My frustration with the Random Queue stems from this:
Constants in my Play: I main a 14.5K OP (with loadouts for Tank and Heal).
I play around the time reset happens every day.
I log in, I invoke, collect VIP stuff, then go to SH and collect the 2 Cleric daily quests.
______ Current Situation for Cleric Daily and Bonus AD: I put a call into Alliance chat and take the first 4 people that want to do what ever the Skirmish and Dungeon were for the day. I don't care what they are as long as they can enter the dungeon.
We then take 30ish minutes, sometimes a little longer if it was CN, to do the 2 dailies. I have my dungeon shards and RAD, they have potentially gotten some nifty new gear or at worse like me got Dungeon Shards and RAD.
We all go about playing other things.
If someone puts a call out I'm available to help get whatever party through whatever dungeon.
----------- Introduce Random Q and that changes.
Now when it comes time for doing the 2 daily quests I need a DC or another OP I can trust to with FBI and mSP and I need 3DPS that can also be trusted to do those 2 dungeons. All the 7-10k players I would normally carry through a dungeon do not even get a look in and cannot do the Random Dungeon Daily because they do not qualify for FBI and mSP entry in the least.
------- I have no idea how that Random Q situation is supposed to be making the game better for all the players, especially when you have tied the Bonus AD that the lower geared players need to improve their gear to doing the Random Q!
Some of the people that log in every day and get those dungeon runs going in our Alliance are those 7-10k people looking to improve their characters and gear up, but they are all going to find the door closed to them for doing that effectively.
Obsidian Moonlight - Paladin Obsidian Oath - Warlock A whole lot of other Obsidian toons as well.
I have a lot to say about queues. I'm going to spread it out.
Rewards:
Who cares about rough AD and RP for rewards? We can already knock out daily AD quick. Refininment points are easy to obtain.
Why can't we have a dungeon vendor where we get a "seal of +4 belt" that we can then choose defiant, fierce etc? Rng is awful it already is a slim chance of a +5 ring and then it could be a ring you don't want. At least make a trade vendor to trade it in if seals is not an option.
Another great reward would be unbound no appearance change cost transmutes.
This one may be pushing it. How about a small amount of refined AD? I'd say 2000 since unrefined AD rate for blue ring is over that. Even just for your first random queue per char.
In short we can already get AD and RP. If you want us to play nice in a more varied arena with different classes we need a better incentive.
I do like the direction this game is going in different categories. I love the feedback and changes. It shows you do listen.
PS.: We are awaiting your reply for the stronghold shard quests with RQs to this day.
Yes. Yes, we are. Because if you need to run specific content for shards in addition to random content for AD, that's not remotely respectful of players with limited time, now is it?
Apologies for the delay on responding to this concern, I wanted to verify when I could get this change in and if our QA department would have time to validate the changes ahead of Module 12's release. And they could, so I've gone ahead and made the changes locally and they should make it into a preview build in the near future.
There will now be a daily Random Skirmish and Random Epic Dungeon quest available from the stronghold, instead of a specific dungeon, with the same rewards as the previous two epic dungeon dailies. Similar to before, players below level 70 will have an easier quest: they'll have a daily dungeon.
As an improvement for lower level players, because one of the epic dungeon quests was changed to a skirmish, players below 70 can complete both the daily skirmish and daily dungeon.
For those wondering, when the patch hits if you have any of the old quests saved up to do specific dungeons, those will remain on you and you can complete them, but you won't be able to accept them again.
I assume this means that a player will no longer be able to stock up on these quests to complete them when they have time. I think it would be great if the Chult Patrol weekly x6 system were copied over, so that they could be finished when players have time, rather than requiring them once per day. Obviously this doesn't line up perfectly with the bonus AD rewards, but I still see no reason why it wouldn't help the players out who wanted the shards for their guild, but couldn't devote much time every day.
Apologies for the delay on responding to this concern, I wanted to verify when I could get this change in and if our QA department would have time to validate the changes ahead of Module 12's release. And they could, so I've gone ahead and made the changes locally and they should make it into a preview build in the near future.
There will now be a daily Random Skirmish and Random Epic Dungeon quest available from the stronghold, instead of a specific dungeon, with the same rewards as the previous two epic dungeon dailies. Similar to before, players below level 70 will have an easier quest: they'll have a daily dungeon.
As an improvement for lower level players, because one of the epic dungeon quests was changed to a skirmish, players below 70 can complete both the daily skirmish and daily dungeon.
For those wondering, when the patch hits if you have any of the old quests saved up to do specific dungeons, those will remain on you and you can complete them, but you won't be able to accept them again.
I assume this means that a player will no longer be able to stock up on these quests to complete them when they have time. I think it would be great if the Chult Patrol weekly x6 system were copied over, so that they could be finished when players have time, rather than requiring them once per day. Obviously this doesn't line up perfectly with the bonus AD rewards, but I still see no reason why it wouldn't help the players out who wanted the shards for their guild, but couldn't devote much time every day.
I reallllly think you guys need to get some trusted members of the community on some sort of "council" to run things like this by instead of just winging it in willy-nilly. Certainly there are 10-20 people in this community that people trust that could be trusted to give proper feedback on things like this. As it stands, this looks like something that you just tossed in, and since its on page 36, few players will see it.
While a good thought, the fact that this has DRAMATIC impact on players can't be understated. In fact, all of these changes coming with 12B are going to be HUGE on their own...bundling them up is just cruel.
