AOE DPS Test showing incredible disparity in DPS levels

btairborne
btairborne Member Posts: 352 Arc User
edited September 2017 in Player Feedback (PC)
Hello to the Devs -

Following is an Area of Effect DPS (Damage per second) test running Dread Legion skirmish SOLO. Below are the results using ACT, subtracting the portals portion of the skirmish because this part involved too much running around and class mobility is not the same. I then adjusted DPS to match companion bonuses from my TR who had the most cumulative damage bonuses. I also compared DPS using my OP as baseline. I used my best results rather than an average for this test.

Weapon Enchants tested: Trans Lightning, Trans Vorpal, and Trans Dread.
Bondings used: All Rank 12 offense slots

Characters tested (all fully DPS specced):
IL 13004 OP / +10% Companion bonus damage (Archons+Siege Master)
IL 12808 TR / +24% Companion bonus damage
IL 12537 HR / +12% Companion bonus damage
IL 12388 GF / +3 Companion bonus damage
IL 12452 GWF / +10% Companion bonus damage

Class / Best DPS / Companion Adjusted DPS / Adj % over OP Baseline
OP / 118.1k / 134.6k (+14%) / N/A
TR / 160.1k / 160.1k (no adj) / +18.9%
HR / 184.4k / 206.5k (+12%) / +53.4%
GF / 189.1k / 228.8k (+21%) / +70.0%
GWF / 270.5k / 308.3k (+14%) / +129.0%


Additional notes:

All weapons were River District complete sets. All artifacts and artifact equipment were Legendary. Difference of IL was from companion level and enchantment levels.

Parity in Primary Artifact were not achieved. TR used Wheel of Elements, HR used Eye of the Giant, OP used Sigil of the Devoted Cleric. Otherwise Sigil of the Great Weapon Fighter was used. WOE has about 5-10% overall AOE DPS over EoftG from what I tested and I would expect 10-20% over SofGWF.

Also in IMO more equal gear in enchantments would probably give the GWF and GF another at least 10% more dps and the HR 5%.

Observations:

1. TR: AOE is extremely low when compared to GWF (+92.6% so almost double the dps). Although I don't have data to prove it, I have found GWF single target DPS to be extremely comparable to TR as well.

2. OP and GF: Although both tanks, when they are DPS specced the GF is outperforming the OP by around 70% with AOE damage.

3. GF: Out performs all true DPS classes tested with AOE damage except for GWF.

4. GWF: AOE damage is off the charts compared to other classes.

Conclusions:

Although HR and OP seems very well balanced, TRs are comparatively weak dps and are not attractive to groups or people who know the above. GFs feel very much too powerful compared to OPs. GWFs are like playing a god-like character compared to other classes.

Question to the Devs:

Is this how DPS levels were envisioned and if so why is that fair to players?
Any DEV pms on specifics will be answered.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
@terramak
@dreadnaught#5263
@chaidrin#2320
@nitocris83
@asterdahl
@mimicking#6533

(Edited to add additional notes and clearer conclusions)
Post edited by btairborne on
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Comments

  • btairborne
    btairborne Member Posts: 352 Arc User
    @rjc9000

    The decision to publish results of Dread Skirmish SOLO is debatable I understand. But I did not max it out, although the GWF is close. Everything took a rotation of abilities at least.

    Well my results pretty much contradict what you think about GF AOE damage. I guess you don't know everything about GFs after all.
    Also CW is not included in the test and Jack of All trades meaning is a generalist. GWF is defintitely a specialist in single target and AOE damage both, just not necessarily highest in both (not enough data).

    Thanks though for the tip on multiplicative damage bonuses.
  • tom#6998
    tom#6998 Member Posts: 952 Arc User

    @rjc9000

    The decision to publish results of Dread Skirmish SOLO is debatable I understand. But I did not max it out, although the GWF is close. Everything took a rotation of abilities at least.

