Im a 16k SW, we're already probably the lowest dps now or soon to be once they've finished with TR, and now you want to make us even weaker? I paid money for my bondings and got them directly from the Auction House. This is a massive insult to the player base. I've ran Tomb Of the Nine Gods on my warlock, and its damn painful, I mean I know you've said that TRs are suppose to be best single target damage in the game, but then what the hell are SWs suppose to be? We dont have alot of AoE, and are out-done by the majority of all DPS classes, single target we don't do to bad but GWFs etc can still come hundreds of millions above, and now with the bonding nurf we're going to be even more exceptionally screwed..
Weaker and weaker and weaker. I honestly don't even know what to say anymore. I'd like to say 'do you even play your own game', but I know you do, so I know that excuse is out. This bondings idea confuses me to no end, im 16k and find the newest hard to run, this is going to ruin the game for loads of people, not to mention stab people in the back for all the work they put into getting their bondings to rank 12.
Personally I've always thought SW's should be the top DPS in game, they don't seem to have any innate defense. It just seems to me that the less tanky you are the more damage you should be able to do in return.
So for what it's worth, I hope you guys get the rework you seem to need.
We've been waiting now since they destroyed warlocks in Mod10. Well not destroyed but as you said, our defence is poor at best, I mean atleast TRs can go invisible, Sws in order to even do comprehensible damage have to put their PoP under the boss/mobs, we have to be right there in the thick of it and we have nothing to defend ourselves. Our damage is subpar, about in-line with TRs currently, yet they are getting buffed slowly and nothing for warlocks. I've been on preview. There is no way in hell anyone is going to want a warlock in a Tomb Of the Nine Gods after the bonding nurf.
I mean seriously who would you chose, an amazing class which due to bonding nurf can still dish out good damage, or a class which dealt subpar damage before the nurf, and is now entirely useless in the dungeon.
This whole thing is absolutely stupid, thats the best way I can describe it. I agree that bondings are over-powered COMPARED to other options, but without them? They were the only reason most content was runable was certain classes. Now they're going to ruin their own game for thousands of players.
I normally don't bother posting on any of the forums, but this is a topic that concerns me. If the major concern for the upcoming changes are because "bondings are the only runestone that end game players use," why nerf them? Why not just buff the other runestones instead to make them viable options for players. I understand that the other runestones are getting a buff in the stats that they provide, but nerfing bondings as well is not the correct answer to "fix" the issue. A lot of the end game content relies on the bondings (with their current mechanics), so nerfing them is just going to make the end game content increasingly difficult. I suggest that the bonding mechanics be left alone, values and all, and that the other runestones just become stronger so as to not cause future problems with players conducting dungeon runs. This change would encourage, if not support, others to ONLY look for 15k+ iLvL players, thus destroying the fun aspect of the game to individuals that are not maxed/near maxed.
I understand that ultimately the decision is up to the developers, but the community should have a voice that matters as well. Since the announcement of these changes, I have PERSONALLY seen 10+ major spenders ($5000+) declare that they are leaving the game. There are also many others that have stated that they are waiting to see if the changes are actually going to happen. Those individuals have also stated that if the previously mentioned changes did happen, they were going to leave the game as well. I will continue playing due to stubborness, but I hope that Arc doesn't lose too many of its valued players because of having no willingness to listen to the feedback of their players (customer base).
@tripsofthrymr The thing is, you're fixing a "problem" that doesn't exist. If you disable power share affecting companions, bondings won't be nearly as powerful as they are now, as they're the medium (but NOT the root cause) for the 250k power in TNG and other stuff. It's just NOT okay to do that. LM set got nerfed into the ground because it just added damage. People are using bondings as the BASE of their damage. That's the difference. On my friend list, that's pretty massive, mind you, about 2/3 of the people left. I expect more. All are big spenders (total probably over $15k).
I think that literally everyone with at least a bit of sentient thought can realize that the problem lies with power share, and not bondings. Seriously, do as others suggested. If you don't want them to be more powerful, just don't allow R14 upgrades. Or allow them but the percentage added stays constant. I know your devs can do it, they made a bloody game.
I keep coming back to this, I have lost confidence that money spent on this game won't be nullified in the future. I refuse to pay money to climb up the hill only to be knocked back down and asked to pay again. I will give the developers the benefit of the doubt that it is just incidental and they aren't doing it solely to make money. But I will not throw good money after bad.
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ambisinisterrMember, Neverwinter ModeratorPosts: 10,462Community Moderator
If the major concern for the upcoming changes are because "bondings are the only runestone that end game players use," why nerf them? Why not just buff the other runestones instead to make them viable options for players.
This was discussed in the live stream with Robert Gutschera ( @rgutscheradev ).
Buffing sounds better than nerfing but it creates a whole lot of other problems. Watch his response from 6:10-7:54
There's a term for the constant increase in power in video games as well: Power Creep. If you have ever played MMO's then you have experienced it to some extent. Here's a great video Extra Credits did on it years ago that sums up why it is to be avoided whenever possible.
> @ambisinisterr said: > If the major concern for the upcoming changes are because "bondings are the only runestone that end game players use," why nerf them? Why not just buff the other runestones instead to make them viable options for players. > > This was discussed in the live stream with Robert Gutschera ( @rgutscheradev ). > > Buffing sounds better than nerfing but it creates a whole lot of other problems. > Watch his response from 6:10-7:54 > > There's a term for the constant increase in power in video games as well: Power Creep. If you have ever played MMO's then you have experienced it to some extent. Here's a great video Extra Credits did on it years ago that sums up why it is to be avoided whenever possible.
