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PVP Changes on Preview: CC Immunity Issues
macjae
Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 2,415 Arc User
After having done some basic testing.
The system for stacking CC immunity is broken as it is now. The core idea is good, because being constantly CCed sucks, but the execution needs a lot of work.
A few quick tests on Preview showed the following, which are all pretty bad:
- Repel adds two stacks of CC resist on its own. From a single power. Probably a separate stack each from the stun and the push.
- Procs from the CW feat Severe Reaction are enough to trigger the CC immunity stacks. Thus, all a character has to do is get close to a CW that has that feat (which is generally important for CWs in PVP) and hit them, and they can be permanently immune to CC.
- Casting the daily Oppressive Force makes those who stand in it immune to CC. The same applies to other powers like Smoke Bomb which have multiple mini-procs going. Presumably, Trappers have it even worse.
What this means is that the CC immunity system most specifically affects classes that have lower recharge times and smaller CC effects. Meanwhile, certain rotations, like some GF combinations, are much less affected, because they have higher recharge times, meaning that less of their relative effectiveness is eaten up. While this is obviously not something that can be easily accounted for in a simple system, it does have fairly serious effects on class balancing, but also on class roles. CWs specifically as controllers actually don't have very good control effects at a base level, it's just that nearly all their powers have a control component, and they rely on combining and chaining their control powers to be effective. Other classes actually have control effects that have longer base durations, or that aren't even considered control powers (hello, Courage Breaker).
Beyond that, there is a risk to a certain extent here of throwing the baby out with the bathwater; part of what makes PVP fun is landing combos of powers, and this system risks reducing a lot of that to simply spamming maximally damaging powers. As it is, landing some combos can be pretty hard already, as most players have plenty of immunity frames as it is, and even a hint of lag can mess it up. Lots of powers actually require you to use another power first in order to land it. In order to hit with Ice Knife, for example, a CW generally has to use Repel first (because other CC effects don't last long enough -- though that may change if Elven Battle becomes less prevalent, which the stacking CC resistance probably will ensure, that stacking resistance itself may just make it worse).
While I think that the schtick of specs like Oppressor or Trapper, which is basically making people permanently helpless, is pretty toxic, they shouldn't be made completely useless either.
Right now, the immunity window can potentially be reached very quickly, and lasts for a long time. While this can be mitigated somewhat by careful timing and power selections, it can also have a profound effect on the ability to effectively combine some powers. It is also a huge issue that certain random procs (such as Severe Reaction) will apparently add stacks of CC immunity.
As a matter of adjustments, I'd suggest considering the following:
- At a bare minimum, add an ICD to how often you can gain stacks so that it takes a minimum regulated time before CC immunity kicks in, and so that certain powers won't be applying multiple stacks (at least not too fast). This is also necessary to avoid procs from certain feats and features from stacking up CC immunity with little real effect to the target.
- Reduce the length of the immunity frame once you get it. It's too damn long right now.
- As an option to the above, consider adding another stack, or shifting the way the resistance works so that there's a less linear progression; i.e. rather than going from 0% -> 25% -> 50% -> 75% -> 100%, going from 0% -> 15% -> 30% -> 50% -> 100% would make CC effect durations feel a little more consistent and predictable.
- Push effects should not give stacks of CC immunity. There are a few specific ones of these that are useful in PVP, and they actually perform a crucial role in positioning and node defense. Repel, Sun Burst and Bull Charge all have this function. There's also the part where effects like those should be available to counter zone effects like Astral Shield (which recently received a tone-down because it was too strong), and they perform a crucial defensive function as well for CWs particularly. (There's also a double effect at play here: Severe Reaction is an important defensive feat for CWs, and it is made absolutely useless, in fact counterproductive, by these changes as they stand right now, so there's a double loss on top of losing overall control ability.)
- Courage Breaker needs to be treated as a CC effect for this system. Not necessarily the damage debuff, but the slow effect.
(Of course, there's also a counterpoint that some CC effects will be better in PVP in some cases because Tenacity won't reduce their base duration when players don't have any immunity stacks yet, but overall that mainly applies to certain abilities with longer cooldowns.)
Another point to all of this is that certain classes can currently really only be fought and effectively brought down by massive application of CC combined with high burst damage, and in other cases, some classes are already too resistant to CC (or damage in general). Those classes also happen to have the ability to inflict very large amounts of damage (which in a couple of cases is decidedly contrary to their intended class role).