Now when it comes time for doing the 2 daily quests I need a DC or another OP I can trust to with FBI and mSP and I need 3DPS that can also be trusted to do those 2 dungeons. All the 7-10k players I would normally carry through a dungeon do not even get a look in and cannot do the Random Dungeon Daily because they do not qualify for FBI and mSP entry in the least.
------- I have no idea how that Random Q situation is supposed to be making the game better for all the players, especially when you have tied the Bonus AD that the lower geared players need to improve their gear to doing the Random Q!
Some of the people that log in every day and get those dungeon runs going in our Alliance are those 7-10k people looking to improve their characters and gear up, but they are all going to find the door closed to them for doing that effectively.
My Guild is made up of almost entirely those level of players.
I created my Guild with the express intention of having a place for low geared, low IL, new players to kick start their game. No real ambitions beyond getting a boon or two and providing somewhere that players could come and get advice and help and have a laugh within a realy nice alliance.
It really looks like the best way I can help those players is to shut my own Guild down and advise them to jump on to the first L20 Guild that will take them before they all fill up completely. Because without the IL boost from the full Guild Boon list they will not only get left behind in the dungeons, they won't even be able to get into the damned dungeons in the first place.
Dungeoneers Shards are pretty vital to an emerging Guild. To turn round and say that every single character between first hitting level 70 and finally unlocking FBI and MSP after grinding SKT and CA, can no longer do dungeons that will contribute those Shards is frankly ludicrous.
What is more insulting than anything else is that yet again, those players didn't even figure into the thinking behind it.
But on the bright side... those high end players will now be able to earn even more Dungeoneers Shards, and Guild Marks, so win-win I suppose. Devs get a pat on the back from the high end for their continued support of the hard done to, and the high end get more stuff.
Is it really worth all this just to keep a few people happy over Seals of the Brave???????
It does present a rather serious problem sticking shards behind an MSP and FBI wall. It might be easier to reach 11k going off just the words of the developers, and it might be a lot easier to gear and prep alts for MSP and FBI as well due to the new patron system and account wide dungeon unlocks, however, these dungeon unlocks don't count for newer players.
In my opinion, random queues should treat dungeon unlocks and player level similarly for queue requirements. If you don't have the dungeon unlocked, you can still random queue for that category, you just will not be placed in dungeons you don't have access to. There is no way to relock a dungeon. Due to dungeon unlocks now being account-wide, this no longer benefits alts. However, you can bring a new player with you to prevent MSP and FBI from getting queued. This might seem cheesy at first, but isn't the point of this whole thing to encourage playing with newer players and getting along with them? It would (as far as I can tell) exclusively benefit newer players trying to jump into random queues.
LF1M 11k newbie without MSP unlocked
EDIT - There is the possible abuse of using a newer player who agrees to take on the 30 minute leaver penalty (since they weren't going to be running dungeons in the foreseeable future anyways), but that is likely more of an issue with the leaver penalty not being very severe.
If the goal is to have fewer Tanks and Healers for our current end game .Then mission accomplished. And if teams will be looking to have a player that will be sure to allow them to avoid any end game tasks sounds like that is spot on as well.
Wait, wait, now L70s can't get Dungeon Shards *at all* without being 11K and unlocking FBI and MSP and queueing random for them?
This is not the case, as I indicated in my original post on the topic, players level 70 and above will have a Random Epic Dungeon and Random Skirmish. So even if you don't yet qualify for Fangbreaker or Master Spellplague, you'll be able to complete the Skirmish daily and receive the same rewards as you would have received for a daily epic dungeon in the old system.
Some of the people that log in every day and get those dungeon runs going in our Alliance are those 7-10k people looking to improve their characters and gear up, but they are all going to find the door closed to them for doing that effectively.
We have made countless changes with the release of Module 12 and even more with the release of Module 12B that make it much, much easier to get into the 11k range. With the release of Chult, obtaining high item level equipment is easier than ever, and with Module 12B, refining your enchantments and artifacts will be easier than ever. Yes, there are some new high end ranks introduced, but the adjustments to the curves as well as the tremendous quality of life improvements should result in many players hitting higher level enchantments much more easily.
Their AD gain also hasn't been negatively impacted. The only thing that may change is that a player who meets the Random Epic Dungeon requirement and hasn't gotten the bonus that day may want to not queue with a player who can't access that queue for one random epic dungeon. For the average player who doesn't have a lot of friends to run dungeons with, the experience should improve as a whole as more players are available and more tanks and healers are encouraged to queue.
For those that do have friends, we aren't tremendously worried, we think that players will still be willing to help their friends run through dungeons to help them gear up to the point that they can run the Random Epic Dungeon as well. Particularly because this it is no longer an ordeal to get to that point. We will keep an eye on this though, so please give us feedback so to how much these changes have altered your behavior once they go live.
One difficult component of digesting changes like these is that it's very hard to imagine how they will impact your play patterns until they actually ship on the live server. For instance, if before you would have been willing to run dungeons a few times with your lower level guildmates, but it's also very important to you that you get your daily AD earning out of the way, this will only change a single run.
Wait, wait, now L70s can't get Dungeon Shards *at all* without being 11K and unlocking FBI and MSP and queueing random for them?
This is not the case, as I indicated in my original post on the topic, players level 70 and above will have a Random Epic Dungeon and Random Skirmish. So even if you don't yet qualify for Fangbreaker or Master Spellplague, you'll be able to complete the Skirmish daily and receive the same rewards as you would have received for a daily epic dungeon in the old system.
I totally missed that.
