60% armor pen reduction 40% critical severity mitigation 40% damage mitigation 50% reduction in healing from all sources (Direct heals, HOTs, Lifesteal, etc.)
I'm sorry, how SW's will survive? we haven't much defense or parry (how tanks or TR, HR have), no special damage resistance, no Temp HP, almost no immune, almost no control... So SW is dead class. You broke our bargain - its a trash now, and now you reduce a vampir?
#UP_SW
"sometimes the world doesn't need another hero, sometimes what it needs is a monster"
> The Bullcharge prone needs to be removed. There needs to be a huge reduction in the base damage of GF, and/or Fighter's Recovery needs to be removed or drastically lowered, and Shield needs to be cut to around 20% RID for Conqueror. There have to be trade-offs, every class has them, except GF. When players choose a TANK class, to only play DPS, you know there is a problem.
>
> That is ABSOLUTELY CORRECT, that's why I play a GF now in pvp I tried all classes except CW,and none were even close,GFs are good with even crappy gear and hardly any campaign boons it's just so silly,I mean is it just gonna stay this stupid,I really do think it is ,because it's been this way for a good long while now,no sense in even rolling a different toon if you predominantly want to PVP I mean that's it! Basically GF or bust,and now everyone is like" Nerf Nerf Nerf TR smoke bomb and courage breaker oh my God it's just so crazy I actually seen a TR kill a GF today it was like so unbelievable"wtf gtfoh.
>
> You forgot, they also want to nerf ITC and deflect severity, and remove perma-stealth as well.
Itc got nerfed. In the past you would take 0 damage in a tabbed itc, and with this could walk out in lava to revive allies. After The NERF to itc, if you died a tr wouldn't try to revive you anymore in those hard to reach places.
Permanent stealth also had it's nerf, because now at wills drain stealth.
So let me get this straight you think Gf block which is frontal absorbs to much damage and defend perma stealth/itc, perma moke and endless CB topped with broken SOD - I think we all can see your agenda seem legit lolz....
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kalina311Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 2,082Arc User
edited September 2017
just give tr the reveal/de stealths when ever they attack again meta like it was once briefly then all their powers are fine cause then at least an ally /they arriving has a chance to attack ..oh wait itc and deflection and deflection severity...and huge dodge rolls / movement
would all Tr powers and dailies be ok/ in line if the stealth attack/ reveal were brought back ?
There are not enough nerfs that can be done to TR to make these guys quit crying. It is just that they want an easy mark. It is called forum PVP - if you can't beat them fairly, cry for nerfs. It is also a bit of deflection, keep us talking about TR instead of GF.
Yep because 1000nd pvpers postings are wrong and you are right that sums it up aboutish....
Being able to fight invisible with a skill called HIDE, dissapearing in plain view with a skill called hide and keep attacking is norm in pvp. Adding spamming ITC and smoke with 85% deflect severity and huge dodges making for immortality and you talk about BEAT THEM FAIRLY !!!! and then talk about Gf being able to take to much damage while blocking FRONTAL attacks...
Keep the cape and T-shirt you can add a picture of a Troll on them now.....
Edit-typo
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kalina311Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 2,082Arc User
edited September 2017
hmm every one seems to forget that for many mods the gf had a secret buff in thier code every 20 seconds giving a huge dps boost as well ..wonder if some of that code is still around..
why did they have they secret buff? because as a tank defender class the devs felt they needed the "ocational dps buff to clear solo content / do dailies but not have it tied directing to any powers/feats giving huge dps or interfere with his tank aggro defender roll (there was not enough stats to spread around into crit and damage/armor pen back then if you wanted to tank ... ..it was only chancy random burst dps every 20 seconds very balanced..this is way before huge stats inflation that made classes bleed into other rolls .. .. ...this was the original neverwinter gf design folks.. I been saving that little easter egg lol now tell me the gf is not out of his roll and overpowered on burst exactly like the Dev said ..
hmm every one seems to forget that for many mods the gf had a secret buff in thier code every 20 seconds giving a huge dps boost as well ..wonder if some of that code is still around..
why did they have they secret buff? because as a tank defender class the devs felt they needed the "ocational dps buff to clear solo content / do dailies but not have it tied directing to any powers/feats giving huge dps or interfere with his tank aggro defender roll (there was not enough stats to spread around into crit and damage/armor pen back then if you wanted to tank ... ..it was only chancy random burst dps every 20 seconds very balanced..this is way before huge stats inflation that made classes bleed into other rolls .. .. ...this was the original neverwinter gf design folks.. I been saving that little easter egg lol now tell me the gf is not out of his roll and overpowered on burst exactly like the Dev said ..
Never heared of ) need to test will do a 5 min test with act and come back. If that is the case it need to go in pvp not sure it is a bad thing in pve
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kalina311Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 2,082Arc User
edited September 2017
exacly most people never knew or heard of it/ every 20 second the gf got a buff .. up till at least mod 8-10 the gf had a hidden buff in thier code that the devs had a hard time tracking / did not even know it was there ..cause the original devs were gone.... maybe some of the code is back as well /still there ..sure its burred somewhere e in some old patch notes ..
Stop derailing the discussion. Devs have already said that they weren't happy about GF's burst dmg and would be looking into it.
Now back to CC. I've said it once but I'll say it again: it's game breaking and would cause immense class imbalance.
1. The CC immunity is implemented to allow people to break free from a serious CC fest, but now 4 stacks can be easily applied even if the opponent isn't using a heavy CC build. This kills classes that rely almost exclusively on CC to do damage regardless of builds (i.e. CW).
