demonmongerMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,350Arc User
> @beckylunatic said: > Why not just add this to the current setup instead of replacing it? 2 quick shores and 2 quick etos could be replaced by POM and Throne, Cragmire Crypts and Grey Wolf Den, turning 20 minutes into an hour, it's not predictable if you have time to max the daily RAD. I'd say keep bonus AD on 1 picked dungeon run at least. > > Undisclosed reason for doing it this way is an anti-botting strategy. I don't know which-all content has bots, but I'd say it's a pretty effective way of killing their ability to leech runs.
This system won't kill bots. It will however make people think a dying game has players.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
I hate paying taxes! Why must I pay thousands of dollars in taxes when everything I buy is taxed anyways!
"All dungeons and trials that are unlocked via campaigns are now account unlocks. This affects the following queues: Demogorgon (Master) Fangbreaker Island Assault on Svardborg Assault on Svardborg (Master) Spellplague Caverns (Master) Tomb of the Nine Gods"
I saw that, you still have to grind through Mod 10 on at least one character, and successfully complete each of those once per character to use that character to random queve VT.
So people with one/few good toons can queue their trashy alts in hope of drawing eToS. Then leave if they get something hard. And the rest of the people don't need to take the leavers penalty. A silver lining?
> @joe123thewayward said: > How are you forced to play with so called "noobs" if you can random que with a full party? Am I missing something here? > > The random queve is built upon the PUG queve, so when you get one of the very common server disconnects while loading the dungeon or in some other part of the duengeon you get auto removed from the run, and hit with the leaver penalty. The auto removed player will be auto replaced with a pug. The auto remove timer duration is supposed to be increased, but people will still get hit by this problem. Thats assuming the changes to the auto kick timer work as advertised, which is a big if given the level of quality control that currently exists.
Thanks for that. IF they fix these timer/autboot issues, then running randoms with premade guild pick up groups might actually be "fun"?
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beckylunaticMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 14,231Arc User
On the other hand, you won't have players queuing into a skirmish with level 1 gear expecting you to carry them for AD.
We are well aware that the game's current meta doesn't fit squarely (triangularly?) into the trinity. I already talked a bit about why that is. I do hear some people calling for things like a six player party, and I can say we have no plans to adjust the party size. Obviously a "hexagon" does not work very well with a 5 person party. Even beyond that, having 5 distinct roles required for each party is not ideal.
There are some big questions for the team to work out, and I realize you'd all like to know exactly what changes are going to happen and when, but I can't say because we haven't put any details in stone ourselves, beyond my mentioning adjustments coming to the 2 DC meta.
I mentioned this tangentially, and to acknowledge to those among you who were pointing out the role requirements as being out of touch that we are aware of this issue and we're looking at it. Making the requirements account for the current meta is much more difficult than it sounds, additionally, leaving a lot of open ended requirements would actually bog the queue system down significantly.
The in-game discussion is already turning to DC+MoF+Tank+2DPS as the solution to the "Thou Shalt Not Have 2 DCs" decree. This points to the fact that the solution to the "problem" isn't in changing DCs but fixing other classes to be viable alternatives to the 2nd DC.
The 2 classes that leap to mind as viable for, or even in need of, this are the SW and OP. If they received a buff/debuff spec you would see more variety in their builds (especially the OP where the only difference between Tank and "Heal" in Feats/Boons is 4 choices...), and people would actually not have to depend on 2 "healers", they would have a variety of Heal/Tank/DPS sources for buffs/debuffs rather than the 3 options you see now.
Tomb of the Nine Gods is in its own random queue category so you don't need access to it to queue for an epic dungeon. Whatever is the current highest item level content (which could be any number of queues, as long as they all share the same item level category, it simply happens to be that right n
The problem isn't just iL.
The top 3 dungeons are all gated behind things other than iL, FBI needs you to complete the Bryn Shandar introduction as a minimum, mSP requires completion of most of its campaign, and ToNG requires completion of all of its campaign (as you get completion for opening the dungeon not Hunts or Boons).
Its not just iL that makes for a successful party in those dungeons either.
The 3 of them sit on a different tier from the other content in terms of difficulty, simply having enough iL isn't an indicator of success (otherwise no party would fail ToNG as our average iL going in is always over the requirement by 2k for example).
The three of them should be the top tier.
Putting Seals of the Brave in FBI and mSP would also make them desirable content for the players with the iL to be running the 3 of them, no one that is running ToNG cares about elven armor parts, but put 10 Seals of the Brave in the final chest and things get more interesting.
If your goal is to have more queues poping then the first step is to have the 3 groups of dungeon; Levelling, T1 & T2, and T3 - this will make it reliable to get runs of the T1&2 content for players as the T3 players can mostly carry parties through all of the T1&T2 content (it being a thing at T3 levels to start soloing those lower dungeons) meaning they can easily queue randomly for their AD.
If its really about quality of life for players make the split that matches the difficulties of the dungeons and the rewards they offer.
Obsidian Moonlight - Paladin Obsidian Oath - Warlock A whole lot of other Obsidian toons as well.
I had just a few runs in lvl dungeons, in the past for Ad, but then i had also the situation, that an absolutely fresh player was also in, and i killed his experience (and fun) in Tos. This was for me the reason to refuse running lvl Dungeons.
If i want to make Ad on all my 8 Chars now, we do guildwise Ad farm runs, 1 or 2 Mainchars and the rest are Alts or Twinks.
- You, the devs have "forced" the players with SH and Alliance System to join an Guild, you have "killed" many, many small guilds, bc People want the Boons as fast as possible. On an side effect of that, these whole "buff/debuff/metagroup" thingy has spread over the majority of the community.
