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PVP community's opinions on CC

pjohnny1pjohnny1 Member Posts: 89 Arc User
I want to see what people think of CC before 12b drops . Do you think it is fine the way it is ? Do you think it is too much and should be toned down ?
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  • pjohnny1pjohnny1 Member Posts: 89 Arc User
    I figured since I asked the question I should state a opinion. I think there is way to much cc spam . I am talking about daze , stun , frozen , prone pretty much the complete loss cc . Just takes out all stategy of gameplay to me . Always liked how a well timed cc was a deciding factor in a duel/match in this type of game .
  • trgluestickztrgluestickz Member Posts: 1,144 Arc User
    edited September 2017
    Curently, there is too much CC in PVP.

    Most CC powers are fine mechanicwise right now. What causes there to be too much CC in PVP is usually not the powers themselves but how often they can be used. The maximum amount of recovery/AP gain you can have has grown a lot over the years and has made it so you can use CC powers way too frequently.

    A systematic overhaul to recovery/AP gain would solve most CC related issues and prevent new CC issues from comming into existance. It also would tackle issues with daily power overuse, an issue that is closely tied in with CC issues and affects multaple classes.

    Going in and nerfing individual powers and applying cooldowns to certain daily powers would help some with CC issues in PVP. It does have drawbacks in that its less thorough than a systemwide overhaul and does not do much to prevent future CC issues from springing up. Overall, a systemwide recovery/AP gain overhaul is superior to individual nerfs and cooldowns though this idea would still be better than nothing.

    Another popular idea for reducing CC spam in PVP is for a CC diminishing returns system to be implemented. The devs are going to implement this idea but last I checked, their version of it was not well thought out and would be a disaster if it went live as is. It needs to be tweaked before it hits live but has some good potential. The main downside to a properly tooned diminshing returns system is that it won't effect courage breaker, one of the most complained about CC powers in PVP. CB goes through all control resistances/immunities and would be unaffected by CC diminishing returns.
    --
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    --[----- "Your friendly neighborhood spawn of Satan." -----]--
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    Main Character: Hurricane Marigolds (Rogue WK & Assassin)
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  • demonmongerdemonmonger Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 3,350 Arc User
    Why destroy what a person has invested much time effort and money into building... no nerfs.. cc is fine
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  • demonmongerdemonmonger Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 3,350 Arc User
    edited September 2017
    Without cc it all boils down to who has the most power and critical with a bit of recovery..... maybe deflection power as well... this is d&d not snowflake villa
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  • theguiidotheguiido Member Posts: 467 Arc User
    edited September 2017
    It is much needed obviously. There is no skill in spamming powers that CC people every 2 seconds. It's not even PvP. I can't even begin to tell you the amount of harassment you get in PvP as a GF. CC should be used in key situations to either throw off the opponent, or to be used in situations where you can gain an advantage on a target to turn the tide of battle. I have a few issues with this though that I think the developers need to really consider.

    First off, the main thing that I have been hearing is that Trapper HR's and Oppressor CW's are useless with this 12b update. They aren't wrong. Since I heard about this people who are affected by it are playing the game less, are thinking about quitting or are forced to go to a completely different Paragon Path. Which we all know, there is only 1 viable path for PvP for each class. (Besides the Paladin)

    Trappers will be forced to go to Combat, and Oppressor's will be forced to go to Renegade. It is not right to completely wipe a whole paragon path. People should not be forced to go 1 path. ESPECIALLY in PvP.

    So the question is what can be done?

    I think lowering it from 15 second Control Resist to a 10 second Control Resist will be a pretty nice change. It will be high enough to stop the absurd uptime on people spamming CC, but also be low enough for people looking to pull off CC that can impact it tremendously in a game, and make a huge shift in play. Thats what CC SHOULD be.

    Secondly, Tackling the non viability of certain paragon paths, (for this instance) Trapper, and Oppressor, I think in general they need an overhaul when in the presence of PvP. Trapper in PvE has some phenomenal damage and although I don't think it needs any changes in PvE, it does need a large overhaul for how it affects PvP. Same with the Control Wizard, except that Oppressor in PvE is not viable, and Oppressor in PvP is not viable. Now I do agree CW's have (CONTROL) in there name, they should be able to control, but Control Wizards get there CC off mainly with dailies, not as much with encounters in PvE. Who do you know uses a repel on a single mob. In fact, most CW's don't even "control" in PvE, they are either Thaumaturge or Renegade. Focused on doing damage or focused on buffing teammates and debuffing enemies. I could go on and on, so here is what should happen. 5/8 classes have control in their roles and the thing is most of the time they aren't used as controllers at all. A great example of this is a GF Tactician is believed to be a buff tank, and rightfully so, it provides some okay buffs. But the description simply does not match it's path, there is no control nor should there be in a buff/ support path. Another example is on the Control Wizard like I mentioned above, no one that I have ever met uses Oppressor in PvE. It's considered a joke actually to the CW's I talk to.