I'm no video game dev, but the only thing people want in games is progress. You're unfortunately mistakenly calling it "power creep", and using it as a reason to nerf something. This all can be avoided by just removing power share's effect on companions. Increasing your power level is the ONLY thing to do in an MMORPG that resembles progress. This is just taking that same progress and throwing it in the wind, just like the money and time people invested. This is just utter disrespect for all your customers. People would simply get weaker in group runs because they wouldn't get as much power from power share, but could keep their builds intact - with no need to rebalance their stats. EVERYONE would be content with that. And 99% of people here ARE NOT content with the massive bonding nerf. To have to spend literally millions over and over and over again, to not even get close to the level they're at right now is just spitting in people's faces.
And with that, just buff augments so it gives some different bonuses that scale well throughout the late game and that's it. Eg, for every 10k stats on comp, you get 10% bonus stats or something like that. It would scale well throughout late game and in the future.
Mind you, Yahtzee described it perfectly. What we want in video games is some payoff. The increases in DPS at high ranks are already extremely marginal and unnoticeable, and you're just blurring the line even further. There is NO game in which this is a good idea. When you upgrade, you want to feel a distinct increase. What you do NOT want is to take all the AD and Zen and dollars spent on the game and just set them on fire.
EDIT: After watching the power creep video, I have to say, this change is STILL COMPLETE AND TOTAL BULL. The power creep wouldn't be there (it isn't there, really, and the nerf changes nothing about it) if the power share buffs were replaced with percentage based buffs. There is literally NOTHING wrong with Bondings. Keep in mind that the guy who posted a pic here could STILL reach 230k power without ANY issues. That doesn't resolve the problem AT ALL. I don't want to be rude, but damn it to hell, your devs need to re-consider the hell they're doing atm. This will leave some lasting damage on the game. Power creep will only be further increased here because people will require even higher geared players now to do anything so mid-tier players won't be able to do JACK <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>. People still to this day play old dungeons. They're easier, and they should be because we are very much past that level, and that's the reward you get for grinding your equipment out. If it's required, I'll post an essay on the forums on why this shouldn't happen.
EDIT #2: That same video also works against you. People love their collections. They love their old stuff they grinded for. The nerf just takes what they grinded for away. So what you've done will in turn bite you in the rear. Because not only do people lose what you're trying to get, but they also lose everything they have invested into the game. Please, reconsider this. This is just not good for the game we all love. We're all saying this not because we want to just simply have stuff but because we love the game as it is and this would turn it into a much more bitter experience than before. If old dungeons are too easy, make Master or Elite or some new version of it that's just ridiculously hard. But a bonding nerf? That changes nothing but people's opinion on the game, and it will not change for the better.
"Now's a good time to quit, eh?"
Post edited by gromovnipljesak#8234 on
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jumpingmorksMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 876Arc User
edited September 2017
Creep is real. Whether we like it or not it causes us just as many problems as the Devs, the problems are just different.
Look we get it; rebalance is just a pretence for making revenue really we do but some practices are getting reeeeeeeally stale and old like with the preordering of broken games shipped on day 1.
Its just really bad practice. Some things you just don't do unless you want to destroy your IP.
The fiasco with the key gate did a number on your earnings now didn't it and now this? If I didn't know better it's like you have a death wish.
Constant pushing out of content w/o fixing an ever growing list of bugs you people remind me of the now defunct facebook game marvel avengers alliance. I quit 2 years prior of its shutdown because I started noticing some very bad practices on the dev's end while die hard fans refused to believe that it would close one day.
The endless list of unfixed bugs that offset players' progress in hopes of getting them to spend cash to offset the time lost. (Yes people know) You are dealing with the world here don't think you can outsmart the masses.
If people don't pay to play your game they simply won't no matter what you do. But those who do pay will definitely stop patronising your store if you keep this up.
If the major concern for the upcoming changes are because "bondings are the only runestone that end game players use," why nerf them? Why not just buff the other runestones instead to make them viable options for players.
This was discussed in the live stream with Robert Gutschera ( @rgutscheradev ).
Buffing sounds better than nerfing but it creates a whole lot of other problems. Watch his response from 6:10-7:54
There's a term for the constant increase in power in video games as well: Power Creep. If you have ever played MMO's then you have experienced it to some extent. Here's a great video Extra Credits did on it years ago that sums up why it is to be avoided whenever possible.
Ok serious questions here : So the solution to power creep is to give us rank 14 with 1000 power from rank 12 with 700 power?
Nerf the bondings which now give at best 19-21k extra power and about 30k-33k stat points but not try to fix the powershare not to go through the bonding and can potentially give from 60k to 210k power?
Introduce artifacts that make bosses take 50% more damage?
Introduce companions that give extra damage vs bosses?
Rank 13 enchantments with increased weapon damage %
and many more...
I really would like (and I think many others ) and answer to those questions.
I'm playing since the beginning, since alpha version, I've seen 12 modules and 100s of changes, and so have many others. The question people ask is WHY. If there is a legitimate reason other than "the devs know" we would like to hear it and understand.
Yes it did. Lostmauth. It wasn't as expensive, but it was the same situation. It was ridiculously overpowered compared to the other options. They waited far too long to nerf it, too. In that case, they offered an exchange store. If they make a significant enough change so that the meta shifts from "always bonding" to "it depends," an exchange store would be a good idea in this case, too.
They did reduce the lost set bonus damage and then... they gave it to lightning enchantment. I have the feeling its the same situation now because if we run the numbers we will see that a player after (and if) he will rank the enchantments again to r14 and new weapon to r13, the player will be damage wise, near to where he is now.
Again I believe we deserve a clarification from the source as to WHY and not just what is happening.
