The "Two DC" problem and what to do about it.

2

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  • safespacecadet#3341
    safespacecadet#3341 Member Posts: 374 Arc User
    edited October 2017
    Btw, Bards have an ability to make a party immune to fear. Though there is also a cleric spell in tabletop D&D called Remove Fear.
    Post edited by safespacecadet#3341 on
  • trinity706#8838
    trinity706#8838 Member Posts: 643 Arc User
    One of the things about introducing changes is if you simply add to what is already there players will often continue to do as they had before, being that 2 DC groups is being seen as an issue simply improving other classes arguably won't curb that type of group composition though implementing dimisihing returns AND improving others classes will. If two DC's won't be as effective as 1 DC and another class then less groups would be comprised of it and essentially the "other" DC's will be available for another group.

    In our community we rarely have run 2 DC's, it can speed up a run though in our experiences the time shaved isn't enough to justify it as a permanent option.

    Different players have different definitions of "fun", to us we'd rather enjoy the content overall in spite of the completion time/reward vs speeding through it, not enjoying and not receiving a drop sought.

    BTW, the "badge system" doesn't necessarily determine "value". Players that "follow the crowd" tend to get more "agrees" than those that don't who often get "disagree"s.
    “There are changes that can be made that don’t require coding...” - TriNitY
    "No amount of coding will change human behavior" - TriNitY

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  • safespacecadet#3341
    safespacecadet#3341 Member Posts: 374 Arc User
    edited October 2017
    The major reason why you get flavors of the month or module in this game is that the Tank, Healer, DPS Trinity formation of parties has been embraced. Tank, Healer, DPS is pretty much all you can do in an mmorpg that is 90% combat. But there is no need for an mmorpg to be 90% combat. Classes in tabletop Dungeons & Dragons and all other pencil & paper RPG systems I know of have different non-combat and utility skills, abilities, powers, and spells. The major part of what makes these classes unique and distinct from each other are these very same non-combat skills. People would not be so obsessed with how much damage they're doing or taking if an mmorpg successfully implements classes with non-combat skills (in a fun and engaging way) into quests, lairs, dungeons, and raids. There would be no more need for fighters, clerics, and paladins to do less damage than rogues, rangers, and wizards. New classes such as bard, druid, barbarian, and monk would also be integrated into the game more easily. They would be wanted not because they can heal, tank, or do good damage, but because of their unique combat and non-combat skillsets that other classes do not possess.

    The Big Question is, does Neverwinter simply want to be the best action combat mmorpg, or does it want to be THE BEST MMORPG?
    Post edited by safespacecadet#3341 on
  • dragonsbane3
    dragonsbane3 Member Posts: 190 Arc User
    First there has always been and will always a "meta" doesn't matter if its 4 random support or 2 dc's or whatever you want to thrown in there. The peps with 20 lb brains will find the combo that will make dungeon runs the smoothest and most efficient way possible. The only way to break the 4 support meta atm and the 2 dc meta is to put a hard cap on buffs. When it is no longer beneficial to stack buffs/debuffs past a certain point then raw dmg will become king.

    Other options would be to design dungeons where CC is mandatory. Change class design where you are not able to do both AOE and ST dmg with the same build. So maybe groups would be forced to run 1 ST dps, 1 AOE dps and 1 CC.
    "The Sweet Ain't As Sweet Without The Sour!"
  • trinity706#8838
    trinity706#8838 Member Posts: 643 Arc User
    @safespacecadet Table top is arguably quite different from MMORPG. In TT the audience is smaller/isolated and progression is the focus/experience (for the most part?)(think of it as a single player game with multiple people being that what lies ahead comes with progression), in MMORPG there are thousands of players and the focus tends to be on end game and clearing content as fast as possible.

    Unfortuneately MMORPG players tend to focus on damage which often equals faster completion times and also not liking "larger" time investments ,a person can see this by the many "time/reward" arguments. As mentioned in another thread/ dungeons/content where the bosses/mechanics were "random" would encourage a "balanced"/different group composition. As long as the mechanics continue to remain static players will form groups that will clear it in the fastest times though introducing "random" mechanics will incline players think ahead.