2. Tanks/healers will be immortal. Some already are practically immortal against multiple geared players, and can only be killed by chain CC + lucky burst dmg. With easily acquired CC immunity, they could heal/tank uninterruptedly, making them even more impossible to kill.
For the reasons above I'd suggest the following:
1. More stacks are required for CC immunity. I'd say around 6 stacks; this still allows people to break free from a CC spam while preventing excessive CC immunity.
2. Stacks last (much) shorter and stacks must be reacquired after CC immunity. Again, the CC immunity is to allow people to briefly break free from a dire situation, not to provide a continuous CC protection. Therefore, it should last much shorter, ideally 2-3 seconds top.
In addition, all the stacks should disappear once the CC immunity time frame is over such that they can't maintain having CC immunity indefinitely.
2. Differential stack application depending on the CC type. Obviously a knockdown from bullcharge is a much stronger CC than a microdaze from HR's root. It wouldn't be fair to treat them equally. Knockdown should either apply more stacks or should have its duration shortened by CC resist like every other CC.
As you say, tanks and healers are pretty much immortal WITH cc, so I see no real logic behind sacrificing what would be a huge boost to other classes' fun threshold in average pvp, to preserve a chance to kill a bis DC/tank in premades.
PvP has been dying of bis premades for years. Anything that a) broadens the playerbase and b) allows them to have more fun in PvP i.e.. not being perma-cc'd to death routinely, is a thing to be wholeheartedly applauded.
When mod 12b drops, I'm gonna solo q in full pve gear, and unleash merry hell.
No idea what my toon is now.
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kalina311Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 2,082Arc User
As you say, tanks and healers are pretty much immortal WITH cc, so I see no real logic behind sacrificing what would be a huge boost to other classes' fun threshold in average pvp, to preserve a chance to kill a bis DC/tank in premades.
PvP has been dying of bis premades for years. Anything that a) broadens the playerbase and b) allows them to have more fun in PvP i.e.. not being perma-cc'd to death routinely, is a thing to be wholeheartedly applauded.
When mod 12b drops, I'm gonna solo q in full pve gear, and unleash merry hell.
how about the logic being no more "flavors of the month" no one SHOULD BE IMMORTAL
for me any 1 v 1 in a similar gear spectrum within lets say 20% ITem level should be 3- 5 rotations of anything max then some on should die in AROUND 30-40 seconds ..and some one should be at low heath ~ 20-30%
a 2 v 1 same criteria ..you being 2 v1ed should die with in 20-30 seconds with 2 people attacking if you dont strategically retreat or go off node ..
3 v 1 should die in 15-25 seconds max ,.,,
this is how pvp should be you CAN adjust the seconds or time frame but some one should be extremely uncomfortable in a 2 v 1 an fighting for thier life in a 3 v 1 ...cc immunity should be useless anyways(pure semantics ) if you are being 3 v1 because you should / will die from one form of damage or another ...
i dont care who you are or what class you are
if the player dies to cc or die to major dps or whatever form no matter... but they have to die reagrdless of any "percived or actual cc immunities"
this has nothing to do with fun threshold if certain classes wont die no matter what and WITH THIS NEW cc SYSTEM you are not even permitted to perform even 1 rotation on some one IF they have cc immunity from someone else already and you were not even attacking them before ..making a lot of pve cc builds that go to pvp usless as well
so dc/ tanks get to have thier "fun theshold" but other classes not with thier toys / abilities
everybody should be allowed to get a few rotations orf any type in on a fresh opponent that they have not attacked in awhile ..yet pvp has become too defensive.. even the "best players" need to start getting a few deaths per match
the cleric pally or a pillar character is protecting his whole team and strategically they need to be valid targets as well not having player think .. oh he is immortal therefore i am going to ignore him and not have strategies to take him out cause its impossible .. and focus on "weaker Squishier classes" but still be unable to get the node cause they are being kept alive by something you cant take out cause 1 brief cc moment wont do it from 1 player with no one else co ordinating
no class in the game should be able to 3 v 1 indefinitely they should be at low or critical heath .. needing an artifact or potion within a few rotationS of 3 attacker NO MATTER WHAT
who cares if people think they were troll or cc locked or could not move or could not do anything that the idea if you are overwhelmed by similar gear opponents you should die cced to death bursted to death proned chained whatever regardless of perceived damage type or the reason why
this is from my "HUMBLE" perspective of tens of thousands of matches played .
the only part the dev have somewhat right with the cc changes is that they are ok for 1 v 1 cc spamming from annoying classes and powers .. but thier new CC system is far from balanced for multiple attackers at once and immunity and partial immunity frames are too long and reset too fast ..however this might rquire coding flag for every power in the game to indicate how much they should add to the CC resist o meter based on how much of a control impact they have vis avis CC spammynness
Sure, this is your humble opinion from a 1000 matches played mainly I guess, as just about the best pvp cw in the game, in matches with similarly amazingly geared and finely tuned toons.
Who cares tbh. for your bog standard, "Oh yeah I like a bit of pvp." Player, pvp is a horrible mess of c.c. and in that light, coming across the odd unkillable dc/op is the absolute least of their worries.
If there were a whole new tier of average pvpers, sub-bis, like there used to be back in the early days, when pvp queues popped in seconds, these immortals would comprise 0.001 etc. percent of a problem. For them. You however, if you go back to the luxury of arranged matches, would have a problem. But then, this becomes a case of "the needs of the many" etc.
Nuke cc, tweak DCs and OPs ONLY IN PVP, and see what happens. CC is the bigger problem, simple as that.
No idea what my toon is now.
