Well, the dps - survivability ratio will always go in the OPs favour as their survivability is very very high. That is of course offset by the fact that they don't challenge strikers for the top spot in dungeon runs - as it should be.
I have no issue with the GF shield, I see it as their equivalent of OP temp health. It's their primary mode of defence, as is HP for the Paladin. I only brought it up in reply to Hyper talking about it.
This thread is actually aimed at both pve & pvp. I haven't played pvp since they brought out drains & wards (I used to play 1-2 hrs per day before that) and I absolutely cannot comment on them in pvp.
My two points were actually:
a. Conqueror feat damage multipliers take it into being a Striker when added together. Does anyone actually disagree with this being the case and if not do they consider it WAI?
b. GFs should have their temp HP mechanics improved. A boost to the feat Take Measure so it provides significantly more HP on a shorter cooldown is more than justified. This would put their tanking ability on a more equal footing with the Paladin.
I would agree that high specced Pallies currently buff better than GF's, but their buffs not only scale as their IL increases, it is also highly dependent on the person they are buffing. To maximise these buffs, both the Pally and the DPS need to be high spec. The GF however has a flat boost regardless of IL/gear (well, since the change on ITF being related to GF DR).
The pally power buff will get hit with a 32% reduction with Bondings next mod and as I also said, I fully expect the devs to remove power sharing via companion soon after, which will reduce it to a mere 25% of what it is now.
As such I believe the buff difference is already in the process of being addressed, I just hope it doesn't drop the paladin into irrelevance again - it took us ages to recover from the Bubble nerf. However, this was never the point or purpose of my comments.
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Xael De Armadeon: DC
Xane De Armadeon: CW
Zen De Armadeon: OP
Zohar De Armadeon: TR
Chrion De Armadeon: SW
Gosti Big Belly: GWF
Barney McRustbucket: GF
Lt. Thackeray: HR
Lucius De Armadeon: BD
I really wanted to abstain from this thread , but unfortunately it calls upon us gf's and as usual a lot of ppl have started with their utter nonsense.. The devs are aware of what needs to be done for gf's and @rgutscheradev nailed it properly when he said those golden words, if ppl have not been paying attention .. then look back at those threads. Gf's have evolved beyond most classes and that's the bitter truth, like i said .. no matter how they swing the changes to a gf it will always be favorable because everyone else like HAMSTER thought ill play the nerf game since i can't get anything more to myself or advocate much to my own class.. The dev who made that statement realised exactly what a tank can do and even if that viewpoint was raised on a pvp thread , it doesn't matter because it extends to everything a guardian fighter should be. I'll tell you this .. i wasn't at all happy with the whole damn exchange program with swordmaster and iron vanguard between gwf's and gf's.. This was the biggest low point in game for me and it was too late for the dev's to realise that they needd to make changes such that both classes are not affected at the same time. Anyways this thread is doomed to reach the lower depths and likewise it's good to get there once in a while to make sure you feel grounded with your emotions. Guardian fighter's will always triumph no matter the odds because even though our little community is less and for the most part all of us know each other and the fotm class hoppers will pop up to take advantage of situations , Rest assured where skill demands itself , we will rise to every opportunity and defend the realms , tbh most ppl here still have not realized the 5 letter word that makes a tank a TANK irrespective of being a conq, prot or tact. i'm hoping there are typo's in my statement else well gfdhjgdfhkjhkdjfgh
Paragraphs good sir, paragraphs would make your post much better, I couldn't get past the 3rd word. Not to be a jerk or anything but yeah, if you want to make a point and make it clear, walls of text are a big no no.