The system for stacking CC immunity is broken as it is now. The core idea is good, because being constantly CCed sucks, but the execution needs a lot of work.
A few quick tests on Preview showed the following, which are all pretty bad:
- Repel adds two stacks of CC resist on its own. From a single power. Probably a separate stack each from the stun and the push.
- Procs from the CW feat Severe Reaction are enough to trigger the CC immunity stacks. Thus, all a character has to do is get close to a CW that has that feat (which is generally important for CWs in PVP) and hit them, and they can be permanently immune to CC.
- Casting the daily Oppressive Force makes those who stand in it immune to CC. The same applies to other powers like Smoke Bomb which have multiple mini-procs going. Presumably, Trappers have it even worse.
What this means is that the CC immunity system most specifically affects classes that have lower recharge times and smaller CC effects. Meanwhile, certain rotations, like some GF combinations, are much less affected, because they have higher recharge times, meaning that less of their relative effectiveness is eaten up. While this is obviously not something that can be easily accounted for in a simple system, it does have fairly serious effects on class balancing, but also on class roles. CWs specifically as controllers actually don't have very good control effects at a base level, it's just that nearly all their powers have a control component, and they rely on combining and chaining their control powers to be effective. Other classes actually have control effects that have longer base durations, or that aren't even considered control powers (hello, Courage Breaker).
Beyond that, there is a risk to a certain extent here of throwing the baby out with the bathwater; part of what makes PVP fun is landing combos of powers, and this system risks reducing a lot of that to simply spamming maximally damaging powers. As it is, landing some combos can be pretty hard already, as most players have plenty of immunity frames as it is, and even a hint of lag can mess it up. Lots of powers actually require you to use another power first in order to land it. In order to hit with Ice Knife, for example, a CW generally has to use Repel first (because other CC effects don't last long enough -- though that may change if Elven Battle becomes less prevalent, which the stacking CC resistance probably will ensure, that stacking resistance itself may just make it worse).
While I think that the schtick of specs like Oppressor or Trapper, which is basically making people permanently helpless, is pretty toxic, they shouldn't be made completely useless either.
Right now, the immunity window can potentially be reached very quickly, and lasts for a long time. While this can be mitigated somewhat by careful timing and power selections, it can also have a profound effect on the ability to effectively combine some powers. It is also a huge issue that certain random procs (such as Severe Reaction) will apparently add stacks of CC immunity.
As a matter of adjustments, I'd suggest considering the following:
- At a bare minimum, add an ICD to how often you can gain stacks so that it takes a minimum regulated time before CC immunity kicks in, and so that certain powers won't be applying multiple stacks (at least not too fast). This is also necessary to avoid procs from certain feats and features from stacking up CC immunity with little real effect to the target.
- Reduce the length of the immunity frame once you get it. It's too damn long right now.
- As an option to the above, consider adding another stack, or shifting the way the resistance works so that there's a less linear progression; i.e. rather than going from 0% -> 25% -> 50% -> 75% -> 100%, going from 0% -> 15% -> 30% -> 50% -> 100% would make CC effect durations feel a little more consistent and predictable.
- Push effects should not give stacks of CC immunity. There are a few specific ones of these that are useful in PVP, and they actually perform a crucial role in positioning and node defense. Repel, Sun Burst and Bull Charge all have this function. There's also the part where effects like those should be available to counter zone effects like Astral Shield (which recently received a tone-down because it was too strong), and they perform a crucial defensive function as well for CWs particularly. (There's also a double effect at play here: Severe Reaction is an important defensive feat for CWs, and it is made absolutely useless, in fact counterproductive, by these changes as they stand right now, so there's a double loss on top of losing overall control ability.)
- Courage Breaker needs to be treated as a CC effect for this system. Not necessarily the damage debuff, but the slow effect.
(Of course, there's also a counterpoint that some CC effects will be better in PVP in some cases because Tenacity won't reduce their base duration when players don't have any immunity stacks yet, but overall that mainly applies to certain abilities with longer cooldowns.)
Another point to all of this is that certain classes can currently really only be fought and effectively brought down by massive application of CC combined with high burst damage, and in other cases, some classes are already too resistant to CC (or damage in general). Those classes also happen to have the ability to inflict very large amounts of damage (which in a couple of cases is decidedly contrary to their intended class role).
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