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Three Things to Help Rebalance TRs

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  • pitshadepitshade Member Posts: 5,447 Arc User
    Can we at least have Jarlaxle's hat? (I mean without an attached mask!) ;)
    "We have always been at war with Dread Vault" ~ Little Brother
  • sirjimbofrancissirjimbofrancis Member Posts: 348 Arc User
    Nothing, y'all. I expect they'll say something in the live feed on Thursday. I ran into a dev today, playing, and they said they had no information about any TR rebalance. They said that it was in the hands of the designers. I expect that means nothing is going to happen anytime soon, but we'll find out for sure on Thursday, I guess.

    The one thing I can say for sure: a minimal amount of communication would go a long way. The total lack thereof is pretty disappointing. Sorry, we wasted our time, y'all.
    Lilia Drakon - PVE Executioner TR
    She Looked Lvl 18

    Here is my Blog
  • ravenskyaravenskya Member Posts: 1,891 Arc User
    @sirjimbofrancis unfortunately there isn't a sad face - there is only a LOL button.
    Founding Member of "Wrong Side of the Stronghold"
    Ravenskya - TR / Krisha Chaos - OP / Waffles - GF / Dex Domitor - HR
    Becky the trendy GWF - GWF / Too Toasty - SW / Falcor - DC / Morrigan - CW / Sir Didymus - OP

  • talon1970talon1970 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 152 Arc User
    Disappointed..totally disappointed after the stream...

    Once more these "Yeah be patienced, we are looking, we are reading....but we don't do anything."

    Once more..why do we always have to wait for so long, why always these "one step forward and two steps back" policy.

    Once more, we don't call for an nerf to other classes, we DO call to bring us more in PvE on the same level as other classes.

    Once more we had to read the complaining between PvP and PvE players.

    Once more our (we PvE only Players) disappointment and frustration grows higher and higher, week for week, month for month, from Modul to Modul...

    And from my side, my apologize to the SW players in the stream, also asking for an buff, and couldn't be heard, bc so many Tr's were asking/writing/begging, we know (i think better than others) your also growing frustration.
  • sirjimbofrancissirjimbofrancis Member Posts: 348 Arc User
    I gotta say, I'm pretty disappointed. But, maybe it wasn't as fruitless as my first impression. We had a lot of TRs on. Hopefully they took note.
    Lilia Drakon - PVE Executioner TR
    She Looked Lvl 18

    Here is my Blog
  • ravenskyaravenskya Member Posts: 1,891 Arc User
    They are lucky TR's can't riot... they'd never see us coming, I mean we wouldn't do much damage when we got there (especially us WK's), and any thing we did would have a cool down of like 20 minutes, but there would certainly be a lot of us there!
    Founding Member of "Wrong Side of the Stronghold"
    Ravenskya - TR / Krisha Chaos - OP / Waffles - GF / Dex Domitor - HR
    Becky the trendy GWF - GWF / Too Toasty - SW / Falcor - DC / Morrigan - CW / Sir Didymus - OP

  • soundoffury#1455 soundoffury Member Posts: 10 Arc User
    We certainly tried. The angry TR mob was rather heartwarming though. Time to band together for the AMA guys.
    Brixian Wynn - TR | Lasagna - DC | Rionach - GF ... and some other classes I'm ignoring
  • talon1970talon1970 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 152 Arc User
    So after a bad night, i am still angry and disappionted, but i still believe that the main failures were made in the past.
    With the introducing from NW it was an PvE focused game with an tiny PvP aspect (only two maps and still nowadays, SH pvp is not that popular and also GG PvP as fas as i know), so the main failure was not to seperate PvP from PvE.
    Tbh who cares how strong a class is in PvE, for me it doesn't matter, and espaiccelly Pug Groups could have be easier, picking up another dps class (if neccessary) and not have to wait until a special class is answering.

    So also i strongly believe, that it is very hard to balance each class and maybe our class is the most complicated, and with each change in the game, not only new moduls and new boons makes it harder, it is also some "minor" changes, like new mounts, mount powers, a new class, maybe a new race, the interaction between classes, races enchants, weapon enchants... long story short, the whole package, could lead to something, that one or two classes ar far superior comparing to others.

