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Private queue and premades: nothing changed?

pando83pando83 Member Posts: 2,564 Arc User
edited September 2017 in PvP Discussion
In my experience, mixed queue is still filled with 3-4 men half premades and almost full premades of 15k-16k players from the same guilds. My last experience was 2 hours spent going through a row of PMvs pug team, 4x15k+ players in one team, and the other filled with 8-10k+me.
45 minutes spent with 4 matches that were the same team A (premade) vs the same pug team. They kept going in mixed queue as a premade, and kept stomping the same 10k pug team.

In another match i joined a 4-men premade that was losing against another 4-men premade. We lost but it was fun.

And my point is: wasn't private queue supposed to allow such premades or partial premades to arrange PvP matches? Why are they still going to mixed queue even when they face the same pug team for almost 1 hour, in an endless row of boring trade capping matches?

After all the "give us private queue because premades always try to find other premades and don't want to fight pug teams".... they are still plaguing mixed queue, going premade even in a row of matches where they always meet the same 10k pug team. So the reason they go premade isn't to fight other premades perhaps? Or they would arrange matches in private queue.

So what's the use of private queue if premades still go mixed queue?

Last consideration: another argument is that "players want to play with friends in PvP" or "have fun with friends in PvP". Ok. They want to PLAY. What's the point in going to mixed queue with other 15k+ friends if you end up standing there for 10 minutes, trade capping? Is that "playing"? Or even fun? Isn't it more fun to just go to private queue and fight there?

So what's the point of this private queue all the PvP guilds wanted so much, if they are still going premade in mixed queue? To please the 1% that goes PMvsPM, or to just make it easier for that 1% of PvP guilds to arrange their occasional PMvsPM?

So the only conclusion is that the motivation for the usual 3-4 men geared premade we find in mixed queue, is that they want to pugstomp.
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Comments

  • grampyrulz#4209 grampyrulz Member Posts: 95 Arc User
    I've been thinking about this too, not just from a mixed queue stand point, but from a solo queue stand point as well. It was said no rewards for private queues because it is exploitable. How is it not considered exploitation the way pando describes the above situation?

    So, how about a transparent queue. You get to see name, class, and IL of everyone queueing and/or playing. Something like this could even be a persistent 10 v 10 map that ppl could join and leave at their leisure with no penalty. Map could reset when done, possibly with a shuffle, but ppl could constantly be joining and leaving as they liked. Not that I think this would have any more exploitation than the current state, but make it no rewards like private queues if you like. This way, when the pug stompers join you can just leave if you wish, or not join when you see that they are already playing.

    On a side note, I noticed that my IL changes if I have my companion summoned or not before joining a match. Is this what everyone sees as well? So if my companion is summoned when I queue, my teammates see my IL as if I have a companion and see less IL if it was not summoned when I queued? If so I think all companions should either be auto dismissed when you queue, or you should not be able to queue until you dismiss them.
  • miyanaamiyanaa Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 72 Arc User
    I dont understand this either.

    As someone who has been premading a lot for the past few years, I can say that my friends and I have been doing that too, make a team and queue and pugstomp..

    BUT thats cause there was no private queue.

    It was close to impossible to sync queue with how broken it was, had to wait for pop for an hour sometimes, decline all the time and just...it was so annoying. So people used to try to snipe other premades,cause it was easier than syncing, also cause most of premades refused to sync for different reasons,but that doesnt matter.

    Problem now is that from what I know theres one or two guilds (@ PC) that keep premading in normal queue just to boost their leaderboard stats and boost their own ego.
    Whats the point though? Leaderboard is broken, PvP in this game is dead - so why even bother?

    You want to pvp with friends? Then make a team and make inhouse... or ask other guilds to do a 5v5.

    When they introduced priv queue to us we used to premade every single day with bunch of people,always trying to mix things up so its balanced and fun for everyone, queue takes few seconds too, so why not do THAT instead of pugstomping?

    To me is seems like people are still scared of losing for some reason. Too much ego maybe. Who knows :P

    In my opinion normal queue should be available ONLY for duo-trio, if people queue as 5 it should force them to queue in private.
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  • grampyrulz#4209 grampyrulz Member Posts: 95 Arc User
    Is there a search equivalent for console, or is that just PC?
  • pando83pando83 Member Posts: 2,564 Arc User
    edited September 2017
    etelgrin said:

    Nobody likes it neither the 3k scrub is enjoying it nor is the 15k.

    Try calling some friends, form your own premade or ask some pvpers around to form a premade to face/snipe the premade roaming around, or just use "o" button to go to search check if the premade is already in game/map or not, wait when they got into match then queue and you won't meet them.

    This does not address at all the topic of the thread. Which is: what is private queue for, then?

    It was created because PvP guilds said that "premades going to mixed queue don't want to pugstomp, they only want to find other premades but they can't arrange PMvsPM matches". They said "give us PMvsPM queue (private queue) and premades will go there".

    Lies.