    After 12.5 is finished, work on every class to make sure player power bugs are fixed, and to make every feat, and power updated, replaced, and viable. First starting with the Control Wizard as it never had a Class Rework, and then the HR as yes powers did get reworked, but Archer is simply not viable in PvP, and neither is Trapper. They should be fixed first. The HR rework was not fully developed, the side effects of the GF rework affected the GWF, The GF did not get fully reworked or were the powers/feats fixed, GWF has yet to get a rework, OP, DC, SW, TR have yet to get a rework. SW, GF, and HR all got various nerfs, reworks, and changes, and some of it was good, a lot of it (SW, GF) was bad. It was rushed and simply did not cater to all 3 of the classes at the time.

    My point is, every class in this game even the ones who got a partial one still need a rework, every single one of them. Feats need to be changed, and updated. Powers need to be updated and changed. Also how PvE moves are affected in PvP like HR's, CW's, and TR's post CC diminishing returns.

    I appreciate the class changes every now and then in the patch notes, but thats not the answer. Work on multiple classes at the same time dedicated to a whole module. Players would much rather see what is fixed currently, than have new things added. Or incorporate some sort of rework to classes while new content is being added. Thats what I think.

    @rgutscheradev @asterdahl @sgrantdev#8718 any info if we will see something like this? I know something like this was happening with player power bugs like Robert said on Reddit, but what about feat reworks, description changes and power reworks as well?
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  • trgluestickztrgluestickz Member Posts: 1,144 Arc User
    edited September 2017

    Why destroy what a person has invested much time effort and money into building... no nerfs.. cc is fine

    For the record, I am not interested in completly destroying CC viability, I think its a fun gameplay option and you should be able to specilize in it. I have played the scoundrel TR tree since mod 8, which is designed to specilize in control so its not like I suddenly want all CCs to be useless.
    CC spam does however need to be reduced so perma CC is no longer a thing.

    Also, I am aware you have been negativly affected by Cryptic's changes to items/game mechanics before and it was an expensive loss from what I have heard you say on the forums. I have also had to switch out items/change my build over the years owing to changes, which was not cheep for me either. But here is the thing, you can't have a balanced game and keep all of the broken stuff Cryptic has ever sold to players the same forever. It's inconveinant when an item/build aspect you invested in gets changed and modifying things people payed for should be a last resort fix instead of the cash grab Cryptic often uses it for instead. But there does come a point when the players need to be able to let go of some of their earnings to allow the game to improve. I'm all for fair compensation when possible but Neverwinter has way too much powercreep right now and needs to cut back. It would certainly make for a better game and more fun for everyone in the long run for Cryptic to make a serious attempt at reducing powercreep. It would make balancing content much easier for the devs too since it reduces the number of variables they have to skirt around.
    I have heard you complain over and over again about how bad the state of the game is but I frequently see you clinging to things that are making this game worse for everyone including you, perma cc being just the latest thing.

    The whole buff instead of nerf idea I have seen you on board with is a good tool for the toolbox but I don't think it is applicable for 100% of situations.
    --
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    --[----- "Your friendly neighborhood spawn of Satan." -----]--
    ----------------------------------------------------------------
    Main Character: Hurricane Marigolds (Rogue WK & Assassin)
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    Discord Name: Hurricane🌀Marigolds#2563
    Guilds: She Looked LVL 18 & Essence of Aggression
    Alliances: Imperium & Order of the Silent Shroud
    Platform: PC
  • trgluestickztrgluestickz Member Posts: 1,144 Arc User
    edited September 2017
    theguiido said:


    After 12.5 is finished, work on every class to make sure player power bugs are fixed, and to make every feat, and power updated, replaced, and viable. First starting with the Control Wizard as it never had a Class Rework, and then the HR as yes powers did get reworked, but Archer is simply not viable in PvP, and neither is Trapper. They should be fixed first. The HR rework was not fully developed, the side effects of the GF rework affected the GWF, The GF did not get fully reworked or were the powers/feats fixed, GWF has yet to get a rework, OP, DC, SW, TR have yet to get a rework. SW, GF, and HR all got various nerfs, reworks, and changes, and some of it was good, a lot of it (SW, GF) was bad. It was rushed and simply did not cater to all 3 of the classes at the time.