    So also, noone from us has an insight how many people are working on the sector: Class balancing and the other stuff i have mentioned above.
    Lets say (hypothetical) two people, so these two people have to struggle against (also hypothetical) against maybe 200 people worldwide, testing stuff on the preview, or for the console players on their live server.
    And from these 200 people there are maybe 20 willing to share their insight/experience, with some stuff to write guides for their class, or trying to tell the devs: "Ehm guys these and that, is maybe a little bit out of control, take a look at that."
    The rest, maybe there are hiding some suspicious interactions, so that they can clear the content more easier, as it is nowadys. (Count only for very good to BiS partys, i do also believe, that not very well geared or build partys have to struggle.)

    Next point, i also believe, that the Tr is one of the most played class from beginners, but i also believe that it is the most dumped class, when these people realized in what shape the Tr is.
    So if the devs are able to check their datas i bet they will be surprised that it is true, what i said, bc i could see it in my guild.
    There are only two long time players left, maining an Tr (One of them is an scoundrel bc he loved that more, than i would say a more viable path like sabo or exe, and me). Happily we have two new players also maining a Tr, but i am a little bit afraid how long it would be. (Needless to say, that my Scoundrel mate has now more fun with his DoDc dps Char).

  • rustlordrustlord Member Posts: 1,454 Arc User
    edited August 2017
    rustlord said:

    But in a world where Paladin can have 1.5K kills in leaderboard, GF can do 150K+ bullcharge, TANKS!, please consider how 100K is not balanced for a full DPS TR class. [...] In PvE, we have reached a consensus among the best TRs that Shadow of Demise and Duelist Flurry take too long to become effective, that enemies are oftentimes dead before we can see a single Shadow of Demise hit. Please take this into account if you ought to rebalance this feat yet again. One way is to change the way this feat deals damage from dealing burst damage after 6 seconds, to spreading the piercing damage over the duration, also much like how Piercing Blades work.

    Quoting myself from the PTR thread on the Shadow of Demise fiasco in PvP. I thought it may be relevant to bring some attention to PvE. But please post your thoughts where it matters. It's good that we're talking to each other here, but it looks as now we have one dev who cares at all, and I doubt he's getting paid to read all forum threads.

    TY

    https://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter/#/discussion/1231984/official-feedback-thread-m12-private-pvp-queues-a-bit-about-where-pvp-is-headed/p12
    https://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter#/discussion/1233758/trs-feat-shadow-of-demise-has-a-bug
  • sirjimbofrancissirjimbofrancis Member Posts: 348 Arc User
    Thanks for posting that @rustlord!
    Lilia Drakon - PVE Executioner TR
    She Looked Lvl 18

    Here is my Blog
  • blur#5900 blur Member Posts: 490 Arc User
    edited August 2017
    I can still hear @rgutscheradev words, "turning the kn0bs" and that TR should be the best single target dps, easily.
    It can be done by adjusting (turning the kn0b) our, at the same time, main issue and main source of damage - Duelist's Flurry.

    First step as suggested already, turning the kn0b to make applying Bleeds 100% instead of a chance. That solves our main issue in fast runs and on moving targets, we cant or dont have time to apply Bleeds.
    Second step is increasing number of Bleed stacks. We know that our Bleeds stack 11 times, instead of 10. We dont know if that is a bug, even tho we reported it as one, or it was a hidden buff at some point. Lets turn the kn0b and allow it to stack 12 times and then lets see if TR is strongest on single target or not. If not we can turn the kn0b more and make it 13 or 14, if its too much you can turn the kn0b again and lower it. With more damage from Bleeds our damage from SoD will be higher as well so we should not turn the kn0b too much. It is very helpful in PvE and it is not noticable in PvP. Higher damage from Duelists Flurry will help new players who decided to pick TR class, players which dont have enough experience with it yet.

