Dungeon Statistics:

thefabricant
thefabricant Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 5,248 Arc User
edited October 2017 in Player Feedback (PC)
First off, I would like to make this clear:

1) I do not judge players by ilvl.
2) I do not judge players by how well they perform in dungeons.
3) I do not use the current system to judge other players and I would not use this system either.

With that being said however, I also acknowledge that there are players who are judging others and I am kind of sick of ilvl being used as the measure that is used for judging, as it is the WORST way of judging others currently available in NW. Due to this, I would like to see ilvl be removed from NW queue requirements (yes, you do not require a specific ilvl to enter a dungeon), the total item level stat removed and instead add a new tab to the character sheet which is view able by anyone inspecting you called, "Dungeon Statistics." Item level will still exist on each piece of gear, to indicate which pieces of gear have more stats, but, a "total item level" stat will no longer exist since it serves no purpose.

In this tab, every dungeon will be listed with a dropdown menu, which, when clicked on, will display the following information about that character and account:

1) Fastest completion of dungeon xyz.
2) Average completion time of dungeon xyz.
3) Slowest completion of dungeon xyz.
4) Total number of completions of dungeon xyz.
5) Number of times dungeon xyz has been entered.
6) Number of times player has been kicked from dungeon xyz.
7) Number of times player has abandoned dungeon xyz.

This will be displayed in the form Character Best: x (Account best: Y), so that players can clearly see, when inspecting another character simply by looking at their statistics panel, how much experience the other player has on both that character and their accounts.

Then, for dungeon queue requirements, I would have char and account unlock requirements and I would introduce a 3rd queue type, unranked queue. The purpose of adding the unranked queue is so that if you want to just run something for fun, without it showing on your statistics, you can do so. This has the advantage that players who do stuff for fun can do so without it negatively impacting their statistics, whilst also meaning that if you choose to queue under this option, it won't count for unlock requirements or count towards what lfg will use to judge you. The account unlock, is a requirement you need to do once per account and the char unlock you will have to do on every character.

T1 dungeons: Be level 70.

T2 dungeons account unlock requirement: Have completed all T1 dungeons at least once each and have a total number of T1 completions greater than 10.
T2 dungeons Char unlock requirement: Complete at least 1 T1 dungeon under 15 minutes.

T3 dungeons account unlock requirement: Have completed all T2 dungeons at least 3 times each and have a total number of T2 completions greater than 20.
T3 dungeons char unlock requirement: Have completed Castle Never under 15 minutes.

Tong account unlock requirement: Complete both T3 dungeons at least once and have a total number of completions of both greater than 10.
Tong char unlock requirement: Complete FBI under 25 minutes and complete SP under 35 minutes.

While there are still flaws in the proposed system, it is still a good deal better than the current system. I am tired of seeing people inflating their item level to some arbitrarily high number, or players being unfairly judged by their ilvl. True, I am sure something similar would occur in the system I propose, but at the very least, you can maybe, to some extent, tell what kind of player someone is from the number of times they have abandoned a group or being kicked. Also, with the removal of the ilvl stat, maybe people will put less emphasis on it overall and start working on improving their performance and not some arbitrary number.
Post edited by thefabricant on
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Comments

  • darthtzarr
    darthtzarr Member Posts: 1,003 Arc User
    I'm not sure quite all of that information would be easily displayed even on a second character tab (number of times kicked from a specific dungeon for example), but it is a huge step up from item level. Item level as currently invented it like trying to rate for sale by owner cars by only their price tag. It simply doesn't work at all.

    Signature [WIP] - tyvm John

  • rjc9000
    rjc9000 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 2,398 Arc User


    T1 dungeons: Be level 70.

    T2 dungeons account unlock requirement: Have completed all T1 dungeons at least once each and have a total number of T1 completions greater than 10.
    T2 dungeons Char unlock requirement: Complete at least 1 T1 dungeon under 15 minutes.

    T3 dungeons account unlock requirement: Have completed all T2 dungeons at least 3 times each and have a total number of T2 completions greater than 20.
    T3 dungeons char unlock requirement: Have completed Castle Never under 15 minutes.

    Tong account unlock requirement: Complete both T3 dungeons at least once and have a total number of completions of both greater than 10.
    Tong char unlock requirement: Complete FBI under 25 minutes and complete SP under 35 minutes.

    Inb4 "LF1M (x) for (insert hard dungeon here), need to have 1cc'd/no death/no DC'd (insert dungeons here)"

    Also, Sharp, you might want to find your flak vest, because I expect some explosive feedback here.

    (If you have GTA taxi drivers where you live, I wouldn't put it past you to own a flak vest...)

  • tripsofthrymr
    tripsofthrymr Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,624 Community Moderator
    I agree that item level is a rather indirect indicator of how well a character will perform. You can have high item level toons that have a bad build or don't understand their class/role in a party, and you can have a highly experienced player on a new toon that can perform significantly better than the average bear.

    The trouble I see with your approach is that the unlocks happen when even someone gets carried through the relevant content, not when they have proven the ability to perform well. It's pretty hard to random queue for a T1 or T2 and not get a party that's going to blow the content away, more so if skilled guildies are helping.

    I have a principal issue with the time requirement. While fast runs are an optimization that many players strive for (especially given the nature of Neverwinter's RNG), a group of players whose preferred play style is to take time in dungeons and experience them shouldn't be forced into fast runs.

    I don't see the "dungeon stats" being actually used much. Players without a community will random queue, players in a community will be judged by factors like how friendly they are, and by their behavior/ability in the first few runs in that community.