    My point is, every class in this game even the ones who got a partial one still need a rework, every single one of them. Feats need to be changed, and updated. Powers need to be updated and changed. Also how PvE moves are affected in PvP like HR's, CW's, and TR's post CC diminishing returns.

    I appreciate the class changes every now and then in the patch notes, but thats not the answer. Work on multiple classes at the same time dedicated to a whole module. Players would much rather see what is fixed currently, than have new things added. Or incorporate some sort of rework to classes while new content is being added. Thats what I think.

    If the devs went with your idea of dedicating most of a module to class reworks, I'd rather them bite the bullet and overhaul everybody at once. Everybody should be "first" under your sugestion. That's an intimidating consept and it means the devs will not be able to release many other improvments for said module, but I agree with you that the dev's approach of a little fix here and a little fix there has failed miserably. They have been at it for quite some time now and its not like they ever tried overhauling every class at once in the past. They are playing a hopeless game of whackamole and have been for years, its time they tried something else.

    Granted, I would want to see the devs set up feedback threads months ahead of time for each class so that players can help them refine all class changes before they actually go live. For a change as massive as this, there should be no suprizes involved.
    That would go a long way towards making a mass class rebalance less intimidating and prevent the devs from breaking any classes. It would also reduce player panic provided the devs make it clear that whatever they first post is not a final draft and feedback will be used to refine each change before it hits live.

    I will mention that TR has the scoundrel feat tree. It has been the weakest TR feat tree for as long as I can remember but it was still usable in PVP at least. The CC diminishing returns system in its current form will render this tree completly unviable and I will finally be forced to change trees. The more popular sabotuer TR feat tree is also not going to be viable next mod since people were using it for the CC meta and its damage can't compete with the TR executioner tree in PVP thanks to the recent SOD change.
    If the devs tried to keep doing one partial or full class rework at a time, TR should be either next in line or very high priority. Maybe they should rework all control specs at once if they can't go with all classes at the same time.
    Post edited by trgluestickz on
    --
    PVP Rogue,
    --[----- "Your friendly neighborhood spawn of Satan." -----]--
    ----------------------------------------------------------------
    Main Character: Hurricane Marigolds (Rogue WK & Assassin)
    Ingame Handle: trgluestickz
    Discord Name: Hurricane🌀Marigolds#2563
    Guilds: She Looked LVL 18 & Essence of Aggression
    Alliances: Imperium & Order of the Silent Shroud
    Platform: PC
  • mamalion1234mamalion1234 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 3,388 Arc User
    edited September 2017
    hunters and paladins invest nothing to do their perma thing . THose are a problem since their cc is unable to avoid it compare to an opressor.
  • pjohnny1pjohnny1 Member Posts: 89 Arc User
    edited September 2017

    Why destroy what a person has invested much time effort and money into building... no nerfs.. cc is fine

    This is an opinion thread so I respect yours but don't agree with it . I would happily sacrifice all the time money and effort for a more fun satisfying game . I rather win 1 out 100 because I out played my opponent than winning 1000 in a row do to broken mechanics and ccing them to death . This is just me and obviously not everyone prefers it this way .
    Post edited by pjohnny1 on
  • pjohnny1pjohnny1 Member Posts: 89 Arc User
    edited September 2017

    Without cc it all boils down to who has the most power and critical with a bit of recovery..... maybe deflection power as well... this is d&d not snowflake villa

    Isn't it already about who has the most power , crit , and recovery , you just forgot to mention your cced while they use the power , crit , and recovery to kill you. Talking about defection would be a discussion all its own.

    I believe your referring to WoW when you say vanilla . Didn't play that game so can't say much about it . I do know they have cc dimishing returns and balance their classes for pvp since they do have competitive pvp that is actually ranked.

    Post edited by pjohnny1 on
  • pjohnny1pjohnny1 Member Posts: 89 Arc User
    theguiido said:

    It is much needed obviously. There is no skill in spamming powers that CC people every 2 seconds. It's not even PvP. I can't even begin to tell you the amount of harassment you get in PvP as a GF. CC should be used in key situations to either throw off the opponent, or to be used in situations where you can gain an advantage on a target to turn the tide of battle. I have a few issues with this though that I think the developers need to really consider.

