Official Feedback Thread: Random Queues

1272830323349

Comments

  • araneax
    araneax Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 639 Arc User
    edited September 2017

    Reduce burnout from running the same queue ad nauseum by introducing variety.

    lol unlike the grind for vionblood, or doing the same thing over and over and over again in chult. wait thats your guys mo for every mod.

    We only run the content over and over again because the drop rates on what we want are soooo low. Like, there are still people grinding for +5 rings after having not gotten them, despite farming them in an unhealthy fashion, since UD rings came out. lol I gave up on Edemo rings after hundreds of runs without either +5 Power ring.
    I switched to running FBI and MSVA , forget the +5 rings. Legendary Dod and Hell works too. The chance of getting them is higher since it is 2 different runs.
    Post edited by araneax on
    d7d81448-df6b-48cf-94a0-cf1ba87d861a_zpsish6zr2v.jpg

  • draconislupus
    draconislupus Member Posts: 205 Arc User
    edited September 2017

    Reduce burnout from running the same queue ad nauseum by introducing variety.

    lol unlike the grind for vionblood, or doing the same thing over and over and over again in chult. wait thats your guys mo for every mod.

    We only run the content over and over again because the drop rates on what we want are soooo low. Like, there are still people grinding for +5 rings after having not gotten them, despite farming them in an unhealthy fashion, since UD rings came out. lol I gave up on Edemo rings after hundreds of runs without either +5 Power ring.
    I know 1 player, fnhusa57, also a Twitch streamer, who farmed since it came out who just got 1.
  • draconislupus
    draconislupus Member Posts: 205 Arc User
    I know that this might be a dumb question but what is the importance of the cyan font?
  • araneax
    araneax Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 639 Arc User
    edited September 2017

    I know that this might be a dumb question but what is the importance of the cyan font?

    @draconislupus
    " If you are listing a bug please have this text in RED, if you are posting an opinion or feedback please use CYAN. "
    normal convo is white.
    d7d81448-df6b-48cf-94a0-cf1ba87d861a_zpsish6zr2v.jpg

  • draconislupus
    draconislupus Member Posts: 205 Arc User
    Thanks. So I should have put my ideas for dungeons in cyan. I'll have to edit the posts.
  • araneax
    araneax Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 639 Arc User
    edited September 2017

    Thanks. So I should have put my ideas for dungeons in cyan. I'll have to edit the posts.

    @draconislupus
    < font color=cyan > This text will display in cyan. < / font >
    < font color=red >This text will display in red.< / font >
    =)
    d7d81448-df6b-48cf-94a0-cf1ba87d861a_zpsish6zr2v.jpg

  • draconislupus
    draconislupus Member Posts: 205 Arc User
    araneax said:

    Thanks. So I should have put my ideas for dungeons in cyan. I'll have to edit the posts.

    @draconislupus
    < font color=cyan > This text will display in cyan. < / font >
    < font color=red >This text will display in red.< / font >
    =)
    Thanks I changed my suggestions to cyan.
  • draconislupus
    draconislupus Member Posts: 205 Arc User
    edited September 2017


    zerappus said:

    The Mod12b Random Queue system is the worst idea I've ever heard from NW Dev(s).

    This feature will cause many new players to quit prematurely.

    How are new players ever gonna get to 11k if the daily rewards are locked behind it in the first place.

    Devs are delving into Catch-22 territory where newbies are in a discouragement loop until they leave.

    This is a severe mistake and miscalculation the NW Devs need to reassess.

    I've helped and talked to many NW newbies. Many 60-70 (new and returning ) are confused and overwhelmed as it, with the staggering amount of campaigns and currencies they need to track. On top of that, is a seemingly insurmountable gearing-up Wall.

    Behind that Wall, the Devs erect the Random Queue Wall where daily rewards are locked out. If the new player spigot get strangled out, the NW base population will thin and dry out as well.

    They need to rethink/reevaluate this before they roll this out just like that.

    How is the daily reward lock behind a wall? Level will not be a factor. So as soon as you can do the first dungeon you can random queue for the dungeon you are leveled to. Do granted not really random since you will only be able to do 1 dungeon. And threw l the same goes for skirmishes. The only real thing is the daily total will be about 500 less than it is now. But they will make that up by running a second run. So q dungeon and 1 skirmish will get even low level players all but 500 RAD that they get now with 2 dungeons and 2 skirmishes.