Hahaha , Ahoy there.. i shall try to put in paragraphs to make my horrendous wall of text more readable
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kalina311Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 2,082Arc User
I really wanted to abstain from this thread , but unfortunately it calls upon us gf's and as usual a lot of ppl have started with their utter nonsense.. The devs are aware of what needs to be done for gf's and @rgutscheradev nailed it properly when he said those golden words, if ppl have not been paying attention .. then look back at those threads. Gf's have evolved beyond most classes and that's the bitter truth, like i said .. no matter how they swing the changes to a gf it will always be favorable because everyone else like HAMSTER thought ill play the nerf game since i can't get anything more to myself or advocate much to my own class.. The dev who made that statement realised exactly what a tank can do and even if that viewpoint was raised on a pvp thread , it doesn't matter because it extends to everything a guardian fighter should be. I'll tell you this .. i wasn't at all happy with the whole damn exchange program with swordmaster and iron vanguard between gwf's and gf's.. This was the biggest low point in game for me and it was too late for the dev's to realise that they needd to make changes such that both classes are not affected at the same time. Anyways this thread is doomed to reach the lower depths and likewise it's good to get there once in a while to make sure you feel grounded with your emotions. Guardian fighter's will always triumph no matter the odds because even though our little community is less and for the most part all of us know each other and the fotm class hoppers will pop up to take advantage of situations , Rest assured where skill demands itself , we will rise to every opportunity and defend the realms , tbh most ppl here still have not realized the 5 letter word that makes a tank a TANK irrespective of being a conq, prot or tact. i'm hoping there are typo's in my statement else well gfdhjgdfhkjhkdjfgh
Paragraphs good sir, paragraphs would make your post much better, I couldn't get past the 3rd word. Not to be a jerk or anything but yeah, if you want to make a point and make it clear, walls of text are a big no no.
Hahaha , Ahoy there.. i shall try to put in paragraphs to make my horrendous wall of text more readable
dont feed the troll lol a lot of people have wrote huge paragraphs in here with little regard to grammar as well ..
Making GF a tank again, by toning down its damage, giving it more utility tools and maybe more survivability, will not kill GF. Instead, it will get rid of the many many FoTM GFs who are here defending and/or denying its brokenness. They can go back to playing DPS classes and let others, who want to play as a tank, make GF great again.
A GF can Tank and can DPS but not both at the same time... when will u realise that. pls show me a DPS gf solo tanking TonG and dealing dps. U know a GWF build as Tank can also tank TonG and deal no dmg.
I still cant understand if you are talking in a pvp or pve perspective, if its from pvp i have no opinion since i don't know much about it (only that every class is unfair there from what people say : P ), about pve, as said before if u are below a gf in dps on the paingiver and if u have the same skill and il you are doing something wrong, of course if you are doing an easy dungeon and he runs ahead that's a completely different thing but nonetheless u should be the one ahead, u r a gwf
i guess we can at least agree that GF's damage is strange for a class tagged as tank.. or not? like dps of some other classes is strange for classes tagged as dps. we have to define whats normal dps then...either someone is doing too low damage or others are doing too much. i tend to think GF's damage is not intended to be what it is and some devs kind of agree.
@armadeonx OPs can still hpds on top of everything they do very well, GFs become very dependent on do the actualy tanking as they become so squishy.
I invite you to try what I suggest you to, I don't think you know how squishy a GF becomes if going strictly for dps.
As for your points
A. Conqueror + correct gear grants good dps but you take a heavy blow in survability. I could understand if on top of the dps the GF could still have survability like that of a prot/tac specced GF does, now that would be broken overpowered but that is not the case. If you run in full buff parties with your pally and conqueror GF you know you are the tank as GF effectively becomes almost as squishy as dps classes as it must stop using shield to use its at wills and encounters, if OP loses aggro and GF gets it, unless the team is stacking DR buffs to the moon, the guardian will get instakilled. Like I said, you can transfer enchs to your GF and you'll see survability is low, especially if you try to hps for which you need to play without shield and that will get you 1-2 shotted.
If I was to follow the logic of your argument, I'd argue OP needs either survability or dps to be substantially tonned down as that ratio is off the charts for them, Resurgence has a pve protection paladin called Khaine that hits crazy hard, contact him and compare his dps to yours, you seem not to be aware pally can HDPS as well, pally dps is not far from BiS striker so I wonder, why BiS pally HDPS with great party utility and godly tanking is considered balanced but BiS GF HDPS with lower party utility and significantly inferior tanking are considered overpowered? Either both need to be left alone or both dps trees Justice and Conqueror would need to be nerfed to the ground so in no way shape or form the can hdps. I think they both should be left alone, pally has overall superior utility and perfomance and GF just more personal dps at the cost of being worse at everything else.