Here's a post from reddit that addresses most of the issues in the (hopefully not) upcoming update. I could name a few more but this is enough. https://www.reddit.com/r/Neverwinter/comments/6xkykv/problems_that_will_arise_with_the_m12b/ This gets the gist of it - why the bonding nerf won't do anything to fix the power creep.
They did reduce the lost set bonus damage and then... they gave it to lightning enchantment. I have the feeling its the same situation now because if we run the numbers we will see that a player after (and if) he will rank the enchantments again to r14 and new weapon to r13, the player will be damage wise, near to where he is now.
Again I believe we deserve a clarification from the source as to WHY and not just what is happening.
Thank you
The more we see the big picture the less it looks like a genuine design decision. With the 50% uptime ot looked like they have a plan to balance burst and uptime, force people into decisions with their stats, but now it really seems they just reshuffle sources of power to something we don't have yet,
They did reduce the lost set bonus damage and then... they gave it to lightning enchantment. I have the feeling its the same situation now because if we run the numbers we will see that a player after (and if) he will rank the enchantments again to r14 and new weapon to r13, the player will be damage wise, near to where he is now.
Again I believe we deserve a clarification from the source as to WHY and not just what is happening.
Thank you
"damage wise" yeah probably but there is not only dps in the game, i know that i'll need to make a LOTs of change for my gf to get back to DR cap, but still, after going to preview it don't even work like described right now, it actually proc for 30 sec and reproc after 20 sec or so ... i'll wait for next update see if they change something again ...
It doesn't seem like anything really. This won't change issues at all - in fact, it will INCREASE the power creep. You'll still be able to reach 250k power, and now with higher tier, scaling weapon enchants, everything will be even more overpowered. And *ALL* of that can be fixed by making DC and pally power share become a percentage buff.
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ambisinisterrMember, Neverwinter ModeratorPosts: 10,462Community Moderator
Increasing your power level is the ONLY thing to do in an MMORPG that resembles progress. This is just taking that same progress and throwing it in the wind, just like the money and time people invested. This is just utter disrespect for all your customers.
EDIT #2: That same video also works against you. People love their collections. They love their old stuff they grinded for.
No. It is the ONLY thing to do to run the game into the ground. Power Creep is one of the worst things that can happen to an MMO.
Power Creep causes that feeling you get when you finish getting BiS and then a new expansion comes out which destroys all of your previous progress. It causes in that feeling you get when you log in after a period of time without playing and see how crummy all of your stuff is rather than how much stuff you can do.
When things are out of balance the developers of any MMO will nerf and buff because both of those points above will drive players to walk away and make them stay away more than the effect of changing the items in question. In this case they have been avoiding nerfing bonding runestones for a long time due to the investment people have put into them but there is no avoiding just how overpowered they are. As other people have pointed out, they were warned when they were implemented they were too good and ignored that feedback so this really has been, as somebody put it, a ticking time bomb.
As for the video "discrediting me:" the video explained what happens when blatantly overpowered cards are added to a CCG. It did not discuss how to resolve an existing imbalance and certainly did not advocate to ignore overpowered items as you are twisting it to mean. They very specifically warned not to avoid power creep to begin with but the example of how content is belittled over time they also stated that it is not good to appease players by simply power all the time. They weren't talking about balance changes but it applies all the same. Sometimes the bat swings down.
The only reason the bonding runestones have lasted as long as they have is because of the investments people have in them. However investments are not a permanent excuse to ignore a problem. This decision wasn't made not knowing that people would be upset and that some people would leave because their collections were going to be hurt.
Now there may be room for compromise depending on the response but nerfs will happen (in general, not this change specifically) even if that means players will leave. It's a fact of life in when you play an MMO. It's a decision developers of MMO's make knowing it has a very negative short term impact with the expectation of making the game better in the long term.
Power creep is an excuse - it's smoke and mirrors.
If we say that a player's stats (excluding campaign boons & mount bonus procs) with Titansteel gear, 4 mythic artifacts, maxed enchantments & bondings and 1 legendary companion = roughly 86k total points, a player with all r14 stones & bondings proccing at 195% +1 legendary companion will have (OMG) 86k total stat points.
When you add the extra power from r14 weapon enchantments we are even more powerful than before.
Plus the recent addition of the 5 Legendary companion boost, giving us another 16% from companions.
Would I also be right in thinking that in mod 13 we should expect new armor & weapons with more stats? Perhaps a new tier to artifacts and new boons? Ooh I know - Mythic Artifact Gear - yes, that has to be on the books.
In other words, you guys are not worried about the stats - you can't be, because you keep increasing them! For anyone that doesn't believe this just look at the total increase in stats between mod 9 and these changes.
This is about creating extra things for people to spend money on.
I have no objection to the company making a healthy profit, but please don't give us a cabbage and tell us it's a steak. There are too many intelligent people playing this game for that to work.
Treating us like we are stupid will only destroy our trust in your company.
Please Do Not Feed The Trolls
Xael De Armadeon: DC
Xane De Armadeon: CW
Zen De Armadeon: OP
Zohar De Armadeon: TR
Chrion De Armadeon: SW
Gosti Big Belly: GWF
Barney McRustbucket: GF
Lt. Thackeray: HR
Lucius De Armadeon: BD
Powercreep as an excuse doesn't work here. once we get everything to 14 we're going to be right back where we are now. sooooo.. how is that even addressing power creep? Apparently where we are now is pretty good. we just can't have it even though it's bought and paid for.
if it were addressing it then they wouldn't be immediately giving us the tools to work back to where we were for many millions of ad. the new content has also been built with this in mind. it's already freaking hard. until we are all back where we are no we don't have a lot of chance of completion. it also makes it hard just to do things in dailies. if they weren't building around that it would be incredibly easy for everyone no?
they are just spin doctoring it to be "power creep" when really it's "power mercenarism". there are ways to do this (increase levels) with out taking away progress and without giving ridiculous amounts of stats. they just took the lazy way out thinking we'd all be too stupid to notice. it's insulting.
really the problem is the power share. not the bondings. what with all of the continual dailies that never seem to end a good portion of us end up playing solo more than in a group anyway. without the stats it's almost impossible. amd most of us have spent so much time on out builds. tweaking and getting it right.. we really don't want to have to rebalance all of our gear. we don't want to do that again.
this needs to just not happen. can we have a vote? lol.