    The epic random queve is locked behind a dungeon completion requiorment wall where 1st you must unlock every dungeon in the queve including all the t3s and then successfuly complete them all at least once to be eligible for the random queve "bonuses." The t3s are probably not viable for a party of 11k characters using the random queve's nonsensical 3-1-1 role requiorments, especially with the bonding nerfs. The leveling dungeons dont drop salvage and wont give seals (seals are just more salvage btw), they also dont have a negligible chance at an unbound drop except for the cragmire crypt artifacts, all of this is a wall to newbes ability to earn AD, and without AD progress is almost impossible at more than a glacial pace.
    Don't get me wrong I'm arguing to have the campaign completion restriction removed. But I'm arguing for that because with that restriction because with it I think it does more damage to those below level 70. In the durrent system you get a total of 13.5k RAD for running 2 skirmishes and 2 dungeons of either type. So most 70th levels run epics for that and drops. With the new system you would earn 13k RAD for running 1 skirmish and 1 regular dungeon. So the daily RAD is really not hidden behind a wall. My argument is that this will do more damage to morale of low levels than anything else. If the level restriction is removed then all they have to do is hit 11k IL and then they can earn 18k. Plus I'm arguing that 70th level players should be able to get their "regular" dungeon reward on their 2nd epic dungeon run instead of being force to run a low level dungeon.

    But anyway the only thing that the new system does is prevent them from getting salvage and seals on 1 run because they have to run a regular dungeon. As for RAD they will get 500 less. But after their 1 regular dungeon run they can still farm all day.

    Remember I think the new system is flawed and wrong too. But I don't think it is flawed on the RAD side just the experience ruining effect and morale killing.

    Check out my posts in cyan color on pages 19 and 29 to see where I stand and my suggestions.
  • plasticbat
    plasticbat Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 10,471 Arc User
    edited September 2017
    As I mentioned long before, there is really no good reason to run epic random dungeon, period.
    It really does not matter if it is locked behind the wall.

    A 3-man 10 minutes pre-made level dungeon + an epic dungeon of your choice will have a very very good chance to use a lot less time than ONE random epic dungeon. If one considers spend that 10 minutes in a level dungeon is waste of time, the time wasted in a random epic dungeon would be a lot more. If it is not every time, it will at least be in average.

    No, this is not what the dev wanted that to be but it will be.

    There are 3 situations:

    1. run epic random dungeon + epic dungeons.
    2. run level random dungeon + epic dungeons.
    3. epic dungeons.

    I will see most people will do mostly either 2 or 3 and not 1.
    *** The game can read your mind. If you want it, you won't get it. If you don't expect to get it, you will. ***
  • namelesshero347
    namelesshero347 Member Posts: 2,109 Arc User
    edited September 2017
    As I understand it, you need to have unlocked ToNG to do random epic. I'm guessing the percentage of population that has ToNG unlocked now is small and well-geared. Maybe epic random won't be so bad.

    Too bad everyone else, including all my toons, will have to do the leveling dungeons. I probably won't do the epics without the extra AD.
  • jaime4312#3760
    jaime4312#3760 Member Posts: 844 Arc User
    edited September 2017
    @asterdahl

    Once you get to address the 2 DC meat in 5 player groups, there are a few things I'd like to point out as a GF and SW:

    - You need to make sure you take your time to address the 2 DC meta so having alternative group compositions actually is viable or even just as good which imo, it's how it should have always been.

    - I applaud your decision of addressing the 2 DC meta not because I'm a cleric hater nor anything similar, it is because, objectively speaking, it is no balanced that any class, whatever their role is, outperforms the rest by such a wide margin which is what DC does vs other support classes. A team should need a DC, yes, but having a 2nd one shouldn't be better than bringing a different class in, it is just not balanced, if a team does noticeably better with 2 characters of the same class than it would with any other then there's a pretty serious balance issue there. This leads to the next point:

    - As you nerf the 2 DC meta, you need to make adjustments to the other classes and/or endgame content so having alternative party compositions is just as good, Master of Flame Renegade CW and Hellbringer Scourge Warlock come to my mind as classes that could use some tweaking, the former would need a rework that would grant it more options to support the team ( a common complaint is that, at endgame, certain things won't help much if at all, like extra armour pen or crit for maxed out players) and the latter would need a substantial buff to the dps boost (both personal and team wide) given by Pillar of Power and perhaps powers like dreadteft changed so they have better uptime + much better party utiliy.

