GF got nerfed? In what universe? The only thing that got nerfed was Commander's Strike, that is it.
You must be new here my friend . Ofc GFs were nerfed - numerous times that is. Every seasoned GF player will tell you that GF today is only a shadow of its former glory.
But to the point. Problem you descibing do not exist. If you think different - roll yourself a GF and check it,
But all that complaining comes form one place, and you can blame Cryptic for that - loadouts. Yup - thats a source. 6 months back no1 could switch so easly from one path to another. Now all you need is a campfire. So, without use of expensive tokens, time consuming feats relocation and so on - you can transform from one build to another in no time, to fit better to tactical situation. And still GFs performance is nowhere near to what OPs are capable of.
In short - GFs in dps stance where always there, but only a margin of players used that build, and mainly within a friends party, where every one relised that thay are not tanks any more. Now most of players have more builds and they simply use them.
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checkmatein3Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 525Arc User
I am a BIS GF (inspect me in game) and have never setup as a dps GF. First, defiant usually merges several complaints into a whole lot of noise, so let me set the record straight:
1. In any content that is NOT mSVA, mSP, FBI, or TONG, any BIS class is going to burn the beejezuz out of everything. The BIS player will be faster, hit harder, be better. BIS classes run lower content because of easy salvage and AD rewards (this will change with random queue). It is not to show off. Therefore, references to any content that is NOT the 'top content' is a mute point. 2. Nerfs are already coming to mod 12b for everyone AND PvP changes too. To ask for more specific nerfs on top of those nerfs without testing and outside of the official mod 12b PvP feedback stream seems redudant and unproductive. Moreover, since PvP is still in flux, as the devs ask for feedback, this post is more like a crusade against GFs than from one who wants to really show how the new meta might be better for all classes PvP. 3. The dps GF is a build, but it is NOT the preferred build for GFs by the community in top content. This is not to say that dps GFs cannot group in FBI, mSP, mSVA, and TONG and do insane damage as a dps class. But, apples to apples, the community would rather have a classic dps class and use the GF as a buffer (normally). I have run over 100 TONGs now, and I have used my Tactician Buffer build in more than 99% of the dungeon time, and not once, was I top dps. Not once, was I even close to top dps. In fact, most of the time, I am 5-10% of the top dps. But, groups love me, because I know how to buff, debuff, and do some off tanking for the OP. I can help turn the dps class(es) into a monster that melts the bosses. Again, you do not see requests for the dps GF in that content actively. 4. The skills you mention are usually not used by GFs consistently. My bread and butter setup is simple. Enforced Threat, Into the Fray, Knights Valor. I go wide on my daily for Villains Menace for mobs, and go narrow on bosses with Crescendo (for that added 10% crushing pin buff). I taunt, mark, tide of iron for off aggro, and position. dps GFs or any GF would switch to KC because the content is desired to be finished quickly and the group he is with will not benefit from buffing MORE than he can just do more dps. So, you want the GF to be nerfed in these situations as well. You are saying, its better to keep the GF out of the dps arena in these cases, because, in your mind, the GF should only tank (even a nerf to buffer was and is asked for a nerf by you). But, in the words of asterdahl, the Trinity of the game should be thought of as a Hexagon, with 6 distinct types. Therefore, abandon your 1999 mentality of tank, dps, and healer and enjoy the meta and adapt.
You don't play PvP, you don't know about PvP balance.
All you do is pug-stomp, neither do you. FYI, this post is about PVP and PVE.
I dont wanna play other classes. What is ur prob? Now when loadouts exist u can play dps and tank, and we like it. Only u here 24/7 complain, created here fake accounts at forum and again only things u do is whine about GF nerf, leave this game, its not urs, play CS or something.
....This class is broken and overpowered. It had been for a while, but powercreep and design flaws have skyrocketed it to levels beyond GF's intended design. The class can buff itself and others, while also dealing out insane levels of damage and having an 80% Reduced Incoming Damage shield. It has a daily that heals it. It fills every role at once, except healer. Other classes have to sacrifice damage for survivability, GF just has to press Shift. With high stamina, this shield can almost always be up. As soon as you approach, SMASH, you are dead. Then it goes back behind its shield. In PVE, it can match all DPS classes. A tank that is top tier DPS, that is absurd on its face. Fix this mess, make GF a tank again. ...
GWF class is broken and overpowered. It had been since mod6,, but powercreep and design flaws have skyrocketed it to levels beyond GWF's intended design. The class can buff itself and others, while also dealing out insane levels of damage and having a spamming tab ability that makes it extremely tanky-unstoppable. It has a daily that knocks and prones it. It fills every role at once, except healer. Other classes have to sacrifice damage for survivability, GWF just has to press tab. unstoppable shield can almost always be up. As soon as you approach, SMASH, you are dead. Then it spamms unstoppable. In PVE, it can match all DPS classes. A Striker that is top tier tank, that is absurd on its face. Fix this mess, make GWF a squishy DPS again.
