When will the game meta turn back to 2-3 dps +2 buffer instead of 1 dps+4 buffer? Buff rework maybe?

commanderdata002
commanderdata002 Member Posts: 312 Arc User
edited August 2017 in Player Feedback (PC)
In the old days we used 2-3 dps+heal+tank.
Currently it's not worth bringing more than one dps to the party. Recent top premade parties clearly shown that fast runs needed
1 dps+4 buffer. Most popular is probably: op+gf+2dc+dps.
If you try to bring another dps the run would slow down because a buffer bring more to the party than a second dps.

They even use these classes to make damage to help the main dps job.
Suprisingly these originally buffer/utility characters can get close in damage to the main dps. A conq-GF could even top that!

They tried to nerf the buffs-debuffs in mod9 with some success. They managed to eliminate 800-1000% effectiveness values.
Then a buff-debuff rework was in mod12 which wasn't really a big nerf. Just simplified the system.

As a dps the game is changing from caring rotation + postioning + dodging to a Pavlov's dog watching buffs like commander's strike. Not fun...

I think if 4 ppl supports one other it gives the people the wrong idea.
Imho runs with more dps characters are more fun.
In which other MMO buffers are this strong(even their dps) and only one dps character needed for a run?
As an officer its also tiresome to tell rookies that "oh you want to be in a party huh"? "Delete your dps character and level a support/buffer"...
stock and stone I can master, but there's a Wizard to manage here!
Post edited by commanderdata002 on
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Comments

  • commanderdata002
    commanderdata002 Member Posts: 312 Arc User
    edited August 2017
    You can have problem with the naming it is still a problem.
    Support/utility classes shouldn't do that much damage in the first place!
    Or dps classes should do more dmg in comparison to them to counter their buff-debuff effects.

    Not to mention GFs are just using the imba Griffon's wrath thingy.

    Like Lfg fbi/tong need OP - 2 DC only AC+DODC allowed no TR! no SW! is more interesting...

    Maybe you should reread that I also said its unique here compared to other mmos!
    stock and stone I can master, but there's a Wizard to manage here!
  • grimah
    grimah Member Posts: 1,658 Arc User
    They just need to either improved the buff/debuffing of some classes like TR/HR. The real issue is double DC stacking. Needs to be a way so having two is less effective than taking a different class
    Creator of the featured survival horror foundry: "The Silence of Haydenwick" Video Review
    and also the featured satirical comedic adventure "A Call for Heroes".
  • jonkoca
    jonkoca Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 2,586 Arc User
    edited August 2017
    I agree, at the moment as an HR, finding people to run ToNG is a pain in the behind. 2 dps, 2 DCs and an OP is doable. I suspect 2 ops 1 dc and 2 dps is doable too. But convincing people is another thing. 3 dps is a fail, unless the dps is so amazing that everything goes down like nothing.

    Really wishing my best geared alt was a D.C. instead of a cw these days.
    No idea what my toon is now.
  • werdandi#8366
    werdandi#8366 Member Posts: 332 Arc User
    edited August 2017
    jonkoca said:

    I agree, at the moment as an HR, finding people to run ToNG is a pain in the behind. 2 dps, 2 DCs and an OP is doable. I suspect 2 ops 1 dc and 2 dps is doable too. But convincing people is another thing. 3 dps is a fail, unless the dps is so amazing that everything goes down like nothing.

    Really wishing my best geared alt was a D.C. instead of a cw these days.

    At least HRs and GWFs are the current desirable dps classes (along with dps GFs)....
    Here is a successful To9G run with 2 dps (GWF and SW), 1 OP, 1 DC and 1 GF:
    I haven't unlocked To9G yet, but as usual, people tend to think that "optimized" groups are the only viable option.