    Well my results pretty much contradict what you think about GF AOE damage. I guess you don't know everything about GFs after all.
    Also CW is not included in the test and Jack of All trades meaning is a generalist. GWF is defintitely a specialist in single target and AOE damage both, just not necessarily highest in both (not enough data).

    Thanks though for the tip on multiplicative damage bonuses.

    How do u want anyone to take u serious when u dont even list the Spells u used and made screenshots of the ACT or smth like that (not that a test in the Dreadring skirmish would be good anyways). Also this is assuming that u have the exact same knowledge/skill in all the classes u are playing + not taking into account the Stats/gear they have.


  • tom#6998
    tom#6998 Member Posts: 952 Arc User

    I am hoping that GF and GWF are reworked soon. It is unfair that GF can smash all classes, they even give GWF a run for their money. When you have to play a perfect game to beat the tank, you know the game has balance issues.

    lmao now i know how u get your test results xD. never made it past dread ring skirmish in NW right?
  • btairborne
    btairborne Member Posts: 352 Arc User
    tom#6998 said:

    @rjc9000

    The decision to publish results of Dread Skirmish SOLO is debatable I understand. But I did not max it out, although the GWF is close. Everything took a rotation of abilities at least.

    Well my results pretty much contradict what you think about GF AOE damage. I guess you don't know everything about GFs after all.
    Also CW is not included in the test and Jack of All trades meaning is a generalist. GWF is defintitely a specialist in single target and AOE damage both, just not necessarily highest in both (not enough data).

    Thanks though for the tip on multiplicative damage bonuses.

    How do u want anyone to take u serious when u dont even list the Spells u used and made screenshots of the ACT or smth like that (not that a test in the Dreadring skirmish would be good anyways). Also this is assuming that u have the exact same knowledge/skill in all the classes u are playing + not taking into account the Stats/gear they have.


    I would say once you get to a certain IL then Dread Legion would not be a good test but I thought it worked for the moderate-high level IL I had.
    Sorry to not be more specific but let's just say I used the most known and recognized builds and suggested best powers straight from all the Class guides. I also tested for best combos to find the best numbers. I have been at this for weeks.

    I would consider myself expert in all 5 classes especially as far as finding the highest DPS potential solo.
    Played time: TR over 25 days, OP over 21 days, HR over 18 days, GWF over 14 days and GF over 10 days.

    Anyway if the Devs want to know something in a PM I will tell them.
  • micky1p00
    micky1p00 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 3,540 Arc User
    edited September 2017
    rjc9000 said:

    Dread Legion solo.

    I am not sure this is "relevant" or good testing, since Dread Legion is an easy skirmish.

    Any moderately geared character breathes on the mobs, and the mobs die, turning this into a "who touches the mobs first with their attacks" fest.

    1. There is no touching the mobs first, If the test is solo..
    2. ACT shows damage and not HP removal as paingiver, so the HP on the mobs is not as relevant. Easy or hard will only differentiate burst vs sustained. But both can be normalized to general average. So no issue there too....
    rjc9000 said:


    Erm... no.

    GF is pretty ridiculous on single target, I won't lie, but GF suffers on AoE fights. Our AoE tools aren't as strong as GWF (GF WMS doesn't have the benefit of double attack speed and GF is at halved damage potential on mobs due to no KC), although we compensate with amazing single target burst DPS.

    I challenge any DPS GF to clear eSP mob sections faster than a SS CW of the likes of Freedom or Sharp (bosses I won't talk about, since this thread is on AoE damage potential).



    4. GWF: AOE damage is off the charts compared to other classes.

    No.

    GWF is jack of all trades DPS.

    It's not like CW, which specializes in AoE and suffers on single, or TR, which suffers on AoE but specializes in single.