    - Base damage of dps classes vs increased effectivenes thanks support classes:

    One of the reasons there's the 2 DC meta is because, simply put, damage dealer classes are very dependent on support ones as, without their buffs at endgame, they will usually hit like a wet noodle compared to doing it when buffed to the moon. In order to ensure that there actually is variety of party compositions that in turn will make any class just as viable as others when teaming up for endgame content, you need to make sure all damage dealers get a rather large base damage increase, obviously, CW/HR/GWF would need less of boost than SW/TR would. Your goal should be, without making classes clones of each others dps-wise, that they can have comparable damage output so picking X isn't noticeably better than Y dps class which is what happens on live now and imo is a serious balance issue.

    With dps classes being able to dish out much more damage by themselves, groups would have much more freedom to pick up members and this is, in my opinion, how the game should work like, as in, as long as everyone is rocking a good build and tye team has a good balance of dps and support, why should it perform far worse than current meta x2 DC groups?

    - Obviously, it is necessary that support classes are still wanted and needed. The game shouldn't go from 4 supports + dps party compositions to 5 dps groups, should it? No, there needs to be a sweet spot. I believe that, as long as everyone is built correctly, 3 dps + 2 support teams should perform similarly to 3 supports + 2 dps.

    - Bottomline is, all support classes need to have similar buffing capacity so they're equally viable and beneficial to the team, as it stands, DC clearly is better than the rest. Buffing party utility of non DC classes could also come with a pretty good base damage increase for DC as it arguably has the worst one out of all supports.

    With the absolutely necessary huge base increase damage for dps classes, you achieve more consistent perfomance from them (regardless of teammates) and effectively address the problem we currently have on live aka unbuffed/low on buffs weakling vs buffed God of War lulz melting everything yada yada trolololol

    As both a support (GF) and a damage dealer (SW) class player I believe the aforementioned suggestions would make neverwinter more enjoyable in general as would ensure everyone can actually have equal or similar chances to be invited to run all types of content this game has and, obviously, players would still need to be built properly otherwise good luck!
  • spideymt
    spideymt Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 710 Arc User
    /sign araneax

    Except your foul language and your points about SW bc i got a different opinion.

  • araneax
    araneax Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 639 Arc User
    edited September 2017
    spideymt said:

    /sign araneax

    Except your foul language and your points about SW bc i got a different opinion.

    @spideymt
    sorry...i fixed it.
    For a moment there, my anger got the best of me. Thanks for reminding me.
    d7d81448-df6b-48cf-94a0-cf1ba87d861a_zpsish6zr2v.jpg

  • ladypeanut66
    ladypeanut66 Member Posts: 78 Arc User
    Just a fact: right now on preview if you want to access the skirmish random queue you need to have 10k IL. I don't know about the gear progression for new level 70's right now, but my alts still use the alliance set/drowcraft and they are not 10k IL. So, until you have ADs to buy the gear (or pay for it with real money) you are also locked out of skirmishes.

    The 10k IL comes from the mod12B skirmish.
  • mordekai#1901
    mordekai#1901 Member Posts: 1,598 Arc User
    edited September 2017

    I mentioned this on the Bonding Thread, but didn't do so in cyan, so I'll elaborate on the point here as it has relevance to the 2 Cleric Meta.

    The reason for the two cleric meta boils down to Power Share being grossly overpowered and unbalanced when fired through R12 Bonding Runestones, which is a problem caused by Companions Gift triple boosting a Cleric's Power Share.

    Why not try and kill two birds with one stone, and rather than Nerfing things as a reaction to something being overpowered, look at it a different way?

    How about greatly increasing the amount of Power a Cleric can share, but change the way it can BE shared?
    Double the Power Share... but stop it from affecting Companions. Stop all flat stat buffs to companions that are not gained from an item or another companion. Derived stat bonuses could also be allowed. So +3% damage... fine... companion gets it, but +XX POW... it doesn't.

    Just make it like you did with UD Rings... if it says "Does Not Affect Companions" it doen't affect companions. If it doesn't say that... then it does.
    OK... so someone has a lot of cutting and pasting to do but it might jut be worth it to get that part of Companions Gift under control.