    Private queue is there from some time and you still find 3-4 men premades of full 15k-16k PvP players going for one hour or more in mixed queue to FARM pug teams. One of the things that was told me by one of such premades was " we need to farm for stronghold".

    So the truth is that there's may be the 0,1% of PvP players from PvP guilds who only want to PMvsPM in a separate queue. The rest want to simply gang up and pugstomp.

    In the end, resources and manpower wasted to create a private queue that is USELESS for the game, does nothing at all to improve PvP even slightly for the community, and is only there to please a very, very, very small group of PvPers who need it to arrange their occasional PMvsPM between PvP guilds.

    The question of the topic is: so all the requests from PvP guilds, to have this private queue, was just for the above? It was presented as the way to free mixed queue from premades. They even said solo queue was useless and that PmvsPM queue was the way to go.

    Again, looks like they were either quite wrong, or, plain and simple, telling lies to get their toy.

  • wintersmokewintersmoke Member Posts: 1,641 Arc User
    etelgrin said:

    Nobody likes it neither the 3k scrub is enjoying it nor is the 15k.

    Try calling some friends, form your own premade or ask some pvpers around to form a premade to face/snipe the premade roaming around, or just use "o" button to go to search check if the premade is already in game/map or not, wait when they got into match then queue and you won't meet them.

    This idea has been floating around the queue discussions for almost as long as I have. There are two problems. First of all, most of my friends hate PvP so much they probably wouldn't go if they brought back the participation rewards. I have lost guildies due to their refusal to even set foot in PvP when we needed Conqueror's shards for an upgrade. They are certainly not gonna join me, just for the "fun" of getting stomped for half an hour or so.

    The other problem is, what difference does it make? If I have 4 BIS players in my guild, & if they are all on at the same time, & i can somehow convince them to premade with me... ( none of which is true , BTW Just supposing) then there are three possible outcomes. 1) We meet the full pre-made & get stomped. (2) We meet the partial premade, and have a good fight or (3) We BECOME the premade that stomps the poor pug team. I don't really like those odds. I really don't like the idea of becoming a pre-made pug-stomper. Not that that would happen. Any team I could whip together would simply be too far away from BIS to make a difference. MAYBE we could hold up against the partial pre-made. But more likely, we would be stomped just as badly as a pure PUG team.

  • icexnineicexnine Member Posts: 66 Arc User
    1. Pvp has an extremely low population at any given time. I'd say anywhere from less than 10 to a high estimate of 50 players on Xbox. And a large % of those don't even have pvp gear and/or are less than 10k iL
    2. No new players seem even relatively interested in being competitive with the few players who still pvp (probably because of the difficulty and lack of tangible rewards).
    3. Class imbalance and how long things take to get fixed (if ever). Could be a lack of developer interest, knowledge, resources, etc...
    4. Pve is boring and there's nothing else to do but queue dom when 5v5's cant be set up.
    5. Some people obviously enjoy pug stomping and aren't interested in private matches. A separate solo q will likely result in these players quitting because of insanely long queue times.
  • pando83pando83 Member Posts: 2,564 Arc User
    edited September 2017
    etelgrin said:

    @pando83

    Yes I know it doesn't fix the problem as the premade queue didn't fix it, unless maybe there would be public queue to accept only premaded 5 man parties to match with the others. In my opinion, the reason why the private queue fails at serving the purpose is too much toxicity and trashtalking between the so called PvP players, its unfixable if you ask me cause I tried to reach particular people many times and hit the wall, its wasted effort. Of course the very same players will tell you that they play in premades and that I'm excluded, ok, but if it would been like this, there would be no pugstomping issue threads existing. What it actually serves it that me and my buddies can queue privately and do tests in dom 1v1, 2v1 and so on, then queue public dom or private dom if we can find opposing relatively normal communicative non-toxic people to play with, trust me this is not as easy at it seems and by any means I don't try to trashtalk anybody here, in case someone overinterprets my massage sadly I cannot pull out the amazing rhetorics of @tolkienbuff to deal with certain reatards in normal way, I work in customer service everyday, I won't be threatening anybody as special snowflake in game.

    Funny thing. I just met a 2-men premade from a certain guild, 15k both BiS PvPers of course. Needless to say, that 2-men premade was exactly what transformed the match into a one-sided stomping. If they would split, the match would have been WAY more balanced.

    Just to point out one thing: with current low PvP population, and 7k toons going to PvP for ADs, ANY PREMADE (2-3-4-5 men) done by geared/BiS players can HAMSTER up a match badly/increase the chances of a stomping greatly.

    Funny thing, a certain guild was the most vocal when it came to asking for a private queue, saying that premades just wanted a dedicated queue and were not into pugstomping, and you still see them forming partial premades in PvP. Obviously, because the only care about their guild and it's "not their fault" if PvP is unbalanced.

    Still, partial premades of BiS geared PvPers are formed and stomp pug teams, when splitting up would increase the balance and grant more fun matches.