Cry cry cry. Do any of you whining babies play GF? Paingiver? In what instance? Throne with 6k il noobs? Pvp is a different animal. If you whine about GF Pvp, but can't seem to figure how easy it is to counter their one killer rotation then stay out of pvp. For god sakes most classes can evade, dodge etc attacks. If you can't recognize a GF buffing ITF and is coming your way for a bullrush then /quit. Either a GF is squishy and hits like a Mack truck or is insanely tough and only tickles with his aggravating strike. In Pvp I've been nuked by all classes. il does not equal godmode, although it'll carry you to an extent.
This is a thread started by a so called Gf hater. Surprisingly it was aided in his campaign by a pvp cw -kalina- and an Op.Armadeox.
Armadeox listed some multipliers that made him impression. There was an armor set back in beta and mod1,Stalwart Bulwark.Before its nerf ,had the following utility power; 4 set bonus +5% max hp in combat as POWER stacking up to 5 times las 8 seconds
It was broken as hell though,cause it broke the fundamental rule of MMos.Transform defensive stats into offensive ones.Free offensive stats out of thin air.And what that has to do with current discussion.check your class -Protection path-mechanism. Your class is broken mate,free power,a passive ability that deals insane damage,aura of courage,and the most broekn encounter ever designed in the history of nerverwinter-Binding Oath. Your class is broken ,cause it tanks with out investment in defensive stats,except HP.You trasform damage into temp hps,and you spam binding oath.farther from 14k recovery mark ,binding oath becomes spammable ,its duration overcomes its icd: OP is immortal. then we have templars wrath and 300% hp of damage given as hp.Do you know how much was in mod6 beta?15%.Well maybe it is time to go back.
then -what a surprise-we have here a pvp Cw. A Cw a class that has a perma encounter-shield on tab that gives 75 % dr unmitigated,in separate layer. Now that is what i call for role class definitions. "We CWs are squishy".Sure. So CWs and other Strieker classes want GFs not to do damage -"they are tanks!" while at the smae time they have a broken as hell defensive encounter ,can reach tanks level Hp with ease -lol cw armor with 24k+ hp yeah balanced- and also have the worst offender of all: their infinite dodges provide free IMMUNITY FRAMES .Geez.damn.Damn!!! And then Cws want Gfs to be nerfed..
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In current state of the game every class can tank T1s at bis levels and every class can DPS. No class can reach the sustained DPS of the broken GWF however,this is the class,after DC,that devs need to have a hard look to. GWf trivialize the content ,it has free defensive stas in its DPS tree-Destroyer, and I think unstoppable needs an iCD.For the sake of true balance.
What a load of nonsense... why are ppl like this ignorant even alloved to post on forums? If you get out DPSed by a GF it is your fault - a L2P issue. You are not OK with RID shield? RID shield is a must have.Also the powecreep that you align to only GF is affecting everyone, build your GWF properly and you wont even need a tank outside of FBI/mSP/ToNG, thats powercreep.
Ok, I can agree on one thing that gf does a lot of damage probably less than gwf especially in tomb why did every GF start turning to dps? Tactician and Protector being pointless and ITF getting nerfed. Also They can't bring as much to the table as OP buff wise and Tank wise so there is no point being full tank-specced. I don't think it should be nerfed into the ground unless they rework some stuff on them. Is dps GF unbeatable? Depends there are many factors to take into account. Equal skill and knowledge on class as well as gear. I consider ryu's GF as the only dps gf that gave me a hard time in fbi ,never in tomb. Because FBI heavily favoured them in full buff runs (very high burst damage) vs (GWF consistent damage) 95% of the runs we did I was always doing more than his dps. And please don't pull the holy avenger exploit card as an excuse the only bugged enchant on GWF is lightning at the moment.
GF never scream nerf. It is other classes who obviously have no real GF experience who want them nerfed because they were pwned in Pvp against a near bis or bis GF setup, statted, and played like a GF should in Pvp. Pve players would never ask for a GF nerf, because a GF setup to buff debuff ap battery makes your dungeon party that much more uber.
Im no expert on other classes, but from this discussion I can see the GF here are bringing way more knowledge to the table than the "nerf gf dps because they have a shield" crowd.
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kalina311Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 2,082Arc User
I WOULD HARDLY CALL MY COMMENT SUPPORT or cries for hard nerfs MAYBE I SHOULD PASTE WHAT I WROTE AGAIN for some one with so many posts your reading comprehension is not up to par today !!!! my comment was quite balanced and i asked for build examples which he gave none .. which speaks for itself no ? I asked what power and he said bullcharge ../ ... he said skills Maybe you dont understand what the phrase i used "in all fairness means" ?? is your google translate working ok today ??