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kalina311Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 2,082Arc User
umm at least half my matches i was not best in slot and i was not in a premade..or even in a pvp guild for that matter i started in low and mid grade pug matches just like everyone else .. that is the perspective i am comming from i know the "feel" of pvp dynamics and the flow and how it felt in earlier mods where you could still threaten and hurt someone of higher gear then and certainly kill them if three weaker guys teamed up
also i would have no problem with the "luxury of arranged matches either" i would welcome it also i already have a SECRET CW build for next mod even if CC is nerfed and stays as it is : D
ya lets get some more players involved +1
also tho certain weaker / lower items level players / classes can build more easily/effectively for cc then for dps tho .. certain powers have almost the same duration / effect regardless of player item level and tho are more favoured if you are weaker.. by nerfing cc (and not even letting a player use 1 combo reliably ) players cannot utilise these default powers as well and then simply get out dpsed by certain classes ..overwhelmed and cant counter or even fight defensively ..
conversely certain classes knowing of this mechanic can more easily abuse it /stratregise as well by deliberately building up useless cc stacks from harmless powers from another opponent/ or even a guildy on the other team (who inadvertently/deliberately buffs his cc ) . before he engages you fully cc immune
if you are a new pvp player and your pve build cc powers are failing to land much and you dont understand why .. .. might you also throw your hands up and say this is BS too ? would you not feel penalised as well
i know as a new player in pvp i wanted to try all my powers and combos and see how they worked/related to each other to learn.. having them (cc powers )fail most of the time on new players is not good for the learning curve either ..nor is making certain paragons and path useless either especially when we just equalised gear tenacity levels ..should not all path be equal /viable as well why would someone want to dabble in pvp if thier powers of choice are useless then especially new player lacking power points/ resources to respect ..or pour thru the forums for non gimped builds when they just want to play casually ..
Post edited by kalina311 on
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mamalion1234Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,415Arc User
Question about the potions. Elixir of fate is same category as the other elixirs. They dont stack anymore so isnt the time to obtain it with ardent coins instead celestial?
I didn't read all of this. Only part I read and feel disappointed about is after all the work I put in to get Lucky Coin and Pocket pet I can't use them at the same time. Sad day for pocket pet and Lucky coin not so lucky anymore
Founder of Knights of Ra guild in Neverwinter PS4. Founder of The Arashikage Clan in Defiance, formally of PlayStation Home.
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kalina311Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 2,082Arc User
I didn't read all of this. Only part I read and feel disappointed about is after all the work I put in to get Lucky Coin and Pocket pet I can't use them at the same time. Sad day for pocket pet and Lucky coin not so lucky anymore
ya you grinned for them but so what they are old relic items the give like +300 random stat .. just drink a +1000-2000 buff potion of you choice then instead and you will be fine .. people were stacking every buff and item type known to man all together and it was getting expensive to compete .sorry those are considered in the same category ..
Stop derailing the discussion. Devs have already said that they weren't happy about GF's burst dmg and would be looking into it.
Now back to CC. I've said it once but I'll say it again: it's game breaking and would cause immense class imbalance.
1. The CC immunity is implemented to allow people to break free from a serious CC fest, but now 4 stacks can be easily applied even if the opponent isn't using a heavy CC build. This kills classes that rely almost exclusively on CC to do damage regardless of builds (i.e. CW).
2. Tanks/healers will be immortal. Some already are practically immortal against multiple geared players, and can only be killed by chain CC + lucky burst dmg. With easily acquired CC immunity, they could heal/tank uninterruptedly, making them even more impossible to kill.
For the reasons above I'd suggest the following:
1. More stacks are required for CC immunity. I'd say around 6 stacks; this still allows people to break free from a CC spam while preventing excessive CC immunity.
2. Stacks last (much) shorter and stacks must be reacquired after CC immunity. Again, the CC immunity is to allow people to briefly break free from a dire situation, not to provide a continuous CC protection. Therefore, it should last much shorter, ideally 2-3 seconds top.
In addition, all the stacks should disappear once the CC immunity time frame is over such that they can't maintain having CC immunity indefinitely.
2. Differential stack application depending on the CC type. Obviously a knockdown from bullcharge is a much stronger CC than a microdaze from HR's root. It wouldn't be fair to treat them equally. Knockdown should either apply more stacks or should have its duration shortened by CC resist like every other CC.
I think this is something that should be looked at to temper the overactive CC resistance formula currently on PTR. Something must be done or classes and paragon trees that are primarily CC focused will wind up being forced into a singular meta, something that is the opposite of what should be occurring. CW's will find it difficult to keep enemies at bay or to complete their rotations. Trappers will not be able to survive using the only defense they have available: roots and dazes.
While I understand the desire to offset complete control matches with multiple CC builds making fighting impossible, something like these suggestions should be a better solution to that issue.
I would also add a variation of @bvira s suggestion of differential stack application that, perhaps, being immune to the current attacker's CC should be separate from a second attacker. So that a full GF rotation may give you complete immunity to that GF but not to the Trapper HR or CW playing his support. Limiting individual CC while allowing multiple CC sources would encourage more teamwork in finishing off an opponent.
On ambush rings: "How would you like PVE if all the mobs were invisible?"
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mamalion1234Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,415Arc User
edited September 2017
AFter those nice changes we can see the live server reaction.
Note also the find person can see also in private queues so seems that queue is used rarely.
Ok, so to fix GF, there needs to be a removal of the damage bonus feats in the Conqueror tree, it should be renamed. Or, the base damage can be brought down to Mod 5 levels. The shield needs to be DR, not RID, or it should be tied to damage instead of stamina. Knight's Challenge should be removed and replaced with a hard taunt. The Bullcharge prone needs to be removed, it should be a small daze or a stun. These are a few of many things that can be done right now to bring GF in line.