- I do believe, that these whole class/group balancing becomes for you harder and harder, with each change in the game, like new classes, new mounts, mount boni and so on. Why? You have lost a long time ago the connection to your playerbase. You don't listen if people are reporting bugs, things that are clearly not Wai, and many other things.
So you are making now an step back, from these "Join a guild" to become successful in the game, to an "Run more random" ..
What?
Let me tell you an story from my NW gaming history:
It was once upon an time, when i played early Sunday morning in Mod 4 and i was bored, so i tried with my Tr (17k GS very, very old system) to get into T1 Cloak Tower I was kicked after 12 seconds from the group. This was the absolut darkest moment in NW for me, and i clearly don't want something like that happened to me again. Understandable isn't it?
So if these changing you have in mind, becomes live, i would never try to use these rq "feature" with my Tr, i know, what will happened and i think not also for me, so also for many other Tr and Sw.
So what would be left for me?
Starting rq with my Twink DC?
I don't care to run with bad geared people, as long as they try act as good as they can.
If not, or worser i come in an party full of bots, i would leave, having an leaver penalty, and as an member of an small guild, these wouldn't not only harm me, it was also an penalty for the whole guild, if such an "core" char, is not able to run for an matter of time.
Come think of it, why not let RQ have [Willing to Teach] [Wanting to Learn] [Speed run] [Normal run] buttons...where maybe the first two sort by language, and willing-to-teach has higher rewards?
There are definitely improvements that can be made to the random queue feature in the future. A mentoring queue that matches experienced players with those who are flagg
This is something that I would really love to see actually implemented. As an end game player I frequently help out my lower GS or less experienced friends because I'm friends with them- not their gear/character so I'm willing to run with less than optimized parties for their benefit sometimes. It would be nice we both got some kind of reward for finishing a difficult run together through cooperation. I'd be willing to teach people if I get paired with people who are willing to learn instead of the sour apple that is angry about not getting a carry. I see that you're trying to do something to that effect with the first time finishing bonus~ but If we got paired with people in random queue we could help it would be nice to have that option to flag that you're willing to help vs not.
Relmyna - AC/DC Righteous + Haste| Nadine - CW MoF (working on it)|Buffy - GF SM Tact| Hrist - Justice Tankadin|Healadin (Wannabe Tank)| Lena -MI Sabo TR (Farmer) | Jeska - GWF SM Destroyer (Farmer) | Maggie - HR PF Trapper (Wannabe DPS)
--
I'll never retrace my steps.
The RQ system will lead to a lot of frustrations with getting too weak teams for epic dungeons and epic trials.
People do not take responsibility for contributing, most are quite happy to slack and leech and be carried as long as they get the queue reward.
With account-wide dungeon unlocks people will take all their trash alts, join an RQ hoping to get an easy dungeon, and just quit out if a hard one pops. Then just move to the next character while the leave lockout is active.
I think this will be messy. People want their AD and will find the easiest way to get their daily AD fix.
The main source of AD might actually switch to the baby dungeons and skirmishes run across several low-gear alts, rather than maxing out AD cap on some chars. The epic dungeon RQ and the epic trial RQ needs to be avoided if you want efficient AD runs. That will make the AD farming business even more trivial and boring.
I believe that after 34 pages when basically every single player told the devs that this is a terrible idea and they gave detailed explanation about why this idea is just going to make everything a lot worse, if the devs actually implement this system it will show the players how much devs care about their opinions.
If this thing goes lives it means pure and simple that there is not point at all to have a preview server, considering that devs have not a single intention to listen to the players. Its like reviving the times before mod6.
50m / 36k = 1389 days of capped RAD refinement by someone to compensate sinks when moving from old BiS to new BiS. This is 3.8 years. Trading, Zen, and other sources will not help, because this is just moving AD from one person to another with loss. Real alts will not help, because they need to upgrade too. And sinks are compensated only by RAD in economy, ZAX and AH only move money around.
I'm personally do not see road ahead for my chars. 1 year to BiS might have been reasonable road for character, but 4 years, simply impossible, because BiS will move in meantime.
From what I see this creates great motivation for:
Army of Invoke-Salvager alts (50 char accouns will be back?)
Bots supporting real money trading in some form
New people will come, and see AD ceiling quite soon, they will either feel demotivated sitting at level incompatibe with large chunk of content, leave, or will use bannable activities like real money trading (so will eventually leave game due to bans).
The most anger induceing thing about 12b is not the nerfs but instead the fact that resources were wasted on this instead of a very high priority fixsuch as improving the terrible nw customer service
@dragonwizard#9636 You know , it is funny. TO9G is still not fixed. Individuals are still being thrown to the beginning of the dungeon, if they manage to fall down the platform at the last boss. So the whole party has to go help them come back to the last boss. Since the mobs spawn, like nothing happened.
When you kill Ras , he still takes prizes with him down to the bottom of the pit. Or he does not drop them at all. And people are still unable to even get the prizes from the chests, if they die, before it is done. On live at least. XD Now combine this with this change.
I was referring to nerfing the 2 DC meta, I apologize for the lack of clarity. We don't have any intent to nerf DC generally. I spoke about how in the long run we'd like to make damage dealers focus more on dealing damage, and healers more on healing and generally everyone less on buffing and rebuffing, so depending on your feelings, those adjustments could be seen as a nerf, but those are longer term goals.
@asterdahl@kreatyve This is really important, much more so than the RQ system... Could you please set up a separate official thread for this, even if it is to say "We aren't giving more info on this yet," just so this thread can stay at least somewhat on focus?
I really appreciate your willingness to candidly throw this out there, but this is probably going to be a pretty hot topic all on its own
The most anger induceing thing about 12b is not the nerfs but instead the fact that resources were wasted on this instead of a very high priority fixsuch as improving the terrible nw customer service
@dragonwizard#9636 You know , it is funny. TO9G is still not fixed. Individuals are still being thrown to the beginning of the dungeon, if they manage to fall down the platform at the last boss. So the whole party has to go help them come back to the last boss. Since the mobs spawn, like nothing happened.