This mod is pure money grabing. Not that rest of them are not, but this time Cryptic devs dont even bother to hide it.
In short - if you are long term customer, possibly having Bondings Rank 12 already, you gona wake up after 12B goes live with bondings of present rank 9s. Of course if you BIS or near it thats gona hurt you even more cos possibly you have already correctly distributed stats on you toon with a use of a bondings.
But dear BIS brothers - have no fear - there is hope - if you upgrade your bondidngs to new rank 14, and all enchatns on your pet, and all enchants on your Character - ALL of them - then you should reagain what you lost with this bonding nerf.
Now, some of you think - easy, got tons of AD and refinment, I can do it.... well, you dont.
Best part is - you wont upgrade any enchant to rank 14 or weapon/armor enchant to rank 13. Ultimate marks of potency needed you gona buy from Wondrous Bazaar for 150k AD each, but... greater refining stones..... "can be found rerely on epic dungeon bosses....IN CHULT"
So LOL - your BIS toon is going to be nerfed significantly to the level, where completing epic dungeon boss in Chult - witch is TONG would be hard, and I mean really hard, but other wise you wont regain what you just lost.
So dear Devs - I know that you dont care about us, just for your profits. I know that you hate long playing players as they dont need to buy ZEN for real money. I know that it is beyond you skills to repair bugs, real bugs ruining this game balance and overall META. I can live with that - yes I can, like I could for last few years.
Toned Down - Ambisinisterr
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ambisinisterrMember, Neverwinter ModeratorPosts: 10,462Community Moderator
Power Creep is more than simply not upping power. It's about having a level playing field.
The Bonding Runestones are overpowered and limit the choices not only for the players but the developers. If something is too powerful individually it can be nerfed and that power redistributed to other items to allow for more diverse builds without drastically increasing the power creep.
Power Creep will happen over time but it has to be reigned in occasionally.
Power Creep is more than simply not upping power. It's about having a level playing field.
The Bonding Runestones are overpowered and limit the choices not only for the players but the developers. If something is too powerful individually it can be nerfed and that power redistributed to other items to allow for more diverse builds without drastically increasing the power creep.
Power Creep will happen over time but it has to be reigned in occasionally.
Well that's what they've done - they have redistributed the stats so we get the same - however, the price to the player is the cost of levelling up all of their enchantments (15 million AD by my estimate).
So we are expected to spend 15 million AD per character so they can 'redistribute' our stats?
Please Do Not Feed The Trolls
Xael De Armadeon: DC
Xane De Armadeon: CW
Zen De Armadeon: OP
Zohar De Armadeon: TR
Chrion De Armadeon: SW
Gosti Big Belly: GWF
Barney McRustbucket: GF
Lt. Thackeray: HR
Lucius De Armadeon: BD
Member of Casual Dailies - XBox
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santralafaxMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 2,896Arc User
@ambisinisterr You're contradicting yourself. You're saying that to avoid feeling that our gear is <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>, the best way to do so is to make our gear feel like <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>? The Augments are so far behind that EVERYONE has gotten over that (other than developers apparently) and now you're just adding insult to injury. It's trying to fix something that works. Devs are just trailing the old sack full of horse shoes for no other reason than "versatility" even tho no one asked for it.
If you REALLY want to nerf them, nerf the R12 by 10% each, and then gain them back by upgrading to R14 (+5% per rank), and that's it. But IDEALLY, return them to what they were and remove power share from companions. Dungeons will be a LOT harder, power creep will almost be non-existent and bondings will become a way of progression just like weapon enchants are - mandatory to keep up with others. Bondings just work well, and that's what we want to keep.
As @armadeonx said, the devs are treating us, the players like we're idiots. Having a "level playing field" would delete EVERY sense of progression, which EVERY MMORPG has. We do tasks to increase our NUMBERS, so our NUMBERS become higher than everyone else's NUMBERS until everyone can stand there in respect and awe. That's generally what MMORPGs are doing. Making a 16k not that much stronger than a 13k is just blatantly stupid and if there's no progression, there's nothing players can strive for and therefore they DEFINITELY won't be bothering to play after content gets a bit too hard. You need that progression feel, especially with the new refinement that will require hard content (that would feel even harder with current bondings but no power share on comps, so you get that *ehhh* "power creep" removed). I know you're trying to justify a stupid decision of the devs, and I know your job is hard, but damn it to hell, this is bloody madness.
Seriously, I'll make a video if that's what's required, to explain why power share removal on comps is better than bonding nerf. I'll go down on all 4 if that's what required for devs to watch it.
Also, @armadeonx it's actually about 6.5m ideally for unparalleled, and about 37.5m every other enchant and rune from R12 to R14. So no, it's not 15m.
I have 23 rank 12's on my main and comp + 3 x rank 12 bondings. To take these up to 14 I will need 52 coalwards plus SMOP + UMOP + about 9 months refinement. About 60,000 ZEN to do this lot to get back to where I am now, this is nothing more than a cash grab pure and simple. I thought the game was about progression, not moving backwards.