    The fundamental issue I see is that ego is tied to one or more imprecise stats (paingiver chart, item level). Some people will judge based on the stat-du-jour, and some people will do what it takes to prove their... stat... is large. Replacing stats with some measure of actual in-game performance is a laudable goal. I'm not sure your proposal is workable in its current form. I don't have a better suggestion but will give it thought.
    Caritas Guild Founder (Greycloak Alliance)

    Sci-fi author: The Gods We Make, The Gods We Seek, and Ji-min
  • spideymt
    spideymt Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 710 Arc User



    T2 dungeons Char unlock requirement: Complete at least 1 T1 dungeon under 15 minutes.


    T3 dungeons char unlock requirement: Have completed Castle Never under 15 minutes.


    Tong char unlock requirement: Complete FBI under 25 minutes and complete SP under 35 minutes.

    I disagree with time requirements. I agree with the rest of your points, but time for beating a dungoen as a requirement will be a bad idea. I will never do any dungeon fast again. I hate this.

  • thefabricant
    thefabricant Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 5,248 Arc User
    edited October 2017
    micky1p00 said:

    And why we need to judge others to begin with ?

    I don't think this will change anything, especially in human mentality. Those that want to run by specific criteria will run by specific criteria. If it's uber fast times, and god forbid there will be a wipe. Others prefer friends in runs..

    I only advice to judge people by the criteria of whom they looking for, and with whom they run.

    @micky1p00 I agree, why judge others by this to begin with. I also know however that there are some people who will always judge others and I would rather they judged people by a metric that has some bearing, rather than a metric that has absolutely none. I personally, would continue to random queue when I want to and play with whatever friends I like, since this system would have as little meaning to me as the current one.

    I agree that item level is a rather indirect indicator of how well a character will perform. You can have high item level toons that have a bad build or don't understand their class/role in a party, and you can have a highly experienced player on a new toon that can perform significantly better than the average bear.

    The trouble I see with your approach is that the unlocks happen when even someone gets carried through the relevant content, not when they have proven the ability to perform well. It's pretty hard to random queue for a T1 or T2 and not get a party that's going to blow the content away, more so if skilled guildies are helping.

    I have a principal issue with the time requirement. While fast runs are an optimization that many players strive for (especially given the nature of Neverwinter's RNG), a group of players whose preferred play style is to take time in dungeons and experience them shouldn't be forced into fast runs.

    I don't see the "dungeon stats" being actually used much. Players without a community will random queue, players in a community will be judged by factors like how friendly they are, and by their behavior/ability in the first few runs in that community.

    The fundamental issue I see is that ego is tied to one or more imprecise stats (paingiver chart, item level). Some people will judge based on the stat-du-jour, and some people will do what it takes to prove their... stat... is large. Replacing stats with some measure of actual in-game performance is a laudable goal. I'm not sure your proposal is workable in its current form. I don't have a better suggestion but will give it thought.

    @tripsofthrymr whilst that may be true, you need to keep in mind that, exactly as you said, those are the unlock requirements, not the requirements groups in channels and lfg will use. If someone has been carried to unlock stuff, it means 1 of 3 things:

    1) They have friends who don't mind carrying them.
    2) They random queued and got lucky.
    3) They got really lucky and found a benevolent person somewhere who they don't know.

    If the first is true, then they have people who don't mind running with them despite lacking gear already and as a result it doesn't matter. If the 2nd or 3rd is true, it means they have gotten lucky. Either way, you could expect lfg to ask for things like, "20+ tong completions and under 1h average" or something like that for example, which means that they wouldn't qualify for premade groups anyhow. Furthermore, there is a very good incentive to not queue for something if you cannot do it without being carried and that is because if you fail, it would show up on those statistics and make it even harder for you to get a random group.

    Furthermore, the groups of players who like to take their time, screenshot stuff, etc, are normally groups of friends, who are going to run stuff with each other frequently and probably won't be too badly influenced by this system since they have their closed group of friends they run with anyhow.

    More importantly though, my system means that players have to have run previous stuff in order to progress, they need to, at the very least, see how the difficulty adjusts as they go through the different tiers of content.

    But if this happens, people will no longer want to help others cause their average will go down :confused:

    And everybody would want to run only with the best they know of to increase their times...

    And if you have to pee in the middle of the run, or somebody's at the door, or get a phone call, goodluck continuing the run.

    I disagree @frozenfirevr, I would still be willing to help people and I feel anyone who actually doesn't mind helping someone else, won't let something like this get in their way.
    spideymt said:



    T2 dungeons Char unlock requirement: Complete at least 1 T1 dungeon under 15 minutes.


    T3 dungeons char unlock requirement: Have completed Castle Never under 15 minutes.


    Tong char unlock requirement: Complete FBI under 25 minutes and complete SP under 35 minutes.