B. An increase in the temporary hp given from that feat would still be a drop in the bucket as in edngame content would still be taken out instantly. Tac and protc GF are rather lacking in the utility department, what they offer is nowhere what Justice OP does, I think they need a buff rework so they're better at it, one of the reasons some GFs go Conqueror is that at endgame there's not reason to be tac/prot, they offer less to the party therefore people who want to get the most out of their toons to help their team have no choice but to go Conqueror. If for example devs buffed tac and prot so what they offer to the party rivals or beats what a Conq GF does, that would be cool, you could run endgame knowing you actually are giving your team a meaningful dps boost without being specced for damage dealing, here I would argue those new tac/prot GFs should have superior damage buffs to OP as their personal dps is utter garbage unlike paladins who can hdps.
i guess we can at least agree that GF's damage is strange for a class tagged as tank.. or not? like dps of some other classes is strange for classes tagged as dps. we have to define whats normal dps then...either someone is doing too low damage or others are doing too much. i tend to think GF's damage is not intended to be what it is and some devs kind of agree.
id rather have cryptic to buff tr/sw and other dps classes who need it to GWF or near GWF lvl dmg. This way DPS GFs are again at the bottom in terms of DPS. What defiantone wants is to Nerf GF and let the other classes as they are so GWF can be the only good dps class.
a dps gf is maybe squishier than a tank gf but like all classes going dps it can still press shift a couple of seconds and get damage reduced by 80% something that a sw (to name one but if holds true for my hr to name another class) would love.
"Many many FoTM GF" - Again, GF is the second (third?) lowest population on the server, the majority are still tank/buff specc'd and there are only about a handful of Good dps GFs.
Those dps GFs run in groups with actual tanks in end-game dungeons like an OP because they CANNOT tank + dps at the same time.
My dps GF is squishier than my GWF and does on top less damage in total.
i guess we can at least agree that GF's damage is strange for a class tagged as tank.. or not? like dps of some other classes is strange for classes tagged as dps. we have to define whats normal dps then...either someone is doing too low damage or others are doing too much. i tend to think GF's damage is not intended to be what it is and some devs kind of agree.
id rather have cryptic to buff tr/sw and other dps classes who need it to GWF or near GWF lvl dmg. This way DPS GFs are again at the bottom in terms of DPS. What defiantone wants is to Nerf GF and let the other classes as they are so GWF can be the only good dps class.
I don't think that, besides TR and SW (especially the poor SW), other dps classes need buffing, CW and HR are dps gods already, no need to make them more powerful, heck, a few of CW powers don't even have a target cap. @terramak SW has been totally overnered and needs to be looked at, the changes to OBC further worsen that problem, the class desperately needs a rework.
@rayrdan if specced for hpds even with shield up you'll take massive damage. Like I suggested armadeon, you can try that too if you don't believe me, transfer enchs form your HR to your GF (if you have one) and go for the highest dps output possible then try t3 stuff, there you'll have your answer.
I'm a SW and I like shadowslip, some times it can get me killed when near cliffs + party speed buffs (it moves like a Ferrari lol), I definitely feel more comfortable with my SW shadowslip than with GF shield. The other day a friend suggested me to try getting more dps out of my GF so for curiosity's sake transfered all the brutals from my SW and did a few gear changes here and there, it was horrible, I was getting murdered through the shield like it was nothing, trying to achieve max dps possible with available gear left me at like 32% DR or so, I put the enchs back on my SW shortly afterwards. Needless to say, many of the taken hits with the shield down where an instakill for me.
I'm asking again, why people are okay with hdps paladin with superb party utility but against hdps gf decent party utility? Paladin does overall offer more to the party on top of being far better at tanking, it can even heal o.O
80% damage reduction is the max reduction you can have.. massive or not is the same damage a tank gf will suffer. about paladins: i know pvp paladins can dish out a suspicious amount of dps but i never saw a paladins in pve compete for paingiver
I can say this about gf dps...you can either have it and be a glass cannon, or be a tank and have low dps. A perfect example on ps4- in the chult, in my dps loadout dishing out damage and nuking packs of dinos is easy, staying alive is harder, but we have some abilities and insignias to help keep us up. In this loadout keeping your shield up only last a few seconds before stamina is out and you have low defense so the damage hitting you is more substantial.