    Also make it that only the most effective version of any individual given Power Share skill or power takes effect.
    Instead of nerfing the class, every Cleric becomes instantly more valuable, and a two cleric meta becomes redundant. In fact two clerics in a party would only compete with each other as to who gives the Power Share.

    Then look at giving another class a weaker form of Power Share. (SW maybe?) so it can be added to the clerics', without breaking the game. Again... it would do nothing for companions...

    OK, so some high-end endame players will be unhappy they can't quadruple and double up for high-end endgame content. But if they need (and I mean NEED, not just prefer) that meta to complete said content then possibly the dificulty level needs addressing. Otherwise... suck it up like the rest of the mere mortals.


    I apologise that this is a cross over and if a Mod feels it is better suited to the Bonding Feedback debate feel free to move it there.
  • onodrain
    onodrain Member Posts: 332 Arc User

    Just a fact: right now on preview if you want to access the skirmish random queue you need to have 10k IL. I don't know about the gear progression for new level 70's right now, but my alts still use the alliance set/drowcraft and they are not 10k IL. So, until you have ADs to buy the gear (or pay for it with real money) you are also locked out of skirmishes.

    The 10k IL comes from the mod12B skirmish.

    iLevel 420 is the base for head, chest, hand, feet. If you are active in your guild it is easy to buy the blue pieces. Also, many 420+ drop in dungeons, skirmishes and chult hunts. Get help from a good guild. The guild boons alone will be over 500 gear score. Drowcraft pants and shirt are cheap on AH. Rank 7 enchants are cheap on AH or can be bought with trade bars. Other items are also cheap on the AH. Your chult weapons provide the same stats as the highest level weapons in the game. The difference is their powers. These are great inexpensive weapons. No need to grind elemental weapons. And chult weapons will help you grind RD weapons, if you want them.

    iLevel 420 Chult Boots are also cheap on AH, since they are being fished.

    If you have paid attention and participated in events over the past 4 months, you will have 2 epic mounts. One from the Summer Festival and another from Siege of Neverwinter. Both very easy to get. Blue insignias are relatively cheap thanks to the new lockboxes. Blue mounts can be expensive, but get them when you can and fill them with blue insignias. The mounts do not innately increase your gear score, but all their insignias and your chosen mount powers (equip and combat) add to your gear score.

    Rings from the seals vendor (iLevel 420) are great starter rings. Two slots and good stats. No need to farm the underdark campaign for rings.

    You have 5 active companions. The more epic ones you have, the higher your gear score. All the gear and runestones on your one summoned companion add to your gear score. So properly equip your summoned companion.

    +3 companion gear is relatively cheap or you can easily farm it with Illusionist Gambit Gold groups. If you farm it, you could get +4 companion gear.

    If you are not in a guild, then get into a guild. If you do not have VIP, then get VIP. There is lots of information on VIP and the benefits. Well worth it.
  • onodrain
    onodrain Member Posts: 332 Arc User
    edited September 2017



    Also make it that only the most effective version of any individual given Power Share skill or power takes effect.
    Instead of nerfing the class, every Cleric becomes instantly more valuable, and a two cleric meta becomes redundant. In fact two clerics in a party would only compete with each other as to who gives the Power Share.

    Please learn your power share facts. DC are not the power share gorillas. Power share is not the issue with two DC's. Power share is a ProtOP issue, if it is an issue at all.

    The buffs primarily come from different powers. The DO uses Hallowed Ground (with hugely nerfed recast time) and Terrifying Insight (+20% damage party only) to buff. The AC uses Blessing of Battle (with 15% Power share feat) and Annointed Army (daily) and Hallowed Ground if they can squeeze it in.

    They can both use Bear Your Sins for 10% more damage, but DO is better for that since it procs off DoTs. I do not think this stacks.

    They can both give AP gain if they feat Gift of Haste, Hastening Light to reduce cooldowns, artifact offhand power so give AP gain,

    The only power share they stack is through Weapons of Light, which is only 10% of their power. So you want this power share nerfed? That is seriously silly.

    The main power share comes from Blessing of Battle/Annointed Army buffs and ProtOP Power share (25%, which includes their temp power due to damage taken). ProtOP is really a power share gorilla. DC are used because of all their buff/debuff and power share that stacks.

    The DC is a finely tuned instrument. There are very few variances to the template for DO and AC. You have to pay attention and play the class well to get the benefits.

