Official Feedback Thread: PVP Changes

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  • bvira
    bvira Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 385 Arc User

    I do not think PVP should only be for BIS maxed out players with rank 20 guilds and legendary mounts.

    I believe most people would agree. Ideally enchantments and other P2W items should all be disabled in PvP like some other games I've played but considering NW's business model, it most likely wouldn't happen.

  • sgrantdev#8718
    sgrantdev#8718 Member, Cryptic Developer Posts: 22 Cryptic Developer
    edited September 2017
    lowjohn said:


    lowjohn said:

    A new weekly quest has been added for participating in Stronghold PvP.

    So you're removing the quest reward for WINNING sh PVP, and adding one for PARTICIPATING in SH PVP? So people will get this reward win or lose?

    Or is this reward for *winning* a SH PVP match each week?
    There is still a bonus for winning a match. The goal here was to get the rewards for SHPVP in the player's face and hopefully get more people trying it out.
    I think you misunderstood my question. I'll try to be clearer.

    Is *this* reward, the new quest's reward, for WINNING, or for PARTICIPATING?

    I get that winning will grant more than losing. But I want to know if *this quest*, and those rewards, are for completing the match (so both teams get it, to encourage more people to run SH PVP), or for winning the match (so people who don't like PVP will still not want to queue, but to encourage competitive matches).

    Sorry I missed it earlier. It is a participation reward.
  • sgrantdev#8718
    sgrantdev#8718 Member, Cryptic Developer Posts: 22 Cryptic Developer

    Take a look at the crit formula for PvP please.

    Right now PvP is NOT properly testable.

    Can you give more detail please. Look at the crit formula for what? Why is it not testable?
  • dupeks
    dupeks Member Posts: 1,789 Arc User

    Take a look at the crit formula for PvP please.

    Right now PvP is NOT properly testable.

    Can you give more detail please. Look at the crit formula for what? Why is it not testable?
    Take a look at this:

    @sgrantdev#8718

    Look this:
    [Combat (Self)] Your Sure Strike deals 351 (625) Physical Damage to Haxeptance 8. normal hit 56% effectiveness [Combat (Self)] Critical Hit! Your Sure Strike deals 181 (907) Physical Damage to Haxeptance 8. critical hit 20% effectiveness There is something wrong.

    It feels like perhaps something about critical hits is causing them to be mitigated by the new non-tenacity pvp dampers multiple times. Or something else entirely. But crits just ain't doin right

  • krutious
    krutious Member Posts: 16 Arc User
    macjae said:

    As for the issue of Smoke Bomb and Courage Breaker, this should be addressed in some way if the goal really is to actually clear up the worst cases of CC making the game not fun to play in PVP.

    For several classes, this combination is incredibly toxic to play against. All that a GF can do is stand and block and hope not to die. An SW might be lucky to get a warlock's bargain off before the smoke descends. A GWF might eventually take enough damage to go unstoppable inside the smoke, but he'll still be getting slowed down by the effect of CB. And this isn't a corner case -- it's a pretty common occurrence in all these cases. TRs often stack so much Recovery and AP Gain that they can continuously maintain both effects. It's virtual perma-CC, but unlike oppressors or trappers, they don't even need to sacrifice much damage or survivability to get it (because their class abilities still mean they don't need to stack much ArPen or Crit to do effective damage).

    The effect of the current system of CC diminishing returns on this? Basically nil. Courage Breaker do not add any stacks. Smoke Bomb adds one (1) stack per application. Because of the long duration of both effects, CC immunity will pretty much never kick in (and still will not help against Courage Breaker).

    Next, besides the very cancerous nature of that particular combination, there is the effect of Courage Breaker itself on the game in a more strategic way. This daily is one of the more potent dailies for winning games where both teams are well coordinated, because it can control the mobility of other characters so much. Need to get to another node to help avoid it getting captured? Too bad. Need to get to another node to help capture it to counter your current node being captured? Too bad. You can't avoid it, dodge it, get out of it, and don't go immune to it (barring a few seconds' worth of immunity from using Oghma's once per minute, but then you also give up the opportunity to use another artifact).