EDIT - wait are we talking AD or shards? EDIT - okay so it's shards, yeah okay it's not completely bad then
Wait, wait, now L70s can't get Dungeon Shards *at all* without being 11K and unlocking FBI and MSP and queueing random for them?
This is not the case, as I indicated in my original post on the topic, players level 70 and above will have a Random Epic Dungeon and Random Skirmish. So even if you don't yet qualify for Fangbreaker or Master Spellplague, you'll be able to complete the Skirmish daily and receive the same rewards as you would have received for a daily epic dungeon in the old system.
Are you guys going to be listening to feedback about the Item Level required to finish some of the dungeons you're putting on as 11k Dungeons? IE FBI and MSP. I really sincerely doubt a party of 11ks randomly smashed together by a queue will be fairing very well in these dungeons.
Relmyna - AC/DC Righteous + Haste| Nadine - CW MoF (working on it)|Buffy - GF SM Tact| Hrist - Justice Tankadin|Healadin (Wannabe Tank)| Lena -MI Sabo TR (Farmer) | Jeska - GWF SM Destroyer (Farmer) | Maggie - HR PF Trapper (Wannabe DPS)
--
I'll never retrace my steps.
It's really difficult for me to see that lots of energy, time and developpement have been involved in a functionnality that is going to add nothing good to the game, fix nothing because nothing was bugged, and brings many and many more problems to the game. Problems that have been raised all over these 37 pages of feedback.
Really hard to see that all this energy needed in that developpement will be for nothing, because no one will random queue, at least not happily. Yes skirmishes probably will be random queued, but because will have to get their shards for SH. But then again, the number of undergeared players, afk will increase a lot, because instead of a quick MotH, they'll end up in an endless IG that they don't want to run.
Really sad to see that one of the best feature ever implemented, the private queue, will suffer because rewards will be removed. That now with fresh lvl 70 alts that we maybe don't WANT to play, just earn AD in a legit way with them, we won't be able to continue. RIP ToS, RIP MotH or Dread Legion, now i will spend more time doing another random levelling dungeon, and won't be able to do skirmished because of gearscore/campaigns.
Really angry to see that once again you're totally blind to the HUMAN side of the players. You don't take any consideration of the time they have to run content, the will they have to run it. I have 15 min gametime, I can do a quick etos but random queue ends up in MSP, perfect... I don't want to run MSP because the lag is horrendus and the 2nd boss is bugged like 50% of the time? Yet i end up in MSP, perfect... I don't have the campaign key to run FBI, yet i end up in it, perfect...
Really disappointed by this change, another huge step back on the game, while the various precedent mods brought each time something good. (good gear for cheap, weekly progression not on a daily basis, etc etc). Yet this change comes, bringing problems where there weren't any.
Wait, wait, now L70s can't get Dungeon Shards *at all* without being 11K and unlocking FBI and MSP and queueing random for them?
This is not the case, as I indicated in my original post on the topic, players level 70 and above will have a Random Epic Dungeon and Random Skirmish. So even if you don't yet qualify for Fangbreaker or Master Spellplague, you'll be able to complete the Skirmish daily and receive the same rewards as you would have received for a daily epic dungeon in the old system.
@asterdahl Which skirmishes? Are we still talking only about Master of the Hunt, Dread Legion, Prophecy of Madness, Throne of the Dwarven Gods and Illusionist's Gambit (Master)?
1
beckylunaticMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 14,231Arc User
Wait, wait, now L70s can't get Dungeon Shards *at all* without being 11K and unlocking FBI and MSP and queueing random for them?
This is not the case, as I indicated in my original post on the topic, players level 70 and above will have a Random Epic Dungeon and Random Skirmish. So even if you don't yet qualify for Fangbreaker or Master Spellplague, you'll be able to complete the Skirmish daily and receive the same rewards as you would have received for a daily epic dungeon in the old system.
Which skirmishes? Are we still talking only about Master of the Hunt, Dread Legion, Prophecy of Madness, Throne of the Dwarven Gods and Illusionist's Gambit (Master)?
> @asterdahl said: > Wait, wait, now L70s can't get Dungeon Shards *at all* without being 11K and unlocking FBI and MSP and queueing random for them? > > > > This is not the case, as I indicated in my original post on the topic, players level 70 and above will have a Random Epic Dungeon and Random Skirmish. So even if you don't yet qualify for Fangbreaker or Master Spellplague, you'll be able to complete the Skirmish daily and receive the same rewards as you would have received for a daily epic dungeon in the old system. Some of the people that log in every day and get those dungeon runs going in our Alliance are those 7-10k people looking to improve their characters and gear up, but they are all going to find the door closed to them for doing that effectively. > > We have made countless changes with the release of Module 12 and even more with the release of Module 12B that make it much, much easier to get into the 11k range. With the release of Chult, obtaining high item level equipment is easier than ever, and with Module 12B, refining your enchantments and artifacts will be easier than ever. Yes, there are some new high end ranks introduced, but the adjustments to the curves as well as the tremendous quality of life improvements should result in many players hitting higher level enchantments much more easily. > > Their AD gain also hasn't been negatively impacted. The only thing that may change is that a player who meets the Random Epic Dungeon requirement and hasn't gotten the bonus that day may want to not queue with a player who can't access that queue for one random epic dungeon. For the average player who doesn't have a lot of friends to run dungeons with, the experience should improve as a whole as more players are available and more tanks and healers are encouraged to queue. > > For those that do have friends, we aren't tremendously worried, we think that players will still be willing to help their friends run through dungeons to help them gear up to the point that they can run the Random Epic Dungeon as well. Particularly because this it is no longer an ordeal to get to that point. We will keep an eye on this though, so please give us feedback so to how much these changes have altered your behavior once they go live. > > One difficult component of digesting changes like these is that it's very hard to imagine how they will impact your play patterns until they actually ship on the live server. For instance, if before you would have been willing to run dungeons a few times with your lower level guildmates, but it's also very important to you that you get your daily AD earning out of the way, this will only change a single run.