Have you EVER tanked MSVA, TONG. CN as Gf, well obviouly not making block DR would kill the class as Tank but then again you as usal come up with the clueless suggestion after the other,
KC can be lowered to 50% in pve same as pvp or replaced with something good as its the ONLY reason you can compeate with other high damage classes.
Bullcharge as a stun like florish is probably not a bad thing after that there is no reason to lower Gf damage, if you as a Gwf or Tr have problem keeping up in damage you need to learn how to gear/play your own characters instead of crying about people that actually know how to play theirs...
Ok, so to fix GF, there needs to be a removal of the damage bonus feats in the Conqueror tree, it should be renamed. Or, the base damage can be brought down to Mod 5 levels. The shield needs to be DR, not RID, or it should be tied to damage instead of stamina. Knight's Challenge should be removed and replaced with a hard taunt. The Bullcharge prone needs to be removed, it should be a small daze or a stun. These are a few of many things that can be done right now to bring GF in line.
Have you EVER tanked MSVA, TONG. CN as Gf, well obviouly not making block DR would kill the class as Tank but then again you as usal come up with the clueless suggestion after the other,
KC can be lowered to 50% in pve same as pvp or replaced with something good as its the ONLY reason you can compeate with other high damage classes.
Bullcharge as a stun like florish is probably not a bad thing after that there is no reason to lower Gf damage, if you as a Gwf or Tr have problem keeping up in damage you need to learn how to gear/play your own characters instead of crying about people that actually know how to play theirs...
Can you make one post without an insult or attack? My god, son. They do not hurt me, they embolden me. I will make a whole thread on nerfing GF now, thanks for the inspiration.
"Son" the way you write you are most likely very much younger then me with age comes wisdom and you sure lack some of that.
Weather i post or not you sad crusade against the Gf class are so constand it do not matter tbh..
Mate, you dont understand one thing, we talk as of PVP perspective, and you talk as PVE. We dont need to tank any of your dungeons. We need balanced pvp, which atm - its not.
Dude don't talk to this clown,he is just a waste of breath I read some of his posts, the ones that I could actually understand,and he is just simple minded,to put it nicely,no matter how well you explain things based on hard facts and truths that are very obvious to the normal person he will resort to condescension,I have played all classes except CW and it is totally obvious there is a problem with certain classes capable of taking and dealing large amounts of damage and GF is number 1.
Ha ha ok plz take your low geared Gf and I take my Hr Gwf or Op and then show me how good you are with the Gf up for the challange ...
I didn't say he was low geared I said even when he was low geared he was way better than other classes with similar or greater gear.what platform you on maybe we can make this happen.
Ok, so to fix GF, there needs to be a removal of the damage bonus feats in the Conqueror tree, it should be renamed. Or, the base damage can be brought down to Mod 5 levels. The shield needs to be DR, not RID, or it should be tied to damage instead of stamina. Knight's Challenge should be removed and replaced with a hard taunt. The Bullcharge prone needs to be removed, it should be a small daze or a stun. These are a few of many things that can be done right now to bring GF in line.
Have you EVER tanked MSVA, TONG. CN as Gf, well obviouly not making block DR would kill the class as Tank but then again you as usal come up with the clueless suggestion after the other,
KC can be lowered to 50% in pve same as pvp or replaced with something good as its the ONLY reason you can compeate with other high damage classes.
Bullcharge as a stun like florish is probably not a bad thing after that there is no reason to lower Gf damage, if you as a Gwf or Tr have problem keeping up in damage you need to learn how to gear/play your own characters instead of crying about people that actually know how to play theirs...
Ok, so to fix GF, there needs to be a removal of the damage bonus feats in the Conqueror tree, it should be renamed. Or, the base damage can be brought down to Mod 5 levels. The shield needs to be DR, not RID, or it should be tied to damage instead of stamina. Knight's Challenge should be removed and replaced with a hard taunt. The Bullcharge prone needs to be removed, it should be a small daze or a stun. These are a few of many things that can be done right now to bring GF in line.
Have you EVER tanked MSVA, TONG. CN as Gf, well obviouly not making block DR would kill the class as Tank but then again you as usal come up with the clueless suggestion after the other,
KC can be lowered to 50% in pve same as pvp or replaced with something good as its the ONLY reason you can compeate with other high damage classes.
Bullcharge as a stun like florish is probably not a bad thing after that there is no reason to lower Gf damage, if you as a Gwf or Tr have problem keeping up in damage you need to learn how to gear/play your own characters instead of crying about people that actually know how to play theirs...
Can you make one post without an insult or attack? My god, son. They do not hurt me, they embolden me. I will make a whole thread on nerfing GF now, thanks for the inspiration.
"Son" the way you write you are most likely very much younger then me with age comes wisdom and you sure lack some of that.
Weather i post or not you sad crusade against the Gf class are so constand it do not matter tbh..
Mate, you dont understand one thing, we talk as of PVP perspective, and you talk as PVE. We dont need to tank any of your dungeons. We need balanced pvp, which atm - its not.
Dude don't talk to this clown,he is just a waste of breath I read some of his posts, the ones that I could actually understand,and he is just simple minded,to put it nicely,no matter how well you explain things based on hard facts and truths that are very obvious to the normal person he will resort to condescension,I have played all classes except CW and it is totally obvious there is a problem with certain classes capable of taking and dealing large amounts of damage and GF is number 1.
Ha ha ok plz take your low geared Gf and I take my Hr Gwf or Op and then show me how good you are with the Gf up for the challange ...