    There are a few other issues with how the CC diminishing returns system interacts with these powers as well. Apparently, if you leave Smoke Bomb and reenter the area, you gain another stack. Thus, you can use that to quickly gain CC immunity in a controlled manner.

    The CC immunity stacks you gain should probably be gained based on actual time spent being CCed rather than gained on a per-power activation basis. That would mean that you wouldn't be able to pick up bonus stacks by running in and out of an effect like Smoke Bomb, and it would mean you would eventually gain CC immunity if you remain inside a Smoke Bomb for long enough.

    Meanwhile, Courage Breaker needs to either have the duration of its speed reduction drastically reduced against players, or to have the effect of its speed reduction drastically reduced against players. Imprisonment is a good example by contrast: Its duration is 15 seconds against NPCs, 4 seconds against players. It could still have the full duration on its damage reduction component, but the speed reduction needs to be drastically toned down in some way. It could possibly also be changed in that when players are immune to CC from the stacks, they should also be immune to the speed reduction from CB, but that would likely be too much if its slowing duration is lowered sufficiently anyway.

    CB is a daily,
    macjae said:

    As for the issue of Smoke Bomb and Courage Breaker, this should be addressed in some way if the goal really is to actually clear up the worst cases of CC making the game not fun to play in PVP.

    For several classes, this combination is incredibly toxic to play against. All that a GF can do is stand and block and hope not to die. An SW might be lucky to get a warlock's bargain off before the smoke descends. A GWF might eventually take enough damage to go unstoppable inside the smoke, but he'll still be getting slowed down by the effect of CB. And this isn't a corner case -- it's a pretty common occurrence in all these cases. TRs often stack so much Recovery and AP Gain that they can continuously maintain both effects. It's virtual perma-CC, but unlike oppressors or trappers, they don't even need to sacrifice much damage or survivability to get it (because their class abilities still mean they don't need to stack much ArPen or Crit to do effective damage).

    The effect of the current system of CC diminishing returns on this? Basically nil. Courage Breaker do not add any stacks. Smoke Bomb adds one (1) stack per application. Because of the long duration of both effects, CC immunity will pretty much never kick in (and still will not help against Courage Breaker).

    Next, besides the very cancerous nature of that particular combination, there is the effect of Courage Breaker itself on the game in a more strategic way. This daily is one of the more potent dailies for winning games where both teams are well coordinated, because it can control the mobility of other characters so much. Need to get to another node to help avoid it getting captured? Too bad. Need to get to another node to help capture it to counter your current node being captured? Too bad. You can't avoid it, dodge it, get out of it, and don't go immune to it (barring a few seconds' worth of immunity from using Oghma's once per minute, but then you also give up the opportunity to use another artifact).

    There are a few other issues with how the CC diminishing returns system interacts with these powers as well. Apparently, if you leave Smoke Bomb and reenter the area, you gain another stack. Thus, you can use that to quickly gain CC immunity in a controlled manner.

    The CC immunity stacks you gain should probably be gained based on actual time spent being CCed rather than gained on a per-power activation basis. That would mean that you wouldn't be able to pick up bonus stacks by running in and out of an effect like Smoke Bomb, and it would mean you would eventually gain CC immunity if you remain inside a Smoke Bomb for long enough.

    Meanwhile, Courage Breaker needs to either have the duration of its speed reduction drastically reduced against players, or to have the effect of its speed reduction drastically reduced against players. Imprisonment is a good example by contrast: Its duration is 15 seconds against NPCs, 4 seconds against players. It could still have the full duration on its damage reduction component, but the speed reduction needs to be drastically toned down in some way. It could possibly also be changed in that when players are immune to CC from the stacks, they should also be immune to the speed reduction from CB, but that would likely be too much if its slowing duration is lowered sufficiently anyway.

    Uhhh don't stand in the smoke and courage breaker is a daily,and yeah recovery is an important stat.for most classes ,smoke bomb has a pretty long cool down I think it is the longest TR encounter cool down,and as far as GF's go they have been reigning champs in pvp for a good while so yeah glad to see them struggle a bit more like everybody else,I am guessing you main a GF,I really wish players would stop asking for nerfs and start asking for upgrades/empowerment,add, not take away, TR's and SW's have both been abused enough with the Nerf bat.LEAVE THEM BOTH ALONE PLEASE.
  • whitestarua
    whitestarua Member Posts: 175 Arc User
    edited September 2017

    Take a look at the crit formula for PvP please.