In my tank loadout, packs barely hurt, I can keep my shield up for a minute it seems, but dishing out damage is chore. Itf barely helps, weapon masters strike barely tickles, and killing that same pack became a 3 minute ordeal of staring at life bars going down 1% at a time. I wonder how I managed to even complete older campaigns before loadouts and be expected to help tank guild runs on a moments notice.
Bottom line is, you can have one or the other. I see no problem with that. I have seen no one build for GF that does it all. If a GF has spent the time and resources to have these different builds (which are o so very gear dependent ) then cool, go do it. But its a shame people come here to tell us our class, which has been nerfed to hell and back, is unfair.
80% damage reduction is the max reduction you can have.. massive or not is the same damage a tank gf will suffer. about paladins: i know pvp paladins can dish out a suspicious amount of dps but i never saw a paladins in pve compete for paingiver
Get on your GF and go to t3 with a conqueror build then with a tank one then come back here and tell me if they take the same damage, that comment you made that dps gf takes the same damage as tank gf couldn't be more wrong. Like I told armadeon, try it yourself.
To put you in context, you just told me "Archer HR is just as tanky as Combat HR at 100% deflection chance, 60% deflect severity and wilds medicine"
There aren't many powerful paladins out there hence why it tends to be so underrated when it comes to dps, they can hit very hard in both pve and pvp.
@jaime4312#3760 lol actually I do, my GF runs a conqueror build when soloing, he can't take nearly as much damage as my OP. I really don't need to do a comparison to learn that.
However, even though FBI is soloable by BiS Paladins, I have yet to see one of them complete it in less than 3 hours - even with 100% crit, running a Vorpal and Orcus set (the current bis dps OP build).
But as I said previously, the OP will be hit hardest next mod by the Bonding nerf as it relies more heavily on companion power sharing than any other class for its core abilities - your friend Khaine (along with myself) will receive a significant drop in our ability to buff ourselves. Most players when self buffed receive around 12k power via bondings - the pally gets around 50-60k.
So others will lose about 4k but the pally will drop by up to 20k. Power is the only stat that boosts temp HP gain so this will also reduce our survivability (& threat generation).
On the subject of the Justice tree; we have a total of 'one' significant damage multiplier - the capstone which gives a 35% buff. The rest are mostly group buffs for movement, cooldowns & healing as Justice is actually the Buff tree and apart from the capstone is actually most similar to the GF Tac tree.
Conqueror on the other hand has: 25% +5% +20%/10% (SC) +15%, plus individual increases on some other specific powers and is all about solo damage.
I get your point, you're saying that if they want to play for DPS and can handle it then why shouldn't they. Well, I guess the only answer I can think of to that would be; lets give all of the other classes a dodge mechanic that blocks 80% of incoming damage and everyone can be striker-tanks lol. Hey, at least you'll get no more complaints
Please Do Not Feed The Trolls
Xael De Armadeon: DC
Xane De Armadeon: CW
Zen De Armadeon: OP
Zohar De Armadeon: TR
Chrion De Armadeon: SW
Gosti Big Belly: GWF
Barney McRustbucket: GF
Lt. Thackeray: HR
Lucius De Armadeon: BD
Xael De Armadeon: DC
Xane De Armadeon: CW
Zen De Armadeon: OP
Zohar De Armadeon: TR
Chrion De Armadeon: SW
Gosti Big Belly: GWF
Barney McRustbucket: GF
Lt. Thackeray: HR
Lucius De Armadeon: BD
> @defiantone99 said: > No, they do not want that. They actually want to nerf GWF DR, TR's ITC, CW's shield, DC's Gift of Faith and other powers (they got Astral Shield nerfed), HR's deflect, OP's temp HP. Hahahaha!
I run the gf as a pure tank 1loadout, yes its slow doing solo content thats why we need some dps, the devs are naking the right choice and thats why nothings been changed. Dont that tell you something
Look Calina you jumped onto trolls thread faster than a cat jumping on a fresh fish. You started the semantics what you said and what not.You did not said you disagree ,you did not said you agree either.But participating in such a thread,a high caliber Cw as yourself,has its own weight.And you indirectly put your weight into defiants side.