I didn't say he was low geared I said even when he was low geared he was way better than other classes with similar or better gear too sometimes,and besides that you are just making a fool of yourself,"in your mind" you are challenging a lower geared player to a duel with one of your purportedly high gs toons,dude wtf does that do for you lmao,you are so stupid man that it's funny really I am not even kidding I can't even believe I am even talking to you,so I won't,my momma can beat up yo momma now what,thanks for the laughs anyway you big donkey HAMSTER
Sure, this is your humble opinion from a 1000 matches played mainly I guess, as just about the best pvp cw in the game, in matches with similarly amazingly geared and finely tuned toons.
Who cares tbh. for your bog standard, "Oh yeah I like a bit of pvp." Player, pvp is a horrible mess of c.c. and in that light, coming across the odd unkillable dc/op is the absolute least of their worries.
If there were a whole new tier of average pvpers, sub-bis, like there used to be back in the early days, when pvp queues popped in seconds, these immortals would comprise 0.001 etc. percent of a problem. For them. You however, if you go back to the luxury of arranged matches, would have a problem. But then, this becomes a case of "the needs of the many" etc.
Nuke cc, tweak DCs and OPs ONLY IN PVP, and see what happens. CC is the bigger problem, simple as that.
They cant "tweak " DCs and OP's in PVP only. I wish that was true. But it is not. PVP players asked for a nerf in healing and now PVE players have to deal with " EXPERIMENTAL CHANGES " in AS , for DCs.
This will never work . Anything done cos of PVP will also affect PVE players. And vice versa.
Now do not get me wrong. I hate the term nerf. I really do. Tweak , is not much better too. It gives me the creeps.
And we see a lot of this particular word being used in here, for pretty much every class. Giving devs ideas about how overpowered every class is. When i read this last few pages, it feels like certain classes can just one shot you in PVP and there is nothing you can do about it . Ever. Like Gods among mortals. Your Diablo Nemesis killing you for the 15th time after you just got better gear... Since i do not PVP i have no idea if that is true or not.
Everyone are entitled to your informed opinion. Be it PVP or PVE.
I am a dedicated PVE player. I do not play PVP. It is just not for me. I main support classes. DC and OP, are my main two.. And i play them all as support / tank builds. ( you can see, how your suggestion touches in my / subjective bee hive ) With exception of a DC righteous when people ask me for that build.
I let pro PVP players decide for themselves, what they think it is right or wrong. And what they need. As long as it does not affect me i am fine with it. You do not see me screaming around for a nerf.
As long as there isn't a set boundary between PVP and PVE anything done to boost or nerf one, will have effects on the other. Intentional or not. And while i commend your dedication to making things better, please do not make them worse for us, silly non pvp players. Pretty please ? I ll even throw in " puppy eyes " if i have to. On a side note if the changes introduced , sound as good as you guys make them to be, i ll try to PVP. Maybe.. in like 10 years, or something... when i get mentally prepd to get ripped to shreds in 10 seconds of the start. ( jk , jk )
Post edited by araneax on
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treesclimberMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,161Arc User
What if: CC immunity lasting 2 seconds and triggered when the player has been under control for 4 seconds, being considered consecutive each control with less than 1 second time distance from another
Just let classes have feats that provide CC resistance, or build CC resistance into the CC powers that already exist BUT ONLY WHEN USED AGAINST PLAYERS.
If you make players buy CC resistance, you will help level the playing field, making the dps builds choose between god-like power builds that can be CC'd or sacrificing some dps feats for CC resistance
I know changing feats is scary and difficult, but free CC immunity of any kind only benefits the 13-17k pvpers while raising the threshold for lower gear-score people that want to try pvp
They cant "tweak " DCs and OP's in PVP only. I wish that was true. But it is not. PVP players asked for a nerf in healing and now PVE players have to deal with " EXPERIMENTAL CHANGES " in AS , for DCs.
One of the lead developers said that when they changed the PvP coding recently, they included ways to tune things. So your stats can be tuned in PvP.
Did they make this change on a game wide level or class level? That is unclear. I would hope is is on a class or power level, as a game wide level would not give them many ways to fine tune the system.
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kalina311Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 2,082Arc User
Stop derailing the discussion. Devs have already said that they weren't happy about GF's burst dmg and would be looking into it.
Now back to CC. I've said it once but I'll say it again: it's game breaking and would cause immense class imbalance.
1. The CC immunity is implemented to allow people to break free from a serious CC fest, but now 4 stacks can be easily applied even if the opponent isn't using a heavy CC build. This kills classes that rely almost exclusively on CC to do damage regardless of builds (i.e. CW).
2. Tanks/healers will be immortal. Some already are practically immortal against multiple geared players, and can only be killed by chain CC + lucky burst dmg. With easily acquired CC immunity, they could heal/tank uninterruptedly, making them even more impossible to kill.
For the reasons above I'd suggest the following:
1. More stacks are required for CC immunity. I'd say around 6 stacks; this still allows people to break free from a CC spam while preventing excessive CC immunity.
2. Stacks last (much) shorter and stacks must be reacquired after CC immunity. Again, the CC immunity is to allow people to briefly break free from a dire situation, not to provide a continuous CC protection. Therefore, it should last much shorter, ideally 2-3 seconds top.
In addition, all the stacks should disappear once the CC immunity time frame is over such that they can't maintain having CC immunity indefinitely.
2. Differential stack application depending on the CC type. Obviously a knockdown from bullcharge is a much stronger CC than a microdaze from HR's root. It wouldn't be fair to treat them equally. Knockdown should either apply more stacks or should have its duration shortened by CC resist like every other CC.