    I think they should make it so some of the DC powers do not stack with the different Paragon paths unless they are in a Q group of 6 or more. That would solve their meta problem without gutting the class. It is a much more elegant solution.

    ** edit**

    There are two ways to do more damage. Lower defenses of a mob, or increase damage of the players.

    The developers changed the way debuffs to defense work, putting a hard cap on it and a logarithmic smoothing so you can never attain that cap. So the classes that had awesome debuffs got hit hardest with this change.

    Yet they left the increased damage buffs alone. They are on different layers, meaning they multiply their effects, providing undiminished returns.

    That is the crux of the problem.

    Creating a single damage multiplied layer would make these damage multipliers additive instead of multiplicative. It would give them an inherent diminishing return without destroying their use.

    That is a much better solution than trying to nerf individual abilities. Cause the meta works due to the interaction of the 2 DCs with the OP and the GF. The damage multipliers are the main issue IMHO, it is not the 2 DC's.
    Post edited by onodrain on
  • mordekai#1901
    mordekai#1901 Member Posts: 1,598 Arc User
    onodrain said:



    Also make it that only the most effective version of any individual given Power Share skill or power takes effect.
    Instead of nerfing the class, every Cleric becomes instantly more valuable, and a two cleric meta becomes redundant. In fact two clerics in a party would only compete with each other as to who gives the Power Share.

    Please learn your power share facts. DC are not the power share gorillas. Power share is not the issue with two DC's. Power share is a ProtOP issue, if it is an issue at all.

    The buffs primarily come from different powers. The DO uses Hallowed Ground (with hugely nerfed recast time) and Terrifying Insight (+20% damage party only) to buff. The AC uses Blessing of Battle (with 15% Power share feat) and Annointed Army (daily) and Hallowed Ground if they can squeeze it in.

    They can both use Bear Your Sins for 10% more damage, but DO is better for that since it procs off DoTs. I do not think this stacks.

    They can both give AP gain if they feat Gift of Haste, Hastening Light to reduce cooldowns, artifact offhand power so give AP gain,

    The only power share they stack is through Weapons of Light, which is only 10% of their power. So you want this power share nerfed? That is seriously silly.

    The main power share comes from Blessing of Battle (15%) buff and ProtOP Power share (25%, which includes their temp power due to damage taken). ProtOP is really the power share gorilla. DC are used because of all their buff/debuff and smaller power share that stacks.

    The DC is a finely tuned instrument. There are very few variances to the template for DO and AC. You have to pay attention and play the class well to get the benefits.

    I think they should make it so some of the DC powers do not stack with the different Paragon paths unless they are in a Q group of 6 or more. That would solve their meta problem without gutting the class. It is a much more elegant solution.

    ** edit**

    There are two ways to do more damage. Lower defenses of a mob, or increase damage of the players.

    The developers changed the way debuffs to defense work, putting a hard cap on it and a logarithmic smoothing so you can never attain that cap. So the classes that had awesome debuffs got hit hardest with this change.

    Yet they left the increased damage buffs alone. They are on different layers, meaning they multiply their effects, providing undiminished returns.

    That is the crux of the problem.

    Creating a single damage multiplied layer would make these damage multipliers additive instead of multiplicative. It would give them an inherent diminishing return without destroying their use.

    That is a much better solution than trying to nerf individual abilities. Cause the meta works due to the interaction of the 2 DCs with the OP and the GF. The damage multipliers are the main issue IMHO, it is not the 2 DC's.
    Just to be clear, Power Share in and of itself isn't, or shouldn't be, an issue.

    Multiplying Power Share by four when it was clearly not intended to do that... IS.
    If you have an OP kicking out 25% of his Pow fine... if the recipient is getting 100%+ cos R12 Bondings and Legendary Companions... that takes the HAMSTER.
    If a DC is kicking out 40% fine... if the recipient is receiving 160%+... that takes the HAMSTER.

    It's clearly an exploit and has needed closing for ages.
  • spideymt
    spideymt Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 710 Arc User
    araneax said:

    <@spideymt
    sorry...i fixed it.
    For a moment there, my anger got the best of me. Thanks for reminding me. </p>

    NVM araneax,

    i understand your anger. Im not a dev who doesnt care about the anger from the community ^^

  • btairborne
    btairborne Member Posts: 352 Arc User

    onodrain said:



    Also make it that only the most effective version of any individual given Power Share skill or power takes effect.
    Instead of nerfing the class, every Cleric becomes instantly more valuable, and a two cleric meta becomes redundant. In fact two clerics in a party would only compete with each other as to who gives the Power Share.