When you kill Ras , he still takes prizes with him down to the bottom of the pit. Or he does not drop them at all. And people are still unable to even get the prizes from the chests, if they die, before it is done. On live at least. XD Now combine this with this change.
Oh boy...
that's the reason i have it unlocked on 3 toon's and never done the dungeon, with my toons woul dbe really hard to end it, i know i can get a nice party at same level on my guild (same level because i dont wnat to be carried by bis, and dont want to slow them down), but the bis players say exactly what you said abouve and i dont plan to take alot of time just to meet new bugs...
btw now that i read your post, i realized that the random queue dont have the T3 dungeons (MSP, FBI, T9G) appart because the know noone would run it...
btw now that i read your post, i realized that the random queue dont have the T3 dungeons (MSP, FBI, T9G) appart because the know noone would run it...
T9G is in its own category (Hero's Accord or some other name like that). FBI and MSP though, they are with MC, VT....
btw now that i read your post, i realized that the random queue dont have the T3 dungeons (MSP, FBI, T9G) appart because the know noone would run it...
T9G is in its own category (Hero's Accord or some other name like that). FBI and MSP though, they are with MC, VT....
Tks man i didn't notice that
the "Fix" is even easyer then" They should just send FBI and MSP to Hero accord and make them drop seals of brave...
and not lock MC to a player that have beated FBI because he will not have any fun doing MC or VT with a FBI ablle party...
To be clear, RQ players should not be considered "noobs" as they will have completed all campaigns and be above 11k. IN fact they'll most likely all be above 12k.
Not if they are using an alt. Since the unlock across all characters decision, the ratio of geared for FBI to ungeared for FBI swung quite some. I've recently hit 11 with two alts, and the thought of them doing FBI or MSP is laughable. I wouldn't even bother queuing for them because I know they would be a liability.
But if I want bonus RAD on them, then queue I must.
Remember when people would struggle to complete CN because the characters who met the IL by not much were generally either at best an extra weight to be carried, or at worst booted on arrival? If its too far back for people to remember, I have a feeling we'll be coming full circle soon.
btw now that i read your post, i realized that the random queue dont have the T3 dungeons (MSP, FBI, T9G) appart because the know noone would run it...
T9G is in its own category (Hero's Accord or some other name like that). FBI and MSP though, they are with MC, VT....
Tks man i didn't notice that
the "Fix" is even easyer then" They should just send FBI and MSP to Hero accord and make them drop seals of brave...
and not lock MC to a player that have beated FBI because he will not have any fun doing MC or VT with a FBI ablle party...
Apparently, this seemingly obvious resolution is not feasible because of Seals of The Brave.
I'm not entirely sure whether it's because FBI/MSP don't award them (in which case maybe changing that would be a solution..) or because awarding them would caue people to not want to play T9G, or something... either way its those few people who might be upset about seals of the brave who are being catered to when the decision was made to stick FBI/MSP in with Malabog, Valindra and Kessel.
I'm not sure if the people it' being done for even realie that they are to blame? OK... blame is too strong a word... but it's their perceived happiness that puts the rest of us in this position.
Considering priority in RQ will be given to the oldest queues, and the fact that since <11K character can't solo queue for FBI/MSP, the sub 11K dungeons will continue to spin at the current rate.
Logic therefore dictates that the longest queues will be the ones not being queued for independantly by a majority of players (FBI/MSP) so it doesn't take a brain surgeon to figure out which dungeons will have the longest queues. Particularly if people start grouping tto or three DPS together. Those solo DPS guys who currently ask, ask and ask again to find FBI (in particular) groups will be the ones queueing the longest. The chances are when queuing RQ that you will either end up in FBI, MSP or MC... and maybe VT... cos EToS is getting regular love from sub 11K guys who might not be getting any bonus RAD for their effort but won't have to keep playing <font color="orange">HAMSTER they hate. I may have mentioned this before, but now having had the priorities explained I'm even more convinced... Guess where your 11K+ Healer/Tank is most likely to end up?
... for those speculating their earnings would drop significantly. We actually don't think they will. In fact, we're fairly confident that on average earnings will probably be going up.
Only if people actually use the random queues, and that's a really, really big "if".
I may not be a typical player, but I was looking at why I run dungeons/skirmishes/trials/whatever.
To farm some particular drops. For example I ran eGWD until I got the Bloodstained Shirt. No Random queues here.
To get some specific guaranteed rewards. Currently that means Seals of the Brave in ToNG, Random queues would currently work here, as there is no other dungeon in that category, but that will change with the new dungeon you will add in Mod 13. So, longer term, no Random queues here either.
To assist guildies that are gearing up. I will often join some less-geared players in my guild/alliance. The problem is that they are often around 7-9K IL and do not have all the Epic dungons unlocked so they cannot use the Random queues. They want to run some of the easier epic dungeons for gear drops (and the bonus AD does not hurt). Those are the players that really need the Bonus AD and the drops from the epic dungeons, and random queues made things worse for them. You are hurting them, not helping. So, once again, no Random Queues here either.
To teach/show somebody (guild/alliance members, not random strangers) something, like the possible shortcuts in eToS or how to see which of the three exits at the beginning of ToNG is the "correct" one, so you don't waste time by clearing those that lead nowhere. Obviously, Random queues would be pointless here.
It is worthwhile to note that I never run the leveling dungeons for a daily AD bonus. I run content that I find "fun", and I simply do not enjoy non-challenging content. I did however, solo Cloak Tower 50 times in a row, but that was just to get the "Executioner" and "Paingiver" titles - something that was quite difficult for DCs to do otherwise.