    First off, the main thing that I have been hearing is that Trapper HR's and Oppressor CW's are useless with this 12b update. They aren't wrong. Since I heard about this people who are affected by it are playing the game less, are thinking about quitting or are forced to go to a completely different Paragon Path. Which we all know, there is only 1 viable path for PvP for each class. (Besides the Paladin)

    Trappers will be forced to go to Combat, and Oppressor's will be forced to go to Renegade. It is not right to completely wipe a whole paragon path. People should not be forced to go 1 path. ESPECIALLY in PvP.

    So the question is what can be done?

    I think lowering it from 15 second Control Resist to a 10 second Control Resist will be a pretty nice change. It will be high enough to stop the absurd uptime on people spamming CC, but also be low enough for people looking to pull off CC that can impact it tremendously in a game, and make a huge shift in play. Thats what CC SHOULD be.

    Secondly, Tackling the non viability of certain paragon paths, (for this instance) Trapper, and Oppressor, I think in general they need an overhaul when in the presence of PvP. Trapper in PvE has some phenomenal damage and although I don't think it needs any changes in PvE, it does need a large overhaul for how it affects PvP. Same with the Control Wizard, except that Oppressor in PvE is not viable, and Oppressor in PvP is not viable. Now I do agree CW's have (CONTROL) in there name, they should be able to control, but Control Wizards get there CC off mainly with dailies, not as much with encounters in PvE. Who do you know uses a repel on a single mob. In fact, most CW's don't even "control" in PvE, they are either Thaumaturge or Renegade. Focused on doing damage or focused on buffing teammates and debuffing enemies. I could go on and on, so here is what should happen. 5/8 classes have control in their roles and the thing is most of the time they aren't used as controllers at all. A great example of this is a GF Tactician is believed to be a buff tank, and rightfully so, it provides some okay buffs. But the description simply does not match it's path, there is no control nor should there be in a buff/ support path. Another example is on the Control Wizard like I mentioned above, no one that I have ever met uses Oppressor in PvE. It's considered a joke actually to the CW's I talk to.

    After 12.5 is finished, work on every class to make sure player power bugs are fixed, and to make every feat, and power updated, replaced, and viable. First starting with the Control Wizard as it never had a Class Rework, and then the HR as yes powers did get reworked, but Archer is simply not viable in PvP, and neither is Trapper. They should be fixed first. The HR rework was not fully developed, the side effects of the GF rework affected the GWF, The GF did not get fully reworked or were the powers/feats fixed, GWF has yet to get a rework, OP, DC, SW, TR have yet to get a rework. SW, GF, and HR all got various nerfs, reworks, and changes, and some of it was good, a lot of it (SW, GF) was bad. It was rushed and simply did not cater to all 3 of the classes at the time.

    My point is, every class in this game even the ones who got a partial one still need a rework, every single one of them. Feats need to be changed, and updated. Powers need to be updated and changed. Also how PvE moves are affected in PvP like HR's, CW's, and TR's post CC diminishing returns.

    I appreciate the class changes every now and then in the patch notes, but thats not the answer. Work on multiple classes at the same time dedicated to a whole module. Players would much rather see what is fixed currently, than have new things added. Or incorporate some sort of rework to classes while new content is being added. Thats what I think.

    @rgutscheradev @asterdahl @sgrantdev#8718 any info if we will see something like this? I know something like this was happening with player power bugs like Robert said on Reddit, but what about feat reworks, description changes and power reworks as well?

    I can't really say to much about class balancing because I just don't know enough about each classes feats/powers . I am aware that most issues have been around for a good while .

    I agree all paragon paths should be viable but don't think that is likely to happen . Every mmo I have played with a paragon/soul path you can play had balancing issues. It would be great if they did fix them but not holding my breath on it .

    Definitely think 15 second immunity is way too long . Personally think of cc in 2 categories , hard and soft . Hard cc being anything that incapacitates you and causes complete loss of control. Soft cc being slows , roots and what not , you can still fight back basically. Soft should be shorter immunity or melee will have a hard time catching ranged and ranged won't keep away from melee.