    Different classes having different non-combat abilities along with random mechanics could very well offer different gamerplay experiences and help capitalize on those abilitites, by doing so the players that want to speed through content can do so and the players that want a more expansive/"D&D like" experience can as well.
    “There are changes that can be made that don’t require coding...” - TriNitY
    "No amount of coding will change human behavior" - TriNitY

    Ongoing Issue: Legitmate Players Banned for Botting (Console) and the Future for "Dedicated" Players
    Community Project: Neverwinter "RNG" Database

    Suggestions: Allow Guilds More Administrative Options \/\/ "Auto" Identify Items/"Auto-Load"/Refinement Sorting+ (Implemented) \/\/ Rearrange Character on character Select Screen \/\/ Character - "Legacy" Items
  • baronstragen
    baronstragen Member Posts: 197 Arc User
    edited October 2017
    I went through a CW being a DPS class to a support class to almost nothing. If a control wizard is supposed to provide control, how can he/she do so if everything is control resistant/immune? Maybe bring our control powers back and we might be a viable option, instead of nerfing us for the sake of PvP. I find it sad that a HR does a better job of control in endgame content, not knocking them but control is supposed to be our class. To generalize, the abilities of each class have been muted. I just used the CW as an example. It's kind of hard to break the current meta when the current class abilities have been severely curtailed.
    Varric the Cursed Dwarven cursed to be Tiefling CW
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  • niadan
    niadan Member Posts: 1,635 Arc User
    The 2 DC problem only exists when YOU are not running with two DCs lol.
  • tripsofthrymr
    tripsofthrymr Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,624 Community Moderator
    karvare said:

    Although I like the idea of having class relevant blocks like traps or enchanted doors, then you require groups to have a TR or CW or what not. It is the same effect, take when CN returned for example. The meta was to skip a tank and use a pet to tank with ranged dps and a heals.

    They don't have to be all-or-nothing, but can be things specific classes can do to shorten a run by an amount that makes it cool if the class is present (or that unlocks bonus treasure), but not so cool that people won't run without that class. You could also add a Scroll of the Hunter / the Rogue / etc. to the game that lets any class do the class-specific thing (but don't make the scrolls trivially easy to come by).

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  • safespacecadet#3341
    safespacecadet#3341 Member Posts: 374 Arc User
    edited October 2017

    @safespacecadet Table top is arguably quite different from MMORPG. In TT the audience is smaller/isolated and progression is the focus/experience (for the most part?)(think of it as a single player game with multiple people being that what lies ahead comes with progression), in MMORPG there are thousands of players and the focus tends to be on end game and clearing content as fast as possible.

    Unfortuneately MMORPG players tend to focus on damage which often equals faster completion times and also not liking "larger" time investments ,a person can see this by the many "time/reward" arguments. As mentioned in another thread/ dungeons/content where the bosses/mechanics were "random" would encourage a "balanced"/different group composition. As long as the mechanics continue to remain static players will form groups that will clear it in the fastest times though introducing "random" mechanics will incline players think ahead.

    Different classes having different non-combat abilities along with random mechanics could very well offer different gamerplay experiences and help capitalize on those abilitites, by doing so the players that want to speed through content can do so and the players that want a more expansive/"D&D like" experience can as well.

    Tabletop rpgs are only so different from mmorpgs because of the way most mmorpgs have been designed since Everquest (1999), Everequest 2 (2004), and World of Warcraft (2004). Progression is not so much the focus in tabletop rpgs unless that is the focus determined by the GM/DM and the players. After all, characters can die permanently in tabletop rpgs. The overall experience and enjoyment gained from playing each session is the focus for many players. Or at least, that's how it once was. Progression is certainly the focus in 90%+ of mmorpgs. And in 90%+ of mmorpgs, the focus of progression is the progression of personal power and wealth. But power and wealth are only two areas that people are capable of progressing in. Also, combat is the principal way to progress both of these things in 90%+ of mmorpgs. However, combat is just one way people can gain power and wealth. There are many, many other ways. We do have crafting, exploring, and trading (buying/selling) in most mmorpgs, but there are still other ways to gain power and wealth than just those.

    I do think part of what is holding back innovation in mmorpgs is the idea that every player wants or needs to be an adventurer or a hero of some kind. That works fine with tabletop rpgs, because the GM/DM can make his group the focus of a series of adventures or one grand epic adventure/campaign. The GM/DM can tailor each adventure to make the game feel personal for all the participating players. Eventually, the players can actually become great heroes who have a chance at saving the world, if that is the kind of scenario the GM/DM and the players want to play. But players can also play evil, neutral, or indifferent characters who are only out for themselves or not really interested in saving the world. Their characters can even become villains if they like. Anything is possible in a tabletop rpg. Also, monsters, enemies or npcs they kill stay dead unless they are resurrected, reanimated, reincarnated, or raised as undead creatures or beings.