Another thing to consider is available time. sometimes I have just 15 minutes to play...sometimes I have up to 15 hours in a row. I do not want a Random Queue that might put me in a 30-minute dungeon if I have just 15 minutes available. This would not be an issue if all the content in a particular category was equally hard, equally long, equally rewarding and equally enjoyable, but that is very, very far from today's reality.
So, bottom line, I do not see any scenario in this particular universe that would encourage me to do Random Queues and they will certainly not increase my earnings.
I was referring to nerfing the 2 DC meta, I apologize for the lack of clarity. We don't have any intent to nerf DC generally. I spoke about how in the long run we'd like to make damage dealers focus more on dealing damage, and healers more on healing and generally everyone less on buffing and rebuffing, so depending on your feelings, those adjustments could be seen as a nerf, but those are longer term goals.
However, I am quite concerned about the "...healers more on healing..." Strange as it may sound to some, there are people that play DCs that absolutely hate the healing role. I know, I am one of them. I do like being a non-heal support character, ideally with a versatile role, and the DC is just about perfect for me ... (and if someone really wants a healer I will tell them to get an OP or even a SW -- they are better healers than DCs anyhow).
While healers are needed for some content - such as low-end dungeons and undergeared parties, today's high-end content (FBI, mSP and ToNG) is just about perfectly balanced for 1 tank, 1-2 DPSers and 2-3 buffers/debuffers/support. That may not have been your original intention, but it is your fault, so to speak.
Why?
Well, you added content, in particular "boss" encounters that require excessive DPS to finish. (I mean, seriously, overflowing a 32-bit signed integer, really?), and it is simply more effective to use one DPS and three buffers than three DPSers and one buffer.
But, you know what - most people are happy with this. The DPSers are happy because they enjoy doing massive damage and the supporters are happy because they feel needed.
I would say that the phrase "if it ain't broken, don't fix it" applies here.
Now, if you want to encourage a different party make-up, you could do that in a different way. Let's say for example that you had 2 bosses at the opposite end of the room, and a time limit to take them down. People would want to switch to groups with 2 primary DPSers for something like that.
Or, to rephrase - the content you make is the single most important factor in determining which party make-up is most efficient (and what becomes the current "meta").
My main has been a DC since day 1 of open beta (with one break after mod6 was released). I do not heal (well, except as a side effect of some of my powers). If I am forced to focus on healing, the game will lose much of its appeal, as far as I am concerned, and I most probably will leave for good. I hope I don't end up in that situation.
that's the reason i have it unlocked on 3 toon's and never done the dungeon, with my toons woul dbe really hard to end it, i know i can get a nice party at same level on my guild (same level because i dont wnat to be carried by bis, and dont want to slow them down), but the bis players say exactly what you said abouve and i dont plan to take alot of time just to meet new bugs...
btw now that i read your post, i realized that the random queue dont have the T3 dungeons (MSP, FBI, T9G) appart because the know noone would run it...
@rafaelda TONG is apart. It is in its own category. My opinion is MSP and FBI should be too. It is not something a random pug group can finish just like that.
You have new players who bought the level 70 . Then you have people who just got to level 70, worked on their acc , got the gear and IL up and need to do it, but do not have a guild or an alliance to try it with. Then you have the " carry me around " people. Lets not forget the : " i am the all mighty DPS i do not need any of you, i do not need a tank or a support i can just solo it " people. Not to mention : " No english " players. I know Italian and Croatian as well , but heck even with that some people just do not wish to communicate. And at the end you have normal players who tried it , did it with their guild, did research , watched youtube videos and then tried it and failed, until they managed to figure it out. Even 15 k + parties sometimes do not finish the runs. Ir is the synergy of the group. Sometimes it just failes cos people are stubborn. If you wanna try it ,i am around. Since a lot od DC's quit in my guild, i am one of the few, and i mean like 5 dcs on 150 accounts. And only 2 actually main DC's. One of them is me. So i get dragged to this kind of runs a lot. Some we finish, some we do not. It is just how it is. But i do not mind taking random people in with me. If i have to do it , you can come suffer , with me.
Where are we at on a Temptation Warlock's ability to queue as a healer?
On my 13k Templock, I can effortlessly heal T1-T2 epic dungeons (hell, I can solo them, tbh), but T3 can be pretty brutal.
This has nil to do with healing. I tend to heal somewhere around 10x more than a cleric can. I can, for example, keep an entire party of random squishy people alive while standing in two orcus balls indefinitely without a cleric around for Hallowed Ground, or up to four balls with a cleric around.
No, T3s are brutal because, as a SW, my ability to increase party damage is significantly lower than a DCs, which means, even at best case non-speedrun meta, a 20 minute FBI run is going to take 30-40 minutes with me healing it -- even though I'm going to deal 3-4x the personal DPS of most DCs. At my best, I increase a party's base power by 20% (can Dark Revelry please get buffed to 20% current instead of 20% base power?), buff movement speed (which is ridiculously fun, it's just not "powerful" in the traditional sense), and debuff enemy DR by 18%. That's....somewhere around 20% of a DC or even MoF Renegade CW's DR debuffing capacity, and also somewhere around 10-20% of a DC or OP's power buffing capacity (most people are going to get ~6k or less power from Dark Revelry).
It's also harder for me to keep people alive in truly-dangerous content. Even with a combined more-than-50% reduction to my target's dmg, my ability to convert a most one-shot mechanics into a survivable attack is almost non-existent. I suspect that many of these mechanics are entity effects, which means they would respect AoE incoming damage reductions or buffs on players, but not respect outgoing dmg debuffs on enemies...which are the bulk of what I can apply. I also have no way to cleanse poison debuffs on allies, which is unnecessary / useless 99.99999999% of the time, but means that if I'm solo healing FBI, anyone poisoned is probably going to die when Hati goes in the air, because I'm both unable to cleanse and unable to continue healing them without a target to attack. Barring using a piñata every attempt, there's no counter-play this game offers to me, should a party member fail to dodge his spines.