    But as usual, when you will ask them, it will not be their fault if PvP matches end up one-sided due to partial premades from PvP guilds.

    PvP itself is not balanced. PvP guilds premades (any formation/number) simply turn what would be an unbalanced match, in a completely one-sided stomping.

    I would make these few changes:

    Private queue: premades, no matter how the match goes, the teams stay that way.

    Mixed queue: premades can still go there, but if the match becomes really one-sided (200+ score difference), the best player of the winning team is FORCEFULLY moved to the losing team and swapped with the worst performing player of the losing team. Auto balance. You go in with a premade, you're not guaranteed the teams will stay the same.

    Auto balance would apply to solo queue too.

    Leaderboard only for private queue (PMvsPM matches, which makes more sense).
    Leaderboard is something that makes sense, to me, only for PMvsPM matches. Mixed or solo queue outcomes is too random and, as we've seen, subject to players manipulating their win/loss ratio or K/D ratio with bad behaviours.

    This way, mixed queue is for rewards, while you go in more serious matches with preformed teams, to rank in a leaderboard.

    Make these changes and you will give a meaning to the leaderboard, give a reason to players to try PMvsPM in private queue, and stop the pugstomping premades in mixed queue (or sync in solo queue).

    Last but not the least: reduce the gap in reward between a winning and a losing team. PvP reward should be linked to personal performance (caps, defenses of points, and last the kills). This would discourage the bad behaviours of people quitting a match just because they lose, or kicking players to win.
    Post edited by pando83 on
  • nerfcc#8605 nerfcc Member Posts: 35 Arc User
    I don't understand why there aren't more people trying to setup private qs. If I had to guess I'd say its because there scared to compete with evenly matched teams. They would rather pug stomp and play another 5 man they know they can beat or pug stomping just feels a lot safer. People are also way to used to not dying more than anything I hope the kill and death totals go way up for each game in 12b.
  • kalina311kalina311 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 2,082 Arc User
    edited October 2017
    @pando83 said

    "Mixed queue: premades can still go there, but if the match becomes really one-sided (200+ score difference), the best player of the winning team is FORCEFULLY moved to the losing team and swapped with the worst performing player of the losing team. Auto balance. You go in with a premade, you're not guaranteed the teams will stay the same.
    "

    and how would this system of yours determine the best / Worst player to "swap" by what criteria scoring system exactly ?
    what makes a good pvp player stats wise in a match ?>

    given that there is no more then 2 of the same class of the same ... also you cant remove 1 teams only support.. etc
    Post edited by kalina311 on
  • pando83pando83 Member Posts: 2,564 Arc User
    edited October 2017
    kalina311 said:



    given that there is no more then 2 of the same class of the same ... also you cant remove 1 teams only support.. etc

    True. I just posted some random stuff. But the point is: private queue solved NOTHING. PVP GUILDS ASKED FOR IT, AND NOW THEY DO NOT USE IT.
    If you have better ideas you're free to post.

    Today i met a full premade of a guild well known for forming premades in domination. When they asked them why they don't go to private queue the answer was: cause there is no leaderboard there and no rewards. Plus some cheap trolling stuff like "cause there we don't get to stomp you" exc...

    Which means: premades are not done to face other premades or for competition. They are done to get easy leaderboard fake stats and rewards/ glory.
    Considering glory rewards for BiS players are very cheap, and leaderboard stats mean nothing right now, i'd say they just enjoy easy pugstomping.

    So PvP guilds asked for private queue for their premades. Now they have it but they don't use it much because...premades are done for leaderboard and stats.

    I would at least remove leaderboard from solo and mixed queue, and add it to private queue ONLY. After that, another change is that NOBODY gets a reward in PvP if the match ends up with 300+ points of difference (which means you can't go pugstomping for rewards, because you wouldn't get any).
    Also: AD daily rewards for solo queue only AND matchmaking that does not put people from the same guild or friend list, automatically together (if this is what happens in solo queue, like someone stated).

    At least these 3 ideas plus solo queue should help solve the pugstomping premades issue. I WONDER IF THE PVP GUILDS THAT WERE SO VOCAL WHEN IT CAME TO ASKING FOR PRIVATE QUEUE, WOULD BE VOCAL INTO ASKING FOR SUCH CHANGES THAT EFFECTIVELY DISCOURAGE PUGSTOMPING.

    What we said for years is now clear. Premades in mixed queue ARE made for pugstomping/ easy reward/ leaderboard. Not to "meet other premades".

    So the issue must be treated as such. Groups of players going to PvP just to pugstomp, get easy wins, get fake leaderboard stats. And it's not a small group. But a large part of the PvP dedicated community. Else, we would not still get plagued by pugstomping full or partial premades even now that there's private queue.