Power Creep is more than simply not upping power. It's about having a level playing field.
The Bonding Runestones are overpowered and limit the choices not only for the players but the developers. If something is too powerful individually it can be nerfed and that power redistributed to other items to allow for more diverse builds without drastically increasing the power creep.
Power Creep will happen over time but it has to be reigned in occasionally.
Because there might be something we don't see, can you please explain the following:
a. I've seen a lot of mentions that bondings are far better than others and there is some truth to that but please explain if possible why don't we bring the others to par? For example Profane can give 840 crit and 95% share stats. Arcane can give 840 recovery and 95% share stats and so on for all the ruins With that move we can make EVERY ruin useful and make it a valid choice for builds OTHER than bonding. There is no power creep that way as the stats that are shared remain the same.
b. Why do we call the bonding that gives at best 30k stats total compared to other buffs that gives quadruple and more of that. If the problem is indeed the power creep the solution of nerfing the bondings doesn't really apply. (If need be I can provide screens and act logs)
c. About augments VS companions. Powershare again is the MAIN factor that forbids people from using augment. Even if the augment was to give 30% more stat points than normal companions / bondings combo, since it cant receive the excessive amount of powershare it will always be the very last option. (if it was ever to be an option)
As you see the problem keeps coming back to the same point but I really would like to hear what you and the devs think.
Also I asked you on my other post and I was hoping for a answer or honest conversation so I will quote it here
Ok serious questions here : So the solution to power creep is to give us rank 14 with 1000 power from rank 12 with 700 power?
Nerf the bondings which now give at best 19-21k extra power and about 30k-33k stat points but not try to fix the powershare not to go through the bonding and can potentially give from 60k to 210k power?
Introduce artifacts that make bosses take 50% more damage?
Introduce companions that give extra damage vs bosses?
Rank 13 enchantments with increased weapon damage %
and many more...
I really would like (and I think many others ) and answer to those questions.
And what is really sad I'd the new content won't be completable by the vast majority of the population. We we're already struggling with it
Which is why we only have 9 people on in our guild right now as opposed to the 30+ we usually have on all the time at weekends. Most of them have moved to other games now as they are completely sick of being treated worse that dirt by the developers. And I dont blame them, I'm guild leader and I'm now playing something else as well and if this current situation isnt properly resolved I wont be returning to Neverwinter.
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ambisinisterrMember, Neverwinter ModeratorPosts: 10,462Community Moderator
If the major concern for the upcoming changes are because "bondings are the only runestone that end game players use," why nerf them? Why not just buff the other runestones instead to make them viable options for players.
This was discussed in the live stream with Robert Gutschera ( @rgutscheradev ).
Buffing sounds better than nerfing but it creates a whole lot of other problems. Watch his response from 6:10-7:54
There's a term for the constant increase in power in video games as well: Power Creep. If you have ever played MMO's then you have experienced it to some extent. Here's a great video Extra Credits did on it years ago that sums up why it is to be avoided whenever possible.
b. Why do we call the bonding that gives at best 30k stats total compared to other buffs that gives quadruple and more of that. If the problem is indeed the power creep the solution of nerfing the bondings doesn't really apply. (If need be I can provide screens and act logs)
I am not understanding your wording. Are you asking why Bonding Runestones are an issue but other bonuses that give more are not? If that's the case this would be the same answer that Robert gave in the video. Bonding runestones had a spike that needed to be toned down to bring it in line with the other runestones. Power Creep is the answer why not to buff everything else, not the reason why the nerf is taking place.
c. About augments VS companions. Powershare again is the MAIN factor that forbids people from using augment. Even if the augment was to give 30% more stat points than normal companions / bondings combo, since it cant receive the excessive amount of powershare it will always be the very last option. (if it was ever to be an option)
This is tied very much with the second question. The nerf is meant to bring them more in line with the other options but it was specifically stated that they expect them to be slightly better than the other options even after the change.
Diminishing returns on stats is a solution to power creep. Nerfing stuff is a solution to power creep. But you don't get to say solution to power creep and at the same time add r14 enchants that will give something like 8k stats (with a total cost of something like 50mil AD). Especially that the bonding power creep doesn't come from their basic pet->owner transfer. But buffed pet.
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ambisinisterrMember, Neverwinter ModeratorPosts: 10,462Community Moderator
edited September 2017
Ok, I'll put it in it's own post so I can stop repeating this.
There are two different questions:
Why not buff the other runestones?
The reason why you don't buff every other RUNESTONE to be viable is because that is power creep. You don't buff every comparable item to avoid nerfing one item.
The goal as they have explained it is to remove the "absolutely must use" label on Bonding Runestones. They will still be the better but they will be less of a absolutely must use.
If you want to avoid power creep then why buff everything else?
The argument that they are implementing Power Creep by upping all the other enchantments is a separate issue with separate reasoning:
1. Power will be upped periodically. 2. The Power is not being signnificantly upped (and thus the game will remain relatively the same) because the power is being redistributed to other items.
This isn't an issue that Bonding Runestones are too powerful making content too easy. This is the problem that bonding runestones are too powerful COMPARED to the items they are able to be compared with. Until this is addressed it hinders the options for players AND hinders options for the developers when designing content.
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I mean seriously who would you chose, an amazing class which due to bonding nurf can still dish out good damage, or a class which dealt subpar damage before the nurf, and is now entirely useless in the dungeon.
This whole thing is absolutely stupid, thats the best way I can describe it. I agree that bondings are over-powered COMPARED to other options, but without them? They were the only reason most content was runable was certain classes. Now they're going to ruin their own game for thousands of players.