  • jonkoca
    jonkoca Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 2,586 Arc User
    edited August 2017
    However... I know these players... they are pretty much the best in the game lol, class for class.
    No idea what my toon is now.
  • jonkoca
    jonkoca Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 2,586 Arc User
    This is also true unfortunately.
    No idea what my toon is now.
  • grimah
    grimah Member Posts: 1,658 Arc User
    > @defiantone99 said:
    > The classes are all out of balance, each attempt at class balance makes things worse. The DPS classes should be given more damage, survivability and utility, or the support classes need to be brought back into balance to be support. If support can replace DPS, DPS should be able to replace suppo> @defiantone99 said:
    > The classes are all out of balance, each attempt at class balance makes things worse. The DPS classes should be given more damage, survivability and utility, or the support classes need to be brought back into balance to be support. If support can replace DPS, DPS should be able to replace support.

    The dps classes do have their place still and are totally accepted. Apart from TR.. the real issue are the debuffing/buffs. Bringing another DC contributes more damage than a dpser. Luckily some dps class have a viable buff spec
    MoF CW, Temp SW for example so they can take a support slot too.

    However the major reason people taking double DC groups is to bypass 2nd boss mechanics in ToNG. Just like when Msva came out and required triple cleric for AA cheese
    Creator of the featured survival horror foundry: "The Silence of Haydenwick" Video Review
    and also the featured satirical comedic adventure "A Call for Heroes".
  • werdandi#8366
    werdandi#8366 Member Posts: 332 Arc User
    edited August 2017
    dolrey said:

    I am absolutely agree with author. Every top team in PvE now always have GF+OP+2DCs+1DD. And it really works by the following reasons:

    1) Having 2 tanks and 2 healers make your team very tanky and help to deal with strong incoming attacks.
    2) 4 supports in your team give 300% increase to damage for your DD what make him able to deal damage like 3 or even 4 usual DDs.

    So, this combination of high protection and high damage make this team the best now.

    Maybe the best in your opinion, but just the less risky for me.
    Low level players take way more risk when they run lower dungeons: they die because they are squishy, or don't do a lot of damage (looooong run), but they cope with it.
    I understand that people want a successful run, but there is no challenge here.
    Maybe a lack of patience ?

  • grimah
    grimah Member Posts: 1,658 Arc User


    Maybe the best in your opinion, but just the less risky for me.
    Low level players take way more risk when they run lower dungeons: they die because they are squishy, or don't do a lot of damage (looooong run), but they cope with it.
    I understand that people want a successful run, but there is no challenge here.
    Maybe a lack of patience ?

    The large majority just want easy mode, and play this game for different reasons. Same reason why a few people love dark souls and alot of people hate it or why people switch it on easy or normal difficulty where only some go for harder ones.

    Creator of the featured survival horror foundry: "The Silence of Haydenwick" Video Review
    and also the featured satirical comedic adventure "A Call for Heroes".
  • krymkac
    krymkac Member Posts: 210 Arc User
    edited August 2017
    That's why i geared my gf in mod 10. Originally it was supposed to be low geared alt to run t2s & cn for fun. But finding a group for fbi/msp/tong as dps takes forever. Not sure i agree with "ppl just want easy mod" though. Plenty don't mind the challenge. We actually tried tong with 1 dc 1 gf + 3 dps the other day for fun =) But the problem is you need to run it a lot to get full primal set or get new artifact unless really really lucky. Fun & challenge go only this far. I myself would rather not spend 1h+ for a possible r8 & 60-70 seals every single run. At this point ppl want seals not challenge hence the current meta.
  • tstrong21#4991
    tstrong21#4991 Member Posts: 19 Arc User
    These are all private queued runs, people doing private runs should be able to experiment and find the most efficient way to do them. I mean, if they REALLY wanted to force people to run with certain restrictions, all they would have to do is edit the private queue system to not allow two healers or two tanks in the same group. But that would make quite a few people mad.

    The later end-game stuff pretty much requires this type of party. FBI with a GF 3 DPS and 1 DC does not go anywhere near as fast or smooth as either 4 Supprt 1 DPS or 3 Support 1 Control/DPS and 1 DPS. So a whole rework of the end-game stuff would have to happen, because they are just too challenging to do the old way.