    Until the devs FORCE fair play/ balance in PvP (aka, keep premades ,any number or formation, OUT of any queue that is not the private queue), PvP will keep dying.
    These are the groups that are the most toxic, these are the guys that turn matches in completely 1-sided slaughters.
  • grampyrulz#4209 grampyrulz Member Posts: 95 Arc User
    I like this: no rewards, no stats for blow out matches. Might not solve everything, but at least a step in the right direction.
  • kalina311kalina311 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 2,082 Arc User
    edited October 2017
    @pando83

    so back to trading caps again/ being care bears and holding hands then ? lol ..

    so trading caps is not collaborating for rewards either ?

    so now only rewards for the match being "too" even LOL ?

    the private Q has many uses and is not exclusively for "premading" (it is also used for testing and giving feedback to devs ) and because players wanted it blah blah hypocrite blah blah resources wasted blah blah ..whine whine ... you may find semi premades more in the Q now farming glory for next mod pvp gear as well

    and because so called premade players wanted it they must use it all the time and never use the regular q at all ever even tho no one is left on the pc ... very strange dichotomy not many high end PC premaade players are left yet most people complain they are "constantly running into them.. both cases cannot be true ...the the overwhelming majority of population is not pvp players in the Q how the heck are players "always" getting premades

    is this your hypothesis ? anyone that has better gear then you or if 2 players have the same alliance guild tag they must be a premade and in a conspiracy to enjoy stomping and are not entitled to rewards cause they must use the private Q that they (even if is not them) advocated .. this sensationalised number Bs does not add up does it ? you are just grouping everyone together to suport your hampster points premiss and conclusions

    got news for you folks 2 high level 14-17k pve guild people that sync Q in the same match in mod12b will be considered a premade" by the OPS philosophy and "Toxic"

    hopfully deaths counts wilL be way up next mod and this wil be a non issues then cause a few weaker pugs can gang on A "premade PERSON" AND THEY ARE NO LONGER IMMORTAL

    lots of new"TOXIC" premade people will be born next mod due to gear equalisation .. and any pve scrub with 13k+ gear will become a "premade troll" in your eyes

    pve "people" are free to form thier own "semi premades" and go with their friends as well in thier super best in slot pve gear .. next mod i hear they added a mike feature for as well pvp lol

    you know the landscape will change next mod anyways ...so your post is already out of date/ and not what the new meta will be ...also there is a 4 hour timer on kicks next mod as well .. should help solo pvp kick complain whiners too from "GAMING" the Q

    Post edited by kalina311 on
  • khandran#2092 khandran Member Posts: 67 Arc User
    Yep the OP sums it up. The irony is that even recently you get some BiS premaders blatantly saying there are not enough players to do private queue and until then they will play as they like even if that means stomp stomp stomp with their friends for 1000-0 matches. Time for the devs to introduce scrambling to the solo queue and say begone premades!

    I don 't agree on rewarding personal interest over team play though - at least not with capture the node type maps we have now. Team play is a must.
  • kalina311kalina311 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 2,082 Arc User
    edited October 2017
    YOu dont get sarcasm much do when i said higher end pve player become the new "premade stomperS" by your definition ( high item level ) next mod making it moot.. and a invalid complaint ..

    also what do you imagine the average server item level to be on peoples main to be ?
    now you go on to complain that 8k level players will get stomped too with more people qing things will be better
    there will always be someone higher level then you but on average most people are now 8k-10k and with refining costs going down for mid level enchants in mod12b it will be easier to achieve that

    ya the match making system does not scramble properly not a higher level players fault

    there are many definitions of the word FARM
    /earning/ playing / wining/ getting glory .... you love to lump them all together dont you ..
    so anytime someone wins with good gear its a BAD thing right lol and they should feel ashamed of themselves .. not cryptics bad match making ... and because its so bad they should only q solo or use the private Q right ?


    farm def 1 ... a single win for the day (ad bonus )with a a strong 5 man team that disbands
    farm def 2 .... multiple wins for the day
    Farm def 3 playing for hours and hours and hours at a time in a row ..leaderboard boosting/ playing whatever you want to call it

    same thing with 2 or 3 man teams looking for other team ...
    same thing for 2 or 3 man team not looking for other team
    same thing for dozen other reason i can think of

    some of these people are arranging matches some are not some have limited time for the day / need the win
    for guild shards as well

    all I am confirming is people play for multiple reasons and people always cry foul premade farmers when they are out geared/
    in this case I said there might be more reasons more "premades are out " to use YOUR words not mine

    no amount of private matches is going to get you glory currency

    at what point is FARM a bad no no word with negative meaning ...the mod is comming to the close and EVERY BODY ON THE WHOLE SERVER NEEDS TO UMM FARM for glory/ win for optional new pvp gear next mod .. thats all i said and confirmed dude ...farming pvp climate changes from extreme perhaps uneeded excessive match quing (by your definition )to required match qing for new resources/ equipment ..
    / guild upgrades

    for me "farming" means player involvement//so yes players involved themselves in order to get glory next mod for pvp or even thier strongholds which can apply for any mod ..