    I disagree with time requirements. I agree with the rest of your points, but time for beating a dungoen as a requirement will be a bad idea. I will never do any dungeon fast again. I hate this.
    @spideymt I know the system I am proposing is flawed and not ideal, but I also know it is a better system then the 1 that currently exists. If you have a better proposal though, I am all ears.
    Post edited by thefabricant on
  • benyr
    benyr Member Posts: 233 Arc User
    Couldn't disagree with this more. As a well established (i know you hate reverting to the terminology) but +16k il OP in a medium level guild i spend a lot of my time helping guild members run dungeons that would ordinarily be tough for them as theyre either under geared or inexperienced, or im stepping in to help when i pick up a call for assistance from a stuck group on chat. On your measures this would mean that my run times would always look pretty slow and despite my best efforts id have a higher than average abandon rate either because the group just isnt strong enough, or a dungeon is literally taking hours and a real life event interupts.
    If your rational was introdced id be faced with a choice of abandoning my guild mates or having a nightmare getting accepted into any of the content i run for myself.
    Additionally, and i take on board your point that you dont want to judge but others do, i really hate this idea of people only wanting to run where theyre guatanteed a quick easy sucess, its a game for crying out loud if you fail you fail no biggy.
    I just think people should hold to their own moral values. For example i use the chat channels dedicated to high geared players as without being in a top guild its often the only way i can get into the latest content. However i refuse to join groups formed in these chats for t1 or t2 dungeons as i believe my time is better spent running those dungeons with people who actually need my help, rather than pointless melt everything in seconds farming runs.
    My fear for your proposals is that you would just create a chasm between the top players and anyone newer to the game,
    How would a player gain experience and rack up a decent number of successful quick runs if theyre excluded from running with experienced players afraid of damaging their own stats. Also the speed requirement to progress you suggest, such as 15 min for CN is a joke and will only perpetuate the current problem we have with people only wanting to run in certain group compesitions, with various classes being excluded. Additionaly does it really matter how fast you run CN? With your roleplaying hat on your toon either enetered the dungeon and survived or they didnt.
  • frozenfirevr
    frozenfirevr Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,475 Community Moderator
    edited October 2017

    But if this happens, people will no longer want to help others cause their average will go down :confused:

    And everybody would want to run only with the best they know of to increase their times...

    And if you have to pee in the middle of the run, or somebody's at the door, or get a phone call, goodluck continuing the run.

    I disagree @frozenfirevr, I would still be willing to help people and I feel anyone who actually doesn't mind helping someone else, won't let something like this get in their way.
    But most people aren't that nice. Right now helping doesn't hurt you in anyway, but if it does have an impact on your sheet, most people feel different, even start evaluating whether that person is worth it. And people asking for help would have to feel bad in a way too.

    Also, while I like the idea of moving away from IL, this system just might make the entire idea of dungeons a race and take away all the leisure from it, I don't think there's much of that even now, but some people do hang our with friends in there once in a while, explore stuff, stare at portraits or whatever and cool off. It might work fine in a perfect system but I don't think we're there yet.
    FrozenFire
  • thefabricant
    thefabricant Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 5,248 Arc User
    edited October 2017
    benyr said:

    Couldn't disagree with this more. As a well established (i know you hate reverting to the terminology) but +16k il OP in a medium level guild i spend a lot of my time helping guild members run dungeons that would ordinarily be tough for them as theyre either under geared or inexperienced, or im stepping in to help when i pick up a call for assistance from a stuck group on chat. On your measures this would mean that my run times would always look pretty slow and despite my best efforts id have a higher than average abandon rate either because the group just isnt strong enough, or a dungeon is literally taking hours and a real life event interupts.

    If your rational was introdced id be faced with a choice of abandoning my guild mates or having a nightmare getting accepted into any of the content i run for myself.

    Additionally, and i take on board your point that you dont want to judge but others do, i really hate this idea of people only wanting to run where theyre guatanteed a quick easy sucess, its a game for crying out loud if you fail you fail no biggy.

    I just think people should hold to their own moral values. For example i use the chat channels dedicated to high geared players as without being in a top guild its often the only way i can get into the latest content. However i refuse to join groups formed in these chats for t1 or t2 dungeons as i believe my time is better spent running those dungeons with people who actually need my help, rather than pointless melt everything in seconds farming runs.

    My fear for your proposals is that you would just create a chasm between the top players and anyone newer to the game,

    How would a player gain experience and rack up a decent number of successful quick runs if theyre excluded from running with experienced players afraid of damaging their own stats. Also the speed requirement to progress you suggest, such as 15 min for CN is a joke and will only perpetuate the current problem we have with people only wanting to run in certain group compesitions, with various classes being excluded. Additionaly does it really matter how fast you run CN? With your roleplaying hat on your toon either enetered the dungeon and survived or they didnt.

    @benyr my requirements here are based around the fact that a group that can beat CN in 15 minutes can definitely beat FBI and the same is true for every requirement except the requirement for tong. Furthermore, a BiS player can literally solo all the T1s under 15 mins and some of the T2s under 15 minutes as well, provided they do not stuff up. There is nothing stopping you from carrying players through either of those. What does irritate me a little is those who rather private queue solo for T1s and T2s then random queue and help people out, but w/e. As far as a chasm existing between high geared players and new players. Well, that already exists. An easy example is tomb. My toons are ~15k ilvl, most of the people I play with are ~15k ilvl, people ask for over 16k ilvl for toom. If I had no friends, I would not be able to get into tomb, since my toons are not a high enough ilvl for them and yet I am capable of completing tomb in an efficient manner.

    Here is the thing, if players are going to judge me, I would rather be judged by something that has some meaning, rather than something that has no meaning at all. Yes, this means you have to choose whether to play efficiently and as a result of this have a good record so to speak, or whether to run stuff for fun. I put my faith in humanity though that those who want to run stuff for fun will choose that over their record and at the end of the day, I am fine with the idea that someone got into a dungeon since they had a better record than I have but not fine with the idea that they got into a dungeon because they had a better item level than I do.

    At the end of the day, I feel like your issue with the idea is, it forces you to make a choice that actually has meaning and I would rather that the system in place has some meaning and that forces you to make a difficult choice, rather than the current one where anyone with a big wallet can pay their way to 17k and can then queue for everything. I want a system that has meaning, rather than 1 that is meaningless.