Kalina unbiasedly wrote ... "in all fairness you probably should list the gf build types pros and cons the "tanky" one and the "dps" one they all dont have such high blocking DR do they ? there must be some weakness or HAMSTER in the armor lolz also might want to break down pvp gf vs pve gf or are they the same build as well ?
maybe pick a power so we can upvote it as over powered : D so the gfs get one "adjusted" just like the Tr courage breaker did...HAMSTER for tat as they say
I vote for gf prones respecting cc immunity / maybe toned down"
then i go on to say lets vote on a power etc ...just leave me out of this BRO
"So CWs and other Strieker classes want GFs not to do damage -"they are tanks!" while"
where do i say this bro ??>>> sensationalise much ??? put words in my mouth much ?>>
oh and BY THE Way if you were actually paying attention all the time and actually inspect me .. i use negation armor in pvp not elvin so there goes you infinite dodge theory bro really nice try tho
let me spell it out i was neutrally commenting on a gf thread i suggested you read up on my many posts in the new pvp preview feedback section and then tell me i am biased bro
If i was actually asking for a gf nerf i would be listing very good examples and points that would be less defensible by you rest assured
Defiant- it only came after the whiney ones came out for a GF witch hunt. Hmmm lemme see if I can recall some of our resident GF experts ever trolling other class forums demanding nerfs....
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checkmatein3Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 525Arc User
This is a thread started by a so called Gf hater. Surprisingly it was aided in his campaign by a pvp cw -kalina- and an Op.Armadeox.
Armadeox listed some multipliers that made him impression. There was an armor set back in beta and mod1,Stalwart Bulwark.Before its nerf ,had the following utility power; 4 set bonus +5% max hp in combat as POWER stacking up to 5 times las 8 seconds
It was broken as hell though,cause it broke the fundamental rule of MMos.Transform defensive stats into offensive ones.Free offensive stats out of thin air.And what that has to do with current discussion.check your class -Protection path-mechanism. Your class is broken mate,free power,a passive ability that deals insane damage,aura of courage,and the most broekn encounter ever designed in the history of nerverwinter-Binding Oath. Your class is broken ,cause it tanks with out investment in defensive stats,except HP.You trasform damage into temp hps,and you spam binding oath.farther from 14k recovery mark ,binding oath becomes spammable ,its duration overcomes its icd: OP is immortal. then we have templars wrath and 300% hp of damage given as hp.Do you know how much was in mod6 beta?15%.Well maybe it is time to go back.
Cheers
Did you note that I also have a 12k GF? I actually play all classes with ILs ranging between 11.5k & 15.5k. Yes, the OP is my main but my interest isn't selfish, I actually want all classes to be in a good place.
I did notice that although you countered with some points about the OP, you didn't address my main concern about damage multipliers on the Conqueror path for GF and how they can layer together into very high damage.
I also pointed out that even though OPs spec for damage they still only average 40-70% of the dps of striker classes at equal IL.
Yes, the OP is about as immortal as classes get in NW. It definitely has far better defensive mechanics than the GF but in terms of cost, the OP goes for all HP whereas the GF goes for full Defence. Did you also notice how on my post I said the GF needed better temp HP generation? It absolutely does.
You mention AoC & free power but you neglect to acknowledge that both of these mechanics buff the entire team, not just the OP - my point on the GF damage multipliers was that they buff ONLY the GF and not the team.
By the way, I am fully expecting the next announcement from Cryptic will be about them stopping power-sharing via companion. When this happens the OP will be most affected as this is the main driver for pally temp HP. It will reduce their survivability and the group buffing. Feel free to have a party to celebrate.
One last point - the GF shield is a separate 80% layer of protection and gives them a total damage reduction capability of 96% and they can still attack. The OP uses HP instead of the shield as theirs operates on the same layer and whilst it is 360* it is useless for anything other than avoiding CC.
Here's the thing though, I am actually pretty cool with where the GF is in general. It is pretty well balanced in most cases - but I stand by the point that when specifically built as a dps, it's damage multipliers take it into the realms of a Striker class. This is why I listed them.
And do me a favour - if you're going to go to the trouble of singling me out, please be so kind as to actually address the issue I raised and not simply attempt to discredit me The argument of "your class is more broken than my class" is a little bit school yard, don't you think?
Please Do Not Feed The Trolls
Xael De Armadeon: DC
Xane De Armadeon: CW
Zen De Armadeon: OP
Zohar De Armadeon: TR
Chrion De Armadeon: SW
Gosti Big Belly: GWF
Barney McRustbucket: GF
Lt. Thackeray: HR
Lucius De Armadeon: BD
Member of Casual Dailies - XBox
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checkmatein3Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 525Arc User
Your only response was to say I flamed and did not interact with any of the info in the post. You created the forum thread specifically for devs to look at nerfing the GF and pushing your tank only agenda. I am replying by saying, the devs have created official feedback that can be tested on preview and have requested that feedback there. And I have replied with asterdahl's response that the game is not a tank-dps-healer setup. The devs have designed a hexagonal class structure, which they are pushing towards.