    Now the problem with HR trapper an CW oppressor could be fixed with a hard and soft immunity system. They would still be able to control but not the same way they can permanently cc someone as it is right now.
  • demonmongerdemonmonger Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 3,350 Arc User
    Again this is not the right way to handle cc in the game. People have spent years on improving their characters, each update adding more in the stat that they chose. This is unacceptable.

    I'm tired of the games vision changing everytime we get a new set of developers. We have been out of beta mode for years so drastic ge overhauls should not be taking place.

    On the note of control wizards and cc (mainly oppressor) everything you do is about cc in pvp, from lifting your opponent to freezing or pushing your opponent. The moment someone becomes immune to cc for an extended time - you are dead.

    For those of you saying I defend nerfs when nerds are needed. You are wrong. I defend what needs to be defended for reasons you cannot begin to claim to comprehend. Are you in my head? Do you know my logic?

    I said villa not vanilla... villa is like saying town.

    It's time some of you stand for something and stop falling for everything.

    I state again. If a person has added enough recovery to spam a certain power let them be. If they bought a mount or artifact to let thme use a certain power more frequently, let them be. This was the beauty of neverwinter, we crafted our character to be whatever we desired. That is also the beauty of d&d, as your imagination controls the output of the game.

    Cc deminishing returns has not ever played a role in neverwinter, and I am sure most of us would not have invested so heavily in certain areas of the game we loved was going to be dumbed down to connect four, or checkers. I like chess, and in chess if the queen kills pieces it does not get deminishing returns or restrictions on movement in direction or spaces. If you want to add this cc deminishing return bit to this game, you might as well add a cap of power damage bonus, deflection, critical % chance, and all other stats so that we all are equally locked at 2000 points max in pvp.

    What you are doing to cc is wrong, I enjoy knowing that if I mess up I will be killed. Or even yet if I play hard and don't mess up I have a high chance of being killed.

    I am tired of this easy button for those that lack the vision or desire to improve their characters in ways to quell attacks from others.

    If you hate cc, buy elven enchantment - it is as simple as that.

    If these changes come through and many others are seriously through with this company the producers and the devs that have to be forced like mindless drones to do the Queens bidding.

    You have lost my trust time and time again with how the game has been managed and changed.
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  • demonmongerdemonmonger Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 3,350 Arc User
    I let go of my earnings and investments each time we get new sets of artifact weapons or better enchantments. I should.not have to let go of certain aspects of my character that are not related to items but instead game mechsnics.

    That's bullcrap and you know it.
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  • jaime4312#3760 jaime4312 Member Posts: 844 Arc User
    edited September 2017
    Trolling people with perma cc builds may be fun for those who run them but not at all for those who are on the receiving end and rightly so. Pvp should be about killing when it matters and rotating properly instead of which team is better at cc trolling. It is player vs player not trolling vs trolling.

    Perma cc builds are one of the most if not the most toxic thing in pvp and it is good to know they will be put in their place in mod 12b (except perma Courage Breaker which even with the "nerf" will still be possible to high level TR)
  • demonmongerdemonmonger Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 3,350 Arc User
    edited September 2017
    > @jaime4312#3760 said:
    > Trolling people with perma cc builds may be fun for those who run them but not at all for those who are on the receiving end and rightly so. Pvp should be about killing when it matters and rotating properly instead of which team is better at cc trolling. It is player vs player not trolling vs trolling.
    >
    > Perma cc builds are one of the most if not the most toxic thing in pvp and it is good to know they will be put in their place in mod 12b (except perma Courage Breaker which even with the "nerf" will still be possible to high level TR)

    What gets me is this. High level tr won't be effected at all by any of these changes. Courage breaker gets cut in half no problem can recast in 5 seconds.

    This change must not happen....
    Cc is part of pvp and tactics. We don't all have gf trolling damage bro.
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  • jonkocajonkoca Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 2,586 Arc User
    Die cc. die.

    Is my considered opinion.
    No idea what my toon is now.
  • pjohnny1pjohnny1 Member Posts: 89 Arc User

    I let go of my earnings and investments each time we get new sets of artifact weapons or better enchantments. I should.not have to let go of certain aspects of my character that are not related to items but instead game mechsnics.



    That's bullcrap and you know it.

    What are you going to do when a reset comes ? You think they will keep the cap at 70 forever ? You think they are going to keep all the gear you have now viable ? MMO's are progression based without it people get bored and leave . This company is here to make money so you can bet that a cap and gear change will come . Without the carrot the donkey doesn't move .
  • pjohnny1pjohnny1 Member Posts: 89 Arc User
    obekpl said:

    Ofcourse these changes are hitting mainly 2 classes- Control wizard and Trapper HR. You won't see any oppressor and trapper in mod 12b also any other control powers from cw will vanish- ther will be only DPS. Really sad move...