I think this is something that should be looked at to temper the overactive CC resistance formula currently on PTR. Something must be done or classes and paragon trees that are primarily CC focused will wind up being forced into a singular meta, something that is the opposite of what should be occurring. CW's will find it difficult to keep enemies at bay or to complete their rotations. Trappers will not be able to survive using the only defense they have available: roots and dazes.
While I understand the desire to offset complete control matches with multiple CC builds making fighting impossible, something like these suggestions should be a better solution to that issue.
I would also add a variation of @bvira s suggestion of differential stack application that, perhaps, being immune to the current attacker's CC should be separate from a second attacker. So that a full GF rotation may give you complete immunity to that GF but not to the Trapper HR or CW playing his support. Limiting individual CC while allowing multiple CC sources would encourage more teamwork in finishing off an opponent.
+1 lol so basically what i said 7 pages /weeks ago ... @bviras suggestion /+ a variation i also suggested weeks ago as well
+1 "Limiting individual CC while allowing multiple CC sources would encourage more teamwork in finishing off an opponent". I agree ..
There are always only a few PVP matches going on, if any. What needs to be done to bring it back, matchmaking, great rewards, new maps, and gear/stat balance through removing boons and mounts, are not on the table. I would love PVP to return to NW, and be fun for all players. But also, who wants to gear a toon for PVP when bad players can cry until your class gets nerfed, like what happened to DC and TR?
I can't believe I'm saying this but I completely agree. I've been advocating for just these things. Equalization of stats, removal of boons, mounts, insignias... a more vanilla PVP experience.
Everyone has been asking for new Maps and another NCL as well and these are both necessary. If you were to take this advice, you could literally fill guilds with the number of old PVPers who would come back, and since PVE gear will be viable next mod you would find yourself with many more consumers looking to buy their way back into some of the preexisting modules.
I really wish this idea would catch on. Everyone wants fair fights that aren't predetermined by your gear, or by a boon proc that kills by deflect. It will be unpopular with some end gamers (those who like to keep an edge, rather than commit to a more healthy PVP environment that will foster new players and bring back the old).
Now would be a perfect time to capitalize (read monetize) off the upcoming mod by bringing back PVP and your old core PVPers. Think how much easier it is to balance classes without all the interacting boons and proccs causing confounding variables. It's a win/win. Simplify and profit.
On ambush rings: "How would you like PVE if all the mobs were invisible?"
Stop derailing the discussion. Devs have already said that they weren't happy about GF's burst dmg and would be looking into it.
Now back to CC. I've said it once but I'll say it again: it's game breaking and would cause immense class imbalance.
1. The CC immunity is implemented to allow people to break free from a serious CC fest, but now 4 stacks can be easily applied even if the opponent isn't using a heavy CC build. This kills classes that rely almost exclusively on CC to do damage regardless of builds (i.e. CW).
2. Tanks/healers will be immortal. Some already are practically immortal against multiple geared players, and can only be killed by chain CC + lucky burst dmg. With easily acquired CC immunity, they could heal/tank uninterruptedly, making them even more impossible to kill.
For the reasons above I'd suggest the following:
1. More stacks are required for CC immunity. I'd say around 6 stacks; this still allows people to break free from a CC spam while preventing excessive CC immunity.
2. Stacks last (much) shorter and stacks must be reacquired after CC immunity. Again, the CC immunity is to allow people to briefly break free from a dire situation, not to provide a continuous CC protection. Therefore, it should last much shorter, ideally 2-3 seconds top.
In addition, all the stacks should disappear once the CC immunity time frame is over such that they can't maintain having CC immunity indefinitely.
2. Differential stack application depending on the CC type. Obviously a knockdown from bullcharge is a much stronger CC than a microdaze from HR's root. It wouldn't be fair to treat them equally. Knockdown should either apply more stacks or should have its duration shortened by CC resist like every other CC.
I think this is something that should be looked at to temper the overactive CC resistance formula currently on PTR. Something must be done or classes and paragon trees that are primarily CC focused will wind up being forced into a singular meta, something that is the opposite of what should be occurring. CW's will find it difficult to keep enemies at bay or to complete their rotations. Trappers will not be able to survive using the only defense they have available: roots and dazes.
While I understand the desire to offset complete control matches with multiple CC builds making fighting impossible, something like these suggestions should be a better solution to that issue.
I would also add a variation of @bvira s suggestion of differential stack application that, perhaps, being immune to the current attacker's CC should be separate from a second attacker. So that a full GF rotation may give you complete immunity to that GF but not to the Trapper HR or CW playing his support. Limiting individual CC while allowing multiple CC sources would encourage more teamwork in finishing off an opponent.
+1 lol so basically what i said 7 pages /weeks ago ... @bviras suggestion /+ a variation i also suggested weeks ago as well
+1 "Limiting individual CC while allowing multiple CC sources would encourage more teamwork in finishing off an opponent". I agree ..
Sorry I unintentionally plagiarized. Good idea!
On ambush rings: "How would you like PVE if all the mobs were invisible?"
Comments
40% critical severity mitigation
40% damage mitigation
50% reduction in healing from all sources (Direct heals, HOTs, Lifesteal, etc.)
I'm sorry, how SW's will survive? we haven't much defense or parry (how tanks or TR, HR have), no special damage resistance, no Temp HP, almost no immune, almost no control... So SW is dead class. You broke our bargain - its a trash now, and now you reduce a vampir?
#UP_SW
would all Tr powers and dailies be ok/ in line if the stealth attack/ reveal were brought back ?
Being able to fight invisible with a skill called HIDE, dissapearing in plain view with a skill called hide and keep attacking is norm in pvp. Adding spamming ITC and smoke with 85% deflect severity and huge dodges making for immortality and you talk about BEAT THEM FAIRLY !!!! and then talk about Gf being able to take to much damage while blocking FRONTAL attacks...