You also did not respond to the nerf coming to bonding and how this will reduce the over poweredness of all classes, including the GF. Decisions about loadout, gearing, powers, etc, will be more restricted, which you fail to mention in your analysis. For example, I already know that I have to make up a 12% loss of arm pen and a 10% loss in DR just to stay where I am at right now on live. DPS GFs will need to adjust to this new meta and become more glass cannons than they are now, as the OPness wanes, or become more tanky, or more buffer. You conveniently ignore this fact.
You also choose skills that only a dps GF uses to get maximum GF, but that add nothing to the rest of the team. Again, what is not known is whether the team intentionally sets up to give the GF maximum dps, or if the group content is already conducive to multiple buff layers (like Tiamat and edemo). This would not differ from any other BIS dps in the same content. I have run with rjc and wickedduck in mSVA prior to nerfs. Both had dps setups and both did insane damage. But, there was a cost for such a setup. Both would need the buff and tank base present to do that. The main complaint that you continue to have is that the GF can be setup for dps that is near equal to a GWF, and still retain all its GF functions. While this is not exactly true, I myself have said that the Conqueror line capstone should come with a -% stamina, -%DR per stack, to make it a penalty. No nerf, just a choice. If dps GFs want to be a huge cannon, then let them be one. Just let them be less of the GF matrix, with DR (which is already sacrificed to squeeze out dps anyway).
You did not address my reality check from the community outside the elites who only judge all things by speed runs. I have GF friends who are buffers at 14-15k who run TONG well, but I also have GF friends at 15k who want to be dps in TONG and ask me for a party. I refuse. I would rather have a 15k GWF or TR or HR. GFs who get consistent groups from multiple sources are those that setup tank/buff, and buff does not require tactician. Most GFs do not know how to use marking to maximize damage, nor how to time and position to get better dps for the rest of their team. They do not know the synergy for these things in relation to the party members. And most GFs in the game are NOT dps GFs. Most are players who chose it because they want a tanky tank, only to find out that parties in top content don't want a tanky tank, because it doesn't help them at bosses. They want buffety buffers who can sorta tank. A majority of GFs don't know the caps on DR, arm pen, etc. They just keep stacking without knowing what they should do. When a friend of mine build a GF with a 150% DR, I just shrugged my shoulders. She liked it, oh well. But then complains when no one takes her for top content. Because, the community does not want a simple TANK. Each class has multiple functions that in a good party meta can win at the content. A dps GF build requires the party to provide the buff, debuff, etc, so that the uber damage can be done, just like...any other dps class.
So, either give constructive feedback with tests in preview, to help the devs balance THEIR goals for the game, or continue to be called out by those who disagree with your philosophy of gaming and how the game should be setup. I like the multiple synergies and the options to be a buffer with tanking tendencies in top content, and to switch to a simple PvE slightly dps setup for simpler content so that I can get my runs done in a short time.
And as far as the dps GF build, I don't care if it would get nerfed. I don't play it, don't have a loadout for it, and avoid it. But some players like it, use it well, and enjoy it. So be it. I don't care if a GF is top dps in tiamat and all others are less. I don't care if a DC would be top dps. All it tells me is that the player has found something unique that functions well under certain circumstances.
@armadeonx dps GF can hit hard indeed but they also become crazy squishy, you can try it yourself, transfer all your dps enchantments from your toons to your GF and go alone to FBI or MSP as conqueror and then do likewise with your OP, that should show you OP has a much better dps - survability ratio, like, not even close. It can also be argued that OP currently has better party utility than GF no matter the build of the latter so, if OP has more party utility (great buffs, far superior tanking, heals and very high dps) then GF needs to have at least 1 thing to be better at and that's dps to help the team kill things faster. Check Ryu's FBI run where wickeddcued runs as well, BiS GF vs BiS GWF, you can see GWF > GF
A GF can attack with shield up, yes, again, try doing that on FBI/MSP alone as conqueror and then compare that to the much safer and aggressive/active OP playstyle and you'll see it isn't as good or practical as you may think it is as in fact it's subpar for dpsing and as it makes your toon move foward with each "poke", it can make you get past enemies and they can drop you real fast if you're built for as much dps as possible, you should get 1-2 shotted in t3. You attack with shield up, stamina gets drained and you get 1-2 or maaaaaybe 3 shotted although that shouldn't happen if you're trying to squeeze as much dps as you can from your toon.