    If the dev team thinks increase to 12 stacks would be enough and one ability should not be too powerful then they can work on our second suggestion which is Stealth giving additional crit severity, an adequate number. This one is more complicated since its attaching a new effect to Stealth but overall would be wider improvement. It would boost our aoe as well, more kick from Smoke bomb, Dazing strike, WoB, Blade Flurry and in single target combat it would make Lashing Blade and Dazing Strike shine more. It would boost DF as well, i guess.

    If you are looking to turn the kn0bs then TR is easily fixable and reversible if it turns out that it is too much, at least when it comes to Duelist's Flurry. Even Stealth with additional crit severity can be adjusted by turning the kn0b, for example, if it turns out that 80% crit severity is too much, turn the kn0b and make it 30%.

    Please schedule some time to improve the TRs.
    @nitocris83

    Edit: I know that this is not what we wanted at beginning, no improvement for Whisperknife and Scoundrel and all other things we discussed but lets try to improve one thing which works.
    Post edited by blur#5900 on
    image
  • demonmongerdemonmonger Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 3,350 Arc User
    edited August 2017
    > @sirjimbofrancis said:
    > In an effort to try to whittle down our original list of TR balance suggestions to better align with the new plan for class rebalance, I thought I would try to pick three things that would be easier to implement, with a minimal effect between PVE and PVP, and would help our class the most.
    >
    > First, let me explain where I am coming from with regards to the TR class. TRs can do well in PVE content. However, everything we do, other classes do better. Without relying on bugs, and everything being equal (gear,skill, etc), can a TR compete in mob damage with a CW, HR, or GWF? Can a TR compete in single target damage with GWFs or HRs? Can a TR compete with any other class in party buffs? It's not that we are terrible. We can complete Solo content. We can contribute to a party. But, we are not on par with nearly every DPS class out there.
    >
    > I know there will be a few that disagree with me on that point. Even a few TRs. And, they can totally do that. But, they can't say I don't know how the TR works or claim I am ignorant or don't know how to play. And, I'm not drawing from only my experience. My efforts here are meant to be constructive. Try to keep the comments likewise, please.
    >
    > Special thanks for this go out to Janne, Blur, and all the TRs from the Facebook group!
    >
    > 1) Duelist Flurry:
    >
    > Known Bugs:
    >
    > Duelist's Flurry Bleeds - When Bleeds are re-applied only the timer is refreshed. Damage from the Bleeds is not refreshed to benefit from buffs of the moment when they were re-applied. This causes the Bleeds not to receive buffs such as Demon Lord's Immortality set and many other which were not active when Bleeds were applied the first time. Are the Bleeds separated when applied to same target, or do all TRs share the same stack?
    >
    > Also, currently Bleeds stack to 11 instead fo 10. We dont know if this was a intended hidden buff, but Bleed icon and ACT show different numbers.
    >
    > Also, the number of bleed ticks after the bleed is applied seems to be random. For example, with two bleeds, we got 5 ticks. With one bleed, we got 7 ticks. With one rotation (about 5 bleeds), we got anywhere from 9-11 ticks. The word "random" really ought to be in the tooltip a lot...;)
    >
    > Duelist's Flurry (DF) - The ability is unforgiving, with lag, particularly. But, whatever is causing it, the hits of the Flurry part, which are supposed to apply Bleeds, are skipping and when that happens, fewer bleeds are applied. The maximum number of hits in a full DF is 9, but as shown in a screenshot in the old thread, it drops to as few as 2.
    >
    > Suggestions for Rework:
    >
    > The biggest proportion of the damage TRs do in PVE comes from duelist's flurry. Depending on the build, even conservatively, it accounts for greater than 30% of TR's overall damage. Some bosses like FBI (Drufi and Hati), or mSVA, or 2nd boss in mSP, either move a lot, or appear for short phases of time, limiting the effectiveness of this power. No other class is as handicapped with their at-wills, and consequently their damage, as TRs are by this mechanic.
    >
    > The reason for this problem is because it takes long time to set up a full stack of bleeds on a target (about 3 flurries). In addition, the randomness of the flurry bleed stacking, as outlined in the known bugs section, makes it much more difficult, when compared to other classes, to have a single rotation. It forces TRs to try to watch for the stack numbers, which is nearly impossible with the tiny text in the moving debuff list. Also, the length of the mechanic is unforgiving for mistakes or extended dodges. For example, if the TR is caught in ice, the full bleed is not applied. Or, if the TR dodges too far, or makes a rotation mistake, the full bleed is not applied.