Keep the cape and T-shirt you can add a picture of a Troll on them now.....
Edit-typo
why did they have they secret buff? because as a tank defender class the devs felt they needed the "ocational dps buff to clear solo content / do dailies but not have it tied directing to any powers/feats giving huge dps or interfere with his tank aggro defender roll (there was not enough stats to spread around into crit and damage/armor pen back then if you wanted to tank ... ..it was only chancy random burst dps every 20 seconds very balanced..this is way before huge stats inflation that made classes bleed into other rolls .. .. ...this was the original neverwinter gf design folks.. I been saving that little easter egg lol now tell me the gf is not out of his roll and overpowered on burst exactly like the Dev said ..
Now back to CC. I've said it once but I'll say it again: it's game breaking and would cause immense class imbalance.
1. The CC immunity is implemented to allow people to break free from a serious CC fest, but now 4 stacks can be easily applied even if the opponent isn't using a heavy CC build. This kills classes that rely almost exclusively on CC to do damage regardless of builds (i.e. CW).
2. Tanks/healers will be immortal. Some already are practically immortal against multiple geared players, and can only be killed by chain CC + lucky burst dmg. With easily acquired CC immunity, they could heal/tank uninterruptedly, making them even more impossible to kill.
For the reasons above I'd suggest the following:
1. More stacks are required for CC immunity.
I'd say around 6 stacks; this still allows people to break free from a CC spam while preventing excessive CC immunity.
2. Stacks last (much) shorter and stacks must be reacquired after CC immunity.
Again, the CC immunity is to allow people to briefly break free from a dire situation, not to provide a continuous CC protection. Therefore, it should last much shorter, ideally 2-3 seconds top.
In addition, all the stacks should disappear once the CC immunity time frame is over such that they can't maintain having CC immunity indefinitely.
2. Differential stack application depending on the CC type.
Obviously a knockdown from bullcharge is a much stronger CC than a microdaze from HR's root. It wouldn't be fair to treat them equally. Knockdown should either apply more stacks or should have its duration shortened by CC resist like every other CC.
Mod 12.5 PvP Power/Crit/Arp Optimization
Youtube channel (PvE/PvP)
PvP has been dying of bis premades for years. Anything that a) broadens the playerbase and b) allows them to have more fun in PvP i.e.. not being perma-cc'd to death routinely, is a thing to be wholeheartedly applauded.
When mod 12b drops, I'm gonna solo q in full pve gear, and unleash merry hell.
for me any 1 v 1 in a similar gear spectrum within lets say 20% ITem level should be 3- 5 rotations of anything max then some on should die in AROUND 30-40 seconds ..and some one should be at low heath ~ 20-30%
a 2 v 1 same criteria ..you being 2 v1ed should die with in 20-30 seconds with 2 people attacking if you dont strategically retreat or go off node ..
3 v 1 should die in 15-25 seconds max ,.,,
this is how pvp should be you CAN adjust the seconds or time frame but some one should be extremely uncomfortable in a 2 v 1 an fighting for thier life in a 3 v 1 ...cc immunity should be useless anyways(pure semantics ) if you are being 3 v1 because you should / will die from one form of damage or another ...
i dont care who you are or what class you are
if the player dies to cc or die to major dps or whatever form no matter... but they have to die reagrdless of any "percived or actual cc immunities"
this has nothing to do with fun threshold if certain classes wont die no matter what
and WITH THIS NEW cc SYSTEM you are not even permitted to perform even 1 rotation on some one IF they have cc immunity from someone else already and you were not even attacking them before ..making a lot of pve cc builds that go to pvp usless as well
so dc/ tanks get to have thier "fun theshold" but other classes not with thier toys / abilities
everybody should be allowed to get a few rotations orf any type in on a fresh opponent that they have not attacked in awhile ..yet pvp has become too defensive.. even the "best players" need to start getting a few deaths per match
the cleric pally or a pillar character is protecting his whole team and strategically they need to be valid targets as well not having player think .. oh he is immortal therefore i am going to ignore him and not have strategies to take him out cause its impossible .. and focus on "weaker Squishier classes" but still be unable to get the node cause they are being kept alive by something you cant take out cause 1 brief cc moment wont do it from 1 player with no one else co ordinating
no class in the game should be able to 3 v 1 indefinitely they should be at low or critical heath .. needing an artifact or potion within a few rotationS of 3 attacker NO MATTER WHAT
who cares if people think they were troll or cc locked or could not move or could not do anything that the idea if you are overwhelmed by similar gear opponents you should die cced to death bursted to death proned chained whatever regardless of perceived damage type or the reason why
this is from my "HUMBLE" perspective of tens of thousands of matches played .
the only part the dev have somewhat right with the cc changes is that they are ok for 1 v 1 cc spamming from annoying classes and powers .. but thier new
CC system is far from balanced for multiple attackers at once and immunity and partial immunity frames are too long and reset too fast ..however this might rquire coding flag for every power in the game to indicate how much they should add to the CC resist o meter based on how much of a control impact they have vis avis CC spammynness
Who cares tbh. for your bog standard, "Oh yeah I like a bit of pvp." Player, pvp is a horrible mess of c.c. and in that light, coming across the odd unkillable dc/op is the absolute least of their worries.
If there were a whole new tier of average pvpers, sub-bis, like there used to be back in the early days, when pvp queues popped in seconds, these immortals would comprise 0.001 etc. percent of a problem. For them. You however, if you go back to the luxury of arranged matches, would have a problem. But then, this becomes a case of "the needs of the many" etc.