I will not answer to your rest of your points cause we will get out of topic. i never inspect anyone except another GFs and these are counted in the fingers of a hand.I inspect @jumpingmorks,from time to time :P @grimah and others(a spesific guild Gf that has 35k more stats than me with out augment or bondings,both rank12) if i find them next to me or if i run with them.The best builds and players are most of the time found on mid geared ,small guild players .But this is the discussion for another thread of how the "meta' is most of the time a pile of garbage .
Armadeonx said :
" you didn't address my main concern about damage multipliers on the Conqueror path for GF and how they can layer together into very high damage."
You fail to mention that practically Op has no cooldowns cause of Justice treecap stone ,plus echoes of Light.that -you know-procs more than a mere 5 %.So you can spam encounters faster than a Gf.So that balances out.What about te scaled Aura of Courage?conveniently you left it out.
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"I also pointed out that even though OPs spec for damage they still only average 40-70% of the dps of striker classes at equal IL."
And how much a DPS Gf will do in a tong run vs a bis Hr or GWF?yet you complain all the time.
You fail to mention the passive ,non skill required abilities of OP.this allows him to do things while Gf turtles behind his shield or dies.The off hand daze ability for example.
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"Conqueror feat damage multipliers take it into being a Striker when added together. Does anyone actually disagree with this being the case and if not do they consider it WAI?"
It is.Conq tree is a Striker tree since alpha.,GF was designed that way.Going to argue about "Gf is tank" makes you another of WoW teen crowd that migrated here and use obscure,non DnD terms.this is not WoW.Guardian FIGHTER has a striekr tree ,the Conquerror one.Read its description.It does not mention anything about utility or what ever it mentions deals high damage etc etc...
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"As such I believe the buff difference is already in the process of being addressed, I just hope it doesn't drop the paladin into irrelevance again "
It is not problem of the Gf community that majority of the Ops are bad.Radiant champion,powershare,echoes of light,bane,shield of faith ,aura of courage ,aura of wisdom were already there,not our problem that you were crying in ages about bubble nerf nor was our problem that 99% of Ops did not know to execute the Binding oath,templas wrath rotation."we cannot tank!!!! Gf is superior!!"
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"However, even though FBI is soloable by BiS Paladins, I have yet to see one of them complete it in less than 3 hours "
Why,has a Gf soloed in less than 3 hours?Comparison is moot.
"the OP will be hit hardest next mod"
When it will hit you can post suggestions.participating in GF nerf threads prior to that ,is masquerading your true agenda.
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"On the subject of the Justice tree; we have a total of 'one' significant damage multiplier - the capstone which gives a 35% buff. "
fail to mention again the 35% recharge reduction.it is huge.recharge reduction=more encounters=more encounters more damage=more damage =more temp hp,more Ap=more SoF uptime ,more aggresive play.
"lets give all of the other classes a dodge mechanic that blocks 80% of incoming damage and everyone can be striker-tanks lol"
I say lets give all other classes free power as your class have,free recharge as your class have,free defense through temp hp as your class have ,and free damge from passive auras that your class have
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"Lol yeah I got the OP thing "
You got a warning shot \o/ (and nothing personal by the way man )
It is obvious that DPS GF has taken on a religious significance for many. There is no use debating it any longer in this thread, you can't win that kind of debate with any kind of reasoned thinking. Hopefully the devs look at both sides and make the right choice, to make GF a tank again.
It is obvious that the DPS dominance of GWF has taken on a religious significance for many. There is no use debating it any longer in this thread, you can't win that kind of debate with any kind of reasoned thinking. Hopefully the devs look at both sides and make the right choice, to make GWF a squishy striker again.
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santralafaxMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 2,896Arc User
It is obvious that DPS GF has taken on a religious significance for many. There is no use debating it any longer in this thread, you can't win that kind of debate with any kind of reasoned thinking. Hopefully the devs look at both sides and make the right choice, to make GF a tank again.
It is obvious that the DPS dominance of GWF has taken on a religious significance for many. There is no use debating it any longer in this thread, you can't win that kind of debate with any kind of reasoned thinking. Hopefully the devs look at both sides and make the right choice, to make GWF a squishy striker again.
Hey, I main a GWF, and also run GF and CW. I disavow posts by DefiantOne. Take this up with him. Enough blatant nerfs are coming down around our heads as it is.