    But if this happens, people will no longer want to help others cause their average will go down :confused:

    And everybody would want to run only with the best they know of to increase their times...

    And if you have to pee in the middle of the run, or somebody's at the door, or get a phone call, goodluck continuing the run.

    I disagree @frozenfirevr, I would still be willing to help people and I feel anyone who actually doesn't mind helping someone else, won't let something like this get in their way.
    But most people aren't that nice. Right now helping doesn't hurt you in anyway, but if it does have an impact on your sheet, most people feel different, even start evaluating whether that person is worth it. And people asking for help would have to feel bad in a way too.

    Also, while I like the idea of moving away from IL, this system just might make the entire idea of dungeons a race and take away all the leisure from it, I don't think there's much of that even now, but some people do hang our with friends in there once in a while, explore stuff, stare at portraits or whatever and cool off. It might work fine in a perfect system but I don't think we're there yet.
    @frozenfirevr the thing is, any meaningful system, will by default force you to make a choice, whether to play efficiently or not. In terms of development time, this is easier to implement than to implement a meaningful ilvl system. Also, I updated my post to include something which should help with the issue.
  • therealprotex
    therealprotex Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 516 Arc User
    edited October 2017

    First off, I would like to make this clear:

    1) I do not judge players by ilvl.
    2) I do not judge players by how well they perform in dungeons.
    3) I do not use the current system to judge other players and I would not use this system either.

    With that being said however, I also acknowledge that there are players who are judging others and I am kind of sick of ilvl being used as the measure that is used for judging, as it is the WORST way of judging others currently available in NW. Due to this, I would like to see ilvl be removed from NW queue requirements (yes, you do not require a specific ilvl to enter a dungeon), the total item level stat removed and instead add a new tab to the character sheet which is view able by anyone inspecting you called, "Dungeon Statistics." Item level will still exist on each piece of gear, to indicate which pieces of gear have more stats, but, a "total item level" stat will no longer exist since it serves no purpose.

    In this tab, every dungeon will be listed with a dropdown menu, which, when clicked on, will display the following information about that character and account:

    1) Fastest completion of dungeon xyz.
    2) Average completion time of dungeon xyz.
    3) Slowest completion of dungeon xyz.
    4) Total number of completions of dungeon xyz.
    5) Number of times dungeon xyz has been entered.
    6) Number of times player has been kicked from dungeon xyz.
    7) Number of times player has abandoned dungeon xyz.

    This will be displayed in the form Character Best: x (Account best: Y), so that players can clearly see, when inspecting another character simply by looking at their statistics panel, how much experience the other player has on both that character and their accounts.

    Then, for dungeon queue requirements, I would have char and account unlock requirements. The account unlock, is a requirement you need to do once per account and the char unlock you will have to do on every character.

    T1 dungeons: Be level 70.

    T2 dungeons account unlock requirement: Have completed all T1 dungeons at least once each and have a total number of T1 completions greater than 10.
    T2 dungeons Char unlock requirement: Complete at least 1 T1 dungeon under 15 minutes.

    T3 dungeons account unlock requirement: Have completed all T2 dungeons at least 3 times each and have a total number of T2 completions greater than 20.
    T3 dungeons char unlock requirement: Have completed Castle Never under 15 minutes.

    Tong account unlock requirement: Complete both T3 dungeons at least once and have a total number of completions of both greater than 10.
    Tong char unlock requirement: Complete FBI under 25 minutes and complete SP under 35 minutes.

    While there are still flaws in the proposed system, it is still a good deal better than the current system. I am tired of seeing people inflating their item level to some arbitrarily high number, or players being unfairly judged by their ilvl. True, I am sure something similar would occur in the system I propose, but at the very least, you can maybe, to some extent, tell what kind of player someone is from the number of times they have abandoned a group or being kicked. Also, with the removal of the ilvl stat, maybe people will put less emphasis on it overall and start working on improving their performance and not some arbitrary number.

    I like the idea and I would add one more thing for the BiS junkies ;-)

    Add a progress bar that displays - in percent - how far your character is away from the (theoretical) maximum item level. This progress bar should not be visible to others, not even if they are in the same room. This should still eliminate the original idea of asking for a minimum item level/minimum percentage, since you could lie about the percentage when asked. And if the original idea was implemented I am sure that noone would ask for players with "90%+" or something anyway.
  • thefabricant
    thefabricant Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 5,248 Arc User
    edited October 2017
    @therealprotex the whole point of this suggestion was to do away with item level entirely, since you know, max ilvl is like 17k or so, but like 2-3k of that is stuff that has close to 0 impact on your character performance. The yellow text in my post should show the new update to it as well.
  • therealprotex
    therealprotex Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 516 Arc User

    @therealprotex the whole point of this suggestion was to do away with item level entirely, since you know, max ilvl is like 17k or so, but like 2-3k of that is stuff that has close to 0 impact on your character performance. The yellow text in my post should show the new update to it as well.

    But there are people who WANT to know if they are equipped with the best possible items. If there is something they can do to equip their character even better or if they reached the possible maximum. If that's what motivates them, why take it away from them? People will always play for different reasons and it would be pretty, well... arrogant/unfair to condemn one reason over another. If there is another way than total item level that shows how well someone is equipped in relation to a theoretical maximum, I am all in. But I do not see it, to be honest.
  • thefabricant
    thefabricant Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 5,248 Arc User

    @therealprotex the whole point of this suggestion was to do away with item level entirely, since you know, max ilvl is like 17k or so, but like 2-3k of that is stuff that has close to 0 impact on your character performance. The yellow text in my post should show the new update to it as well.