    how would you recommend players non pug stomp farm glory then when a new mod is comming up ? and also not to be hypocrites (according to you )if they were taking a break for several mods due to pvp climate and had no glory .. and needs it to purchase gear to be relvant . or returning player comming back after many many mods they need to purchase gear with glory ..

    also if semi premades are forming then they also get 2-3 pugs on thier team that also get glory and a win no ?? were the pugs not farming too ?? what is the max item level for a pug exactly ?

    you are just like the type of person that complains about the games bad RNG and only tracks ever time they fail to use pres wards in a streak not the amount of times they win and get it in 1 shot

    same thing for pvp on the wining semi premade team there are 2 or 3 pugs that get rewards too no ??? GOTCHA
    do they want to hand thier rewards back cause thier team was "TOO STRONG" and or it was a 1 sided blowout

    maybe you should start quitting matches if you are on the winning team if you are ahead by 200 and not get your rewards then lol as protest

    surely a vet and experienced player such as you cant be on the losing team EVERY time ... unless somehow you are in fact sabotaging and contributing to loses ..which i doubt is the case ..... so you always Q solo ?
    Post edited by kalina311 on
  • andre#8369 andre Member Posts: 61 Arc User
    "- it was PvP guilds/ premade players who said that premades in mixed queue were not there for "stomping" but to meet other premades, and that if private queue/ premade queue was in place, the issue would be solved. Yet, you still find premades in mixed queue. This is a simple fact."


    Can I get a link to where literally every pvp guild/ premade player said this? Im not defending the pug stomping, just asking. :smile:
  • kalina311kalina311 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 2,082 Arc User
    edited October 2017

    "- it was PvP guilds/ premade players who said that premades in mixed queue were not there for "stomping" but to meet other premades, and that if private queue/ premade queue was in place, the issue would be solved. Yet, you still find premades in mixed queue. This is a simple fact."





    Can I get a link to where literally every pvp guild/ premade player said this? Im not defending the pug stomping, just asking. :smile:

    that was the bait to try and flush out the people he thought he was describing (a fictional large pvp diverse body that adovated for private Q exclusively as the magic solve all for pvp and will all banish themselves to private Q ) .. ,...lol these premades people that are left in the mixed Q must be exactly the ones that said their issues would be solved with a private Q .. and must be the ones that go in the forums and post .

    @pando83 I imagine you must have characters that are 12k-14k ... so the second it pairs you with a simaliar geared player in pvp ... are YOU not then the "Premade player that is stomping" for someone on the opposing teams perspective ?and by your example then ..

    wait why are you not using the private Q then cause since clearly you are going out pug stomping the second it pairs you with a higher item players .... the reason you are going to say is because you did not ask for it ??? the same thing that some premade players will say they did not ask for the private Q / should not be forced to use it in ways/reasons which you did /did not imagine to prove or disprove any of your biased points
    Post edited by kalina311 on
  • pando83pando83 Member Posts: 2,564 Arc User
    edited October 2017
    It's quite easy to see how i'm not pug-stomping: i'm with a different team every match.
    It's been said many times in the past that most premades in mixed Q were "not there to stomp, but to look for other premades to face". You want the exact posts, go look for them. It was one of the main arguments of the players saying premades in mixed Q were not an issue.

    Every player has the right to play the game the way he wants. I go solo Q. Other players go premade or semi-premade to pugstomp and farm PvP.
    I'm just here to point out, and thank you sir for confirming it, that premades in mixed Q are not there to "look for other premades", or to "play with friends", or for any challenge, but simply to farm PvP aka pugstomp. Which is exactly what has always happened in the past and what caused the current situation where nobody play PvP anymore except people who farm for SH or RAD.
    It's been said for years, but there's always been someone who defended such premades saying that premades were not the issue.
    I've also seen 2 of the players who wrote such things in the past, recently "farming" mixed queue with a semi-premade.
    So yeah, at least "some" of such players are the same. Others might not. But in the past, whoever said premades in mixed PvP were an issue, was treated as a noob or an idiot by people saying the above stuff.

    There's no biased opinion. Just facts. Facts are that PvP always suffered, and still suffers, from premades, and expecially premades of dedicated PvPers, farming it.
    And any move to prevent that (be it soloQ or something else) must be attempted.

  • grampyrulz#4209 grampyrulz Member Posts: 95 Arc User
    Trading caps to even out the score for rewards is just about as bad as blow out rewards. There could be more conditions than just overall score for rewards to be given. I will say a player that gets pushed all the way back to camp fire and then slaughtered 1000-0 has a less of a chance of wanting to come back than a player that was allowed a few caps. Especially when the team that has them pinned says "1 v 1" and you see someone jump down and get smeared by the whole team. Now that isn't toxic at all.

    I don't believe that premades or semi-premades are the only problem in PvP by any means. I find it hard to believe so many on PS4 keep playing the same 5v5 dom matches, on the same two maps, over and over, all day long. Kinda like having only one campaign to PvE in for a few years. That would be fun.