    >
    > Our suggestion is to make a single flurry add all 10 stacks of bleed. This makes adding bleeds not a "chance", but a reliable system. This allows TRs to have higher overall burst, less time to set up the damage, and an easier mechanic as TRs can make a fixed rotation.
    >
    > Another suggestion is to change 10 bleeds into one single Bleed which is damage wise equal to current 10(11). Any hit of the Flurry can apply it and once applied it doesn't stack.
    >
    > 2) Tab/Stealth Mechanic:
    >
    > Known Bugs:
    >
    > When Soulforged activates under the effect of Lurker's Assault our Stealth gets stuck and will not recharge unless we change instance or relog.
    >
    > Suggestions for Rework:
    >
    > The stealth mechanic is the primary TR skill, and it has a unique problem. Although, the main advantage granted by stealth is automatic critical strike and combat advantage, it doesn't last long enough for TRs to abandon allocating points in critical strike, because a high percentage of TR damage comes from attacks performed outside of stealth. This creates a situation where stealth provides very little in PVE since most of time TRs already have combat advantage, and already have a high critical strike percentage. Because of this, the TR's tab mechanic grants the smallest advantage when compared to every other class in PVE content.
    >
    > As of now, stealth adds 100% critical chance as a direct rating modifier. For example, when the stealth button is pressed, a TR with a 70% critical chance will then have a 170% critical chance. Obviously, 170% critical chance is in no way better than 100%.
    >
    > This suggestion originally outlined in this post by @hoperuby, offered an interesting solution. In short, it suggests taking the extra percentage in stealth over 100%, and add that to the critical severity percentage. So a player with 70% crit would receive 70% crit severity when they enter stealth.
    >
    > A more simple solution would be to simply add 50% crit severity while using stealth. This also allows a nice scaling as it will help lower leveled and lower geared TRs much more than BIS TRs.
    >
    >
    > 3) AoE Attacks:
    >
    > TRs only have a few AOE attacks that are viable at endgame content: smoke bomb and blade Flurry. It would be nice to have another option, and PoTB might be it, but it's damage is so super small, it needs to be upped. Maybe as much as a 4x or 5x what it does now.
    >
    > Another option would be to add an aoe at-will attack. We are really deficient there. I know adding a new power may be more than you all want to take on, so consider making a little used at-will like Gloaming Cut, and make it into an aoe. It isn't particularly fast, and would be on par with GWF and GF's Master Weapon Strike. Something that can hit multiple enemies in a wide arc in front of you.
    >
    > Note: The reworked weapon enchantments have not been useful for the TR class because they do not proc on Path of the Blade, or (more importantly) smoke bomb. The TR power that has the most utility in the game is smoke bomb. And, it doesn't work with any of the new enchants.
    >
    > Please fix this interaction with these two powers, so that we can take advantage of some of the new enchantments, as every other class has be able to do.
    >
    > Thank you for taking the time to read, and if you want to spend more time on TR class and make other trees and paragon useful please check our compiled suggestions in old thread here.
    >
    > @terramak
    > @dreadnaught#5263
    > @chaidrin#2320
    > @nitocris83
    > @asterdahl
    > @mimicking#6533

    Hell no to changing gloaming cut... this is the staple to my build.. aoe hmmm
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    I hate paying taxes! Why must I pay thousands of dollars in taxes when everything I buy is taxed anyways!
  • blur#5900 blur Member Posts: 490 Arc User
    edited August 2017
    @demonmonger Nothing would change for Gloaming cut except damage hitting wider area, at least that was the idea but you dont have to worry about it. Such changes are very unlikely to happen as it seems that devs prefer to just increase or decrease damage numbers.
    image
  • demonmongerdemonmonger Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 3,350 Arc User
    Yay!
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    I hate paying taxes! Why must I pay thousands of dollars in taxes when everything I buy is taxed anyways!
  • faberj#7515 faberj Member Posts: 7 Arc User
    Are there any news on TR balance? I ask why I have a Tr 13.3K optimized, and many are telling me to delete it and dedicate myself to other DPSs, really bad, which could lead to my account being deleted. I ask you, is there really much difference with the other classes? and how much in%? Thanks so much
  • spideymtspideymt Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 710 Arc User