You skirted the issue and didn't answer the question. The answer is 'No, you can not get into the Eric random dungeon q if you don't have FBI unlocked' It's bad enough you're forcing this garbage system down our throats, at least be honest about it.
You can throw all the bs numbers you want to at us. It's doesn't change the fact that this is a terrible idea and absolutely destroys new players. Oh... They can get good equipment from Chult, huh? Good luck with a new 7k level 70 character in there.
My biggest problem with the dev team is that there is seemingly no one there asking the hard questions. Like, oh I don't know.., How does this change affect our playbase? Or.. How does this change affect a new player? Or the best.. We can do this, but SHOULD WE? In case you're wondering, the answer to the last question is no. No you shouldn't put this random q system into our game.
3
plasticbatMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 12,215Arc User
You can throw all the bs numbers you want to at us. It's doesn't change the fact that this is a terrible idea and absolutely destroys new players. Oh... They can get good equipment from Chult, huh? Good luck with a new 7k level 70 character in there.
Just in case you are not aware of it, you can buy Chult gear from AH dirt cheap. You don't need to go into Chulk to get the gear. The price is so low that makes new player not to farm gear anywhere else. Almost every piece is lower than 20K AD.
It is so cheap that I know somebody quit the game because of it. They farmed their heart out in SKT and RD. Then, found out others can get the similar gear for virtually nothing now. They were pissed.
*** The game can read your mind. If you want it, you won't get it. If you don't expect to get it, you will. ***
One difficult component of digesting changes like these is that it's very hard to imagine how they will impact your play patterns until they actually ship on the live server. For instance, if before you would have been willing to run dungeons a few times with your lower level guildmates, but it's also very important to you that you get your daily AD earning out of the way, this will only change a single run.
@asterdahl, I do not have to wait until this goes live to work out how it will impact my play patterns because the answer is: not at all. I only play content that I choose to play and/or enjoy playing. The introduction of Random Queues will not change this approach in the slightest. All it will mean is that I will not receive any daily bonus AD when I run dungeons since I will not under any circumstances be choosing to join a random queue. It also means I will not be visiting the Cleric in my SH for quests after Mod12B drops if the only ones on offer are random.
Something you have completely failed to address is that players like to choose the content they play for a variety of reasons. Random queues take away this freedom of choice, no matter what form of blackmail you employ to try to get people to join them. In my case, there are a number of dungeons that I do not like so choose not to run them. There is one dungeon that I flat out never run, even though it is one of the most popular ones these days, i.e. eToS. Why ? Simple, I am borderline arachnaphobic. I really don't like spiders. They are difficult to avoid in Neverwinter, especially with the introduction of the various types in Chult, but I can keep those encounters to a minimum. I'm not about to try and work through a whole dungeon full of the things. Heck, I'm even becoming increasingly reluctant to run SH Marauders as I have hit a string of times when one or more of the waves was just lots of spiders If I were daft enough to join an epic dungeon queue, I can guarantee NW RNG would quite happily drop me in eToS more times than I like to think about which would result in me immediately quitting the dungeon, leaver penalty or not.
So the arrival of random queues will mean me having a lot less reason to play NW on a day to day basis since the developers (or possibly their bosses) no longer want me to have complete freedom to choose which content I play.
Random queues! A new category of queues will appear in your queue list on preview. The new category random queue has within it a queue corresponding to each of the existing PvE queue categories: skirmishes, dungeons, epic dungeons and epic trials. By selecting one of these random queues, you will be matched into a queue in that category at random.
And of course, there will be incentives for queuing for a random queue, let’s take a look. Queuing for a random skirmish for the first time in a day will net you a daily bonus of 60 seals of the protector and 3,400 rough astral diamonds. Subsequent use of the random skirmish queue will net you a repeatable bonus of 20 seals of the protector and 400 rough astral diamonds.
Regardless of which skirmish you end up in, be it Master of the Hunt or the new skirmish in Module 12B—The Merchant Prince’s Folly—if you successfully complete the queue you will receive the same daily or repeatable bonus.
Goals of Random Queues
Before I dive into some of the finer details some of you may be wondering about, I would first like to talk about why we are introducing random queues. Here are the goals we set out (not necessarily in order of importance):
Ensure all queues are firing in a reasonable time frame, regardless of popularity.
Reduce burnout from running the same queue ad nauseum by introducing variety.
Make it clear when you are eligible for and when you receive daily bonus AD and seals.
Provide further bonuses for those players who can master the most difficult content.
Incentivize playing roles that are currently underplayed to reduce queue wait times.
Incentivize helping players who are new to a queue to foster a positive environment.
I understand what you're trying to do here and I do not think it's going to work like this. I do no think it is right to lock astral diamonds for new/fresh level 70 players behind a grindwall of unlocking Storm king's thunder and finishing River District. How is this going to help a new player? Even their guild won't be incentivized to run dungeons with them to help them if they aren't eligible for Random Queue. This is going to hurt new people. You make friends by being helped directly by people in your guild or alliance- not random strangers in pug. It gives a crazy advantage to people with high end guild boons-- Making lower level guilds feel the strain to keep people even more.