    Right now PvP is NOT properly testable.

    Can you give more detail please. Look at the crit formula for what? Why is it not testable?
    You dont want to read my feedbacks :D:D

    @sgrantdev#8718

    Look this:
    [Combat (Self)] Your Sure Strike deals 351 (625) Physical Damage to Haxeptance 8. normal hit 56% effectiveness [Combat (Self)] Critical Hit! Your Sure Strike deals 181 (907) Physical Damage to Haxeptance 8. critical hit 20% effectiveness There is something wrong.

    Post edited by whitestarua on
  • sgrantdev#8718
    sgrantdev#8718 Member, Cryptic Developer Posts: 22 Cryptic Developer
    macjae said:

    He means the effect on critical hits while in PVP. It is currently lowering the effectiveness of critical hits much more than it should, which means we can't really see just how it affects a lot of things in PVP through practical testing.

    Do you mean the crit severity reduction seems like it is higher than the 40% or there seems to be a bug somewhere?

  • darthtzarr
    darthtzarr Member Posts: 1,003 Arc User
    edited September 2017

    macjae said:

    He means the effect on critical hits while in PVP. It is currently lowering the effectiveness of critical hits much more than it should, which means we can't really see just how it affects a lot of things in PVP through practical testing.

    Do you mean the crit severity reduction seems like it is higher than the 40% or there seems to be a bug somewhere?

    There is a bug involved

    Currently on preview Critical Severity is being reduced by 40% in PvP, but the old crit resistance buff is still contained within the PvP buff, which is making critical hits deal considerably less damage compared to normal hits. I assume it just hasn't been removed yet, but I am reporting it any ways just in case.

    EDIT -- copy+paste from the "future changes of pvp" thread, since I posted it there before this one was created.
    Post edited by darthtzarr on

    Signature [WIP] - tyvm John

  • ltgamesttv#0999
    ltgamesttv#0999 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,426 Arc User
    edited September 2017

    macjae said:

    He means the effect on critical hits while in PVP. It is currently lowering the effectiveness of critical hits much more than it should, which means we can't really see just how it affects a lot of things in PVP through practical testing.

    Do you mean the crit severity reduction seems like it is higher than the 40% or there seems to be a bug somewhere?

    What he means specifically is that when tenacity was transferred from gear on live to a "buff" for PVP on PTR they left in the 40% crit resistance and then (thinking that the crit reduction had been coded out) added a 40% crit severity resistance. Thus crits are being resisted on two fronts on PTR making them hit for less than non crit damage.

    This would simply appear to be a coding oversight in the changeover in tenacity from equipment bound to a PVP buff for all characters.
    Post edited by ltgamesttv#0999 on
    On ambush rings: "How would you like PVE if all the mobs were invisible?"

    imgur pics don't work


  • preechr#2215
    preechr#2215 Member Posts: 488 Arc User
    As our guild wanted the barracks for our SH, we were forced to try PVP. I really tried, but the barrier for entry for the unfamiliar is really high. This thread interests me, because while I hate PVP in the state its in and refuse to play it, removing the expensive tenacity armor requirement is definitely a step in the right direction
    That being said, Free CC immunity is nonsense. So, very high level players abuse it and very high level players that are abused by it find it annoying. For a new PVP player, CC may be the only thing they can bring to the table, and now there will be a hidden nerf to Control Powers, forcing them into trying to DPS where they can't compete with the 16Ks
    Even in PVE, CC builds aren't as effective as they could be since mobs can decide for themselves whether they want to be CC'd
    CC shouldn't just be a mechanism to proc more DPS. Control is a thing, and you shouldn't just give away immunity to it for free. There is no class in this game that has three viable paths in either mode of play... What would be so wrong with giving players the option of countering CC in their feats, sacrificing some of their DPS for the sake of staying alive and mobile long enough to do damage?
    Free CC immunity is as silly as me demanding free DPS immunity since my HR is only 9K and all she can bring to a PVP battle is CC. Instead of creating a new hidden mechanism that will just confuse new players and further force every class into the same exact build where the only way to be effective is based on item level, blow out one useless feat tree in each class and build in some counters to CC.