I know I wouldn't be thrilled on any of my other toons if I got some dropped in MSP with some random terrible templock instead of some random terrible cleric -- but the ability to run MSP with guildies as a healer would be fun occasionally.
I totally get that it's a tricky thing to balance. As we are right now, a case can be made for temptation actually being superior to a healadin or DC for something ridiculously easy like Shores of Tuern, while simultaneously being a tremendous liability compared to a DC for FBI or MSP (or even CN, for 90% of the temptation warlock population).
So...With T3 dungeons lumped into the same queue as malabog's castle, I don't really know if I even *want* Temptation to be able to queue as a healer in the current state, because it seems like it would lead to a lot of inviable (or at least angry) parties. But I built this toon to be a dedicated healer, and I am good at it. When my guild needs DPS, I bring my DPS toon. When they need healing, I bring my Templock.
Would it be possible, in the interim, to remove party requirements (1xTank 1xHealer 3xDPS) for full parties random-queuing together? This would allow me to queue with friends as a healer, without "imposing" myself as a healer upon unsuspecting randoms.
Okay, I've seen this thing coming out quite often so I will clarify: in preview right now, if you dont have the Item Level to queue for FBI or MSP, you don't have access to the epic dungeon RQ. An the RQ especifically says: ¡You must be elegible for all epic dungeons queues'. That, I understand, means that even if you are 16k IL, if you don't have FBI and MSP unlocked, or you have them unlocked but don't have the 28% Everfrost Resistance, you can't queue in that RQ.
So, no such thing as 'cheating' in the queue by not being elegible for FBI or MSP. It is an 100% o 0%: you can do everything, or you don nothing at all.
After reading your replies i do understand what you want to change and if i were an outsider, i have to say you are doing good. But i'm not an outsider. As a Neverwinter player from the beginning (this only means i've seen all changes since release, i'm not a better or 'more worth player' cause of this) i say you should stop this RQ system right now, because this will destroy a lot.
You told us to run leveling dungeons if we want AD instead of doing epic dungeons if we're not able to use epic RQs. You told us this will be an improvement for all players. Not today but in the future. Is that really it? How does this sound to you? Do you can believe in this? Do you even want it?
You did very well with all other changes in 12b but nobody wants a LD&D - "Leveling Dungeons & Dragons".
PS.: We are awaiting your reply for the stronghold shard quests with RQs to this day.
How about, if there were a new tier to strongholds?
Right now, I and many people in my guild/alliance run stuff like WoD, Sharandar, Dread Ring and Caer Koenig becaue they provide guild resources. If the new zones offered guild resources then people would look to run them more, once they've completed the campaign content.
So... maybe adding a new set of shards or treasures for SKT/CA/ToA?
Please... no really... PLEASE... for the love of puppies don't think of using those zones to add extra resources for building existing guild house content as that would make the job of raising a new guild even more ridiculous than it already is, and probably be met with and even more vocal response than you;re getting for RQ, but if FBI and MSP offered shards/treasures for a new tier of guild structures I think you would find more people running them.
This is off the top of my head thinking... I'm genuinely trying to think of any other way for you to get these dungeons full of players without having to resort to sticking them in with the sub 11K epic dungeons in Random Queue.
But let's start with... "The Weigh Station" a guild resource that allows really high end guilds to transfer some of it's farmed resources (via the Mine, Farm, Mill and Quarry) to alliance members who need those resources? Give me some time I could probably come up with some more...
But please...
Try and find another way. Because Random Queues as they stand right now is a really, really, bad idea.
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beckylunaticMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 14,231Arc User
PS.: We are awaiting your reply for the stronghold shard quests with RQs to this day.
Yes. Yes, we are. Because if you need to run specific content for shards in addition to random content for AD, that's not remotely respectful of players with limited time, now is it?
Comments
> Why not just add this to the current setup instead of replacing it? 2 quick shores and 2 quick etos could be replaced by POM and Throne, Cragmire Crypts and Grey Wolf Den, turning 20 minutes into an hour, it's not predictable if you have time to max the daily RAD. I'd say keep bonus AD on 1 picked dungeon run at least.
>
> Undisclosed reason for doing it this way is an anti-botting strategy. I don't know which-all content has bots, but I'd say it's a pretty effective way of killing their ability to leech runs.
This system won't kill bots.
It will however make people think a dying game has players.
> How are you forced to play with so called "noobs" if you can random que with a full party? Am I missing something here?
>
> The random queve is built upon the PUG queve, so when you get one of the very common server disconnects while loading the dungeon or in some other part of the duengeon you get auto removed from the run, and hit with the leaver penalty. The auto removed player will be auto replaced with a pug. The auto remove timer duration is supposed to be increased, but people will still get hit by this problem. Thats assuming the changes to the auto kick timer work as advertised, which is a big if given the level of quality control that currently exists.
Thanks for that. IF they fix these timer/autboot issues, then running randoms with premade guild pick up groups might actually be "fun"?
Neverwinter Census 2017
All posts pending disapproval by Cecilia
The 2 classes that leap to mind as viable for, or even in need of, this are the SW and OP. If they received a buff/debuff spec you would see more variety in their builds (especially the OP where the only difference between Tank and "Heal" in Feats/Boons is 4 choices...), and people would actually not have to depend on 2 "healers", they would have a variety of Heal/Tank/DPS sources for buffs/debuffs rather than the 3 options you see now. The problem isn't just iL.
The top 3 dungeons are all gated behind things other than iL, FBI needs you to complete the Bryn Shandar introduction as a minimum, mSP requires completion of most of its campaign, and ToNG requires completion of all of its campaign (as you get completion for opening the dungeon not Hunts or Boons).