I really don't believe this nerf thread has been allowed to continue for 4 pages! Why hasn't it been closed???
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I don't know you, but I do know when I see a post from you I expect it to be a "nerf GF" post in some form or another haha
Well, the dps - survivability ratio will always go in the OPs favour as their survivability is very very high. That is of course offset by the fact that they don't challenge strikers for the top spot in dungeon runs - as it should be.
I have no issue with the GF shield, I see it as their equivalent of OP temp health. It's their primary mode of defence, as is HP for the Paladin. I only brought it up in reply to Hyper talking about it.
This thread is actually aimed at both pve & pvp. I haven't played pvp since they brought out drains & wards (I used to play 1-2 hrs per day before that) and I absolutely cannot comment on them in pvp.
My two points were actually:
a. Conqueror feat damage multipliers take it into being a Striker when added together. Does anyone actually disagree with this being the case and if not do they consider it WAI?
b. GFs should have their temp HP mechanics improved. A boost to the feat Take Measure so it provides significantly more HP on a shorter cooldown is more than justified. This would put their tanking ability on a more equal footing with the Paladin.
I would agree that high specced Pallies currently buff better than GF's, but their buffs not only scale as their IL increases, it is also highly dependent on the person they are buffing. To maximise these buffs, both the Pally and the DPS need to be high spec. The GF however has a flat boost regardless of IL/gear (well, since the change on ITF being related to GF DR).
The pally power buff will get hit with a 32% reduction with Bondings next mod and as I also said, I fully expect the devs to remove power sharing via companion soon after, which will reduce it to a mere 25% of what it is now.
As such I believe the buff difference is already in the process of being addressed, I just hope it doesn't drop the paladin into irrelevance again - it took us ages to recover from the Bubble nerf. However, this was never the point or purpose of my comments.
Xael De Armadeon: DC
Xane De Armadeon: CW
Zen De Armadeon: OP
Zohar De Armadeon: TR
Chrion De Armadeon: SW
Gosti Big Belly: GWF
Barney McRustbucket: GF
Lt. Thackeray: HR
Lucius De Armadeon: BD
Member of Casual Dailies - XBox
we have to define whats normal dps then...either someone is doing too low damage or others are doing too much.
i tend to think GF's damage is not intended to be what it is and some devs kind of agree.
I invite you to try what I suggest you to, I don't think you know how squishy a GF becomes if going strictly for dps.
As for your points
A. Conqueror + correct gear grants good dps but you take a heavy blow in survability. I could understand if on top of the dps the GF could still have survability like that of a prot/tac specced GF does, now that would be broken overpowered but that is not the case. If you run in full buff parties with your pally and conqueror GF you know you are the tank as GF effectively becomes almost as squishy as dps classes as it must stop using shield to use its at wills and encounters, if OP loses aggro and GF gets it, unless the team is stacking DR buffs to the moon, the guardian will get instakilled. Like I said, you can transfer enchs to your GF and you'll see survability is low, especially if you try to hps for which you need to play without shield and that will get you 1-2 shotted.
If I was to follow the logic of your argument, I'd argue OP needs either survability or dps to be substantially tonned down as that ratio is off the charts for them, Resurgence has a pve protection paladin called Khaine that hits crazy hard, contact him and compare his dps to yours, you seem not to be aware pally can HDPS as well, pally dps is not far from BiS striker so I wonder, why BiS pally HDPS with great party utility and godly tanking is considered balanced but BiS GF HDPS with lower party utility and significantly inferior tanking are considered overpowered? Either both need to be left alone or both dps trees Justice and Conqueror would need to be nerfed to the ground so in no way shape or form the can hdps. I think they both should be left alone, pally has overall superior utility and perfomance and GF just more personal dps at the cost of being worse at everything else.
B. An increase in the temporary hp given from that feat would still be a drop in the bucket as in edngame content would still be taken out instantly. Tac and protc GF are rather lacking in the utility department, what they offer is nowhere what Justice OP does, I think they need a buff rework so they're better at it, one of the reasons some GFs go Conqueror is that at endgame there's not reason to be tac/prot, they offer less to the party therefore people who want to get the most out of their toons to help their team have no choice but to go Conqueror. If for example devs buffed tac and prot so what they offer to the party rivals or beats what a Conq GF does, that would be cool, you could run endgame knowing you actually are giving your team a meaningful dps boost without being specced for damage dealing, here I would argue those new tac/prot GFs should have superior damage buffs to OP as their personal dps is utter garbage unlike paladins who can hdps.