Nuke cc, tweak DCs and OPs ONLY IN PVP, and see what happens. CC is the bigger problem, simple as that.
umm at least half my matches i was not best in slot and i was not in a premade..or even in a pvp guild for that matter i started in low and mid grade pug matches just like everyone else .. that is the perspective i am comming from i know the "feel" of pvp dynamics and the flow and how it felt in earlier mods where you could still threaten and hurt someone of higher gear then and certainly kill them if three weaker guys teamed up
also i would have no problem with the "luxury of arranged matches either" i would welcome it
also i already have a SECRET CW build for next mod even if CC is nerfed and stays as it is : D
ya lets get some more players involved +1
also tho certain weaker / lower items level players / classes can build more easily/effectively for cc then for dps tho ..
certain powers have almost the same duration / effect regardless of player item level and tho are more favoured if you are weaker.. by nerfing cc (and not even letting a player use 1 combo reliably ) players cannot utilise these default powers as well and then simply get out dpsed by certain classes ..overwhelmed and cant counter or even fight defensively ..
conversely certain classes knowing of this mechanic can more easily abuse it /stratregise as well by deliberately building up useless cc stacks from harmless powers from another opponent/ or even a guildy on the other team (who inadvertently/deliberately buffs his cc ) . before he engages you fully cc immune
if you are a new pvp player and your pve build cc powers are failing to land much and you dont understand why .. .. might you also throw your hands up and say this is BS too ? would you not feel penalised as well
i know as a new player in pvp i wanted to try all my powers and combos and see how they worked/related to each other to learn.. having them (cc powers )fail most of the time on new players is not good for the learning curve either ..nor is making certain paragons and path useless either especially when we just equalised gear tenacity levels ..should not all path be equal /viable as well why would someone want to dabble in pvp if thier powers of choice are useless then especially new player lacking power points/ resources to respect ..or pour thru the forums for non gimped builds when they just want to play casually ..
ya but which elixir sells for more ads at the moment ? : D which has a greater combined stat benefit
While I understand the desire to offset complete control matches with multiple CC builds making fighting impossible, something like these suggestions should be a better solution to that issue.
I would also add a variation of @bvira s suggestion of differential stack application that, perhaps, being immune to the current attacker's CC should be separate from a second attacker. So that a full GF rotation may give you complete immunity to that GF but not to the Trapper HR or CW playing his support. Limiting individual CC while allowing multiple CC sources would encourage more teamwork in finishing off an opponent.
Note also the find person can see also in private queues so seems that queue is used rarely.
I wish that was true.
But it is not.
PVP players asked for a nerf in healing and now PVE players have to deal with " EXPERIMENTAL CHANGES " in AS , for DCs.
This will never work .
Anything done cos of PVP will also affect PVE players. And vice versa.
Now do not get me wrong. I hate the term nerf. I really do. Tweak , is not much better too. It gives me the creeps.
And we see a lot of this particular word being used in here, for pretty much every class. Giving devs ideas about how overpowered every class is. When i read this last few pages, it feels like certain classes can just one shot you in PVP and there is nothing you can do about it . Ever. Like Gods among mortals. Your Diablo Nemesis killing you for the 15th time after you just got better gear...
Since i do not PVP i have no idea if that is true or not.
Everyone are entitled to your informed opinion. Be it PVP or PVE.
I am a dedicated PVE player. I do not play PVP. It is just not for me.
I main support classes. DC and OP, are my main two.. And i play them all as support / tank builds. ( you can see, how your suggestion touches in my / subjective bee hive )
With exception of a DC righteous when people ask me for that build.
I let pro PVP players decide for themselves, what they think it is right or wrong. And what they need.
As long as it does not affect me i am fine with it.
You do not see me screaming around for a nerf.
As long as there isn't a set boundary between PVP and PVE anything done to boost or nerf one, will have effects on the other.
Intentional or not.
And while i commend your dedication to making things better, please do not make them worse for us, silly non pvp players. Pretty please ? I ll even throw in " puppy eyes " if i have to.
On a side note if the changes introduced , sound as good as you guys make them to be, i ll try to PVP. Maybe.. in like 10 years, or something... when i get mentally prepd to get ripped to shreds in 10 seconds of the start. ( jk , jk )
CC immunity lasting 2 seconds and triggered when the player has been under control for 4 seconds, being considered consecutive each control with less than 1 second time distance from another
If you make players buy CC resistance, you will help level the playing field, making the dps builds choose between god-like power builds that can be CC'd or sacrificing some dps feats for CC resistance
I know changing feats is scary and difficult, but free CC immunity of any kind only benefits the 13-17k pvpers while raising the threshold for lower gear-score people that want to try pvp
Did they make this change on a game wide level or class level? That is unclear. I would hope is is on a class or power level, as a game wide level would not give them many ways to fine tune the system.
+1 "Limiting individual CC while allowing multiple CC sources would encourage more teamwork in finishing off an opponent". I agree ..
Everyone has been asking for new Maps and another NCL as well and these are both necessary. If you were to take this advice, you could literally fill guilds with the number of old PVPers who would come back, and since PVE gear will be viable next mod you would find yourself with many more consumers looking to buy their way back into some of the preexisting modules.
I really wish this idea would catch on. Everyone wants fair fights that aren't predetermined by your gear, or by a boon proc that kills by deflect. It will be unpopular with some end gamers (those who like to keep an edge, rather than commit to a more healthy PVP environment that will foster new players and bring back the old).
Now would be a perfect time to capitalize (read monetize) off the upcoming mod by bringing back PVP and your old core PVPers. Think how much easier it is to balance classes without all the interacting boons and proccs causing confounding variables. It's a win/win. Simplify and profit.