    But there are people who WANT to know if they are equipped with the best possible items. If there is something they can do to equip their character even better or if they reached the possible maximum. If that's what motivates them, why take it away from them? People will always play for different reasons and it would be pretty, well... arrogant/unfair to condemn one reason over another. If there is another way than total item level that shows how well someone is equipped in relation to a theoretical maximum, I am all in. But I do not see it, to be honest.
    @therealprotex before mod 12 (in mod 11.5) to achieve the maximum possible ilvl you had to use masterwork gear on your pet...Masterwork gear which was NOT BiS and would result in you having a lower overall performance. In fact, there are a lot of items, across many classes, that have a lower item level than the absolute maximum and yet are best in slot items.
  • therealprotex
    therealprotex Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 516 Arc User

    @therealprotex before mod 12 (in mod 11.5) to achieve the maximum possible ilvl you had to use masterwork gear on your pet...Masterwork gear which was NOT BiS and would result in you having a lower overall performance. In fact, there are a lot of items, across many classes, that have a lower item level than the absolute maximum and yet are best in slot items.

    People have the right to do silly things in a game, I guess. The fact that there is gear that contributes more to the total item level than BiS gear, does not negate my argument that people play for different reasons and that it would be unfair to remove the means for them to judge their playstyle.
  • benyr
    benyr Member Posts: 233 Arc User
    I completly understand your premise, and also sympathise fully with what your suggestion is trying to acheive. I am only too aware from from the pain and expense of rebuilding my pally over the years that experience trumps il everytime.
    The problem i have is that despite your best intentions i can't see past how any rating system wont be abused by a player base that is largely obsessed with rankings. And whilst i apppreciate on a pure like for like comparrison your suggestion holds more meaning that the il system, i just dont think that like for like comparrison will exist if it went live in the game.
    For example a bis player can solo a t1 in 15 mins i agree, but id only run a t1 in group of really inexperienced players, and id be stopping every 2 mins to try and explain whats happening etc, as there is no point just carrying newbies, its way better to pass on the knoweldge of how to run the content themselves, jusy like several kind hearted strangers did for me when i started. Without that help id have never progresed to the point im at (and im certainly not claiming to be the finished article), but i would worry for the player base of the game if therr was any kind of detrimental impact of helping others.
    I think youve grasped a particularly thorny issue and cudos for taking it on but im not convinced a solution that will penalise people for not just running in high end groups is the way forward
  • cilginordek
    cilginordek Member Posts: 459 Arc User
    I can see people refusing to run with first timers or badly geared people, to keep their dungeon statistics high.
  • thefabricant
    thefabricant Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 5,248 Arc User

    I can see people refusing to run with first timers or badly geared people, to keep their dungeon statistics high.

    @cilginordek the yellow text should prevent that.
  • cilginordek
    cilginordek Member Posts: 459 Arc User
    I thought unranked queue wouldn't give any rewards, in which case nobody would want to waste their time running it. If it does give rewards, nobody will run the ranked ones, apart from with certain well geared groups, again creating the problem I mentioned before.
  • spideymt
    spideymt Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 710 Arc User
    edited October 2017


    @spideymt I know the system I am proposing is flawed and not ideal, but I also know it is a better system then the 1 that currently exists. If you have a better proposal though, I am all ears.

    I told you i agree with the rest of your ideas..but if you wanna hear a proposal ( i dont think its a better one, its just another one..):
    I think rnd queues shouldnt count in your ideas like the same you said about the fun groups in your 3rd queue group.
    Another idea that i got:
    We all got so much titles. Lets do it about the title system.
    10x FBI. If your a DPS class it counts the avarage DPS from the 10 runs. If your a heal it counts your avarage heal, Tank damage taken etc...etc... I still dont know how it should be count for supporters. Its just an idea. I just play around in my brain ^^. After you got theese 10 FBI runs and you got an required DPS/Heal/Damage taken etc. you get a title like "the FBI killer". This shows everyone your good at your class and your experienced in FBI.
    You can do this with every other dungeon too, i guess.
    Like i said: Just an idea. Very flawed, i know. But i think you did it right to open this thread. GS sucks...allways did. GS says nothing about the ability from a player. We got so much ( like a buddie of mine allways says ^^) "GS bit.ches" and they cant play a bit. So ...thumbs up for your idea!

  • werdandi#8366
    werdandi#8366 Member Posts: 332 Arc User
    Your proposal is quite appealing even if it could create additional problems already pointed out by other people on this thread (e.g. stats worsened when you carry people).
    It could be a nice addition... to the item level !

    I think that the item level is something that should be kept because this game is a MMO, and one of the goal is to upgrade your character. It proves all your efforts in gearing your character (with or without $$$).

    It is true that many people judge from item level, but it is mainly because they prefer a safe bet: it is human nature.
    (If something had to be reduced, it would be the weight of guild boons: I see many people that are actually very-well geared or near-BIS but they don't belong to GH20 guilds. In the current system, they are overlooked).
  • preechr#2215
    preechr#2215 Member Posts: 488 Arc User
    Great proposal
    I would like to offer an expansion of it that might make it better

    Similar to @spideymt 's suggestion, but rather than using titles, your ratings page could list achievement type rankings
    If you complete a dungeon with a full group and your damage was more than the rest of the group combined, you obviously carried the group, so you were probably helping lower level guys run it, so at the end of the dungeon you get a choice of achievements you could rank... maybe you want to brag and rank up an achievement that shows you are better than everyone else, or maybe you want to rank up an achievement that shows you are a helpful person