Other people have suggested making Random Queue an extra AD bonus to incentivize people to unlocked the harder content rather than full stop taking away any hope someone has of not doing leveling dungeons for their AD from now until eternity. What is the incentive for even leveling up gear at all if all they can get through is leveling content and if they go higher than 10K they won't get a reward unless the are finished with the hardest campaigns?
This doesn't help lowbies get a better dungeon experience who are below level 70s and this does not help entertain mid- below 11k players who are newest to the game. This does nothing to change how people who have already mastered content are running it.
I'm sorry but I don't think you're really hearing what the complaints are actually about.
This may not really directly affect me as an end game player as much but I do care about what happens with how new people experience the game.
Keep the dungeon AD how it is now and add a bigger reward for Random Queuing at 11k+ with FBI/MSP unlocked. This will help people who have worked hard have something to reward themselves. Why even have a queue say that you can be 7 or 8k to queue if you have to be 11k and have grinded out content to make any AD from the dungeon without using a dungeon key.
Relmyna - AC/DC Righteous + Haste| Nadine - CW MoF (working on it)|Buffy - GF SM Tact| Hrist - Justice Tankadin|Healadin (Wannabe Tank)| Lena -MI Sabo TR (Farmer) | Jeska - GWF SM Destroyer (Farmer) | Maggie - HR PF Trapper (Wannabe DPS)
--
I'll never retrace my steps.
The mod12B skirmish has an IL requirement. Which means that Skirmish Random Queue will not be free of IL requirements on the 'Epic' version. Iirc the IL was something like 10k.
I know you can get to 10k 'easily' enough with the Chult gear (have not checked, but from what little i have read it seems so). But you have to understand, a new player will have 0 AD, because Leveling Dungeon Random Queue gives EXP for <Lvl70 iirc.
I don't know, I don't like these ILs requirements; FBI and MSP should not be in the same queue as MC. And the same goes for the new skirmish; not friendly to new players.
I actually find myself completely without motivation for logging in and doing my dailies. I sit there and say to myself; "why am I bothering..?"
As a new player with no 70 level characters and seeing my opportunity to gin even a small amount of AD going out the window I am feeling the same thing. Why am I even trying? Without a way to build up the 100's of thousands of AD needed to get reasonable equipment so I can even think of playing in the Epic level stuff is now no longer in sight for me. As it is now, I run a dungeon and I get a few thousand at a time.
Now I will get zero because some developer things I should play like they want me to play, don't have more than a single character, and it better be a cleric because they need more clerics in the queue? Really? This whole pile just smells bad.
The mod12B skirmish has an IL requirement. Which means that Skirmish Random Queue will not be free of IL requirements on the 'Epic' version. Iirc the IL was something like 10k.
I know you can get to 10k 'easily' enough with the Chult gear (have not checked, but from what little i have read it seems so). But you have to understand, a new player will have 0 AD, because Leveling Dungeon Random Queue gives EXP for
I think most of the complaints could be resolved by making MSP/FBI in their own queue category. IE Tier 2.5 instead of lumped together with Malabog's Castle and Valindra's Tower.
Relmyna - AC/DC Righteous + Haste| Nadine - CW MoF (working on it)|Buffy - GF SM Tact| Hrist - Justice Tankadin|Healadin (Wannabe Tank)| Lena -MI Sabo TR (Farmer) | Jeska - GWF SM Destroyer (Farmer) | Maggie - HR PF Trapper (Wannabe DPS)
--
I'll never retrace my steps.
I would okay with those brave souls that attempt the Random Queue being rewarded with higher AD and Seal drops. But not with Random Queues being the ONLY way to get AD and Seals from dungeons and skirmishes.
I just keep reading the comments and seeing two different things being said. If I queue for a specific dungeon I will not get the Bonus RAD. But will I get any RAD or none at all? Am I going to have any way to get any RAD as a new player? Or am I going to be stuck in a developer's hell until I somehow crawl up to the 70+ the 11000 level?
This really feels more like it is about money and Pay-to-Play then it is about helping balance the parties of helping me not be bored with the content I select to run in. :-(
2
beckylunaticMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 14,231Arc User
Something you have completely failed to address is that players like to choose the content they play for a variety of reasons.
I've been trying to sort out this analogy in my mind, and am still not really happy with it, but here goes.
Random queues feels like being told when I try to plan a vacation that the destination might be any of a camping trip, a cruise, a casino trip, a cross-county railway tour, a safari, or some kind of cleansing ashram thingy. Duration may vary. I have no idea what to bring. I don't want to do several of those things under any circumstances. So... I don't wanna go on vacation at all anymore. Taking that element of control away from me ruins everything.
And yet, the truth of it is that this change is unlikely to alter my playing patterns at all, because I already don't volunteer to join anyone for dungeon runs unless strongly pressed. This isn't really about toxic dungeon culture. It's my idiosyncrasies. NW is a sandbox game for me where I have the choice to socialize with other people while doing my own thing, and I scrounge AD from other sources, somehow. RQ won't increase my income, but won't meaningfully decrease it either. I'm an outlier because I do unlock content, thinking "this time for sure!" I'll join in and then... I just won't. Item levels are not a problem across a vast number of my alts already, and these will increase because I would have upgraded a ton of enchants if these changes weren't coming.