    Please learn your power share facts. DC are not the power share gorillas. Power share is not the issue with two DC's. Power share is a ProtOP issue, if it is an issue at all.

    The buffs primarily come from different powers. The DO uses Hallowed Ground (with hugely nerfed recast time) and Terrifying Insight (+20% damage party only) to buff. The AC uses Blessing of Battle (with 15% Power share feat) and Annointed Army (daily) and Hallowed Ground if they can squeeze it in.

    They can both use Bear Your Sins for 10% more damage, but DO is better for that since it procs off DoTs. I do not think this stacks.

    They can both give AP gain if they feat Gift of Haste, Hastening Light to reduce cooldowns, artifact offhand power so give AP gain,

    The only power share they stack is through Weapons of Light, which is only 10% of their power. So you want this power share nerfed? That is seriously silly.

    The main power share comes from Blessing of Battle (15%) buff and ProtOP Power share (25%, which includes their temp power due to damage taken). ProtOP is really the power share gorilla. DC are used because of all their buff/debuff and smaller power share that stacks.

    The DC is a finely tuned instrument. There are very few variances to the template for DO and AC. You have to pay attention and play the class well to get the benefits.

    I think they should make it so some of the DC powers do not stack with the different Paragon paths unless they are in a Q group of 6 or more. That would solve their meta problem without gutting the class. It is a much more elegant solution.

    ** edit**

    There are two ways to do more damage. Lower defenses of a mob, or increase damage of the players.

    The developers changed the way debuffs to defense work, putting a hard cap on it and a logarithmic smoothing so you can never attain that cap. So the classes that had awesome debuffs got hit hardest with this change.

    Yet they left the increased damage buffs alone. They are on different layers, meaning they multiply their effects, providing undiminished returns.

    That is the crux of the problem.

    Creating a single damage multiplied layer would make these damage multipliers additive instead of multiplicative. It would give them an inherent diminishing return without destroying their use.

    That is a much better solution than trying to nerf individual abilities. Cause the meta works due to the interaction of the 2 DCs with the OP and the GF. The damage multipliers are the main issue IMHO, it is not the 2 DC's.
    Just to be clear, Power Share in and of itself isn't, or shouldn't be, an issue.

    Multiplying Power Share by four when it was clearly not intended to do that... IS.
    If you have an OP kicking out 25% of his Pow fine... if the recipient is getting 100%+ cos R12 Bondings and Legendary Companions... that takes the HAMSTER.
    If a DC is kicking out 40% fine... if the recipient is receiving 160%+... that takes the HAMSTER.

    It's clearly an exploit and has needed closing for ages.
    It seems to me the game is being designed around it at the highest level, so therefore logically it is not an exploit.
  • oldtimer#7525
    oldtimer#7525 Member Posts: 141 Arc User
    Random queue will be removing a large chunk of AD generation from the game, this is a fact no matter how you spin it and it is a moronic idea but since they are going to do it anyway then it's time for Epic dungeon bosses to have GUARANTEED salvage drops, every single one of them.

    I would also argue that leveling dungeon end bosses should be dropping char bound blue salvage gear up to a certain number per day, maybe 3-4. Players, especially new players, need MORE AD and for LESS TIME and effort. They don't need worthless additions like new player bonuses or more *potential* AD that only goes from potential to maybe actual after months of play.

    And no, saying dumb things like *but the bots* or *your POTENTIAL EARNINGS will be much higher* are not valid arguments. Bots in dungeons was never a thing but they damn well will become a serious thing once everyone is forced to random queue leveling dungeons if they want any AD.

    Yesterday my DC alt hit lv 70, i spent 200k AD on actual gear to get him ready for T1 ELOL farming. Did 3,killed 10 bosses, got ONE boss drop, grabbed 3 chest rewards. Earned 9k AD total including my VIP bonus for 35 mins of playtime. So i'm looking at doing 65-70 epics to even break even on a char that is barely above minimum IL requirement ( 7.7k IL ), assuming i have high level VIP and at least 20 days worth of keys from it.