    I have a Tr 13.3K optimized, and many are telling me to delete it and dedicate myself to other DPSs, really bad, which could lead to my account being deleted

    Do you allways listen to other ppl? Do you have fun playing a TR? So yout got your answer.
    If someone dare to say i should delete my class? ---> welcome to my ignore list, even if this person is in my guilde.

  • archangelzorak01archangelzorak01 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 324 Arc User
    @faberj
    Its hard to say in specific %'s by how much another class may do more or less dmg. Some classes perform better in single target while others perform better in aoe. Some classes have better burst damage while others have better sustained. In the end it all comes down to whether or not your groups succeed or not, and that has more to do with the entire group composition than who the dps is.

    I can safely say that TR's are currently under-performing and that is something that the developers have mentioned numerous times. They have said it is something they wish to adjust but who knows when they'll actually get around to it. If you enjoy playing TR then you should stick with it, you've already invested in it and I can promise you it will be rewarding if you master it. Anyone who tells you you're not welcome in their group because your a TR and TR's can't do damage is an ignorant twat.

    Bottom line: If you play well and allocate your stats appropriately you will NOT be detrimental to the success of your groups. TR may not be an overpowered, mindless killing machine like certain classes.. but we're certainly capable of holding our own. Hopefully someday soon we'll get the adjustments we deserve.

    If you ever have any questions or are looking for advice or direction feel free to contact me in game (PC) and I'd be happy to help if I can. I'm sure some of the other guys here would be willing to do the same, many of the TR's from this thread are excellent players and good people.
    Neverwinter Module 6: The only MMO expansion in the history of MMO's to remove more content than it added.


  • faberj#7515 faberj Member Posts: 7 Arc User
    You're right, even though it's hard to make DPS the class is nice to play and I think I will not leave it. My TR is very good at single target, I lose a bit in area damage, I have to work on it and maybe change rotation by including the devotee's seal.
  • chad#0696 chad Member Posts: 9 Arc User
    edited November 2017
    I think the idea that stealth should give crit severity is a great idea. It helps all TR builds equally and can be easily tweaked to an acceptable balance. Like mentioned before, the 100% crit from stealth is wasted on 100% crit builds, which I feel is necessary for a good Exec build. DF is too hard to stack on moving mobs and with all the interruptions from new mobs(especially in T9G) it makes it near impossible to stack max bleeds. Not to mention the obvious flaw with shadow of demise not having enough time to proc in 80%+ of trash mobs. We *should* be the best single target DPS but a GWF or even a CW on orcus in T9G with the buff can outperform a TR who takes the buff by over 100 mil. I also think the TR suffers horribly from framerate drop and latency, which is a client side issue, but other classes have measures to prevent wasting abilities when a target moves out of range. I can't even BEGIN to count the hours upon hours of total time I've spent doing a DF flurry to thin air or swinging a fully buffed LB through a fat cloud of nothing. A few simple a adjustments could allow these skills to go off cooldown if no target is hit. At any rate, I hope they do something soon. I'm getting tired of waiting and my 10k GWF is already clearing Chult like it were a leveling area.
    EDIT: I forgot to mention that ITC seems broken AF right now, which is our only defensive ability, which means more interruptions. And with the overcharge ability on SOMI relic weapons making us forgo dodge rolls for fear of triggering the defense overcharge, I find myself biting the bullet and taking more hits to the face than a TR ever should.
  • chad#0696 chad Member Posts: 9 Arc User
    I feel like too much thought is given to balancing TRs in PvP because of the army of cry hards who are surprised when they get 1 shot from 50% health, and no tenacity. I doubt I'm the only one who feels PvP is secondary to PvE. I enjoy PvP as much as the next TR, but virtually all content (especially new content) is geared toward PvE gameplay. Why should TRs take unnecessary nerfs that concern less than 10% of gameplay?
  • blur#5900 blur Member Posts: 490 Arc User
    I am guessing there wont be any rework at all since they are unable to balance TR's to be strong enough in PvE and not too strong in PvP. We could see small changes, like what is planned with Shadowborn(its something).
    Also with the change to how enchants are procced (just on the first tick) they will lower damage of some other classes rather than improving TR's damage.
    image
  • armadeonxarmadeonx Member Posts: 4,952 Arc User
    The devs have stated the TR will be the next class to receive a full rework.