    I'm sure the PVPers in this thread know their builds and classes well enough to make some suggestions on which trees they rarely touch on each class. While builds based on CC immunity wouldn't be as necessary in PVE, more survivability is always welcome by some, so the old this effect against monsters/this effect against players trick might come in handy.

    Just my two sense.... I'll go back to PVE land now
  • ltgamesttv#0999
    ltgamesttv#0999 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,426 Arc User
    edited September 2017
    In order to best test the current PTR and any PVP changes it would be best to have target dummies in a PVP environment. Those with Fixed DR and Tenacity. This way we could use the test weapons and get the most reliable results rather than having to find partners, strip down to no gear, strip all feats, and then wack at each other and try to tease out if there are any confounding variables. Often I have time to test and others may be offline (I work odd hours) or may be trying to complete the new content. I think you would find quicker, more reliable information this way.

    Something as simple as placing dummies in open world PVP zones like Dwarven valley and Icewind Pass would be sufficient.
    On ambush rings: "How would you like PVE if all the mobs were invisible?"

    imgur pics don't work


  • darthtzarr
    darthtzarr Member Posts: 1,003 Arc User
    edited September 2017

    In order to best test the current PTR and any PVP changes it would be best to have target dummies in a PVP environment. Those with Fixed DR and Tenacity. This way we could use the test weapons and get the most reliable results rather than having to find partners, strip down to no gear, strip all feats, and then wack at each other and try to tease out if there are any confounding variables. Often I have time to test and others may be offline (I work odd hours) or may be trying to complete the new content. I think you would find quicker, more reliable information this way.

    Something as simple as placing dummies in open world PVP zones like Dwarven valley and Icewind Pass would be sufficient.

    It would be a very useful addition indeed. One suggestion I had earlier was to add even just an empty white box "training room" to the private pvp queues, which was allowed to be queued for solo, since we need more dummies like the Chult ones in a private area, pvp dummies, a healing dummy, and an attacking dummy at minimum for decent testing.

    Full list:
    PvE DPS
    Lv. 70 0% DR dummy
    Lv. 73 0% DR dummy
    Lv. 73 60% DR dummy
    Lv. 70 85% DR dummy
    Lv. 73 85% DR dummy

    PvP DPS (area must give players PvP buff, and dummies must have PvP buff)
    Lv. 70 0% DR dummy
    Lv. 70 50% DR dummy
    Lv. 70 150% DR dummy
    Lv. 70 0% DR dummy, with 100% deflection rate (50% severity)
    Lv. 70 80% DR dummy, with 100% deflection rate (50% severity)

    Support
    Lv. 70 Allied dummy 300,000 max HP, 0% DR dummy, does not regenerate HP (for testing healing)
    Lv. 70 Enemy dummy that deals exactly 300,000 damage to the first target dummy (for testing damage debuffs)
    Lv. 70 Allied dummy with 300,000 max HP, 0% DR, does not regenerate HP, and has healing suppression (for testing pvp healing)
    Lv. 70 Enemy dummy that deals exactly 300,000 piercing damage to the pvp healing dummy (for testing what blocks piercing damage)
    Fixed damage companion attacking a dummy, considered in the player's party (for testing ally buffs)
    Radius measurements on the floor

    Defenses (none of these dummies should chase the player)
    Lv. 70 enemy that deals exactly 1,000 damage to nearby players every 5 seconds
    Lv. 73 enemy that deals exactly 1,000 damage to nearby players every 5 seconds
    Lv. 70 enemy that deals exactly 1,000 piercing damage to nearby players every 5 seconds
    Lv. 70 enemy that deals exactly 100 damage over time to nearby players every 1 second
    Lv. 70 enemy that deals exactly 1,000 area of effect damage to nearby players every 5 second
    Lv. 70 enemy that deals exactly 1,000 unavoidable damage to nearby players every 5 seconds

    Signature [WIP] - tyvm John

  • darthtzarr
    darthtzarr Member Posts: 1,003 Arc User
    Another possible solution would be to create training dummy consumables that summon training dummies of various types.