    Team size. Why rewards only for 5v5 dom matches? I would love to try 10v10, but queue never pops. I imagine that it is better/easier to balance, but can't have much of an opinion if I've never been there. And here again, a persistent map that you could join in to, and see the names, class, IL of all ppl playing could save A LOT of wasted time. Everyone can tell when a match is lopsided. A team could ask for a switch after a one-sided victory/loss. No switch? Leave with no penalty to find better players. And, of course, any rewards from such matches would have be conditional.

    I do hope that changes keep happening for PvP. Maybe population will rise, maybe match making can be resolved in all types of queues. Maybe we will get a ton of new maps and something other than domination. Maybe Grammy will PvP with Grampy. But if you keep handing out rewards for 1000-0 matches with a whole lot of kills on one side and a whole lot of deaths on the other I don't think "pug stomping" will go away.

    It is easier to change a rule or condition than it is to change a mindset. I have seen the pugs on partial premades smell blood/weakness and partake in the stomping. It's really kinda disgusting to me, and I wouldn't have a problem leaving in protest as suggested, if there were no time penalty for leaving a match. Currency can be gotten back, but you never get time back.
  • trgluestickztrgluestickz Member Posts: 1,144 Arc User
    edited October 2017
    I see partial truths scattered in what @pando83 has stated here though its missing a lot of nuance and he makes a lot of absolute claims that don't actually apply to 100% of premades or anything close to it.

    I agree though that premaders overall should do a lot more private que matches and premading into a public que with more than 2 people should be kept to a minimum considering how unbalanced PVP is at the moment.

    Here is my personal background on premading if you wish to see my own motives and some nuance:

    I was an oportunistic premader before private que was introduced, meaning I usually would go with a freind or alone but occationally I'd do a 5 man if there was one avalable. I have taken a temporary break from PVP to work on my character and offer more forum feedback. I haven't done much PVP since private que and the new SOD buff was introduced.

    Some of the premades I did were que syncs where 2 premades would coordinate with eachother via TS to try and get into the same match as eachother. This process usually took between 30 minutes and 2 hours. These sync matches did not get organised that often compared to other kinds of matches owing to how much of a pain they were to set up.
    This shortage of pre vs pre matches was further amplified by how boring these matches were in most cases. The very dullest pre vs pre matches I can name took place before mod 10 weapons were introduced as well as any match with more than one support class/healer per team. This is because those matches have virtually no deaths and play out more like a tacky board game for the elderly than an action packed PVP match. My respects to anyone who mangages to stay awake in such matches.

    Many of the 5 man premades I did were using search to see if there were any premades about and then we'd attempt to snipe them. Other matches I was in did not have a specific premade in mind we were trying to stalk and we would just play through a few matches hoping to get a challenging match.
    In the majority of 5 man matches I can recall, we weren't looking for weak players to squash, we were hunting for good matches and would put up with easier matches before scoring a good match because it was faster than que syncing.

    There are admittidly some premade teams I joined that were probably formed for the reasons @pando83 discribed though its hard to tell for all of these. On a couple of these, I'm 99% sure it was leaderboard farming, habbit, lazyness, and fear of losing driving my teamates to form these premades.
    On my end, I can name some times where my mind was done for the day and I would jump into a pre hoping for an easier match or 2 before calling it quits for the night. I think it was me not actually wanting to go to sleep yet but not having enough energy left to want to go do anything hard.

    However, I'm fairly certain glory farming/AD did not play a significant role in the premade matches I was in. If someone uses this as an excuse to premade they are either lieing or you are witnissing a rare scenario.
    The reason for this is simple, premaders of the caliber discribed here do not need glory and the measly sum of AD they can get from PVP is not worth their time. The only thing worth buying with glory more than once is healing pots or dumping it into a guild coffer. The conversion rate for glory to guild marks is terrible and its easy to hit the coffer cap from natural play. When players lose a match, most teams will let you gg and cap for points so you rarely get a match where you get no glory. Its conquerer's shards that are more of a consern and its likely that not all premaders know that they can win icewind dale PVP matches to complete the daily shard quest.