Its not just iL that makes for a successful party in those dungeons either.
The 3 of them sit on a different tier from the other content in terms of difficulty, simply having enough iL isn't an indicator of success (otherwise no party would fail ToNG as our average iL going in is always over the requirement by 2k for example).
The three of them should be the top tier.
Putting Seals of the Brave in FBI and mSP would also make them desirable content for the players with the iL to be running the 3 of them, no one that is running ToNG cares about elven armor parts, but put 10 Seals of the Brave in the final chest and things get more interesting.
If your goal is to have more queues poping then the first step is to have the 3 groups of dungeon; Levelling, T1 & T2, and T3 - this will make it reliable to get runs of the T1&2 content for players as the T3 players can mostly carry parties through all of the T1&T2 content (it being a thing at T3 levels to start soloing those lower dungeons) meaning they can easily queue randomly for their AD.
If its really about quality of life for players make the split that matches the difficulties of the dungeons and the rewards they offer.
Obsidian Oath - Warlock
A whole lot of other Obsidian toons as well.
I had just a few runs in lvl dungeons, in the past for Ad, but then i had also the situation, that an absolutely fresh player was also in, and i killed his experience (and fun) in Tos.
This was for me the reason to refuse running lvl Dungeons.
If i want to make Ad on all my 8 Chars now, we do guildwise Ad farm runs, 1 or 2 Mainchars and the rest are Alts or Twinks.
- You, the devs have "forced" the players with SH and Alliance System to join an Guild, you have "killed" many, many small guilds, bc People want the Boons as fast as possible.
On an side effect of that, these whole "buff/debuff/metagroup" thingy has spread over the majority of the community.
- I do believe, that these whole class/group balancing becomes for you harder and harder, with each change in the game, like new classes, new mounts, mount boni and so on.
Why? You have lost a long time ago the connection to your playerbase. You don't listen if people are reporting bugs, things that are clearly not Wai, and many other things.
So you are making now an step back, from these "Join a guild" to become successful in the game, to an "Run more random" ..
What?
Let me tell you an story from my NW gaming history:
It was once upon an time, when i played early Sunday morning in Mod 4 and i was bored, so i tried with my Tr (17k GS very, very old system) to get into T1 Cloak Tower
I was kicked after 12 seconds from the group.
This was the absolut darkest moment in NW for me, and i clearly don't want something like that happened to me again.
Understandable isn't it?
So if these changing you have in mind, becomes live, i would never try to use these rq "feature" with my Tr, i know, what will happened and i think not also for me, so also for many other Tr and Sw.
So what would be left for me?
Starting rq with my Twink DC?
I don't care to run with bad geared people, as long as they try act as good as they can.
If not, or worser i come in an party full of bots, i would leave, having an leaver penalty, and as an member of an small guild, these wouldn't not only harm me, it was also an penalty for the whole guild, if such an "core" char, is not able to run for an matter of time.
Very, very bad decission
--
I'll never retrace my steps.
Some of my best friends are Imaginary.
People do not take responsibility for contributing, most are quite happy to slack and leech and be carried as long as they get the queue reward.
With account-wide dungeon unlocks people will take all their trash alts, join an RQ hoping to get an easy dungeon, and just quit out if a hard one pops. Then just move to the next character while the leave lockout is active.
I think this will be messy. People want their AD and will find the easiest way to get their daily AD fix.
The main source of AD might actually switch to the baby dungeons and skirmishes run across several low-gear alts, rather than maxing out AD cap on some chars. The epic dungeon RQ and the epic trial RQ needs to be avoided if you want efficient AD runs.
That will make the AD farming business even more trivial and boring.
If this thing goes lives it means pure and simple that there is not point at all to have a preview server, considering that devs have not a single intention to listen to the players. Its like reviving the times before mod6.
I'm personally do not see road ahead for my chars. 1 year to BiS might have been reasonable road for character, but 4 years, simply impossible, because BiS will move in meantime.
From what I see this creates great motivation for:
- Army of Invoke-Salvager alts (50 char accouns will be back?)
- Bots supporting real money trading in some form
New people will come, and see AD ceiling quite soon, they will either feel demotivated sitting at level incompatibe with large chunk of content, leave, or will use bannable activities like real money trading (so will eventually leave game due to bans).You know , it is funny.
TO9G is still not fixed.
Individuals are still being thrown to the beginning of the dungeon, if they manage to fall down the platform at the last boss.
So the whole party has to go help them come back to the last boss. Since the mobs spawn, like nothing happened.
When you kill Ras , he still takes prizes with him down to the bottom of the pit. Or he does not drop them at all.
And people are still unable to even get the prizes from the chests, if they die, before it is done.
On live at least. XD
Now combine this with this change.
Oh boy...
I really appreciate your willingness to candidly throw this out there, but this is probably going to be a pretty hot topic all on its own
btw now that i read your post, i realized that the random queue dont have the T3 dungeons (MSP, FBI, T9G) appart because the know noone would run it...
the "Fix" is even easyer then" They should just send FBI and MSP to Hero accord and make them drop seals of brave...
and not lock MC to a player that have beated FBI because he will not have any fun doing MC or VT with a FBI ablle party...
I've recently hit 11 with two alts, and the thought of them doing FBI or MSP is laughable.
I wouldn't even bother queuing for them because I know they would be a liability.
But if I want bonus RAD on them, then queue I must.
Remember when people would struggle to complete CN because the characters who met the IL by not much were generally either at best an extra weight to be carried, or at worst booted on arrival? If its too far back for people to remember, I have a feeling we'll be coming full circle soon. Apparently, this seemingly obvious resolution is not feasible because of Seals of The Brave.