    Signature [WIP] - tyvm John

  • ltgamesttv#0999
    ltgamesttv#0999 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,426 Arc User
    edited September 2017
    @sgrantdev#8718 Since there was questioning of my description of the current PTR issue related to Crit damage on other forums, I will post the formula that is in effect on PTR to help clarify:

    (1 - basetendr - crittendr) * (1 + (crit sev) * (1 - crittendr))

    This is what we're currently seeing on PTR which means both crit severity and crit damage is being resisted. It really should be:

    (1 - basetendr) * (1 + (crit sev) * (1 - crittendr)).

    Here are some ACT logs that show the crit issues:



    The image above is with a target who has 0% DR The attacker has Fixed damage weapons with 3%RI,10% damage bonus, 75% crit severity.



    The image above is with a target who has 0% DR. The attacker has Fixed damage weapons with 3% RI, 10% damage bonus, 113% crit severity.

    What you will see is what I had posted before, that crit damage is experiencing resist in two ways. This should be a relatively simple formula fix.

    Thanks for your time.



    Post edited by ltgamesttv#0999 on
    On ambush rings: "How would you like PVE if all the mobs were invisible?"

    imgur pics don't work


  • kalina311
    kalina311 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 2,079 Arc User
    edited September 2017
    @sgrantdev bugs asside most of these formulas and issues and questions were already in the 2 other pvp threads in the preview section Thanks for your feedback bro

    so courage breaker has been lowered to what then exactly ? what happens when you go in courage breaker and are smoke bombed and have full immunity CC stacks then ? can you move ??can you get out ? are you immune ?

    any thoughts on the lag in strongholds and what to do about it (hint no pets )
    when you guys relased the last 2 mods you had to lower the player population in the main areas down from 50 or so due to insane lag ... how laggy do you think it is with pets and pvp combat on a huge stronghold map then ? THERE IS NO ACTIVE COMBAT ON THE LAGFEST STRONGHOLD MAP AS IT IS !!

    its gonna be so laggy people will be happy just to stand at camp and get thier participation rewards and do nothing else
    even if they wanted to play .. most people have low to mid end video cards dude they cant handle frame rates with crazy effects from pets going off every where ..as i under stood it from other discussion you were one of the main devs responsible for (wonder / mess ) which is strongholds ..also the ability for 1 guy to troll a node and hold it against 10 people while inivisible .. not good bro

    how are pets affected and factored in to this pvp CC system of yours?? have you considered this > ?? every one will be instant cc imune on the stronghold map with pets !! NO PETS ON THE STRONGHOLD MAP .. for the sake of class balance come on dude !!!

    another thought/ comment the long CC immunity duration caters more to a premade group co ordinating attacks on mike making it slightly more strategic for group play .. how ever it does the opposite for wild wild west pickup matches
    where people are going in mobs and trying to gank/ have low gear score and need thier cc ...so i can see that


    cc scales better with lower gear scores tho and is tuned to be more more effective e on the low end low gear score players .. if they cant cc the only choice is to raise gear score to do more damage to "compete" and this effectively shut out certain classes / paragons from low level and even high level pvp and does not promote class diversity


    this meta shift is not going to suddenly make mediocre dps powers or powers that are seldom used good again in pvp


    perhaps certain classes / paragons should be flagged that they create 6 or 8 /12 immunity stacks instead of 4
    or like i said each personne should have thier own cc spam meter according to attacker and it not be global

    this global cc reduction this is not balanced or fair to cc classes ,, the idea i thought was to prevent stun locks and spamming and holding players for long duration ... why should some one unloading thier first Cc combo on a guy have it fail simply cause the opponent was battling with someone else ?...also since you cant change powers / loadout in combat so fast from cc to damage either to react to the fact that the guy is cc imune either
    Post edited by kalina311 on
  • bvira
    bvira Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 385 Arc User
    Bug: Some CC abilities do not apply CC stacks
    I haven't spent much time testing but I've found that DC's divinity Break the Spirit only applies 1 stack even if you use it more than once in quick succession; Forgemaster's Flame, divinity or not, doesn't apply any stack.