    But to me, the most important and interesting element of a tabletop rpg is that the players can effect and even change game world by their word, actions, and choices. The major limitation of tabletop rpgs compared to mmorpgs is that the players of one particular in any given game world or system will rarely, if ever, interact with other players in the same game world or system. A multi-player co-op game faces the same limitation.

    While everything that works in a tabletop rpg will not necessarily work the same way in an mmorpg, that doesn't mean that everything can't work in a similar way.

    Me, I've saved so many imaginary worlds from the brink of destruction that I've lost count. That doesn't really interest me anymore. Especially if being a special chosen hero who is destined to save the world means that I'll be forced to play the same repetitive, linear type of game over and over. I'd much rather choose what kind of person my character and what kind of path my character will follow through a game world. Doesn't mean that a character a play might not end up saving another world at some point, but I don't want that to be the only option available to my character. I would be much more interested in a game world that allowed me to have the choice of playing a hero or a villain or anything in-between.

    But for such a game world to be possible, we would have to do away with the idea that every player needs to be an adventurer. Players could just as easily choose to be food producers, builders, craftsmen, merchants, clergymen, soldiers, or criminals, etc. in a game world that allowed for different paths and methods of progression. What if that game was realm vs realm, and player choices actually determined the large majority of the events that took place in that game world? What if the players themselves were the main driving force behind content in an mmorpg? Now, of course, that is beyond the scope of Neverwinter. I wrote all that as a way of explaining that many more things are possible in mmorpgs than what we are accustomed to seeing in the large majority of them.



  • safespacecadet#3341
    safespacecadet#3341 Member Posts: 374 Arc User

    karvare said:

    Although I like the idea of having class relevant blocks like traps or enchanted doors, then you require groups to have a TR or CW or what not. It is the same effect, take when CN returned for example. The meta was to skip a tank and use a pet to tank with ranged dps and a heals.

    They don't have to be all-or-nothing, but can be things specific classes can do to shorten a run by an amount that makes it cool if the class is present (or that unlocks bonus treasure), but not so cool that people won't run without that class. You could also add a Scroll of the Hunter / the Rogue / etc. to the game that lets any class do the class-specific thing (but don't make the scrolls trivially easy to come by).

    Or you could have rare items that give a character a lower chance to do something another class can do, like a ring that gives a low chance to pick locks. Though if a rogue had that ring, it would increase his or her chance to pick locks. Here's an example of such a ring that can actually be found in tabletop D&D - Lockpicking
    This ring is made up of tiny prongs, wires, and other small devices that spring to life on command. The ring grants a +5 competence bonus on Open Lock checks and can cast knock three times a day, as the spell from a 12th-level caster.
  • armadeonx
    armadeonx Member Posts: 4,952 Arc User
    In BG you could use lockpicks (purchasable from a vendor) and you'd get a chance roll based on your dexterity.
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  • safespacecadet#3341
    safespacecadet#3341 Member Posts: 374 Arc User
    armadeonx said:

    In BG you could use lockpicks (purchasable from a vendor) and you'd get a chance roll based on your dexterity.

    Without being a rogue and without having the Open Locks skill? Sure, anyone can try to pick a lock with lockpicks, but it's a skill that requires some practice in order to it well and in a short amount of time.
  • araneax
    araneax Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 639 Arc User

    armadeonx said:

    In BG you could use lockpicks (purchasable from a vendor) and you'd get a chance roll based on your dexterity.

    Without being a rogue and without having the Open Locks skill? Sure, anyone can try to pick a lock with lockpicks, but it's a skill that requires some practice in order to it well and in a short amount of time.
    Caution should be used, as the lockpick will break if too much pressure is applied while it is in the wrong position.

    Wait ... wrong game... XD
    d7d81448-df6b-48cf-94a0-cf1ba87d861a_zpsish6zr2v.jpg

  • gabrieldourden
    gabrieldourden Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,212 Arc User
    I think that the real problem with the 2 DC party is that it is at the same time the tankiest and the fastest. This should never ever be in a game. There should be a trade-off between speed and safety. Do you want to run faster? Take the risk of wiping! Do you want to run safe? Expect to take more time.
    DCs offer the best of both worlds.