    It will affect all classes not just those 2 . From what I have read they are still tweaking the new cc system . So might turn out they are just as viable they will just have to pay attention to immunities of their opponents.
  • trgluestickztrgluestickz Member Posts: 1,144 Arc User
    edited September 2017

    Trolling people with perma cc builds may be fun for those who run them but not at all for those who are on the receiving end and rightly so. Pvp should be about killing when it matters and rotating properly instead of which team is better at cc trolling. It is player vs player not trolling vs trolling.

    Perma cc builds are one of the most if not the most toxic thing in pvp and it is good to know they will be put in their place in mod 12b (except perma Courage Breaker which even with the "nerf" will still be possible to high level TR)

    The problem with this new change "putting perma CC builds in their place" is it overnerfs CC in its current form. Its hard to tell if you approve of the CC change (besides CB) as is or if you simply mean perma CC builds will be ended and that part of this is good.
    If the new system is not tweaked sufficently, it will kill all CC specs for CW, TR, HR, and probably other builds I'm forgetting about. I agree that perma CC is a problem but the solution shouldn't be to wipe out CC builds completly, it should be to make it so CC is still a deadly weapon and a viable thing to specilize in but isn't abusuable to the point where you can perma CC people.
    pjohnny1 said:

    obekpl said:

    Ofcourse these changes are hitting mainly 2 classes- Control wizard and Trapper HR. You won't see any oppressor and trapper in mod 12b also any other control powers from cw will vanish- ther will be only DPS. Really sad move...

    It will affect all classes not just those 2 . From what I have read they are still tweaking the new cc system . So might turn out they are just as viable they will just have to pay attention to immunities of their opponents.
    I hope they do a good job tweaking the new system to the point where its actually viable, it's a disaster if it goes live as is.
    --
    PVP Rogue,
    --[----- "Your friendly neighborhood spawn of Satan." -----]--
    ----------------------------------------------------------------
    Main Character: Hurricane Marigolds (Rogue WK & Assassin)
    Ingame Handle: trgluestickz
    Discord Name: Hurricane🌀Marigolds#2563
    Guilds: She Looked LVL 18 & Essence of Aggression
    Alliances: Imperium & Order of the Silent Shroud
    Platform: PC
  • jaime4312#3760 jaime4312 Member Posts: 844 Arc User
    edited September 2017
    @demonmonger

    If something can be spammed it doesn't require many if any tactics like cc on live, just spam cc to perma control people. If you can perma CB someone there's not tactic there other than spamming that power on the helpless victim. As for "trolling damage", sorry but that's wrong, SoD hits very hard. On top of that there's CB, ItC and SB being super spammable so you get very high damage, very high survability and perma cc.
  • demonmongerdemonmonger Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 3,350 Arc User
    edited September 2017
    > @jaime4312#3760 said:
    > @demonmonger
    >
    > If something can be spammed it doesn't require many if any tactics like cc on live, just spam cc to perma control people. If you can perma CB someone there's not tactic there other than spamming that power on the helpless victim. As for "trolling damage", sorry but that's wrong, SoD hits very hard. On top of that there's CB, ItC and SB being super spammable so you get very high damage, very high survability and perma cc.

    You act like every trip is executioner with super recovery and cb.. everything is spammable

    When you are fighting players with 300k hp and 50k power.. and you have 100k hp and 25k power... how else can you win?
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  • trgluestickztrgluestickz Member Posts: 1,144 Arc User
    edited September 2017
    One other thing that has been on my mind is whether or not some CC powers could be safely buffed after these changes take place. This is of course assuming the new changes are properly tweaked and CB gets a better fix.
    I remember CWs saying that most of their CC powers besides ice knife and repel were HAMSTER in PVP.
    TR scoundrel tree CC feats are already very watered down in PVP along with several other neglected CC powers TRs don't use anymore.
    I heard from one of my Trapper HR freinds recently that Trapper CCs are very watered down right now too and they have trouble keeping up with CC builds in other classes.
    If the CC diminishing returns system and CB are sufficently tweaked, it may open the door to buffing underpreforming CC powers without causing an issue. As someone who wants to see all the unloved powers, paragon paths, and feat trees rise from the dead, this is something I'd love to see.
    --
    PVP Rogue,
    --[----- "Your friendly neighborhood spawn of Satan." -----]--
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    Main Character: Hurricane Marigolds (Rogue WK & Assassin)
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  • trgluestickztrgluestickz Member Posts: 1,144 Arc User
    edited September 2017