While you're at that, try another thing since you don't seem to be okay with the separate layer of DR of GF even though without it,it is factually defenseless. Compare GF soloing FBI/MSP with shield down vs playing OP normally and tell me if that extra layer isn't needed. No, GF is not an OP so it has no business with temporary HP, it relies on a shield working as it should. Imagine OP getting is temp taken away and getting is sanctuary to block frontal damage only with a separate layer, that would mess the class up very hard as its mechanics wouldn't synergize as well with a GF-like shield as it would with the temp hp it was designed to work with (TW, BO, absolution and heroism and yes I know the last 2 are seldom if ever used) so it's the same with GF, it was designed to work with shield and as such, unless changing the class completely (powers, feats and mechanics) to the point it'd look like a new/different one, it wouldn't end up well.
OP can hit very very hard, buff really well and tank flawlessly at the same time, GF can hit harder yes that comes with tradeoffs and trying what I suggested you previously will show you that. Besides, OP is better for certain classes like CW thanks to AoC and powershare that can make that its main or second highest source of damage, there are already some groups who are starting to pick OP over GF thanks to its far superior versatility and overall more noticeable party utility.
Besides, as this is a pvp thread, it is also worth noting that a properly built OP hits truly hard and, assuming both players are similarly geared and skilled, the OP will mop the floor with a pvp GF and other classes as well. If you doubt this, I can try helping you contact this pvp OP I've seen (you should do it on your GF, build it for pvp), and fight him (you and I are on the same platform), that will show you paladins are surprisingly underrated in pvp, their survability - damage output ratio is significantly better than that of other classes GF included and this consistently proves overwhelming to them, resulting in OP killing the enemy. I also happen to have screenshots of combat logs from fighting that guy, I can send them to you if you want.
I really wanted to abstain from this thread , but unfortunately it calls upon us gf's and as usual a lot of ppl have started with their utter nonsense.. The devs are aware of what needs to be done for gf's and @rgutscheradev nailed it properly when he said those golden words, if ppl have not been paying attention .. then look back at those threads. Gf's have evolved beyond most classes and that's the bitter truth, like i said .. no matter how they swing the changes to a gf it will always be favorable because everyone else like HAMSTER thought ill play the nerf game since i can't get anything more to myself or advocate much to my own class.. The dev who made that statement realised exactly what a tank can do and even if that viewpoint was raised on a pvp thread , it doesn't matter because it extends to everything a guardian fighter should be. I'll tell you this .. i wasn't at all happy with the whole damn exchange program with swordmaster and iron vanguard between gwf's and gf's.. This was the biggest low point in game for me and it was too late for the dev's to realise that they needd to make changes such that both classes are not affected at the same time. Anyways this thread is doomed to reach the lower depths and likewise it's good to get there once in a while to make sure you feel grounded with your emotions. Guardian fighter's will always triumph no matter the odds because even though our little community is less and for the most part all of us know each other and the fotm class hoppers will pop up to take advantage of situations , Rest assured where skill demands itself , we will rise to every opportunity and defend the realms , tbh most ppl here still have not realized the 5 letter word that makes a tank a TANK irrespective of being a conq, prot or tact. i'm hoping there are typo's in my statement else well gfdhjgdfhkjhkdjfgh
I really wanted to abstain from this thread , but unfortunately it calls upon us gf's and as usual a lot of ppl have started with their utter nonsense.. The devs are aware of what needs to be done for gf's and @rgutscheradev nailed it properly when he said those golden words, if ppl have not been paying attention .. then look back at those threads. Gf's have evolved beyond most classes and that's the bitter truth, like i said .. no matter how they swing the changes to a gf it will always be favorable because everyone else like HAMSTER thought ill play the nerf game since i can't get anything more to myself or advocate much to my own class.. The dev who made that statement realised exactly what a tank can do and even if that viewpoint was raised on a pvp thread , it doesn't matter because it extends to everything a guardian fighter should be. I'll tell you this .. i wasn't at all happy with the whole damn exchange program with swordmaster and iron vanguard between gwf's and gf's.. This was the biggest low point in game for me and it was too late for the dev's to realise that they needd to make changes such that both classes are not affected at the same time. Anyways this thread is doomed to reach the lower depths and likewise it's good to get there once in a while to make sure you feel grounded with your emotions. Guardian fighter's will always triumph no matter the odds because even though our little community is less and for the most part all of us know each other and the fotm class hoppers will pop up to take advantage of situations , Rest assured where skill demands itself , we will rise to every opportunity and defend the realms , tbh most ppl here still have not realized the 5 letter word that makes a tank a TANK irrespective of being a conq, prot or tact. i'm hoping there are typo's in my statement else well gfdhjgdfhkjhkdjfgh
Paragraphs good sir, paragraphs would make your post much better, I couldn't get past the 3rd word. Not to be a jerk or anything but yeah, if you want to make a point and make it clear, walls of text are a big no no.
Comments
But to the point. Problem you descibing do not exist. If you think different - roll yourself a GF and check it,
But all that complaining comes form one place, and you can blame Cryptic for that - loadouts.