@rayrdan if specced for hpds even with shield up you'll take massive damage. Like I suggested armadeon, you can try that too if you don't believe me, transfer enchs form your HR to your GF (if you have one) and go for the highest dps output possible then try t3 stuff, there you'll have your answer.
I'm a SW and I like shadowslip, some times it can get me killed when near cliffs + party speed buffs (it moves like a Ferrari lol), I definitely feel more comfortable with my SW shadowslip than with GF shield. The other day a friend suggested me to try getting more dps out of my GF so for curiosity's sake transfered all the brutals from my SW and did a few gear changes here and there, it was horrible, I was getting murdered through the shield like it was nothing, trying to achieve max dps possible with available gear left me at like 32% DR or so, I put the enchs back on my SW shortly afterwards. Needless to say, many of the taken hits with the shield down where an instakill for me.
I'm asking again, why people are okay with hdps paladin with superb party utility but against hdps gf decent party utility? Paladin does overall offer more to the party on top of being far better at tanking, it can even heal o.O
80% damage reduction is the max reduction you can have.. massive or not is the same damage a tank gf will suffer.
about paladins: i know pvp paladins can dish out a suspicious amount of dps but i never saw a paladins in pve compete for paingiver
In my tank loadout, packs barely hurt, I can keep my shield up for a minute it seems, but dishing out damage is chore. Itf barely helps, weapon masters strike barely tickles, and killing that same pack became a 3 minute ordeal of staring at life bars going down 1% at a time. I wonder how I managed to even complete older campaigns before loadouts and be expected to help tank guild runs on a moments notice.
Bottom line is, you can have one or the other. I see no problem with that. I have seen no one build for GF that does it all. If a GF has spent the time and resources to have these different builds (which are o so very gear dependent ) then cool, go do it. But its a shame people come here to tell us our class, which has been nerfed to hell and back, is unfair.
To put you in context, you just told me "Archer HR is just as tanky as Combat HR at 100% deflection chance, 60% deflect severity and wilds medicine"
There aren't many powerful paladins out there hence why it tends to be so underrated when it comes to dps, they can hit very hard in both pve and pvp.
However, even though FBI is soloable by BiS Paladins, I have yet to see one of them complete it in less than 3 hours - even with 100% crit, running a Vorpal and Orcus set (the current bis dps OP build).
But as I said previously, the OP will be hit hardest next mod by the Bonding nerf as it relies more heavily on companion power sharing than any other class for its core abilities - your friend Khaine (along with myself) will receive a significant drop in our ability to buff ourselves. Most players when self buffed receive around 12k power via bondings - the pally gets around 50-60k.
So others will lose about 4k but the pally will drop by up to 20k. Power is the only stat that boosts temp HP gain so this will also reduce our survivability (& threat generation).
On the subject of the Justice tree; we have a total of 'one' significant damage multiplier - the capstone which gives a 35% buff.
The rest are mostly group buffs for movement, cooldowns & healing as Justice is actually the Buff tree and apart from the capstone is actually most similar to the GF Tac tree.
Conqueror on the other hand has: 25% +5% +20%/10% (SC) +15%, plus individual increases on some other specific powers and is all about solo damage.
I get your point, you're saying that if they want to play for DPS and can handle it then why shouldn't they. Well, I guess the only answer I can think of to that would be; lets give all of the other classes a dodge mechanic that blocks 80% of incoming damage and everyone can be striker-tanks lol. Hey, at least you'll get no more complaints
Xael De Armadeon: DC
Xane De Armadeon: CW
Zen De Armadeon: OP
Zohar De Armadeon: TR
Chrion De Armadeon: SW
Gosti Big Belly: GWF
Barney McRustbucket: GF
Lt. Thackeray: HR
Lucius De Armadeon: BD
Member of Casual Dailies - XBox
Xael De Armadeon: DC
Xane De Armadeon: CW
Zen De Armadeon: OP
Zohar De Armadeon: TR
Chrion De Armadeon: SW
Gosti Big Belly: GWF
Barney McRustbucket: GF
Lt. Thackeray: HR
Lucius De Armadeon: BD
Member of Casual Dailies - XBox
> No, they do not want that. They actually want to nerf GWF DR, TR's ITC, CW's shield, DC's Gift of Faith and other powers (they got Astral Shield nerfed), HR's deflect, OP's temp HP. Hahahaha!