    The current meta with OP/GF/2DC/DPS is definitely wrong. It offers extreme resiliency and the highest clearing speed at the same time.... If I go in with tank, 3 DPS and healer I take more risk but I should be faster if I can pull it off.
    There are simply too many damage buffs/debuffs in this game and, even with the debuff cap, things are still out of hand. Not to mention recovery buffs that are basically more DPS, with cooldowns that dramatically drop...
    Le-Shan: HR level 80 (main)
    Born of Black Wind: SW Level 80
  • gabrieldourden
    gabrieldourden Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,212 Arc User
    > @araneax said:
    > In BG you could use lockpicks (purchasable from a vendor) and you'd get a chance roll based on your dexterity.
    >
    > Without being a rogue and without having the Open Locks skill? Sure, anyone can try to pick a lock with lockpicks, but it's a skill that requires some practice in order to it well and in a short amount of time.
    >
    >
    > Caution should be used, as the lockpick will break if too much pressure is applied while it is in the wrong position.
    >
    >
    > Wait ... wrong game... XD

    Do you mean the game where you get to the point where you can SIT on your lockpick and still open the door? I always went the lockpick/stealth/one handed weapons route there ;)
    Le-Shan: HR level 80 (main)
    Born of Black Wind: SW Level 80
  • araneax
    araneax Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 639 Arc User
    edited October 2017


    Do you mean the game where you get to the point where you can SIT on your lockpick and still open the door? I always went the lockpick/stealth/one handed weapons route there ;)


    d7d81448-df6b-48cf-94a0-cf1ba87d861a_zpsish6zr2v.jpg

  • armadeonx
    armadeonx Member Posts: 4,952 Arc User
    no :wink:
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  • mebengalsfan#9264
    mebengalsfan#9264 Member Posts: 3,169 Arc User
    edited October 2017
    Since you are all PC players, if you want games that have more than Tank, Healer, DPS go play the single player RPG games like BG, Divinity Original Sin 1 and 2, Pillars of Eternity, Torment, etc...there are many games out there that give you more than what we see here in this game.

    Neverwinter Online is a ACTION RPG, I mean that tout that on the main page. This means it will be Tank, Healer and DPS focus, mostly on the DPS side, well more towards damage.

    The issue with this game is that there is a fourth option that is not a DPS, tank or healer and that is a Controller and according to the website the following classes are controllers: DCs, GF, CWs, etc... but rarely does anything need to be controlled. That is an option that is built within the game. There are ability scores, feats, artifacts, and companion bonuses that raise the ability to control but the community as a whole does not see the utility of a control build and thus it is rarely used.

    The devs probably see the lack of players running controller builds since the community is all about damage, damage, damage and more damage.

    I go pug CN as a GF. I got sent a nasty tell by a GWF that I did not produce 25% of his damage on my GF. I was setup as a tank with high defense but my power and crit stats were so much lower that I rarely hit hard enough to keep up with an equally geared GWF. Yet I am suppose to do X% of damage compared to him. I mean, not happening there buddy.

    Also, please watch what you ask the devs to do. Most devs tend to hear ABC and you maybe saying XYZ and what the can do is LMNOP....just a word of warning as you all write what you want from the devs.

    For me, I would like to see a full revamp of all classes, companions, enchantments, stats, content, etc. Rebalance everything

  • preechr#2215
    preechr#2215 Member Posts: 488 Arc User
    The problem with control is that all Bosses and many regular mobs are immune to control, so its not that players are deciding to not utilize control, its that the game makes doing so a bad choice
  • grimelfhero
    grimelfhero Member Posts: 29 Arc User
    edited March 2018
    .
    Post edited by grimelfhero on
  • grimelfhero
    grimelfhero Member Posts: 29 Arc User
    edited March 2018
    ,
    Post edited by grimelfhero on
  • preechr#2215
    preechr#2215 Member Posts: 488 Arc User
    With this false "meta" we don't really have DPS classes anymore
    We have buff receivers

    If a AC/DC buffs 3 DPS classes for as much power as they normally has, that's a pretty impressive boost to their damage
    If that DC buffs their bonding companions for that much power and then they receive it back from companion's gift multiplied by 3, well now that's just unrealistic and overpowered, though it doesn't necessarily follow that 1 overbuffed DPS is better then 3 overbuffed DPSers