Yup - thats a source. 6 months back no1 could switch so easly from one path to another. Now all you need is a campfire.
So, without use of expensive tokens, time consuming feats relocation and so on - you can transform from one build to another in no time, to fit better to tactical situation.
And still GFs performance is nowhere near to what OPs are capable of.
In short - GFs in dps stance where always there, but only a margin of players used that build, and mainly within a friends party, where every one relised that thay are not tanks any more. Now most of players have more builds and they simply use them.
1. In any content that is NOT mSVA, mSP, FBI, or TONG, any BIS class is going to burn the beejezuz out of everything. The BIS player will be faster, hit harder, be better. BIS classes run lower content because of easy salvage and AD rewards (this will change with random queue). It is not to show off. Therefore, references to any content that is NOT the 'top content' is a mute point.
2. Nerfs are already coming to mod 12b for everyone AND PvP changes too. To ask for more specific nerfs on top of those nerfs without testing and outside of the official mod 12b PvP feedback stream seems redudant and unproductive. Moreover, since PvP is still in flux, as the devs ask for feedback, this post is more like a crusade against GFs than from one who wants to really show how the new meta might be better for all classes PvP.
3. The dps GF is a build, but it is NOT the preferred build for GFs by the community in top content. This is not to say that dps GFs cannot group in FBI, mSP, mSVA, and TONG and do insane damage as a dps class. But, apples to apples, the community would rather have a classic dps class and use the GF as a buffer (normally). I have run over 100 TONGs now, and I have used my Tactician Buffer build in more than 99% of the dungeon time, and not once, was I top dps. Not once, was I even close to top dps. In fact, most of the time, I am 5-10% of the top dps. But, groups love me, because I know how to buff, debuff, and do some off tanking for the OP. I can help turn the dps class(es) into a monster that melts the bosses. Again, you do not see requests for the dps GF in that content actively.
4. The skills you mention are usually not used by GFs consistently. My bread and butter setup is simple. Enforced Threat, Into the Fray, Knights Valor. I go wide on my daily for Villains Menace for mobs, and go narrow on bosses with Crescendo (for that added 10% crushing pin buff). I taunt, mark, tide of iron for off aggro, and position. dps GFs or any GF would switch to KC because the content is desired to be finished quickly and the group he is with will not benefit from buffing MORE than he can just do more dps. So, you want the GF to be nerfed in these situations as well. You are saying, its better to keep the GF out of the dps arena in these cases, because, in your mind, the GF should only tank (even a nerf to buffer was and is asked for a nerf by you). But, in the words of asterdahl, the Trinity of the game should be thought of as a Hexagon, with 6 distinct types. Therefore, abandon your 1999 mentality of tank, dps, and healer and enjoy the meta and adapt.
Guild--And the Imaginary Friends
Pvp is a different animal. If you whine about GF Pvp, but can't seem to figure how easy it is to counter their one killer rotation then stay out of pvp. For god sakes most classes can evade, dodge etc attacks. If you can't recognize a GF buffing ITF and is coming your way for a bullrush then /quit. Either a GF is squishy and hits like a Mack truck or is insanely tough and only tickles with his aggravating strike. In Pvp I've been nuked by all classes. il does not equal godmode, although it'll carry you to an extent.
Surprisingly it was aided in his campaign by a pvp cw -kalina- and an Op.Armadeox.
Armadeox listed some multipliers that made him impression.
There was an armor set back in beta and mod1,Stalwart Bulwark.Before its nerf ,had the following utility power;
4 set bonus +5% max hp in combat as POWER stacking up to 5 times las 8 seconds
It was broken as hell though,cause it broke the fundamental rule of MMos.Transform defensive stats into offensive ones.Free offensive stats out of thin air.And what that has to do with current discussion.check your class -Protection path-mechanism.
Your class is broken mate,free power,a passive ability that deals insane damage,aura of courage,and the most broekn encounter ever designed in the history of nerverwinter-Binding Oath.
Your class is broken ,cause it tanks with out investment in defensive stats,except HP.You trasform damage into temp hps,and you spam binding oath.farther from 14k recovery mark ,binding oath becomes spammable ,its duration overcomes its icd: OP is immortal.
then we have templars wrath and 300% hp of damage given as hp.Do you know how much was in mod6 beta?15%.Well maybe it is time to go back.
then -what a surprise-we have here a pvp Cw.
A Cw a class that has a perma encounter-shield on tab that gives 75 % dr unmitigated,in separate layer.
Now that is what i call for role class definitions. "We CWs are squishy".Sure.
So CWs and other Strieker classes want GFs not to do damage -"they are tanks!" while at the smae time they have a broken as hell defensive encounter ,can reach tanks level Hp with ease -lol cw armor with 24k+ hp yeah balanced- and also have the worst offender of all: their infinite dodges provide free IMMUNITY FRAMES .Geez.damn.Damn!!!