I understand that ultimately the decision is up to the developers, but the community should have a voice that matters as well. Since the announcement of these changes, I have PERSONALLY seen 10+ major spenders ($5000+) declare that they are leaving the game. There are also many others that have stated that they are waiting to see if the changes are actually going to happen. Those individuals have also stated that if the previously mentioned changes did happen, they were going to leave the game as well. I will continue playing due to stubborness, but I hope that Arc doesn't lose too many of its valued players because of having no willingness to listen to the feedback of their players (customer base).
Rant complete.
Guild Leader
<The Bar>
The thing is, you're fixing a "problem" that doesn't exist. If you disable power share affecting companions, bondings won't be nearly as powerful as they are now, as they're the medium (but NOT the root cause) for the 250k power in TNG and other stuff.
It's just NOT okay to do that. LM set got nerfed into the ground because it just added damage. People are using bondings as the BASE of their damage. That's the difference. On my friend list, that's pretty massive, mind you, about 2/3 of the people left. I expect more. All are big spenders (total probably over $15k).
I think that literally everyone with at least a bit of sentient thought can realize that the problem lies with power share, and not bondings. Seriously, do as others suggested. If you don't want them to be more powerful, just don't allow R14 upgrades. Or allow them but the percentage added stays constant. I know your devs can do it, they made a bloody game.
Buffing sounds better than nerfing but it creates a whole lot of other problems.
Watch his response from 6:10-7:54
There's a term for the constant increase in power in video games as well: Power Creep. If you have ever played MMO's then you have experienced it to some extent. Here's a great video Extra Credits did on it years ago that sums up why it is to be avoided whenever possible.
> If the major concern for the upcoming changes are because "bondings are the only runestone that end game players use," why nerf them? Why not just buff the other runestones instead to make them viable options for players.
>
> This was discussed in the live stream with Robert Gutschera ( @rgutscheradev ).
>
> Buffing sounds better than nerfing but it creates a whole lot of other problems.
> Watch his response from 6:10-7:54
>
> There's a term for the constant increase in power in video games as well: Power Creep. If you have ever played MMO's then you have experienced it to some extent. Here's a great video Extra Credits did on it years ago that sums up why it is to be avoided whenever possible.
I'm no video game dev, but the only thing people want in games is progress. You're unfortunately mistakenly calling it "power creep", and using it as a reason to nerf something. This all can be avoided by just removing power share's effect on companions.
Increasing your power level is the ONLY thing to do in an MMORPG that resembles progress. This is just taking that same progress and throwing it in the wind, just like the money and time people invested. This is just utter disrespect for all your customers.
People would simply get weaker in group runs because they wouldn't get as much power from power share, but could keep their builds intact - with no need to rebalance their stats. EVERYONE would be content with that. And 99% of people here ARE NOT content with the massive bonding nerf. To have to spend literally millions over and over and over again, to not even get close to the level they're at right now is just spitting in people's faces.
And with that, just buff augments so it gives some different bonuses that scale well throughout the late game and that's it. Eg, for every 10k stats on comp, you get 10% bonus stats or something like that. It would scale well throughout late game and in the future.
Mind you, Yahtzee described it perfectly. What we want in video games is some payoff. The increases in DPS at high ranks are already extremely marginal and unnoticeable, and you're just blurring the line even further. There is NO game in which this is a good idea. When you upgrade, you want to feel a distinct increase. What you do NOT want is to take all the AD and Zen and dollars spent on the game and just set them on fire.
EDIT: After watching the power creep video, I have to say, this change is STILL COMPLETE AND TOTAL BULL. The power creep wouldn't be there (it isn't there, really, and the nerf changes nothing about it) if the power share buffs were replaced with percentage based buffs. There is literally NOTHING wrong with Bondings. Keep in mind that the guy who posted a pic here could STILL reach 230k power without ANY issues. That doesn't resolve the problem AT ALL.
I don't want to be rude, but damn it to hell, your devs need to re-consider the hell they're doing atm. This will leave some lasting damage on the game. Power creep will only be further increased here because people will require even higher geared players now to do anything so mid-tier players won't be able to do JACK <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>. People still to this day play old dungeons. They're easier, and they should be because we are very much past that level, and that's the reward you get for grinding your equipment out. If it's required, I'll post an essay on the forums on why this shouldn't happen.
EDIT #2: That same video also works against you. People love their collections. They love their old stuff they grinded for. The nerf just takes what they grinded for away. So what you've done will in turn bite you in the rear. Because not only do people lose what you're trying to get, but they also lose everything they have invested into the game.
Please, reconsider this. This is just not good for the game we all love. We're all saying this not because we want to just simply have stuff but because we love the game as it is and this would turn it into a much more bitter experience than before. If old dungeons are too easy, make Master or Elite or some new version of it that's just ridiculously hard. But a bonding nerf? That changes nothing but people's opinion on the game, and it will not change for the better.
"Now's a good time to quit, eh?"
Its just really bad practice. Some things you just don't do unless you want to destroy your IP.
The fiasco with the key gate did a number on your earnings now didn't it and now this? If I didn't know better it's like you have a death wish.
Constant pushing out of content w/o fixing an ever growing list of bugs you people remind me of the now defunct facebook game marvel avengers alliance. I quit 2 years prior of its shutdown because I started noticing some very bad practices on the dev's end while die hard fans refused to believe that it would close one day.
The endless list of unfixed bugs that offset players' progress in hopes of getting them to spend cash to offset the time lost. (Yes people know) You are dealing with the world here don't think you can outsmart the masses.