    For pvp the only thing they need to do is have separate pvp/pve definitions on dailies and encounters.
    Please Do Not Feed The Trolls

    Xael De Armadeon: DC
    Xane De Armadeon: CW
    Zen De Armadeon: OP
    Zohar De Armadeon: TR
    Chrion De Armadeon: SW
    Gosti Big Belly: GWF
    Barney McRustbucket: GF
    Lt. Thackeray: HR
    Lucius De Armadeon: BD


    Member of Casual Dailies - XBox
  • chad#0696 chad Member Posts: 9 Arc User
    Apparently "TR rework" is code for multiple nerfs. I understand that things like stacking WoB or SoD receiving double buffs were not intended, but as an already struggling class if they continue to "fix" things that give us tiny edges over other classes, a balance becomes further and further out of the question.
    Anyone have links to patch notes where they adjusted SoD? I heard it's only a PvP buff, not PvE as ArP in PvE is generally maxed on top characters anyway. And now I hear a rumor that our combat advantage damage is taking a nerf soon. Are PvE TRs a hopeless cause now? Neverwinter is NOT a PvP game. PvP accounts for less than 5% of total game content so why are we constantly subjected to PvP balances that hurt our already aching PvE performance?

    Where are the developer commenters?

    BumpBump.
  • wintersmokewintersmoke Member Posts: 1,634 Arc User
    spideymt said:

    I have a Tr 13.3K optimized, and many are telling me to delete it and dedicate myself to other DPSs, really bad, which could lead to my account being deleted

    Do you allways listen to other ppl? Do you have fun playing a TR? So yout got your answer.
    If someone dare to say i should delete my class? ---> welcome to my ignore list, even if this person is in my guilde.
    Delete your class!
  • rannxeroxxrannxeroxx Member Posts: 168 Arc User
    pitshade said:

    Can we at least have Jarlaxle's hat? (I mean without an attached mask!) ;)

    BTW, I want a redcap hat. Why can't my ranger toss on a redcap hat, those things are cool!
  • pitshadepitshade Member Posts: 5,447 Arc User
    They drop for all classes in Master of the Hunt, BtA. It might take some time to get the right class of course.
    "We have always been at war with Dread Vault" ~ Little Brother
  • rannxeroxxrannxeroxx Member Posts: 168 Arc User
    I played my TR to LV 60 but just was not happy with the Trapper build. I like the switching and such as it just gens up lots of encounter powers but he was just so weak that he would die so often in melee. I used my second loadout to create a Archer build and I have really enjoyed that a lot more. He does loads of damage, buffs the party a tad, and stays out of melee to survive.

    Things I would fix with the TR...
    1) Trappers - When they switches to melee, increase the buff to survive melee for x amount of seconds.

    2) Give more reasons for wanting one in a party with a TH with good party buffing. Not sure if its more control or more damage or what but pick one and focus on buffing that. PVE is fine with a jack of all trades but parties typically needs a role filled.

    Ultimately a trapper or ranger is not really what I wanted to play anyway. I wanted to play a archer. Almost would want a specific new fighter class of it. Would love frost/fire type of powers, maybe a smoke arrow that gives your allies stealth in that area, maybe a barrage that functions like the death beam the SW does that just floods a cone. Etc.
  • pitshadepitshade Member Posts: 5,447 Arc User
    TR is Trickster Rogue, you seem to be thinking of Hunter Rangers.
    "We have always been at war with Dread Vault" ~ Little Brother
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