But as someone who can't even psych myself up to sometimes throw my + into chat when someone is making a run for something simple, a change like this isn't going to inspire me to suddenly participate more.
beckylunaticMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 14,231Arc User
Levelling dungeons will still give RAD, provided you go random. As stated repeatedly, you can RQ for whatever you have unlocked prior to level 70. At 70, you can still RQ for a levelling dungeon and get AD, with the queue picking from all of them.
This is the one exception to requiring everything in the queue to be unlocked to use the feature.
Those who are new to the game and are not swimming in tons of AD because they run the low level dungeons every day.
Sad that it seems even though they say it is not, this Random Dungeon thing is overly focused on the very top layer of players and seems to ignore how it is going to impact most of the rest of the players.
Just in case you are not aware of it, you can buy Chult gear from AH dirt cheap. You don't need to go into Chulk to get the gear. The price is so low that makes new player not to farm gear anywhere else. Almost every piece is lower than 20K AD.
But when you have a new player like me who will not be able to get 20k AD together let alone enough to buy all the gear, then Dirt Cheep is not what I would call it. :-)
Comments
Constants in my Play:
I main a 14.5K OP (with loadouts for Tank and Heal).
I play around the time reset happens every day.
I log in, I invoke, collect VIP stuff, then go to SH and collect the 2 Cleric daily quests.
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Current Situation for Cleric Daily and Bonus AD:
I put a call into Alliance chat and take the first 4 people that want to do what ever the Skirmish and Dungeon were for the day. I don't care what they are as long as they can enter the dungeon.
We then take 30ish minutes, sometimes a little longer if it was CN, to do the 2 dailies. I have my dungeon shards and RAD, they have potentially gotten some nifty new gear or at worse like me got Dungeon Shards and RAD.
We all go about playing other things.
If someone puts a call out I'm available to help get whatever party through whatever dungeon.
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Introduce Random Q and that changes.
Now when it comes time for doing the 2 daily quests I need a DC or another OP I can trust to with FBI and mSP and I need 3DPS that can also be trusted to do those 2 dungeons. All the 7-10k players I would normally carry through a dungeon do not even get a look in and cannot do the Random Dungeon Daily because they do not qualify for FBI and mSP entry in the least.
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I have no idea how that Random Q situation is supposed to be making the game better for all the players, especially when you have tied the Bonus AD that the lower geared players need to improve their gear to doing the Random Q!
Some of the people that log in every day and get those dungeon runs going in our Alliance are those 7-10k people looking to improve their characters and gear up, but they are all going to find the door closed to them for doing that effectively.
Obsidian Oath - Warlock
A whole lot of other Obsidian toons as well.
Rewards:
Who cares about rough AD and RP for rewards? We can already knock out daily AD quick. Refininment points are easy to obtain.
Why can't we have a dungeon vendor where we get a "seal of +4 belt" that we can then choose defiant, fierce etc? Rng is awful it already is a slim chance of a +5 ring and then it could be a ring you don't want. At least make a trade vendor to trade it in if seals is not an option.
Another great reward would be unbound no appearance change cost transmutes.
This one may be pushing it. How about a small amount of refined AD? I'd say 2000 since unrefined AD rate for blue ring is over that. Even just for your first random queue per char.
In short we can already get AD and RP. If you want us to play nice in a more varied arena with different classes we need a better incentive.
I do like the direction this game is going in different categories. I love the feedback and changes. It shows you do listen.
Signature [WIP] - tyvm John
I reallllly think you guys need to get some trusted members of the community on some sort of "council" to run things like this by instead of just winging it in willy-nilly. Certainly there are 10-20 people in this community that people trust that could be trusted to give proper feedback on things like this. As it stands, this looks like something that you just tossed in, and since its on page 36, few players will see it.
While a good thought, the fact that this has DRAMATIC impact on players can't be understated. In fact, all of these changes coming with 12B are going to be HUGE on their own...bundling them up is just cruel.
I created my Guild with the express intention of having a place for low geared, low IL, new players to kick start their game. No real ambitions beyond getting a boon or two and providing somewhere that players could come and get advice and help and have a laugh within a realy nice alliance.
It really looks like the best way I can help those players is to shut my own Guild down and advise them to jump on to the first L20 Guild that will take them before they all fill up completely.
Because without the IL boost from the full Guild Boon list they will not only get left behind in the dungeons, they won't even be able to get into the damned dungeons in the first place.
Dungeoneers Shards are pretty vital to an emerging Guild.
To turn round and say that every single character between first hitting level 70 and finally unlocking FBI and MSP after grinding SKT and CA, can no longer do dungeons that will contribute those Shards is frankly ludicrous.
What is more insulting than anything else is that yet again, those players didn't even figure into the thinking behind it.
But on the bright side... those high end players will now be able to earn even more Dungeoneers Shards, and Guild Marks, so win-win I suppose. Devs get a pat on the back from the high end for their continued support of the hard done to, and the high end get more stuff.
Is it really worth all this just to keep a few people happy over Seals of the Brave???????
In my opinion, random queues should treat dungeon unlocks and player level similarly for queue requirements. If you don't have the dungeon unlocked, you can still random queue for that category, you just will not be placed in dungeons you don't have access to. There is no way to relock a dungeon. Due to dungeon unlocks now being account-wide, this no longer benefits alts. However, you can bring a new player with you to prevent MSP and FBI from getting queued. This might seem cheesy at first, but isn't the point of this whole thing to encourage playing with newer players and getting along with them? It would (as far as I can tell) exclusively benefit newer players trying to jump into random queues.