My AS nerfed twice...
Dont that tell you something
You started the semantics what you said and what not.You did not said you disagree ,you did not said you agree either.But participating in such a thread,a high caliber Cw as yourself,has its own weight.And you indirectly put your weight into defiants side.
I will not answer to your rest of your points cause we will get out of topic.
i never inspect anyone except another GFs and these are counted in the fingers of a hand.I inspect @jumpingmorks,from time to time :P @grimah and others(a spesific guild Gf that has 35k more stats than me with out augment or bondings,both rank12) if i find them next to me or if i run with them.The best builds and players are most of the time found on mid geared ,small guild players .But this is the discussion for another thread of how the "meta' is most of the time a pile of garbage .
Armadeonx said :
" you didn't address my main concern about damage multipliers on the Conqueror path for GF and how they can layer together into very high damage."
You fail to mention that practically Op has no cooldowns cause of Justice treecap stone ,plus echoes of Light.that -you know-procs more than a mere 5 %.So you can spam encounters faster than a Gf.So that balances out.What about te scaled Aura of Courage?conveniently you left it out.
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"I also pointed out that even though OPs spec for damage they still only average 40-70% of the dps of striker classes at equal IL."
And how much a DPS Gf will do in a tong run vs a bis Hr or GWF?yet you complain all the time.
You fail to mention the passive ,non skill required abilities of OP.this allows him to do things while Gf turtles behind his shield or dies.The off hand daze ability for example.
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"Conqueror feat damage multipliers take it into being a Striker when added together. Does anyone actually disagree with this being the case and if not do they consider it WAI?"
It is.Conq tree is a Striker tree since alpha.,GF was designed that way.Going to argue about "Gf is tank" makes you another of WoW teen crowd that migrated here and use obscure,non DnD terms.this is not WoW.Guardian FIGHTER has a striekr tree ,the Conquerror one.Read its description.It does not mention anything about utility or what ever it mentions deals high damage etc etc...
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"As such I believe the buff difference is already in the process of being addressed, I just hope it doesn't drop the paladin into irrelevance again "
It is not problem of the Gf community that majority of the Ops are bad.Radiant champion,powershare,echoes of light,bane,shield of faith ,aura of courage ,aura of wisdom were already there,not our problem that you were crying in ages about bubble nerf nor was our problem that 99% of Ops did not know to execute the Binding oath,templas wrath rotation."we cannot tank!!!! Gf is superior!!"
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"However, even though FBI is soloable by BiS Paladins, I have yet to see one of them complete it in less than 3 hours "
Why,has a Gf soloed in less than 3 hours?Comparison is moot.
"the OP will be hit hardest next mod"
When it will hit you can post suggestions.participating in GF nerf threads prior to that ,is masquerading your true agenda.
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"On the subject of the Justice tree; we have a total of 'one' significant damage multiplier - the capstone which gives a 35% buff. "
fail to mention again the 35% recharge reduction.it is huge.recharge reduction=more encounters=more encounters more damage=more damage =more temp hp,more Ap=more SoF uptime ,more aggresive play.
"lets give all of the other classes a dodge mechanic that blocks 80% of incoming damage and everyone can be striker-tanks lol"
I say lets give all other classes free power as your class have,free recharge as your class have,free defense through temp hp as your class have ,and free damge from passive auras that your class have
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"Lol yeah I got the OP thing "
You got a warning shot
Cheers
It is obvious that the DPS dominance of GWF has taken on a religious significance for many. There is no use debating it any longer in this thread, you can't win that kind of debate with any kind of reasoned thinking. Hopefully the devs look at both sides and make the right choice, to make GWF a squishy striker again.
I really don't believe this nerf thread has been allowed to continue for 4 pages! Why hasn't it been closed???