If people don't pay to play your game they simply won't no matter what you do. But those who do pay will definitely stop patronising your store if you keep this up.
So the solution to power creep is to give us rank 14 with 1000 power from rank 12 with 700 power?
Nerf the bondings which now give at best 19-21k extra power and about 30k-33k stat points but not try to fix the powershare not to go through the bonding and can potentially give from 60k to 210k power?
Introduce artifacts that make bosses take 50% more damage?
Introduce companions that give extra damage vs bosses?
Rank 13 enchantments with increased weapon damage %
and many more...
I really would like (and I think many others ) and answer to those questions.
I'm playing since the beginning, since alpha version, I've seen 12 modules and 100s of changes, and so have many others. The question people ask is WHY. If there is a legitimate reason other than "the devs know" we would like to hear it and understand.
And if I may a comment. They did reduce the lost set bonus damage and then... they gave it to lightning enchantment.
I have the feeling its the same situation now because if we run the numbers we will see that a player after (and if) he will rank the enchantments again to r14 and new weapon to r13, the player will be damage wise, near to where he is now.
Again I believe we deserve a clarification from the source as to WHY and not just what is happening.
Thank you
Corrected Second Quote - Ambisinisterr
This gets the gist of it - why the bonding nerf won't do anything to fix the power creep.
[PS4] Alliance - House Stargaryen
Power Creep causes that feeling you get when you finish getting BiS and then a new expansion comes out which destroys all of your previous progress. It causes in that feeling you get when you log in after a period of time without playing and see how crummy all of your stuff is rather than how much stuff you can do.
When things are out of balance the developers of any MMO will nerf and buff because both of those points above will drive players to walk away and make them stay away more than the effect of changing the items in question. In this case they have been avoiding nerfing bonding runestones for a long time due to the investment people have put into them but there is no avoiding just how overpowered they are. As other people have pointed out, they were warned when they were implemented they were too good and ignored that feedback so this really has been, as somebody put it, a ticking time bomb.
As for the video "discrediting me:" the video explained what happens when blatantly overpowered cards are added to a CCG. It did not discuss how to resolve an existing imbalance and certainly did not advocate to ignore overpowered items as you are twisting it to mean.
They very specifically warned not to avoid power creep to begin with but the example of how content is belittled over time they also stated that it is not good to appease players by simply power all the time. They weren't talking about balance changes but it applies all the same. Sometimes the bat swings down.
The only reason the bonding runestones have lasted as long as they have is because of the investments people have in them. However investments are not a permanent excuse to ignore a problem. This decision wasn't made not knowing that people would be upset and that some people would leave because their collections were going to be hurt.
Now there may be room for compromise depending on the response but nerfs will happen (in general, not this change specifically) even if that means players will leave. It's a fact of life in when you play an MMO. It's a decision developers of MMO's make knowing it has a very negative short term impact with the expectation of making the game better in the long term.
If we say that a player's stats (excluding campaign boons & mount bonus procs) with Titansteel gear, 4 mythic artifacts, maxed enchantments & bondings and 1 legendary companion = roughly 86k total points, a player with all r14 stones & bondings proccing at 195% +1 legendary companion will have (OMG) 86k total stat points.
When you add the extra power from r14 weapon enchantments we are even more powerful than before.
Plus the recent addition of the 5 Legendary companion boost, giving us another 16% from companions.
Would I also be right in thinking that in mod 13 we should expect new armor & weapons with more stats? Perhaps a new tier to artifacts and new boons? Ooh I know - Mythic Artifact Gear - yes, that has to be on the books.
In other words, you guys are not worried about the stats - you can't be, because you keep increasing them! For anyone that doesn't believe this just look at the total increase in stats between mod 9 and these changes.
This is about creating extra things for people to spend money on.
I have no objection to the company making a healthy profit, but please don't give us a cabbage and tell us it's a steak. There are too many intelligent people playing this game for that to work.
Treating us like we are stupid will only destroy our trust in your company.
Xael De Armadeon: DC
Xane De Armadeon: CW
Zen De Armadeon: OP
Zohar De Armadeon: TR
Chrion De Armadeon: SW
Gosti Big Belly: GWF
Barney McRustbucket: GF
Lt. Thackeray: HR
Lucius De Armadeon: BD
Member of Casual Dailies - XBox
Powercreep as an excuse doesn't work here. once we get everything to 14 we're going to be right back where we are now. sooooo.. how is that even addressing power creep? Apparently where we are now is pretty good. we just can't have it even though it's bought and paid for.
if it were addressing it then they wouldn't be immediately giving us the tools to work back to where we were for many millions of ad. the new content has also been built with this in mind. it's already freaking hard. until we are all back where we are no we don't have a lot of chance of completion. it also makes it hard just to do things in dailies. if they weren't building around that it would be incredibly easy for everyone no?
they are just spin doctoring it to be "power creep" when really it's "power mercenarism". there are ways to do this (increase levels) with out taking away progress and without giving ridiculous amounts of stats. they just took the lazy way out thinking we'd all be too stupid to notice. it's insulting.
really the problem is the power share. not the bondings. what with all of the continual dailies that never seem to end a good portion of us end up playing solo more than in a group anyway. without the stats it's almost impossible. amd most of us have spent so much time on out builds. tweaking and getting it right.. we really don't want to have to rebalance all of our gear. we don't want to do that again.
this needs to just not happen. can we have a vote? lol.
In short - if you are long term customer, possibly having Bondings Rank 12 already, you gona wake up after 12B goes live with bondings of present rank 9s. Of course if you BIS or near it thats gona hurt you even more cos possibly you have already correctly distributed stats on you toon with a use of a bondings.