I'm not entirely sure whether it's because FBI/MSP don't award them (in which case maybe changing that would be a solution..) or because awarding them would caue people to not want to play T9G, or something... either way its those few people who might be upset about seals of the brave who are being catered to when the decision was made to stick FBI/MSP in with Malabog, Valindra and Kessel.
I'm not sure if the people it' being done for even realie that they are to blame? OK... blame is too strong a word... but it's their perceived happiness that puts the rest of us in this position.
Considering priority in RQ will be given to the oldest queues, and the fact that since <11K character can't solo queue for FBI/MSP, the sub 11K dungeons will continue to spin at the current rate.
Logic therefore dictates that the longest queues will be the ones not being queued for independantly by a majority of players (FBI/MSP) so it doesn't take a brain surgeon to figure out which dungeons will have the longest queues. Particularly if people start grouping tto or three DPS together. Those solo DPS guys who currently ask, ask and ask again to find FBI (in particular) groups will be the ones queueing the longest.
The chances are when queuing RQ that you will either end up in FBI, MSP or MC... and maybe VT... cos EToS is getting regular love from sub 11K guys who might not be getting any bonus RAD for their effort but won't have to keep playing <font color="orange">HAMSTER they hate.
I may have mentioned this before, but now having had the priorities explained I'm even more convinced... Guess where your 11K+ Healer/Tank is most likely to end up?
2. Reduce the length of time it takes to finish the dungeon because it will be a nightmare after you "fix" the 2 dc meta.
3. Add other sources for seals of the brave.
I may not be a typical player, but I was looking at why I run dungeons/skirmishes/trials/whatever.
- To farm some particular drops. For example I ran eGWD until I got the Bloodstained Shirt. No Random queues here.
- To get some specific guaranteed rewards. Currently that means Seals of the Brave in ToNG, Random queues would currently work here, as there is no other dungeon in that category, but that will change with the new dungeon you will add in Mod 13. So, longer term, no Random queues here either.
- To assist guildies that are gearing up. I will often join some less-geared players in my guild/alliance. The problem is that they are often around 7-9K IL and do not have all the Epic dungons unlocked so they cannot use the Random queues. They want to run some of the easier epic dungeons for gear drops (and the bonus AD does not hurt). Those are the players that really need the Bonus AD and the drops from the epic dungeons, and random queues made things worse for them. You are hurting them, not helping. So, once again, no Random Queues here either.
- To teach/show somebody (guild/alliance members, not random strangers) something, like the possible shortcuts in eToS or how to see which of the three exits at the beginning of ToNG is the "correct" one, so you don't waste time by clearing those that lead nowhere. Obviously, Random queues would be pointless here.
It is worthwhile to note that I never run the leveling dungeons for a daily AD bonus. I run content that I find "fun", and I simply do not enjoy non-challenging content. I did however, solo Cloak Tower 50 times in a row, but that was just to get the "Executioner" and "Paingiver" titles - something that was quite difficult for DCs to do otherwise.Another thing to consider is available time. sometimes I have just 15 minutes to play...sometimes I have up to 15 hours in a row. I do not want a Random Queue that might put me in a 30-minute dungeon if I have just 15 minutes available. This would not be an issue if all the content in a particular category was equally hard, equally long, equally rewarding and equally enjoyable, but that is very, very far from today's reality.
So, bottom line, I do not see any scenario in this particular universe that would encourage me to do Random Queues and they will certainly not increase my earnings. I posted some thoughts on the "2 DC" issue in the Feedback forum. See here: https://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter/#/discussion/1234831/the-two-dc-problem-and-what-to-do-about-it I really, seriously. urge you to consider the suggestions I raise there. You do have a chance to kill two birds with one stone - solve this problem by making other classes an equally viable alternative instead of bringing a second DC.
However, I am quite concerned about the "...healers more on healing..." Strange as it may sound to some, there are people that play DCs that absolutely hate the healing role. I know, I am one of them. I do like being a non-heal support character, ideally with a versatile role, and the DC is just about perfect for me ... (and if someone really wants a healer I will tell them to get an OP or even a SW -- they are better healers than DCs anyhow).
While healers are needed for some content - such as low-end dungeons and undergeared parties, today's high-end content (FBI, mSP and ToNG) is just about perfectly balanced for 1 tank, 1-2 DPSers and 2-3 buffers/debuffers/support. That may not have been your original intention, but it is your fault, so to speak.
Why?
Well, you added content, in particular "boss" encounters that require excessive DPS to finish. (I mean, seriously, overflowing a 32-bit signed integer, really?), and it is simply more effective to use one DPS and three buffers than three DPSers and one buffer.
But, you know what - most people are happy with this. The DPSers are happy because they enjoy doing massive damage and the supporters are happy because they feel needed.
I would say that the phrase "if it ain't broken, don't fix it" applies here.
Now, if you want to encourage a different party make-up, you could do that in a different way. Let's say for example that you had 2 bosses at the opposite end of the room, and a time limit to take them down. People would want to switch to groups with 2 primary DPSers for something like that.
Or, to rephrase - the content you make is the single most important factor in determining which party make-up is most efficient (and what becomes the current "meta").
My main has been a DC since day 1 of open beta (with one break after mod6 was released). I do not heal (well, except as a side effect of some of my powers). If I am forced to focus on healing, the game will lose much of its appeal, as far as I am concerned, and I most probably will leave for good. I hope I don't end up in that situation.
TONG is apart. It is in its own category.
My opinion is MSP and FBI should be too. It is not something a random pug group can finish just like that.
You have new players who bought the level 70 .
Then you have people who just got to level 70, worked on their acc , got the gear and IL up and need to do it, but do not have a guild or an alliance to try it with.
Then you have the " carry me around " people.