    GWF DPSes everything well, but trades this off for lack of versatility (then again, lack of versatility is a GWF issue as a whole).
    This is in theory or in practice ? Have you seen a recent test of GWF vs TR, for example, for single target (no mobs) ? One without party and one with a party.
    Single target is easier to test, and yet.....
    rjc9000 said:



    Characters tested (all fully DPS specced):
    IL 13004 OP / +10% Companion bonus damage (Archons+Siege Master)
    IL 12808 TR / +24% Companion bonus damage
    IL 12537 HR / +12% Companion bonus damage
    IL 12388 GF / +3 Companion bonus damage
    IL 12452 GWF / +10% Companion bonus damage

    If you're talking about damage buffs like Air Archon, Siege Master, Earth Archon, those are multiplicative.
    True, but the difference is ~1%, so not what make or kill this test.

    ~-~-~-~-~

    Not saying the test is valid or not. But saying that some test is not valid just because X is better at Y than Z, without anything behind the "just because" is not exactly valid counter argument.
    And no, I've ran with X and he beat Y, wouldn't just work either.



  • santralafax
    santralafax Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 2,896 Arc User
    edited September 2017
    I have a hard time buying that a *good* HR would be out-dps'd by a GF. A very hard time. I know you think you are an expert on all classes, but are you REALLY??
  • btairborne
    btairborne Member Posts: 352 Arc User
    edited September 2017
    @santralafax

    I was shocked myself because I didn't see it in my normal playing.
    This is the sort of thing you wouldn't find in a group though.
    Remember Into the Fray buff would be affecting the HR too so he wouldn't be out-dpsed in a group.
    Not only that but Aspect of the Pack artifact offhand power would be giving a nice bonus you don't see here because it relies on having allies.






    Post edited by btairborne on
  • armadeonx
    armadeonx Member Posts: 4,952 Arc User
    I would love for certain people to note the difference in DPS between the Paladin and all of the other classes...

    Just to be clear, as someone who mains a Pally I am absolutely fine with their DPS positioning and think it's about right.

    I'm not surprised about the TR position but I would like to see a test done for single target though as dungeon bosses are where the DPS really counts.

    Please Do Not Feed The Trolls

    Xael De Armadeon: DC
    Xane De Armadeon: CW
    Zen De Armadeon: OP
    Zohar De Armadeon: TR
    Chrion De Armadeon: SW
    Gosti Big Belly: GWF
    Barney McRustbucket: GF
    Lt. Thackeray: HR
    Lucius De Armadeon: BD


    Member of Casual Dailies - XBox
  • gabrieldourden
    gabrieldourden Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,212 Arc User
    > @santralafax said:
    > I have a hard time buying that a *good* HR would be out-dps'd by a GF. A very hard time. I know you think you are an expert on all classes, but are you REALLY??

    Actually the results of the OP match my experience in a solo situation, at least if the HR is a Trapper (may be different with combat).
    Le-Shan: HR level 80 (main)
    Born of Black Wind: SW Level 80
  • wickedduck22#9795
    wickedduck22#9795 Member Posts: 100 Arc User
    Dread Legion LUL.
  • spideymt
    spideymt Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 710 Arc User

    Dread Legion LUL.

    /sign
    nuff said

  • btairborne
    btairborne Member Posts: 352 Arc User
    @ wickedduck22
    @spideymt

    It's a burst dps test for moderate level characters and should generalize. If i take on something like ETOS there is too much dodging that would be needed and it would skew the results.
    Kessels is an option I had too but it takes longer. I still may do it.
  • btairborne
    btairborne Member Posts: 352 Arc User

    > @santralafax said:

    > I have a hard time buying that a *good* HR would be out-dps'd by a GF. A very hard time. I know you think you are an expert on all classes, but are you REALLY??



    Actually the results of the OP match my experience in a solo situation, at least if the HR is a Trapper (may be different with combat).

    I am Combat and have been playing that spec for 2 years before just about anyone regular on these boards. Versus Trapper they appear pretty even watching ACT scores.
  • btairborne
    btairborne Member Posts: 352 Arc User
    armadeonx said:

    I would love for certain people to note the difference in DPS between the Paladin and all of the other classes...