    I do have one personality quirk that many of the other premaders I have qued with don't have as far as I am able to tell. Many of them don't enjoy killing weak pugs at all that I can see and I know several of them that directly said they don't enjoy it and just feel pity for the pugs. I also know many PVPers who are bored out of their skull by this game in general and only stick around because of them wanting to interact with guildmates, these sorts have little to no motivation left in them for PVP matches but will do them anyway for the interaction time.
    In my specific case, I have retained some of my old motivation for this game. There is also a primitive bit in the back of my mind that makes me want to go on a kill rampage and I enjoy any kill to some degree. That doesn't mean that I specificially look for easy targets and I seem to enjoy harder fights even more, they are just much harder to come by in the public que and shrinking PVP population so I take what I can get as an opportunist. Dueling has gotten me my best fights by far since I can have a fight that is both hard AND be physically able to kill more players without piercing damage or requiring help from teammates. I am also not tied down playing as everyone else's CB/CC companion in a duel.
    I get annoyed when matches end early though will still follow gg etiquette even though I almost never actually want to stop. I tend to only accept an in match dual if I think we have enough time to finish it, though there often isn't enough time so I don't always bother to ask. There have also been numerous situations where the entire team that got squashed has no strong players on it so any dual I try to start would not be a fair match up. I'm considering creating loadouts for several different item levels so I can fight more people 1vs1.
    Post edited by trgluestickz on
    --
    PVP Rogue,
    --[----- "Your friendly neighborhood spawn of Satan." -----]--
    ----------------------------------------------------------------
    Main Character: Hurricane Marigolds (Rogue WK & Assassin)
    Ingame Handle: trgluestickz
    Discord Name: Hurricane🌀Marigolds#2563
    Guilds: She Looked LVL 18 & Essence of Aggression
    Alliances: Imperium & Order of the Silent Shroud
    Platform: PC
  • andre#8369 andre Member Posts: 61 Arc User
    Couldn't find where every pvp guild and premade player said private q would stop this :tongue: help me out?
  • kalina311kalina311 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 2,082 Arc User
    edited October 2017
    @pando83 said


    "It's been said many times in the past that most premades in mixed Q were "not there to stomp, but to look for other premades to face". You want the exact posts, go look for them. It was one of the main arguments of the players saying premades in mixed Q were not an issue."

    YOU are making the "claims" the burden of proof IS on you Bro

    Why would I look up quotes (that dont exist ) to help in NOT supporting my argument lol you need to look up quotes (that you claim exist ) to support yours

    You are the one that opened the thread with your claims and now you dont want to back them up by facts and quotes from noted pvp players and thier guilds ...

    if you do find them I will address it and change to target specifically those players / posts and try to put them in context

    also I could not find where you stated your item level either and if in fact you became the pug stomper if you were the second high level player on your team .. nor a dozen other points i said you failed to respond to ...

    Post edited by kalina311 on
  • kalina311kalina311 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 2,082 Arc User
    edited October 2017

    I see partial truths scattered in what @pando83 has stated here though its missing a lot of nuance and he makes a lot of absolute claims that don't actually apply to 100% of premades or anything close to it.

    I agree though that premaders overall should do a lot more private que matches and premading into a public que with more than 2 people should be kept to a minimum considering how unbalanced PVP is at the moment.

    Here is my personal background on premading if you wish to see my own motives and some nuance:

    I was an oportunistic premader before private que was introduced, meaning I usually would go with a freind or alone but occationally I'd do a 5 man if there was one avalable. I have taken a temporary break from PVP to work on my character and offer more forum feedback. I haven't done much PVP since private que and the new SOD buff was introduced.

    Some of the premades I did were que syncs where 2 premades would coordinate with eachother via TS to try and get into the same match as eachother. This process usually took between 30 minutes and 2 hours. These sync matches did not get organised that often compared to other kinds of matches owing to how much of a pain they were to set up.
    This shortage of pre vs pre matches was further amplified by how boring these matches were in most cases. The very dullest pre vs pre matches I can name took place before mod 10 weapons were introduced as well as any match with more than one support class/healer per team. This is because those matches have virtually no deaths and play out more like a tacky board game for the elderly than an action packed PVP match. My respects to anyone who mangages to stay awake in such matches.

    Many of the 5 man premades I did were using search to see if there were any premades about and then we'd attempt to snipe them. Other matches I was in did not have a specific premade in mind we were trying to stalk and we would just play through a few matches hoping to get a challenging match.
    In the majority of 5 man matches I can recall, we weren't looking for weak players to squash, we were hunting for good matches and would put up with easier matches before scoring a good match because it was faster than que syncing.

    There are admittidly some premade teams I joined that were probably formed for the reasons @pando83 discribed though its hard to tell for all of these. On a couple of these, I'm 99% sure it was leaderboard farming, habbit, lazyness, and fear of losing driving my teamates to form these premades.
    On my end, I can name some times where my mind was done for the day and I would jump into a pre hoping for an easier match or 2 before calling it quits for the night. I think it was me not actually wanting to go to sleep yet but not having enough energy left to want to go do anything hard.

    However, I'm fairly certain glory farming/AD did not play a significant role in the premade matches I was in. If someone uses this as an excuse to premade they are either lieing or you are witnissing a rare scenario.
    The reason for this is simple, premaders of the caliber discribed here do not need glory and the measly sum of AD they can get from PVP is not worth their time. The only thing worth buying with glory more than once is healing pots or dumping it into a guild coffer. The conversion rate for glory to guild marks is terrible and its easy to hit the coffer cap from natural play. When players lose a match, most teams will let you gg and cap for points so you rarely get a match where you get no glory. Its conquerer's shards that are more of a consern and its likely that not all premaders know that they can win icewind dale PVP matches to complete the daily shard quest.