But dear BIS brothers - have no fear - there is hope - if you upgrade your bondidngs to new rank 14, and all enchatns on your pet, and all enchants on your Character - ALL of them - then you should reagain what you lost with this bonding nerf.
Now, some of you think - easy, got tons of AD and refinment, I can do it.... well, you dont.
Best part is - you wont upgrade any enchant to rank 14 or weapon/armor enchant to rank 13. Ultimate marks of potency needed you gona buy from Wondrous Bazaar for 150k AD each, but... greater refining stones..... "can be found rerely on epic dungeon bosses....IN CHULT"
So LOL - your BIS toon is going to be nerfed significantly to the level, where completing epic dungeon boss in Chult - witch is TONG would be hard, and I mean really hard, but other wise you wont regain what you just lost.
So dear Devs - I know that you dont care about us, just for your profits. I know that you hate long playing players as they dont need to buy ZEN for real money. I know that it is beyond you skills to repair bugs, real bugs ruining this game balance and overall META. I can live with that - yes I can, like I could for last few years.
Toned Down - Ambisinisterr
The Bonding Runestones are overpowered and limit the choices not only for the players but the developers. If something is too powerful individually it can be nerfed and that power redistributed to other items to allow for more diverse builds without drastically increasing the power creep.
Power Creep will happen over time but it has to be reigned in occasionally.
So we are expected to spend 15 million AD per character so they can 'redistribute' our stats?
Xael De Armadeon: DC
Xane De Armadeon: CW
Zen De Armadeon: OP
Zohar De Armadeon: TR
Chrion De Armadeon: SW
Gosti Big Belly: GWF
Barney McRustbucket: GF
Lt. Thackeray: HR
Lucius De Armadeon: BD
Member of Casual Dailies - XBox
You're contradicting yourself. You're saying that to avoid feeling that our gear is <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>, the best way to do so is to make our gear feel like <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>? The Augments are so far behind that EVERYONE has gotten over that (other than developers apparently) and now you're just adding insult to injury. It's trying to fix something that works. Devs are just trailing the old sack full of horse shoes for no other reason than "versatility" even tho no one asked for it.
If you REALLY want to nerf them, nerf the R12 by 10% each, and then gain them back by upgrading to R14 (+5% per rank), and that's it. But IDEALLY, return them to what they were and remove power share from companions. Dungeons will be a LOT harder, power creep will almost be non-existent and bondings will become a way of progression just like weapon enchants are - mandatory to keep up with others. Bondings just work well, and that's what we want to keep.
As @armadeonx said, the devs are treating us, the players like we're idiots. Having a "level playing field" would delete EVERY sense of progression, which EVERY MMORPG has. We do tasks to increase our NUMBERS, so our NUMBERS become higher than everyone else's NUMBERS until everyone can stand there in respect and awe. That's generally what MMORPGs are doing. Making a 16k not that much stronger than a 13k is just blatantly stupid and if there's no progression, there's nothing players can strive for and therefore they DEFINITELY won't be bothering to play after content gets a bit too hard. You need that progression feel, especially with the new refinement that will require hard content (that would feel even harder with current bondings but no power share on comps, so you get that *ehhh* "power creep" removed). I know you're trying to justify a stupid decision of the devs, and I know your job is hard, but damn it to hell, this is bloody madness.
Seriously, I'll make a video if that's what's required, to explain why power share removal on comps is better than bonding nerf. I'll go down on all 4 if that's what required for devs to watch it.
Also, @armadeonx it's actually about 6.5m ideally for unparalleled, and about 37.5m every other enchant and rune from R12 to R14. So no, it's not 15m.
a. I've seen a lot of mentions that bondings are far better than others and there is some truth to that but please explain if possible why don't we bring the others to par? For example Profane can give 840 crit and 95% share stats. Arcane can give 840 recovery and 95% share stats and so on for all the ruins
With that move we can make EVERY ruin useful and make it a valid choice for builds OTHER than bonding. There is no power creep that way as the stats that are shared remain the same.
b. Why do we call the bonding that gives at best 30k stats total compared to other buffs that gives quadruple and more of that. If the problem is indeed the power creep the solution of nerfing the bondings doesn't really apply. (If need be I can provide screens and act logs)
c. About augments VS companions. Powershare again is the MAIN factor that forbids people from using augment. Even if the augment was to give 30% more stat points than normal companions / bondings combo, since it cant receive the excessive amount of powershare it will always be the very last option. (if it was ever to be an option)
As you see the problem keeps coming back to the same point but I really would like to hear what you and the devs think.
Also I asked you on my other post and I was hoping for a answer or honest conversation so I will quote it here
Nerfing stuff is a solution to power creep.
But you don't get to say solution to power creep and at the same time add r14 enchants that will give something like 8k stats (with a total cost of something like 50mil AD). Especially that the bonding power creep doesn't come from their basic pet->owner transfer. But buffed pet.
There are two different questions:
The reason why you don't buff every other RUNESTONE to be viable is because that is power creep.
You don't buff every comparable item to avoid nerfing one item.
The goal as they have explained it is to remove the "absolutely must use" label on Bonding Runestones. They will still be the better but they will be less of a absolutely must use.
The argument that they are implementing Power Creep by upping all the other enchantments is a separate issue with separate reasoning:
1. Power will be upped periodically.
2. The Power is not being signnificantly upped (and thus the game will remain relatively the same) because the power is being redistributed to other items.
This isn't an issue that Bonding Runestones are too powerful making content too easy. This is the problem that bonding runestones are too powerful COMPARED to the items they are able to be compared with. Until this is addressed it hinders the options for players AND hinders options for the developers when designing content.
Two answers to two different questions.