    @demonmonger

    If something can be spammed it doesn't require many if any tactics like cc on live, just spam cc to perma control people. If you can perma CB someone there's not tactic there other than spamming that power on the helpless victim. As for "trolling damage", sorry but that's wrong, SoD hits very hard. On top of that there's CB, ItC and SB being super spammable so you get very high damage, very high survability and perma cc.

    I agree that there isn't a whole lot of skill involved with spamming CC powers, its a fairly easy build to play for TR at least.

    It is to be noted however that TRs have really weak damage for everything but SOD. SOD being overbuffed is a recent development that needs to be undone and replaced with increases to damage that effect our at will powers and encounter powers. Without SOD and previously SE, TRs would hit like a wet noodle in PVP. This is already the case for 2 out of 3 TR feat trees.

    I will also mention that most TR survivability is comming from stat induced powercreep and has very little to do with the class itself. ITC, stealth, dodges, ect all need to be heavily enhanced by stats in order for us to be able to spam them and its spamming that leads to us having good survivability. Spamming is enabled by powercreep and other classes can also spam their abilities, its not just a TR thing. It is also is to be noted that any class can also stack tons of defensive stats to become ungodly tanky and many have powerful sources of added survivability TRs do not have (cleric heals, GF shield, ect). Some have an easier time with stacking defensive stats than others but I have seen unkillables in all classes and am not convinced that TRs stick out on this issue as much as people say they do.
    --
    PVP Rogue,
    --[----- "Your friendly neighborhood spawn of Satan." -----]--
    ----------------------------------------------------------------
    Main Character: Hurricane Marigolds (Rogue WK & Assassin)
    Ingame Handle: trgluestickz
    Discord Name: Hurricane🌀Marigolds#2563
    Guilds: She Looked LVL 18 & Essence of Aggression
    Alliances: Imperium & Order of the Silent Shroud
    Platform: PC
  • demonmongerdemonmonger Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 3,350 Arc User
    > @pjohnny1 said:
    > I let go of my earnings and investments each time we get new sets of artifact weapons or better enchantments. I should.not have to let go of certain aspects of my character that are not related to items but instead game mechsnics.
    >
    >
    >
    > That's bullcrap and you know it.
    >
    > What are you going to do when a reset comes ? You think they will keep the cap at 70 forever ? You think they are going to keep all the gear you have now viable ? MMO's are progression based without it people get bored and leave . This company is here to make money so you can bet that a cap and gear change will come . Without the carrot the donkey doesn't move .

    I said gear changes but mechanics shouldnt...
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  • trgluestickztrgluestickz Member Posts: 1,144 Arc User

    > @pjohnny1 said:

    > I let go of my earnings and investments each time we get new sets of artifact weapons or better enchantments. I should.not have to let go of certain aspects of my character that are not related to items but instead game mechsnics.

    >

    >

    >

    > That's bullcrap and you know it.

    >

    > What are you going to do when a reset comes ? You think they will keep the cap at 70 forever ? You think they are going to keep all the gear you have now viable ? MMO's are progression based without it people get bored and leave . This company is here to make money so you can bet that a cap and gear change will come . Without the carrot the donkey doesn't move .



    I said gear changes but mechanics shouldnt...

