hit the tower to the max

    There is a mechanic - it's just pointless to do and turns the fight into a much more complicated/annoying fight than just whacking away at the snow globe.

    Sort of like Valindras - sure there are mechanics but if you just kill her it's way easier than trying to coordinate them.
    You will have to do the mechanics probably with mod 12b...

    Right now on consoles players get 285% of their companion stats from R12 Bonding. After the update and after bringing the bonding up to R14 you will be getting the same as a player with R9 bonding today.

    To validate if you can still beat the boss without worrying about mechanics, take the normal group but everyone should run R9 bonding and see if it can be done.

    We still don't have to do mechanics on withers. Most of my friends only have r13 bondings now. Just nuke him from orbit :)
    Relmyna - AC/DC Righteous + Haste| Nadine - CW MoF (working on it)|Buffy - GF SM Tact| Hrist - Justice Tankadin|Healadin (Wannabe Tank)| Lena -MI Sabo TR (Farmer) | Jeska - GWF SM Destroyer (Farmer) | Maggie - HR PF Trapper (Wannabe DPS)
    --
    I'll never retrace my steps.

    Some of my best friends are Imaginary.


  • qexotic
    qexotic Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 840 Arc User

    ravenskya said:

    Is there a mechanic on withers? I always thought it's just a practice dummy with switched graphics. In 15 runs noticed taking any damage only on the few slower runs where some gfx interference flames appear. Even on my 1st run I was just told to go hit the tower to the max

    There is a mechanic - it's just pointless to do and turns the fight into a much more complicated/annoying fight than just whacking away at the snow globe.

    Sort of like Valindras - sure there are mechanics but if you just kill her it's way easier than trying to coordinate them.
    You will have to do the mechanics probably with mod 12b...

    Right now on consoles players get 285% of their companion stats from R12 Bonding. After the update and after bringing the bonding up to R14 you will be getting the same as a player with R9 bonding today.

    To validate if you can still beat the boss without worrying about mechanics, take the normal group but everyone should run R9 bonding and see if it can be done.

    We still don't have to do mechanics on withers. Most of my friends only have r13 bondings now. Just nuke him from orbit :)
    Interesting suggestion there. I may have to try it next time I get into TONG. I was in there last night with 1 DC team. We beat Orcus at the first attempt and fairly breezed through the mobs but we came a cropper at Whithers and eventually had to abandon the attempt. This was really strange since pre-Mod12B, Whithers had been the easiest boss to overcome. Maybe I should look into upgrading my Rank12 Bondings to 13 but in-game funds and resources don't make that an option right now.

  • adinosii
    adinosii Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 4,294 Arc User
    pantha7 said:

    Soooo....time is up...what do you vote...easier version of tong with lessened rewards plus seals than the normal ...?
    or nothing changes and players abandon neverwinter till cryptic gets bankrupted...lol

    I don't think anyone is abandoning NWO because ToNG is too hard - with a good group it is only slightly slower than prior to the bonding stone nerf, that's all. IF people are leaving it is because of the RQs or other bad decisions that are taking the fun out of the game.

    I am actually going to claim that the difficulty of ToNG is just right, A good, well-geared group can easily do it in 20-25 minutes, while an inexperienced or incompetent, under-geared group will spend an hour or two, in they manage to finish at all.

    That's fine - that's just how it should be. We need something that is suitable for "end-game" players, and no...there is no need whatsoever for an "easier" version.
    Hoping for improvements...