    And this is with the best possible gear you can realistically expect to obtain as a fresh lv 70 - chult purple gear,chult weapons,some drowcraft all with lv 7 enchants,purple mount and 10 blue insignias,blue augment with rank 8 runestones and 420 IL gear with rank 7s. Not to mention you have zero chance of pugging T1s like this as a DPS character since you won't be seeing any queue pop and you are useless anyway so this will only work for support classes AND you need overgeared teammates to make it at least somewhat efficient.

    During the first few modules there was a thing when it came to running epics - you could realistically and RELIABLY pug for 1-2 different dungeons even on a lower geared character and earn AD to advance at at least a reasonable pace,difficulty did not matter as much since you were always either earning AD or getting a gear drop you can use. Which part of being forced to absolutely be in a guild, always have friends/guildmates available to premade (unless you only play support chars) and run only the easiest content with while needing to be carried all the time and earning less AD for far more effort compared to braindead farming leveling dungeons with any alts you have sounds reasonable to you?

    Make every epic dungeon boss drop at least one piece of salvageable gear along with any other drops so that a proper 3 boss run nets you at least 8k AD without VIP or AD bonuses then begin working on the ridiculous costs of well,everything and the horrible design on most dungeons and you won't ever need a random queue to fill those. Make them all rewarding and of course people will still run what is fastest, easiest and most reliable for AD but other dungeons will also be played since they are not a complete waste of time anymore. Just like you know,the first couple modules when the game was actually good.
  • siegeric
    siegeric Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 41 Arc User
    People forget that the current 2 DC meta isn't 2 AC DCs or 2 DO DCs. Instead, it's the benefit gained from bringing one of each Paragon Path (1 AC DC & 1 DO DC), showing that both paths are viable, which should be the state that all classes get to.

    One option to address the 2 DC model (or the broader support-stacking trend, which the 2 DC model is just a symptom of) is to make all buffs additive rather than having some be multiplicative and apply the same diminishing returns on buffs that they already applied to debuffs. This would include self-buffs and external buffs (they are already doing this in part with the consumables change coming in 12B). It would remove a lot of the synergy that some current class/paragon path combinations can produce, which I would miss, but would address the stacking issue while still preserving class/paragon path identity. You’d see less of the crazy numbers that some people can produce under optimal conditions, but it would come without a direct nerf of any one class and minimal impact, if any, to solo play. It would also provide a more predictable scale for dungeon difficulty because it would provide a rough cap on just how much damage output any one player/class could have. It should also encourage bringing more dps classes to a dungeon run in order to make the run go faster because you would reach a point where bringing more support provided nominal benefit.

    Dungeons would likely need to be re-scaled with such a change so I would encourage substantial player testing rather than just internal dev testing.
  • jaime4312#3760
    jaime4312#3760 Member Posts: 844 Arc User
    edited September 2017
    @araneax

    I didn't expect anyone would get (if even) that worked out for a balance suggestion, calm down mate.

    I see no harm in other support classes and/or endgame content getting tweaks so all support classes or with support options (Mof Rene CW and to a lesser extent, HB SW) offer similar party utility which (I also explained that, if party utility is similar across the board, DC base damage would need a pretty good increase), paired with dps classes having much higher base damage, would make alternative party compositions achieve similar perfomance to the x2 DC + 1/2 supports meta there currently is in live. If you think that's bad, that players of both support and dps classes having more freedom to make groups and to be invited to them is not acceptable then I don't know what to tell you man.

    You get worked out super easily on this topic so I rather stop replying to you on this matter.
  • oldtimer#7525
    oldtimer#7525 Member Posts: 141 Arc User
    So with random queues being forced on the player base ( you can try to defend it whatever way you wish, random queues are LOWERING AD generation in game and fixing nothing, period. ) it's time to rework all garbage dungeons,lower costs on EVERYTHING from zen store to wondrous bazaar and add GUARANTEED salvage drops ( blue on lower tier, purple on higher ) along with any other drops on every single epic dungeon boss.

    I played 3 ELOLs yesterday, spent 3 epic keys on my alt DC and made a total of 9k AD for my troubles VIP bonus included. Had to spend 200k AD to get that fresh char just above pug queue T1 item level with actual good gear AND got carried by overgeared players so was far more efficient than normal, oh and i would never even get to do those runs if i was using a DPS character. Compare this to braindead taking any miserable alt i have to ONE random leveling dungeon after the change and making roughly the same amount of AD in 1/3rd of the time or less.