    Just to be clear, as someone who mains a Pally I am absolutely fine with their DPS positioning and think it's about right.

    I'm not surprised about the TR position but I would like to see a test done for single target though as dungeon bosses are where the DPS really counts.

    I am still looking for a good fight to test that. Unfortunately when you fight bosses solo most of the time you have to end up dodging attacks since there is no tank and they have adds when you don't kill them fast enough.

    This reminds me of a Glabrezu fight in WOD where my TR had 256k dps and a comparable IL GWF had 265k dps according to ACT. As the fight ended in about 20 sec(?) due to our high scores I would characterize it as burst single target dps. That and other results on boss fights and dragons tells me the single target DPS between the two classes is very close. The AOE difference is a gulf.

  • btairborne
    btairborne Member Posts: 352 Arc User
    @lazaroth666

    I removed the data of the portals phase because it represented a different kind of fight and I wanted to keep just the same kind of data. If I wanted to know how mobility affected it I could just look at that. That might be interesting.

    I think weapon enchantments are an intrinsic part of the class and not testing with them would be a mistake resulting in not real numbers. I did test each class with each enchantment though. It is interesting how much of a difference this usually makes and with large power sharing I am sure even more.

    Classes were all basically 12.4k and above, RD weapons, Trans enchants, Rank 12 bondings, Rank 9+ enchants, maxed out artifacts and equipment, and nearly same boons (1 or 2 less). It is definitely a bracket, but not middle and I felt they were in the same one. I don't think it's fair to say you cannot test unless you are BIS, nor believe it for a second. I also don't buy the theory that class DPS becomes closer as you get higher IL. From building these classes slowly over the last 2 years it seems to me it has only increased.

    I included the OP because..why not? He was available to test and I wanted to compare. I have a hard time believing they will be among top DPS in TONG or FBI though. Maybe #2 with 1 real DPS class sure.

    By the way I respect your knowledge and work with the GWF, but I don't think you can really relate to the problem. You have been BIS for as long as I have playing the game. This seems to go for a lot of BIS people. They just don't want to see anything change despite the evidence.


  • spideymt
    spideymt Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 710 Arc User

    They just don't want to see anything change despite the evidence.

    Erm...laza told you some real good points and now he despites the evidence ( the "evidence" you made and obvious not in correct way...)? Thats interesting...

  • gabrieldourden
    gabrieldourden Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,212 Arc User
    I proposed some time ago a test in an high level dungeon with a fixed group (GF, OP, 2DC, Dps) and changing only the DPS between runs. My guess is that the results are going to be pretty similar to what the OP is saying, but would be nice to see.
    Le-Shan: HR level 80 (main)
    Born of Black Wind: SW Level 80
  • niadan
    niadan Member Posts: 1,635 Arc User
    edited September 2017
    Just ask SWs that balanced their class around Owl Bear Cub how that worked out for them. @lazaroth666 is spot on.
  • gabrieldourden
    gabrieldourden Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,212 Arc User
    edited September 2017
    Nope. you can't balance classes and enchantments separately. Interactions are important. Think about the old Lostmauth set. It was meh for some classes and utterly broken for others. Same for Burning Guidance. It was ok until Temptation SWs started to melt everything.
    People will gravitate around the best solutions and that's where you need to balance stuff. I think the OP was right in choosing the best enchantment for each class as a benchmark.
    Le-Shan: HR level 80 (main)
    Born of Black Wind: SW Level 80
  • safespacecadet#3341
    safespacecadet#3341 Member Posts: 374 Arc User
    edited September 2017
    If anything, OPs have a major advantage over GFs tanking, because they can give themselves a lot of temporary hitpoints. Everything I ever did in the game was easier with paladin. Might take a little longer to kill things, but paladin's survivability is far above GF. Sure GFs, can defend with their shield and attack at the same time, but I'm not sure if this trade-off is equal.
  • safespacecadet#3341
    safespacecadet#3341 Member Posts: 374 Arc User
    Oh, and I believe you can blame the current state of Trickster Rogues on whiners in PVP who couldn't learn how to work together to deal with rogues.
  • wintersmoke
    wintersmoke Member Posts: 1,632 Arc User