    With the "meta," when the AC/DC overbuffs the one DPS, she's also overbuffing the other cleric, the OP and the GF, which in turn are also buffing everyone else for massively increased amounts of, well, everything... which you couldn't get if you were just overbuffing the power on 3 DPSers (unless, of course, they were more focused on what they could bring for the team and less on personal damage)

    There is no 2 DC Problem... if there is a problem at all, its much larger than something than can be blamed on DCs, and DCs should not bear the brunt of whatever gets done to fix this

    In fact, instead of relying on devs to change the way ANY classes work or work together, maybe the DPS people that feel left out of end game content should start by figuring out what they could bring to a party so they might compete with that second tank and one of the DCs
  • araneax
    araneax Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 639 Arc User
    edited October 2017

    With this false "meta" we don't really have DPS classes anymore
    We have buff receivers

    If a AC/DC buffs 3 DPS classes for as much power as they normally has, that's a pretty impressive boost to their damage
    If that DC buffs their bonding companions for that much power and then they receive it back from companion's gift multiplied by 3, well now that's just unrealistic and overpowered, though it doesn't necessarily follow that 1 overbuffed DPS is better then 3 overbuffed DPSers

    With the "meta," when the AC/DC overbuffs the one DPS, she's also overbuffing the other cleric, the OP and the GF, which in turn are also buffing everyone else for massively increased amounts of, well, everything... which you couldn't get if you were just overbuffing the power on 3 DPSers (unless, of course, they were more focused on what they could bring for the team and less on personal damage)

    There is no 2 DC Problem... if there is a problem at all, its much larger than something than can be blamed on DCs, and DCs should not bear the brunt of whatever gets done to fix this

    In fact, instead of relying on devs to change the way ANY classes work or work together, maybe the DPS people that feel left out of end game content should start by figuring out what they could bring to a party so they might compete with that second tank and one of the DCs

    they could make more DC's..... XD
    Post edited by araneax on
    d7d81448-df6b-48cf-94a0-cf1ba87d861a_zpsish6zr2v.jpg

  • trinity706#8838
    trinity706#8838 Member Posts: 643 Arc User
    @safespacecadet#3341 this one has you in mind especially since you are one of the very few leaning toward a more D&D like experience :)

    Part of the "issue" of class balance is how stats like power effect all classes pretty much the same and classes don't receive penalties from stacking stats "outside" of their class. Currently tank classes like Paladins and Guardian fighters can produce more DPS than actual DPS classes. If power didn't increase damage as much for non-DPS classes it could help with balancing the game (as far a dungeon group composition).

    For example:
    Defensive stats could provide a bit more for tank classes.
    Offensive stats could provide a bit more damage for DPS classes and or less damage for non-DPS classes.

    With the current system if a tank class can produce more DPS than an actual DPS class as well as be able to provide buffs and take more damage there's little reason to take a DPS instead.

    Maybe outside of dungeons non-DPS classes could go into something like "damage mode" where offensive stats produce damage as it does now (and defensive stats take a penalty) so they can quest, etc. and when they enter a dungeon non-DPS classes receive a DPS penalty from offensive stats and tank classes get a bonus from defensive stats.

    Outside Dungeon
    --- Non-DPS class: DPS bonus from offensive stats, defensive stat penalty.

    Inside Dungeons
    --- Non-DPS class: DPS penalty from offensive stats.
    --- Tank classes: bonus from defensive stats.

    Even in D&D there are things like class penalties/bonus and proficiency bonus, Neverwinter could work similarly (non-DPS classes being less proficient in dealing damage meaning less DPS from offensive stat, etc.).

    2 DC's being present in a dungeon would also have to produce more diminishing returns as well so not to circumvent penalties :( LoL
    “There are changes that can be made that don’t require coding...” - TriNitY
    "No amount of coding will change human behavior" - TriNitY

    Ongoing Issue: Legitmate Players Banned for Botting (Console) and the Future for "Dedicated" Players
    Community Project: Neverwinter "RNG" Database

    Suggestions: Allow Guilds More Administrative Options \/\/ "Auto" Identify Items/"Auto-Load"/Refinement Sorting+ (Implemented) \/\/ Rearrange Character on character Select Screen \/\/ Character - "Legacy" Items
  • preechr#2215
    preechr#2215 Member Posts: 488 Arc User
    Swap recovery on enchants with life-steal, making recovery a defensive stat and life-steal offensive