And then Cws want Gfs to be nerfed..
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In current state of the game every class can tank T1s at bis levels and every class can DPS.
No class can reach the sustained DPS of the broken GWF however,this is the class,after DC,that devs need to have a hard look to.
GWf trivialize the content ,it has free defensive stas in its DPS tree-Destroyer, and I think unstoppable needs an iCD.For the sake of true balance.
Cheers
Where is my cannon??????
I need moar explosives to deal with groups of mobs!!!!
Im no expert on other classes, but from this discussion I can see the GF here are bringing way more knowledge to the table than the "nerf gf dps because they have a shield" crowd.
I WOULD HARDLY CALL MY COMMENT SUPPORT or cries for hard nerfs MAYBE I SHOULD PASTE WHAT I WROTE AGAIN for some one with so many posts your reading comprehension is not up to par today !!!! my comment was quite balanced and i asked for build examples which he gave none .. which speaks for itself no ? I asked what power and he said bullcharge ../ ... he said skills Maybe you dont understand what the phrase i used "in all fairness means" ?? is your google translate working ok today ??
Kalina unbiasedly wrote ...
"in all fairness you probably should list the gf build types pros and cons the "tanky" one and the "dps" one
they all dont have such high blocking DR do they ? there must be some weakness or HAMSTER in the armor lolz also might want to break down pvp gf vs pve gf or are they the same build as well ?
maybe pick a power so we can upvote it as over powered : D so the gfs get one "adjusted" just like the Tr courage breaker did...HAMSTER for tat as they say
I vote for gf prones respecting cc immunity / maybe toned down"
then i go on to say lets vote on a power etc ...just leave me out of this BRO
"So CWs and other Strieker classes want GFs not to do damage -"they are tanks!" while"
where do i say this bro ??>>> sensationalise much ??? put words in my mouth much ?>>
oh and BY THE Way if you were actually paying attention all the time and actually inspect me .. i use negation armor in pvp not elvin so there goes you infinite dodge theory bro really nice try tho
let me spell it out i was neutrally commenting on a gf thread i suggested you read up on my many posts in the new pvp preview feedback section and then tell me i am biased bro
If i was actually asking for a gf nerf i would be listing very good examples and points that would be less defensible by you rest assured
Guild--And the Imaginary Friends
I did notice that although you countered with some points about the OP, you didn't address my main concern about damage multipliers on the Conqueror path for GF and how they can layer together into very high damage.
I also pointed out that even though OPs spec for damage they still only average 40-70% of the dps of striker classes at equal IL.
Yes, the OP is about as immortal as classes get in NW. It definitely has far better defensive mechanics than the GF but in terms of cost, the OP goes for all HP whereas the GF goes for full Defence. Did you also notice how on my post I said the GF needed better temp HP generation? It absolutely does.
You mention AoC & free power but you neglect to acknowledge that both of these mechanics buff the entire team, not just the OP - my point on the GF damage multipliers was that they buff ONLY the GF and not the team.
By the way, I am fully expecting the next announcement from Cryptic will be about them stopping power-sharing via companion. When this happens the OP will be most affected as this is the main driver for pally temp HP. It will reduce their survivability and the group buffing. Feel free to have a party to celebrate.
One last point - the GF shield is a separate 80% layer of protection and gives them a total damage reduction capability of 96% and they can still attack. The OP uses HP instead of the shield as theirs operates on the same layer and whilst it is 360* it is useless for anything other than avoiding CC.
Here's the thing though, I am actually pretty cool with where the GF is in general. It is pretty well balanced in most cases - but I stand by the point that when specifically built as a dps, it's damage multipliers take it into the realms of a Striker class. This is why I listed them.
And do me a favour - if you're going to go to the trouble of singling me out, please be so kind as to actually address the issue I raised and not simply attempt to discredit me
Xael De Armadeon: DC
Xane De Armadeon: CW
Zen De Armadeon: OP
Zohar De Armadeon: TR
Chrion De Armadeon: SW
Gosti Big Belly: GWF
Barney McRustbucket: GF
Lt. Thackeray: HR
Lucius De Armadeon: BD
Member of Casual Dailies - XBox
You also did not respond to the nerf coming to bonding and how this will reduce the over poweredness of all classes, including the GF. Decisions about loadout, gearing, powers, etc, will be more restricted, which you fail to mention in your analysis. For example, I already know that I have to make up a 12% loss of arm pen and a 10% loss in DR just to stay where I am at right now on live. DPS GFs will need to adjust to this new meta and become more glass cannons than they are now, as the OPness wanes, or become more tanky, or more buffer. You conveniently ignore this fact.