    @santralafax

    I was shocked myself because I didn't see it in my normal playing.
    This is the sort of thing you wouldn't find in a group though.
    Remember Into the Fray buff would be affecting the HR too so he wouldn't be out-dpsed in a group.
    Not only that but Aspect of the Pack artifact offhand power would be giving a nice bonus you don't see here because it relies on having allies.






    IIRC comp counts as an ally.
  • btairborne
    btairborne Member Posts: 352 Arc User

    @lazaroth666

    I think weapon enchantments are an intrinsic part of the class and not testing with them would be a mistake resulting in not real numbers. I did test each class with each enchantment though. It is interesting how much of a difference this usually makes and with large power sharing I am sure even more.

    Classes were all basically 12.4k and above, RD weapons, Trans enchants, Rank 12 bondings, Rank 9+ enchants, maxed out artifacts and equipment, and nearly same boons (1 or 2 less). It is definitely a bracket, but not middle and I felt they were in the same one. I don't think it's fair to say you cannot test unless you are BIS, nor believe it for a second. I also don't buy the theory that class DPS becomes closer as you get higher IL. From building these classes slowly over the last 2 years it seems to me it has only increased.

    I included the OP because..why not? He was available to test and I wanted to compare. I have a hard time believing they will be among top DPS in TONG or FBI though. Maybe #2 with 1 real DPS class sure.

    By the way I respect your knowledge and work with the GWF, but I don't think you can really relate to the problem. You have been BIS for as long as I have playing the game. This seems to go for a lot of BIS people. They just don't want to see anything change despite the evidence.


    Weapon enchantments aren't an intrinsic part of the class. You balance a character and then you can also balance an enchantment separately. What you are saying is that a character must be balanced around an enchantment weapon then you would have a problem where you can't bring new weapon enchantments that might be better or worse than that one that balanced the class or people would start screaming for buffs/nerfs or you would also see an scenario where the class itself is underperforming a lot but it's useful thanks only to the enchantment and that's not right.

    I never said that you cannot test unless you are BIS, I said that there are too many variables that must be taken into consideration. Do not twist my words. You are also assuming that I'm saying things based on feelings, in fact, you are asumming mistakenly many different things. A GWF isn't the only character that I play, I'm BIS with a GF and a SW too, also an alt of every other class between 10k-13k so unlike you I've passed for every item level bracket which allows me to have my own understanding of the game without requiring to ask others for a confirmation. I don't assume things nor speak of them based on feelings, I have experienced them, I run my own tests, numbers and formulas.

    I said that the OP can be one of the top damage dealers, I didn't say specifically that they will be the top one. Finally, you mentioned that since I'm a BIS player, I have the problem that I don't want to see anything change. Why are you in such a defensive position and assuming so many things? I don't care about changes, I will adapt to any upcoming nerf/buffs because they are inevitable. If you read my post, you will see that I never said anything about being against changes, I said that your test had to be done in a different way, including many more variables otherwise it is not strong enough to be considered as "evidence".
    Yes, that's true but it they decide there is nothing wrong with the enchantment, then they need to look at the class.
    A base AOE dps would no doubt be done by the devs if they considered changing anything so I don't know why you are so worked up about it.

    I don't believe "there are too many factors to consider". The only one I believe you brought up was using Weapon master (as opposed to Steel Blitz I assume), and which I considered and found a non-issue. Even with Trans Vorpal. You should use Steel blitz well before 100% crit from what I found.

    Look I don't want this to get personal. I also have all character classes from 11.5k to 13k too. I enjoy testing, and I consider everything I can think of. I have you feedback, thanks. This was to the devs anyway.