    If your running a well built DC or Templock with a group of low levels and they make it through a tough dungeon having taken as much damage as you healed with no deaths, you could also choose among a couple of achievements to rank up

    Achievements could show completions of dungeons, speed runs... all kinds of things, and those rankings would probably be much easier to quantify by lfg

    They could be grouped by content as well, so a group looking for a tank for T9G could easily inspect how he has been performing in that particular dungeon, maybe looking at his total successful completions/fails and maybe something that shows a ratio of damage taken in those dungeon runs compared to the rest of his team on runs he didn't go down

    I think probably you could just not choose an achievement at the end of the dungeon if you didn't want to count it, and you could only be rewarded achievement ranks if you met particular criteria
  • uzala
    uzala Member Posts: 88 Arc User
    I am not sure if it will help alot, but indeed item level says nothing, this at least would say a little.
    But such system can be applied without the need of developers, similar to Worldoflogs for WoW, a devoted player or players could create a site where memebers can upload their combatlogs and have a profile containing logs from different dungeons that show a lot of the data suggested by @thefabricant . Such profiles could than be linked when forming groups.

    But as is now, the most reasonable people don't care of ilvl and usually those end up on other reasonable peoples friendlists which in turn become the greatest source for party creation. And the dungeon requirements have little to no impact on actually playing them in my view.
  • tripsofthrymr
    tripsofthrymr Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,624 Community Moderator

    and I would introduce a 3rd queue type, unranked queue. The purpose of adding the unranked queue is so that if you want to just run something for fun, without it showing on your statistics, you can do so. This has the advantage that players who do stuff for fun can do so without it negatively impacting their statistics, whilst also meaning that if you choose to queue under this option, it won't count for unlock requirements or count towards what lfg will use to judge you.

    I'm not sure how a third queue type would impact queue times or queue matchmaking quality.

    Not trying to discourage you... the problem you set out to solve is a valid one.

    Caritas Guild Founder (Greycloak Alliance)

    Sci-fi author: The Gods We Make, The Gods We Seek, and Ji-min
  • hypervoreian
    hypervoreian Member Posts: 1,036 Arc User
    edited October 2017
    To the OP: the new system you propose will create elitism 10x times worst than the current system.Also it is overcomplicated and it will take assets (time-money) away from Cryptic staff.And we know Cryptic is not Blizzard.i 'd rather see them to fix bugs than to spend countless hours to implelement a system that will accomplish little.
    In general,i think your proposals are filtered and mirrored through your own experiences and playstyle.But judging the whole based on the one,is never the way to go.

    "1) Fastest completion of dungeon xyz."

    Encourages cheesy compositions or rather to be less provocative,"optimal compositions of parties.That means people will search the classes that at given time point will be fOTM.For now that would be DC/OP GWF.A SW Striker will have a hard time to compete at that stat.As an example

    "2) Average completion time of dungeon xyz."

    Same as above.A GWF runs with 2 DCs 24/7 while a SW runs with one.Is the GWF a bette player?I think not.

    "3) Slowest completion of dungeon xyz."

    The guy might explore the dungeon,but he never has the chance.I never went to explore the alternate route of original PK nor i ever solved the PK riddle room with the torches.But i always wanted to.With your proposals explorations /alternate rooms/lore is penalised.Hey I want to sit in that throne in ToNG to see what happens! (nothing).I did it yesterday.Should my teamates be angry with me? :)

    "4) Total number of completions of dungeon xyz."

    Again it says nothing.A player might plays 6 hours per day ,another 1.How you judge skill based on that?

    "5) Number of times dungeon xyz has been entered."

    You penalise new players here

    "6) Number of times player has been kicked from dungeon xyz."

    Some classes (CWs) used to regularly kick people from runs in Mod2 ,so a kicked player is no good?What about the trolling purposes?remember Weaver and how people muted him in his pown channel?How you ensure people will not invite and then kick people just to scratch his "image" ,his stats?

    "7) Number of times player has abandoned dungeon xyz."

    This could be of value ,but still too many variables.

    -------------------------

    "1 dungeons: Be level 70."

    Agree

    "T2 dungeons account unlock requirement: Have completed all T1 dungeons at least once each and have a total number of T1 completions greater than 10."

    Agree

    "T2 dungeons Char unlock requirement: Complete at least 1 T1 dungeon under 15 minutes."

    Disagree.You encourage speed runs.

    "T3 dungeons account unlock requirement: Have completed all T2 dungeons at least 3 times each and have a total number of T2 completions greater than 20."

    Agree

    "T3 dungeons char unlock requirement: Have completed Castle Never under 15 minutes."

    Disagree.You encourage speed runs and optimal compositions.You leave classes out.

    "Tong account unlock requirement: Complete both T3 dungeons at least once and have a total number of completions of both greater than 10."

    ..hm...Let's say I agree.Counter argument: "Why to run mSP ,in order to run toNG?i dont like MSP.Why you force me to another grind?Shouldn't I play the dungeons i take pleasure with? "


    "Tong char unlock requirement: Complete FBI under 25 minutes and complete SP under 35 minutes"

    Speed run encourangement,cheesy composition encourangement,you leave classes out,you create divides among classes,you frustrate people.(not you personally,your suggestions if implemented)

    --------------------------

    Bottom line ,your proposals are fine for anyone that wants spped runs and perfection.Fine but that's not what other players want.You dont know.Why to force them?
    Should you take a TR in your speed runs Sharp instead of a GWF?Why not a Sw as a primary DPS in a tong run.i know what you can say, "i do take them" ,yeah ok once for a while.But if the system you propose would be implemented,these classes in the long term would be left out.