    For sure there're many more CC abilities from other classes suffering from the same problems. Tbh, I don't think we're remotely ready to implement this change in mod 12b. This will definitely cause major imbalance issues.

    Bug 2: DC's empowered BtS and FF still don't increase dmg on PTR

    Bug 3: Crit resistance reduces both crit severity and crit dmg
    As pointed out by many others above.
  • rayrdan
    rayrdan Member Posts: 5,410 Arc User
    im curious to see how the critical severity resistence will interact with combat advantage.......
  • kalina311
    kalina311 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 2,079 Arc User
    edited September 2017
    Im curious to see how this new CC stack system (with extra calculations) will make strongholds even laggier with pets ...turning it into a 1 frame a second stand at the fire and get your afk blood ruby once a week event.,.

    @devs trying running strongholds on a mid end pc while not on your local company intranet and post how smooth it is for all to see .. have some devs / mods / admins connect from Europe and Russia or anywhere and see .. its not about ping time .. the stronghold area is a lag fest when entering combat even more so with pets

    great so you fixed some of the random looping defect bugs in the game contributing to lag (in another thread ) .. its not going to be enough tho .,.
  • forumnamesuxs
    forumnamesuxs Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 490 Arc User
    Feedback quest: Storming the castle.
    Can you rename this to "Have fun storming the castle" ?



    Wolves, big as a horse! I need new pants!

  • mamalion1234
    mamalion1234 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 3,379 Arc User
    kalina311 said:

    @sgrantdev bugs asside most of these formulas and issues and questions were already in the 2 other pvp threads in the preview section Thanks for your feedback bro

    so courage breaker has been lowered to what then exactly ? what happens when you go in courage breaker and are smoke bombed and have full immunity CC stacks then ? can you move ??can you get out ? are you immune ?

    any thoughts on the lag in strongholds and what to do about it (hint no pets )
    when you guys relased the last 2 mods you had to lower the player population in the main areas down from 50 or so due to insane lag ... how laggy do you think it is with pets and pvp combat on a huge stronghold map then ? THERE IS NO ACTIVE COMBAT ON THE LAGFEST STRONGHOLD MAP AS IT IS !!

    its gonna be so laggy people will be happy just to stand at camp and get thier participation rewards and do nothing else
    even if they wanted to play .. most people have low to mid end video cards dude they cant handle frame rates with crazy effects from pets going off every where ..as i under stood it from other discussion you were one of the main devs responsible for (wonder / mess ) which is strongholds ..also the ability for 1 guy to troll a node and hold it against 10 people while inivisible .. not good bro

    how are pets affected and factored in to this pvp CC system of yours?? have you considered this > ?? every one will be instant cc imune on the stronghold map with pets !! NO PETS ON THE STRONGHOLD MAP .. for the sake of class balance come on dude !!!

    another thought/ comment the long CC immunity duration caters more to a premade group co ordinating attacks on mike making it slightly more strategic for group play .. how ever it does the opposite for wild wild west pickup matches
    where people are going in mobs and trying to gank/ have low gear score and need thier cc ...so i can see that


    cc scales better with lower gear scores tho and is tuned to be more more effective e on the low end low gear score players .. if they cant cc the only choice is to raise gear score to do more damage to "compete" and this effectively shut out certain classes / paragons from low level and even high level pvp and does not promote class diversity


    this meta shift is not going to suddenly make mediocre dps powers or powers that are seldom used good again in pvp


    perhaps certain classes / paragons should be flagged that they create 6 or 8 /12 immunity stacks instead of 4
    or like i said each personne should have thier own cc spam meter according to attacker and it not be global

    this global cc reduction this is not balanced or fair to cc classes ,, the idea i thought was to prevent stun locks and spamming and holding players for long duration ... why should some one unloading thier fist Cc combo on a guy have it fail simply cause the opponent was battling with someone else ?...also since you cant change powers / loadout in combat so fast from cc to damage either to react to the fact that the guy is cc imune either

    I think the reduced duration against pvp targets is an enough adjustment.