LF1M 11k newbie without MSP unlocked
EDIT - There is the possible abuse of using a newer player who agrees to take on the 30 minute leaver penalty (since they weren't going to be running dungeons in the foreseeable future anyways), but that is likely more of an issue with the leaver penalty not being very severe.
Signature [WIP] - tyvm John
Their AD gain also hasn't been negatively impacted. The only thing that may change is that a player who meets the Random Epic Dungeon requirement and hasn't gotten the bonus that day may want to not queue with a player who can't access that queue for one random epic dungeon. For the average player who doesn't have a lot of friends to run dungeons with, the experience should improve as a whole as more players are available and more tanks and healers are encouraged to queue.
For those that do have friends, we aren't tremendously worried, we think that players will still be willing to help their friends run through dungeons to help them gear up to the point that they can run the Random Epic Dungeon as well. Particularly because this it is no longer an ordeal to get to that point. We will keep an eye on this though, so please give us feedback so to how much these changes have altered your behavior once they go live.
One difficult component of digesting changes like these is that it's very hard to imagine how they will impact your play patterns until they actually ship on the live server. For instance, if before you would have been willing to run dungeons a few times with your lower level guildmates, but it's also very important to you that you get your daily AD earning out of the way, this will only change a single run.
EDIT - wait are we talking AD or shards?
EDIT - okay so it's shards, yeah okay it's not completely bad then
Signature [WIP] - tyvm John
Are you guys going to be listening to feedback about the Item Level required to finish some of the dungeons you're putting on as 11k Dungeons? IE FBI and MSP. I really sincerely doubt a party of 11ks randomly smashed together by a queue will be fairing very well in these dungeons.
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I'll never retrace my steps.
Some of my best friends are Imaginary.
Really hard to see that all this energy needed in that developpement will be for nothing, because no one will random queue, at least not happily. Yes skirmishes probably will be random queued, but because will have to get their shards for SH. But then again, the number of undergeared players, afk will increase a lot, because instead of a quick MotH, they'll end up in an endless IG that they don't want to run.
Really sad to see that one of the best feature ever implemented, the private queue, will suffer because rewards will be removed.
That now with fresh lvl 70 alts that we maybe don't WANT to play, just earn AD in a legit way with them, we won't be able to continue. RIP ToS, RIP MotH or Dread Legion, now i will spend more time doing another random levelling dungeon, and won't be able to do skirmished because of gearscore/campaigns.
Really angry to see that once again you're totally blind to the HUMAN side of the players. You don't take any consideration of the time they have to run content, the will they have to run it. I have 15 min gametime, I can do a quick etos but random queue ends up in MSP, perfect... I don't want to run MSP because the lag is horrendus and the 2nd boss is bugged like 50% of the time? Yet i end up in MSP, perfect... I don't have the campaign key to run FBI, yet i end up in it, perfect...
Really disappointed by this change, another huge step back on the game, while the various precedent mods brought each time something good. (good gear for cheap, weekly progression not on a daily basis, etc etc). Yet this change comes, bringing problems where there weren't any.
Edit: typos
Are we still talking only about Master of the Hunt, Dread Legion, Prophecy of Madness, Throne of the Dwarven Gods and Illusionist's Gambit (Master)?
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All posts pending disapproval by Cecilia
> Wait, wait, now L70s can't get Dungeon Shards *at all* without being 11K and unlocking FBI and MSP and queueing random for them?
>
>
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> This is not the case, as I indicated in my original post on the topic, players level 70 and above will have a Random Epic Dungeon and Random Skirmish. So even if you don't yet qualify for Fangbreaker or Master Spellplague, you'll be able to complete the Skirmish daily and receive the same rewards as you would have received for a daily epic dungeon in the old system. Some of the people that log in every day and get those dungeon runs going in our Alliance are those 7-10k people looking to improve their characters and gear up, but they are all going to find the door closed to them for doing that effectively.
>
> We have made countless changes with the release of Module 12 and even more with the release of Module 12B that make it much, much easier to get into the 11k range. With the release of Chult, obtaining high item level equipment is easier than ever, and with Module 12B, refining your enchantments and artifacts will be easier than ever. Yes, there are some new high end ranks introduced, but the adjustments to the curves as well as the tremendous quality of life improvements should result in many players hitting higher level enchantments much more easily.
>
> Their AD gain also hasn't been negatively impacted. The only thing that may change is that a player who meets the Random Epic Dungeon requirement and hasn't gotten the bonus that day may want to not queue with a player who can't access that queue for one random epic dungeon. For the average player who doesn't have a lot of friends to run dungeons with, the experience should improve as a whole as more players are available and more tanks and healers are encouraged to queue.
>
> For those that do have friends, we aren't tremendously worried, we think that players will still be willing to help their friends run through dungeons to help them gear up to the point that they can run the Random Epic Dungeon as well. Particularly because this it is no longer an ordeal to get to that point. We will keep an eye on this though, so please give us feedback so to how much these changes have altered your behavior once they go live.
>
> One difficult component of digesting changes like these is that it's very hard to imagine how they will impact your play patterns until they actually ship on the live server. For instance, if before you would have been willing to run dungeons a few times with your lower level guildmates, but it's also very important to you that you get your daily AD earning out of the way, this will only change a single run.
You skirted the issue and didn't answer the question. The answer is 'No, you can not get into the Eric random dungeon q if you don't have FBI unlocked' It's bad enough you're forcing this garbage system down our throats, at least be honest about it.