    There is nothing positive about this change,nothing. And don't even get me started on the leaver penalty, f***ing what are you thinking? Guaranteed salvage drops from dungeons should have been implemented several mods ago with this new random queue garbage they NEED to be put in place already full stop.
  • mamalion1234
    mamalion1234 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 3,379 Arc User
    onodrain said:



    Also make it that only the most effective version of any individual given Power Share skill or power takes effect.
    Instead of nerfing the class, every Cleric becomes instantly more valuable, and a two cleric meta becomes redundant. In fact two clerics in a party would only compete with each other as to who gives the Power Share.

    Please learn your power share facts. DC are not the power share gorillas. Power share is not the issue with two DC's. Power share is a ProtOP issue, if it is an issue at all.

    The buffs primarily come from different powers. The DO uses Hallowed Ground (with hugely nerfed recast time) and Terrifying Insight (+20% damage party only) to buff. The AC uses Blessing of Battle (with 15% Power share feat) and Annointed Army (daily) and Hallowed Ground if they can squeeze it in.

    They can both use Bear Your Sins for 10% more damage, but DO is better for that since it procs off DoTs. I do not think this stacks.

    They can both give AP gain if they feat Gift of Haste, Hastening Light to reduce cooldowns, artifact offhand power so give AP gain,

    The only power share they stack is through Weapons of Light, which is only 10% of their power. So you want this power share nerfed? That is seriously silly.

    The main power share comes from Blessing of Battle/Annointed Army buffs and ProtOP Power share (25%, which includes their temp power due to damage taken). ProtOP is really a power share gorilla. DC are used because of all their buff/debuff and power share that stacks.

    The DC is a finely tuned instrument. There are very few variances to the template for DO and AC. You have to pay attention and play the class well to get the benefits.

    I think they should make it so some of the DC powers do not stack with the different Paragon paths unless they are in a Q group of 6 or more. That would solve their meta problem without gutting the class. It is a much more elegant solution.

    ** edit**

    There are two ways to do more damage. Lower defenses of a mob, or increase damage of the players.

    The developers changed the way debuffs to defense work, putting a hard cap on it and a logarithmic smoothing so you can never attain that cap. So the classes that had awesome debuffs got hit hardest with this change.

    Yet they left the increased damage buffs alone. They are on different layers, meaning they multiply their effects, providing undiminished returns.

    That is the crux of the problem.

    Creating a single damage multiplied layer would make these damage multipliers additive instead of multiplicative. It would give them an inherent diminishing return without destroying their use.

    That is a much better solution than trying to nerf individual abilities. Cause the meta works due to the interaction of the 2 DCs with the OP and the GF. The damage multipliers are the main issue IMHO, it is not the 2 DC's.
    You dont need brand of the sun to proc bear your sins lol. Both can proc it easily.
  • preechr#2215
    preechr#2215 Member Posts: 488 Arc User

    @araneax

    I didn't expect anyone would get (if even) that worked out for a balance suggestion, calm down mate.

    I see no harm in other support classes and/or endgame content getting tweaks so all support classes or with support options (Mof Rene CW and to a lesser extent, HB SW) offer similar party utility which (I also explained that, if party utility is similar across the board, DC base damage would need a pretty good increase), paired with dps classes having much higher base damage, would make alternative party compositions achieve similar perfomance to the x2 DC + 1/2 supports meta there currently is in live. If you think that's bad, that players of both support and dps classes having more freedom to make groups and to be invited to them is not acceptable then I don't know what to tell you man.

    You get worked out super easily on this topic so I rather stop replying to you on this matter.

    Part of the frustration probably comes from the fact that not even a thread that is now about a threat to nerf a class (though it was originally supposed to be about random queues) is safe from SWs moaning about how weak they are, and it really sounds like you were trying to agree with a nerf to another class just to score some brownie points...
    You guys are becoming as bad as pvp goons with derailing nearly every thread
  • darkheart#6758
    darkheart#6758 Member Posts: 274 Arc User
    So 30 pages of replies and only maybe 1 enthusiastic reply of yes I love this change. The rest is people telling the devs good idea, bad implementation.

    Devs response: deal with it. Nice way to listen to your customer base.
This discussion has been closed.