You also choose skills that only a dps GF uses to get maximum GF, but that add nothing to the rest of the team. Again, what is not known is whether the team intentionally sets up to give the GF maximum dps, or if the group content is already conducive to multiple buff layers (like Tiamat and edemo). This would not differ from any other BIS dps in the same content. I have run with rjc and wickedduck in mSVA prior to nerfs. Both had dps setups and both did insane damage. But, there was a cost for such a setup. Both would need the buff and tank base present to do that. The main complaint that you continue to have is that the GF can be setup for dps that is near equal to a GWF, and still retain all its GF functions. While this is not exactly true, I myself have said that the Conqueror line capstone should come with a -% stamina, -%DR per stack, to make it a penalty. No nerf, just a choice. If dps GFs want to be a huge cannon, then let them be one. Just let them be less of the GF matrix, with DR (which is already sacrificed to squeeze out dps anyway).
You did not address my reality check from the community outside the elites who only judge all things by speed runs. I have GF friends who are buffers at 14-15k who run TONG well, but I also have GF friends at 15k who want to be dps in TONG and ask me for a party. I refuse. I would rather have a 15k GWF or TR or HR. GFs who get consistent groups from multiple sources are those that setup tank/buff, and buff does not require tactician. Most GFs do not know how to use marking to maximize damage, nor how to time and position to get better dps for the rest of their team. They do not know the synergy for these things in relation to the party members. And most GFs in the game are NOT dps GFs. Most are players who chose it because they want a tanky tank, only to find out that parties in top content don't want a tanky tank, because it doesn't help them at bosses. They want buffety buffers who can sorta tank. A majority of GFs don't know the caps on DR, arm pen, etc. They just keep stacking without knowing what they should do. When a friend of mine build a GF with a 150% DR, I just shrugged my shoulders. She liked it, oh well. But then complains when no one takes her for top content. Because, the community does not want a simple TANK. Each class has multiple functions that in a good party meta can win at the content. A dps GF build requires the party to provide the buff, debuff, etc, so that the uber damage can be done, just like...any other dps class.
So, either give constructive feedback with tests in preview, to help the devs balance THEIR goals for the game, or continue to be called out by those who disagree with your philosophy of gaming and how the game should be setup. I like the multiple synergies and the options to be a buffer with tanking tendencies in top content, and to switch to a simple PvE slightly dps setup for simpler content so that I can get my runs done in a short time.
And as far as the dps GF build, I don't care if it would get nerfed. I don't play it, don't have a loadout for it, and avoid it. But some players like it, use it well, and enjoy it. So be it. I don't care if a GF is top dps in tiamat and all others are less. I don't care if a DC would be top dps. All it tells me is that the player has found something unique that functions well under certain circumstances.
Guild--And the Imaginary Friends
A GF can attack with shield up, yes, again, try doing that on FBI/MSP alone as conqueror and then compare that to the much safer and aggressive/active OP playstyle and you'll see it isn't as good or practical as you may think it is as in fact it's subpar for dpsing and as it makes your toon move foward with each "poke", it can make you get past enemies and they can drop you real fast if you're built for as much dps as possible, you should get 1-2 shotted in t3. You attack with shield up, stamina gets drained and you get 1-2 or maaaaaybe 3 shotted although that shouldn't happen if you're trying to squeeze as much dps as you can from your toon.
While you're at that, try another thing since you don't seem to be okay with the separate layer of DR of GF even though without it,it is factually defenseless. Compare GF soloing FBI/MSP with shield down vs playing OP normally and tell me if that extra layer isn't needed. No, GF is not an OP so it has no business with temporary HP, it relies on a shield working as it should. Imagine OP getting is temp taken away and getting is sanctuary to block frontal damage only with a separate layer, that would mess the class up very hard as its mechanics wouldn't synergize as well with a GF-like shield as it would with the temp hp it was designed to work with (TW, BO, absolution and heroism and yes I know the last 2 are seldom if ever used) so it's the same with GF, it was designed to work with shield and as such, unless changing the class completely (powers, feats and mechanics) to the point it'd look like a new/different one, it wouldn't end up well.
OP can hit very very hard, buff really well and tank flawlessly at the same time, GF can hit harder yes that comes with tradeoffs and trying what I suggested you previously will show you that. Besides, OP is better for certain classes like CW thanks to AoC and powershare that can make that its main or second highest source of damage, there are already some groups who are starting to pick OP over GF thanks to its far superior versatility and overall more noticeable party utility.
Besides, as this is a pvp thread, it is also worth noting that a properly built OP hits truly hard and, assuming both players are similarly geared and skilled, the OP will mop the floor with a pvp GF and other classes as well. If you doubt this, I can try helping you contact this pvp OP I've seen (you should do it on your GF, build it for pvp), and fight him (you and I are on the same platform), that will show you paladins are surprisingly underrated in pvp, their survability - damage output ratio is significantly better than that of other classes GF included and this consistently proves overwhelming to them, resulting in OP killing the enemy. I also happen to have screenshots of combat logs from fighting that guy, I can send them to you if you want.