You can throw all the bs numbers you want to at us. It's doesn't change the fact that this is a terrible idea and absolutely destroys new players. Oh... They can get good equipment from Chult, huh? Good luck with a new 7k level 70 character in there.
My biggest problem with the dev team is that there is seemingly no one there asking the hard questions. Like, oh I don't know.., How does this change affect our playbase? Or.. How does this change affect a new player? Or the best.. We can do this, but SHOULD WE? In case you're wondering, the answer to the last question is no. No you shouldn't put this random q system into our game.
It is so cheap that I know somebody quit the game because of it. They farmed their heart out in SKT and RD. Then, found out others can get the similar gear for virtually nothing now. They were pissed.
Something you have completely failed to address is that players like to choose the content they play for a variety of reasons. Random queues take away this freedom of choice, no matter what form of blackmail you employ to try to get people to join them. In my case, there are a number of dungeons that I do not like so choose not to run them. There is one dungeon that I flat out never run, even though it is one of the most popular ones these days, i.e. eToS. Why ? Simple, I am borderline arachnaphobic. I really don't like spiders. They are difficult to avoid in Neverwinter, especially with the introduction of the various types in Chult, but I can keep those encounters to a minimum. I'm not about to try and work through a whole dungeon full of the things. Heck, I'm even becoming increasingly reluctant to run SH Marauders as I have hit a string of times when one or more of the waves was just lots of spiders
So the arrival of random queues will mean me having a lot less reason to play NW on a day to day basis since the developers (or possibly their bosses) no longer want me to have complete freedom to choose which content I play.
@asterdahl
I understand what you're trying to do here and I do not think it's going to work like this. I do no think it is right to lock astral diamonds for new/fresh level 70 players behind a grindwall of unlocking Storm king's thunder and finishing River District. How is this going to help a new player? Even their guild won't be incentivized to run dungeons with them to help them if they aren't eligible for Random Queue. This is going to hurt new people. You make friends by being helped directly by people in your guild or alliance- not random strangers in pug. It gives a crazy advantage to people with high end guild boons-- Making lower level guilds feel the strain to keep people even more.
Other people have suggested making Random Queue an extra AD bonus to incentivize people to unlocked the harder content rather than full stop taking away any hope someone has of not doing leveling dungeons for their AD from now until eternity. What is the incentive for even leveling up gear at all if all they can get through is leveling content and if they go higher than 10K they won't get a reward unless the are finished with the hardest campaigns?
This doesn't help lowbies get a better dungeon experience who are below level 70s and this does not help entertain mid- below 11k players who are newest to the game. This does nothing to change how people who have already mastered content are running it.
I'm sorry but I don't think you're really hearing what the complaints are actually about.
This may not really directly affect me as an end game player as much but I do care about what happens with how new people experience the game.
Keep the dungeon AD how it is now and add a bigger reward for Random Queuing at 11k+ with FBI/MSP unlocked. This will help people who have worked hard have something to reward themselves. Why even have a queue say that you can be 7 or 8k to queue if you have to be 11k and have grinded out content to make any AD from the dungeon without using a dungeon key.
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I'll never retrace my steps.
Some of my best friends are Imaginary.
I know you can get to 10k 'easily' enough with the Chult gear (have not checked, but from what little i have read it seems so). But you have to understand, a new player will have 0 AD, because Leveling Dungeon Random Queue gives EXP for <Lvl70 iirc.
I don't know, I don't like these ILs requirements; FBI and MSP should not be in the same queue as MC. And the same goes for the new skirmish; not friendly to new players.
Now I will get zero because some developer things I should play like they want me to play, don't have more than a single character, and it better be a cleric because they need more clerics in the queue? Really? This whole pile just smells bad.
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I'll never retrace my steps.
Some of my best friends are Imaginary.
This really feels more like it is about money and Pay-to-Play then it is about helping balance the parties of helping me not be bored with the content I select to run in. :-(
Random queues feels like being told when I try to plan a vacation that the destination might be any of a camping trip, a cruise, a casino trip, a cross-county railway tour, a safari, or some kind of cleansing ashram thingy. Duration may vary. I have no idea what to bring. I don't want to do several of those things under any circumstances. So... I don't wanna go on vacation at all anymore. Taking that element of control away from me ruins everything.
And yet, the truth of it is that this change is unlikely to alter my playing patterns at all, because I already don't volunteer to join anyone for dungeon runs unless strongly pressed. This isn't really about toxic dungeon culture. It's my idiosyncrasies. NW is a sandbox game for me where I have the choice to socialize with other people while doing my own thing, and I scrounge AD from other sources, somehow. RQ won't increase my income, but won't meaningfully decrease it either. I'm an outlier because I do unlock content, thinking "this time for sure!" I'll join in and then... I just won't. Item levels are not a problem across a vast number of my alts already, and these will increase because I would have upgraded a ton of enchants if these changes weren't coming.
But as someone who can't even psych myself up to sometimes throw my + into chat when someone is making a run for something simple, a change like this isn't going to inspire me to suddenly participate more.
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Epic Dungeons are clearly not all the same and they should be both split and the rewards made commiserate to the effort HAMSTER takes to clear them.
This is the one exception to requiring everything in the queue to be unlocked to use the feature.
Neverwinter Census 2017
All posts pending disapproval by Cecilia
Sad that it seems even though they say it is not, this Random Dungeon thing is overly focused on the very top layer of players and seems to ignore how it is going to impact most of the rest of the players.