    I do have one personality quirk that many of the other premaders I have qued with don't have as far as I am able to tell. Many of them don't enjoy killing weak pugs at all that I can see and I know several of them that directly said they don't enjoy it and just feel pity for the pugs. I also know many PVPers who are bored out of their skull by this game in general and only stick around because of them wanting to interact with guildmates, these sorts have little to no motivation left in them for PVP matches but will do them anyway for the interaction time.
    In my specific case, I have retained some of my old motivation for this game. There is also a primitive bit in the back of my mind that makes me want to go on a kill rampage and I enjoy any kill to some degree. That doesn't mean that I specificially look for easy targets and I seem to enjoy harder fights even more, they are just much harder to come by in the public que and shrinking PVP population so I take what I can get as an opportunist. Dueling has gotten me my best fights by far since I can have a fight that is both hard AND be physically able to kill more players without piercing damage or requiring help from teammates. I am also not tied down playing as everyone else's CB/CC companion in a duel.
    I get annoyed when matches end early though will still follow gg etiquette even though I almost never actually want to stop. I tend to only accept an in match dual if I think we have enough time to finish it, though there often isn't enough time so I don't always bother to ask. There have also been numerous situations where the entire team that got squashed has no strong players on it so any dual I try to start would not be a fair match up. I'm considering creating loadouts for several different item levels so I can fight more people 1vs1.

    good post more comming later ,,, im at work ...
    one point glory was also used to buy feeder artifacts with power union and stability ... and saved tons of ads for upgrading ..

    and glory boosters are helpful to limit the time you need to grind out pvp gear or artifacts

    summons @CLONKYO1 to comment on the whole thread
    Post edited by kalina311 on
  • ravenskyaravenskya Member Posts: 1,891 Arc User
    Do away with the leaderboard

    Oh and then how about just making skills separate - give everyone a straight up PVP loadout and have the skill trees read specifially for PVP when using that loadout. That way people who are primarily PVE focused can at least consider going into PVP with at least a pvp loadout without having to hose up their PVE spec. And that way the devs could monkey around with balancing the PVP skills without doing these godawful PVE nerfs to everyone.

    Either way 3 of us PVE people have been going into PVP on PS4 every night trying to get shards. We encounter the same 4 groups of people. I know them by name now. We are fairly certain they are the only people who PVP other than the random few who wander in there for shards and encounter them. They are the reason people don't go back into PVP. Because it's not a good time unless that's really what you are about, and if that's what you are about you are probably already in there wondering why the rest of us won't go in. It's a miserable experience.

    I hop down off the ledge and am instantly stunlocked while being hit by 5 freakin lions. How is that fun for anyone? I mean you have to be a royal HAMSTER to make that your entertainment for the evening.
    Founding Member of "Wrong Side of the Stronghold"
    Ravenskya - TR / Krisha Chaos - OP / Waffles - GF / Dex Domitor - HR
    Becky the trendy GWF - GWF / Too Toasty - SW / Falcor - DC / Morrigan - CW / Sir Didymus - OP

  • kalina311kalina311 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 2,082 Arc User
    edited October 2017
    ravenskya said:

    Do away with the leaderboard

    Oh and then how about just making skills separate - give everyone a straight up PVP loadout and have the skill trees read specifially for PVP when using that loadout. That way people who are primarily PVE focused can at least consider going into PVP with at least a pvp loadout without having to hose up their PVE spec. And that way the devs could monkey around with balancing the PVP skills without doing these godawful PVE nerfs to everyone.

    Either way 3 of us PVE people have been going into PVP on PS4 every night trying to get shards. We encounter the same 4 groups of people. I know them by name now. We are fairly certain they are the only people who PVP other than the random few who wander in there for shards and encounter them. They are the reason people don't go back into PVP. Because it's not a good time unless that's really what you are about, and if that's what you are about you are probably already in there wondering why the rest of us won't go in. It's a miserable experience.

    I hop down off the ledge and am instantly stunlocked while being hit by 5 freakin lions. How is that fun for anyone? I mean you have to be a royal HAMSTER to make that your entertainment for the evening.

    I already suggested default pvp loadouts many mods ago in order to lock item / gear levels ... we got /dual /multispecs at campfire instead as a compromise .. this does not help the clueless tho or people with no build insight ../ lacking power points .


    the old complaint was no tenacity on gear / I dont have room / dont want to grind . that has been taking care of by giving everyone the same base tenacity

    old complaint pve build was different / vs pvp due to having HIGH CRIT .. and crit doing less damage in pvp ... no longer the case either ,.,.formulas has been fixed for next mod

    old complaint I need so much more armor pen in pvp then pve (new pve content requires 85% ri anyways now )... now you can chose to add more to penetrate higher dr classes .. or have higher crit to compensate now that that armor pen resist has been adjusted as well and needing to stack a lot more to be effective .. or overstacking it against certain classes ( no longer working ) and being wastefull ..
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