Lets not forget the : " i am the all mighty DPS i do not need any of you, i do not need a tank or a support i can just solo it " people.
Not to mention : " No english " players. I know Italian and Croatian as well , but heck even with that some people just do not wish to communicate.
And at the end you have normal players who tried it , did it with their guild, did research , watched youtube videos and then tried it and failed, until they managed to figure it out.
Even 15 k + parties sometimes do not finish the runs. Ir is the synergy of the group. Sometimes it just failes cos people are stubborn.
If you wanna try it ,i am around. Since a lot od DC's quit in my guild, i am one of the few, and i mean like 5 dcs on 150 accounts.
And only 2 actually main DC's. One of them is me.
So i get dragged to this kind of runs a lot.
Some we finish, some we do not. It is just how it is. But i do not mind taking random people in with me. If i have to do it , you can come suffer , with me.
On my 13k Templock, I can effortlessly heal T1-T2 epic dungeons (hell, I can solo them, tbh), but T3 can be pretty brutal.
This has nil to do with healing. I tend to heal somewhere around 10x more than a cleric can. I can, for example, keep an entire party of random squishy people alive while standing in two orcus balls indefinitely without a cleric around for Hallowed Ground, or up to four balls with a cleric around.
No, T3s are brutal because, as a SW, my ability to increase party damage is significantly lower than a DCs, which means, even at best case non-speedrun meta, a 20 minute FBI run is going to take 30-40 minutes with me healing it -- even though I'm going to deal 3-4x the personal DPS of most DCs. At my best, I increase a party's base power by 20% (can Dark Revelry please get buffed to 20% current instead of 20% base power?), buff movement speed (which is ridiculously fun, it's just not "powerful" in the traditional sense), and debuff enemy DR by 18%. That's....somewhere around 20% of a DC or even MoF Renegade CW's DR debuffing capacity, and also somewhere around 10-20% of a DC or OP's power buffing capacity (most people are going to get ~6k or less power from Dark Revelry).
It's also harder for me to keep people alive in truly-dangerous content. Even with a combined more-than-50% reduction to my target's dmg, my ability to convert a most one-shot mechanics into a survivable attack is almost non-existent. I suspect that many of these mechanics are entity effects, which means they would respect AoE incoming damage reductions or buffs on players, but not respect outgoing dmg debuffs on enemies...which are the bulk of what I can apply. I also have no way to cleanse poison debuffs on allies, which is unnecessary / useless 99.99999999% of the time, but means that if I'm solo healing FBI, anyone poisoned is probably going to die when Hati goes in the air, because I'm both unable to cleanse and unable to continue healing them without a target to attack. Barring using a piñata every attempt, there's no counter-play this game offers to me, should a party member fail to dodge his spines.
I know I wouldn't be thrilled on any of my other toons if I got some dropped in MSP with some random terrible templock instead of some random terrible cleric -- but the ability to run MSP with guildies as a healer would be fun occasionally.
I totally get that it's a tricky thing to balance. As we are right now, a case can be made for temptation actually being superior to a healadin or DC for something ridiculously easy like Shores of Tuern, while simultaneously being a tremendous liability compared to a DC for FBI or MSP (or even CN, for 90% of the temptation warlock population).
So...With T3 dungeons lumped into the same queue as malabog's castle, I don't really know if I even *want* Temptation to be able to queue as a healer in the current state, because it seems like it would lead to a lot of inviable (or at least angry) parties. But I built this toon to be a dedicated healer, and I am good at it. When my guild needs DPS, I bring my DPS toon. When they need healing, I bring my Templock.
Would it be possible, in the interim, to remove party requirements (1xTank 1xHealer 3xDPS) for full parties random-queuing together? This would allow me to queue with friends as a healer, without "imposing" myself as a healer upon unsuspecting randoms.
So, no such thing as 'cheating' in the queue by not being elegible for FBI or MSP. It is an 100% o 0%: you can do everything, or you don nothing at all.
After reading your replies i do understand what you want to change and if i were an outsider, i have to say you are doing good. But i'm not an outsider. As a Neverwinter player from the beginning (this only means i've seen all changes since release, i'm not a better or 'more worth player' cause of this) i say you should stop this RQ system right now, because this will destroy a lot.
You told us to run leveling dungeons if we want AD instead of doing epic dungeons if we're not able to use epic RQs. You told us this will be an improvement for all players. Not today but in the future.
Is that really it? How does this sound to you? Do you can believe in this? Do you even want it?
You did very well with all other changes in 12b but nobody wants a LD&D - "Leveling Dungeons & Dragons".
PS.: We are awaiting your reply for the stronghold shard quests with RQs to this day.
Right now, I and many people in my guild/alliance run stuff like WoD, Sharandar, Dread Ring and Caer Koenig becaue they provide guild resources. If the new zones offered guild resources then people would look to run them more, once they've completed the campaign content.
So... maybe adding a new set of shards or treasures for SKT/CA/ToA?
Please... no really... PLEASE... for the love of puppies don't think of using those zones to add extra resources for building existing guild house content as that would make the job of raising a new guild even more ridiculous than it already is, and probably be met with and even more vocal response than you;re getting for RQ, but if FBI and MSP offered shards/treasures for a new tier of guild structures I think you would find more people running them.
This is off the top of my head thinking... I'm genuinely trying to think of any other way for you to get these dungeons full of players without having to resort to sticking them in with the sub 11K epic dungeons in Random Queue.
But let's start with... "The Weigh Station" a guild resource that allows really high end guilds to transfer some of it's farmed resources (via the Mine, Farm, Mill and Quarry) to alliance members who need those resources?
Give me some time I could probably come up with some more...
But please...
Try and find another way. Because Random Queues as they stand right now is a really, really, bad idea.
Neverwinter Census 2017
All posts pending disapproval by Cecilia