    I see no reason to keep mechanics the same as they are now in all cases, they should be on the table for improvement just like items and I'm not oposed to adding new mechanics. Items are also not entirely seperate from mechanics since some gear items include mechanics themselves and items also heavily enhance other mechanics via added stats.
    Also, if you don't trust Cryptic to do a good job maintaining this game, why would you trust them to get the mechanics already in place right in the first place? You yourself have supported other forms of mechanic changes, such as a change to stealth you proposed a while back.
    --
    PVP Rogue,
    --[----- "Your friendly neighborhood spawn of Satan." -----]--
    ----------------------------------------------------------------
    Main Character: Hurricane Marigolds (Rogue WK & Assassin)
    Ingame Handle: trgluestickz
    Discord Name: Hurricane🌀Marigolds#2563
    Guilds: She Looked LVL 18 & Essence of Aggression
    Alliances: Imperium & Order of the Silent Shroud
    Platform: PC
  • demonmongerdemonmonger Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 3,350 Arc User
    edited September 2017
    > @trgluestickz said:
    > > @pjohnny1 said:
    >
    > > I let go of my earnings and investments each time we get new sets of artifact weapons or better enchantments. I should.not have to let go of certain aspects of my character that are not related to items but instead game mechsnics.
    >
    > >
    >
    > >
    >
    > >
    >
    > > That's bullcrap and you know it.
    >
    > >
    >
    > > What are you going to do when a reset comes ? You think they will keep the cap at 70 forever ? You think they are going to keep all the gear you have now viable ? MMO's are progression based without it people get bored and leave . This company is here to make money so you can bet that a cap and gear change will come . Without the carrot the donkey doesn't move .
    >
    >
    >
    > I said gear changes but mechanics shouldnt...
    >
    > I see no reason to keep mechanics the same as they are now in all cases, they should be on the table for improvement just like items and I'm not oposed to adding new mechanics. Items are also not entirely seperate from mechanics since some gear items include mechanics themselves and items also heavily enhance other mechanics via added stats.
    > Also, if you don't trust Cryptic to do a good job maintaining this game, why would you trust them to get the mechanics already in place right in the first place? You yourself have supported other forms of mechanic changes, such as a change to stealth you proposed a while back.

    There is a difference in stealth changes vs enchantmentry and cc changes... stealth changes initially I never wanted... but they said at wills should drain stealth. Stealth and cc encounters are two very different things.. none should have changed... the only thing I hated was the addition of stealth rings...

    And nothing I propose is a nerf to an item that an item we put money into
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  • pjohnny1pjohnny1 Member Posts: 89 Arc User

    > @pjohnny1 said:

    > I let go of my earnings and investments each time we get new sets of artifact weapons or better enchantments. I should.not have to let go of certain aspects of my character that are not related to items but instead game mechsnics.

    >

    >

    >

    > That's bullcrap and you know it.

    >

    > What are you going to do when a reset comes ? You think they will keep the cap at 70 forever ? You think they are going to keep all the gear you have now viable ? MMO's are progression based without it people get bored and leave . This company is here to make money so you can bet that a cap and gear change will come . Without the carrot the donkey doesn't move .



    I said gear changes but mechanics shouldnt...


    I would thing with a level increase new spells/abilities would be added , this is a D&D game after all. So some mechanics would change or would I hope even if no other reason than a change to the same abilities used all the time .

  • trgluestickztrgluestickz Member Posts: 1,144 Arc User
    edited September 2017
    morenthar said:

    I prefer more fluid combat. I'll eventually come back to the game and I hope CC is balanced, but not gone from PvP. I'm one of the few TRs you'll find that wants Smoke Bomb reworked, as well as other node-mucking powers. That or increase node sizes.

    Smoke bomb does not cover the entire node if we are talking about 1 TR. I think most of SB's problem is how often it can be used thanks to recovery + using it with CB and/or another TR. I like your idea of increasing the size of the nodes but I don't think it will be needed if the devs sucessfully end perma CC with the new diminishing returns system.

    SB does however have an odd best of both worlds thing going on with it. You wouldn't expect smoke bomb to do any damage since its name and theme sounds more like a utility power for obsuring your foe's vision and not much else. It seems to be explained as poison gas mixed in with a smoke grenade but even then its odd that it not only does damage, its one of our highest damage moves in addition to being our second strongest CC.

    While I think smokebomb is weird, its not an issue if they are already going for a more systemwide approach to toning down CCs. I am not in favor of reworking it since its one of the few TR powers that is still really good and most TRs seem to like it the way it is.
    That, and we don't know how good of a job the devs will do when they do start reworking the TR class and I'd rather they not nerf any powers that are currently still good but not OP.
    That, and I don't see how you could rework a power called "smoke bomb" to not be a good node weapon or even why node weapons are a problem if the devs's aim is to eliminate perma CC with this new system. Other than increasing the size of the nodes, the only way I see to make SB not a good node weapon would be to either make it not an AOE or make it suck so bad nobody uses it anyway. I'm not in favor of either of those things.
    Post edited by trgluestickz on
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    --[----- "Your friendly neighborhood spawn of Satan." -----]--
    ----------------------------------------------------------------
    Main Character: Hurricane Marigolds (Rogue WK & Assassin)
    Ingame Handle: trgluestickz
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