    Any mediocre player can be carried by two good DCs and superb gear.Where is the skill???

    In general and in essense you want to promote your NW play style,(2 DCS ,one GWF,one DPS GF,one OP) to the rest of the community.
    And what's this obsession with speed runs?I HATE SPEED RUNS ,I want to see the whole dungeon not to run like crazy here and there.

    So by comparison current system is 10x better than you propose.

    No hard feelings and nothing personal :)
  • jonkoca
    jonkoca Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 2,586 Arc User
    Don't really care about il for anything less than fbi or tong. Msp I never run anyway.

    Quite happy to advertise in zone chat for etos and cn / esot etc. and take whatever +'s up first.

    Tong, and to a lesser extent fbi though, you do need a decent/good grp. No easy solution as to a quick and reliable way of judging players though, any system is gamable by those so inclined.

    Sounds lame but I think a "like" button next to players names on successful completion of runs would probably be the easiest solution. You could have T1, T2, and T3 likes. I'd say a pvp like button but eh, erm, no.

    No idea what my toon is now.
  • thefabricant
    thefabricant Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 5,248 Arc User

    I thought unranked queue wouldn't give any rewards, in which case nobody would want to waste their time running it. If it does give rewards, nobody will run the ranked ones, apart from with certain well geared groups, again creating the problem I mentioned before.

    @cilginordek there would be equal rewards for both systems, I see 0 reason to gate people out of loot for not running in this system. You say this means that some people won't use it, beyond the bare minimum they need to participate to unlock the dungeons, but there will also be people who do use it, the people who either don't care about their stats or the people who want the best stats they can possibly get.For them, their reward will be a higher number than other people, it is a different form of ilvl, run something a lot -> get a better number and that would correlate to their new, "ilvl." By choosing not to use the system, players are choosing to have a low ilvl, which means it is harder for them to get groups outside of friends. It is as simple as that.

    @hypervoreian I haven't done a speedrun in months, at the moment, if I play, I just run stuff for fun and that is it. I don't go out of my way to have an optimal group composition and go with whatever will get me into a dungeon the fastest. While I agree, this system might create worse elitism than the current system, at least this elitism will have some basis and not 0 basis and, just like in the current system, we are all free to ignore it anyhow. Would I like an ilvl system that actually tells you something about players? Yes. However, making a proper ilvl system that looks at stat distributions and builds etc would take much more effort than implementing something like this. I acknowledge this system is flawed, but it is better than the one we have. If you have a better proposal though, I am all ears.
  • micky1p00
    micky1p00 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 3,540 Arc User
    edited October 2017


    @hypervoreian I haven't done a speedrun in months, at the moment, if I play, I just run stuff for fun and that is it. I don't go out of my way to have an optimal group composition and go with whatever will get me into a dungeon the fastest. While I agree, this system might create worse elitism than the current system, at least this elitism will have some basis and not 0 basis and, just like in the current system, we are all free to ignore it anyhow. Would I like an ilvl system that actually tells you something about players? Yes. However, making a proper ilvl system that looks at stat distributions and builds etc would take much more effort than implementing something like this. I acknowledge this system is flawed, but it is better than the one we have. If you have a better proposal though, I am all ears.

    This is not about what you do. You proposed a system, and there are issues brought up.
    And still, even the current system is better than one based on a time. If the length of a run is measured it will negate any attempt to help someone or explain a person some mechanics or any other advice. This negates communications, cooperation, or even pee breaks.

    The proposed statistics is interesting, especially for the players, and if some want to share, or epeen they can screenshot and share. It maybe interesting as a leaderboard for those that opt-in into some competitiveness or want to submit their standings.
    But as a visible system for grouping it's not viable.

    Also the gear score has a monetization value, a player can buy it directly and not directly, and while people can whine and shout that buying gear and not knowing the class... it's in part what allows us freeloaders to keep playing.
    While yes, the proposal has indirect influence, to run in 15 minutes, you need gear, but it's not universally correct, you can be carried.

    The current system is not the worst. People need to understand what it shows, and it's limit.


    This topic was brought up not once, and for example from about a year ago,
    https://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter#/post/quote/1222999/Comment_12887256
    micky1p00 said:

    Or....
    We can relay not only on gear, but a hybrid score or combine the gating with another score, for example:
    For each new dungeon a person completes for the first time they will get 1000 points.
    For each subsequent they will get 100 points. We can add bonus points for killing everything (50), Faster than average time (50), Opening all the mimics (50) etc...

    But there is a catch, those are base points, the points will be diminished relatively of the players total score, for example

     new_points_gained / (1.9e-15 * x^4 + 7.4e-13 * x^3 + 1)  where x is the total score so far.
    
    What it will do is when a player starts it will give the 1000, and 250 are 250, but when accumulated about 10k points, adding 1000k will add about 48 points and 250 will add 12 and at 15k, 1000 -> 10 and 250 -> 2.5

    So in another way, for new player:
    completing a 1k dungeon first time = 1000, a run 100, with bonuses 250
    Player that has 5k points:
    completing a 1k dungeon first time = ~440, a run 44, with bonuses 110
    Player that has 10k points:
    completing a 1k dungeon first time = ~50, a run 5, with bonuses 12
    Player that has 15k points:
    completing a 1k dungeon first time = ~10, a run 1, with bonuses 2.5

    This can also be modified further to account for dungeons difficulty, for example (for bases points):
    T1 first time = 500, run 50 + total bonuses 50
    T2 first time = 1000, run 100 + total bonuses 100
    CN first time = 1500, run 150 + total bonuses 150
    FBI first time = 3000, run 300 + total bonuses 300

    etc...
    Lets call it delving experience score, gating by it, allows for people that are confident to get quickly to new dungeons by running different dungeons and getting the score, people who are less confident can repeat lower dungeons to get more experienced.

    It's an idea... I'm sure it can be further refined, perhaps combined with gear etc.. to get something workable..

    To take that and other ideas and refine them, we need to define what our goal\s are.

    And part of those goals also what it's purpose in terms of "where it's going to be used". Making a 'score' for dungeon gating, or the inevitable lfg gating, or hidden/public MMR score to include in the matchmaking for public queue to make public queue actually palatable even if you are not BiS and bring your own "we can carry anything that we get there" team.
    Not every solution is optimal for all cases.

    Lets try to make a score that will try to predict or reflect a groups chance to complete some content in a successful manner. And by successful we should include 2 criteria, first is the goal achieved, dungeon finished loot gained. And the second is that it had minimal social contention, minimal player change, and maximum help and cooperation. Obviously the first is easy to quantify and the second is extremely hard but we should try at least somewhat to include both goals.

    So higher average group MMR score higher chance for a successful run.

    Lets refine:

    1. Gear should contribute - It is a montization avenue and a progress controller by which the devs gate content. Let be realistic it's not going away. And it is some measurement as for the same skill levels, better gear -> better chance of success.

    2. It should encourage completion - A penalty for leaving is a simple solution, and yes it's understandable that sometimes we all need to leave, so the penalty should not be too harsh and yet harsh enough to accumulate for people who are repeat offenders and disrupt other delver attempts. For example 10 points penalty for leaving.

    3. Negate exclusion of newer players and 'mentoring'. - A bonus score for completion with a low MMR group. Same as Elo gives higher score for beating a harder opponent. For example 20 points bonus if you have a first time runner. Or/And 1 point per each 100 points of MMR difference between you and the group average (if you higher).

    4. Reflect expiriance and capability - As the original issue, nothing is perfect, but a system like in the post quoted, points gained by each completion (with some diminishing returns) can easily and accurately enough reflect a person expiriance. And encourage people to run more group content. Experience, is easier to quantify, while capability is not, but IMO it shouldn't directly. At the end we don't need a specific capability of a player in a specific scenario, we want to predict group success.

    5. Cooperation / Interaction - A problem here. In some solutions there is a separate "behavioral score" and at the end of the run you can get a popup "Did you enjoy running with X" or "How was the run for you? In terms of team-play" Good/Bad. Yes as with all things it has issues, but over a large quantity of such answers each person can get a somewhat representative score. This can be included either in the overall MMR.

    And probably even more criteria or cases I forgot, or didn't think of, with all those, we can build a model that can be balanced. leavers are a problem, increase the penalty, players kick to fast non-afk players, lets kick cost something too, less than leaving, (people will try to communicate when kicking is not the easiest/cheapest solution).

    With the OP idea as was brought by many, the time requirements are counter productive to the defined goals. But those can be used in a more competitive way. For example a leader board for 10 fastest completion of each dungeon. You can have such leaderboard for groups, solo, etc..

    Top 10 Lowest gear to complete X, Top 10 least deaths, etc....

    But those are not for a general matchmaking, or gear score replacement, it's to encourage some competitiveness in PvE for those that want to participate.
  • ecrana#2080
    ecrana#2080 Member Posts: 1,654 Arc User
    I'm just going to comment on the OP here because I don't have a better idea than what you've proposed. I firmly believe that any system that tracks stats is just that. A system to track stats. Regardless of what you track in that system people will use it for whatever means they want including being elitists.

    It's not item level that is the problem. It is people that are the problem. Your idea is based on your determination of how someone can be 15k and have a bad build. Yes, that is very true.

    But have you ever helped someone that was 15K with a bad build? Or pugged and at the end of the run had someone that was a bad 14k ask what you're doing and for input? This is how people learn that don't have a community to lean on and instead we're in here thinking of ways to alienate them further jsut because they don't have the knowledge to have a "good build". I think you have and your new system would increase instances of better players running only with better players. I only see this system creating a more intricate way to widen the gap between hardcore BiS players from casual players.

    Wouldn't affect me either way as I either run with my buddies or pug so it's not like I'm forming "LF1M 50kIL SuperOP Oneshot monstah". I run with who I end up with in pugs. We either complete it or we don't.
  • almondum
    almondum Member Posts: 308 Arc User
    I agree that GS is utterly useless to judge someone's skill. OPs goal is noble but alas there will be a problem if it's goes away.

    Investment. Right now NWO gets extra $$ from people who are willing to "speed up" their progress, aka whales. These whales use real money to gain gear score and experience newer dungeons (why? work, lazyness with money, several MMO's at same time...the reason doesn't matter anyway). The real money is what keeps NWO running.
    Since our beloved Devs didn't have time (desire?) to add improved character customization/in-game life tools, aka secondary ZEN sinks, (better fashion system, housing, companion customization etc) the revenue sources are limited!

    We need the "whales" to keep NWO alive! Unless there's a way for casual working/rich folks to speed up their progress, the game will lose income!
    This will sound dumb, but please, don't harm the whales, as a freep player I urge you to think about them and "include" a "whale-friendly" alternative in the proposed system.

    (I realise that even with the proposed system they can purchase better enchantments/kits/etc with $$, but statistics can't be "bought", thus they will be subjected to a "time-wall" they wish to overcome. With such walls, real-money spenders might get bored/upset and move on to "greener" shores, while NWO loses income).