    They already nerfed Into the Fray, what more do you want them to nerf? I see a lot of people wanting a re-work done on bonding stones so that the companion isn't buffed then the owner is passed even more power. Well, what's the overall goal of requesting this nerf? To make dungeons take longer, to make people miserable? Close the gap between your DPS and theirs so that it isn't as embarrassing? or what? I don't understand. You should be happy for those people who make their toons deal 10s of millions of damage in a single hit, not act like it is some competition and demand a nerf.

    I see a lot of people hating on GFs for dealing increased damage, wanting a nerf for that, which isn't very fair to the class.

    #1. The possibility was always there, however, there were very few DPS GFs because most people that rolled them, wanted them as tanks. You are only seeing them so often now, because we have loadouts! Why punish the class for using loadouts?

    #2. GFs even specced as tanks are doing an increased amount of damage for a very specific reason. That reason being, the class was nerfed. Before, if you stacked your defense through the roof, into the fray passed on even more buffs. It was far more beneficial to stack defense than to be able to do any damage at all. After the ITF nerf, GFs only need to reach the cap. Which is achieved incredibly quickly.

    GFs then have a few choices, such as

    A. Change out negation for more useful enchantment such as Elven Battle, and stack recovery for more buff uptime, and secondary stat focus is power.

    B. Use trans negation to keep DR up, change set out for Demo set, basically become GWF with a shield who can also buff.

    I mean, I'm sure there are many GFs out there who would absolutely love to go back to stacking defense and buffing like crazy, but that isn't an option anymore, due to the ITF nerf. Right? Do you expect GFS to get nerfed, do less buffs, and do less damage? Might as well nerf the run speed right after that, don't want us to have too much fun.





  • time2011
    time2011 Member Posts: 125 Arc User
    if you dont like how puggs are going or that people dont want to do traditional runs just do a private que with buddies and guildies, problem solved, classes have been nerfed so many times its not even funny. asking to be nerfed again is the equivalent of saying everyone should just quit the game, its fun to experiment, hell the other day i found out i could dungeons solo, and even tried doin a run with four dc's and my dps and it was fun as hell.
  • mamalion1234
    mamalion1234 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 3,379 Arc User
    edited August 2017

    In the old days we used 2-3 dps+heal+tank.
    Currently it's not worth bringing more than one dps to the party. Recent top premade parties clearly shown that fast runs needed
    1 dps+4 buffer. Most popular is probably: op+gf+2dc+dps.
    If you try to bring another dps the run would slow down because a buffer bring more to the party than a second dps.

    They even use these classes to make damage to help the main dps job.
    Suprisingly these originally buffer/utility characters can get close in damage to the main dps. A conq-GF could even top that!

    They tried to nerf the buffs-debuffs in mod9 with some success. They managed to eliminate 800-1000% effectiveness values.
    Then a buff-debuff rework was in mod12 which wasn't really a big nerf. Just simplified the system.

    As a dps the game is changing from caring rotation + postioning + dodging to a Pavlov's dog watching buffs like commander's strike. Not fun...

    I think if 4 ppl supports one other it gives the people the wrong idea.
    Imho runs with more dps characters are more fun.
    In which other MMO buffers are this strong(even their dps) and only one dps character needed for a run?
    As an officer its also tiresome to tell rookies that "oh you want to be in a party huh"? "Delete your dps character and level a support/buffer"...

    You are wrong the rework was about debuffs to be additive with diminishing returns.
    When the subject came to the buffs dev gave an answer : We " would like to adress the buffs too" but "is large task".
    If you ask me the above means: devs dont want touch the buffs or they dont understand how bad is the buffing system.

    SYstem designers also answered to the question what will gonna happen with the two dc meta. THE answer is:

    We are aware of the two Cleric, two Tank, 1 DPS strategy that players are bringing into dungeons, and we've seen it in a fair amount of speed runs recently.

    One of the big problems here is the way that buffs and debuffs work in our game. Both of the Cleric Paragon Paths have just enough unique buffs/debuffs that it's worth running both of them to maximize efficiency. While we would like to move away from this, it's a large task and we don't really want to nerf Devoted Clerics without having other options available.

    I liked an idea a friend suggested to the reedit ( somehow his post removed and he can only see it ) they could remove some buff from dc and give it to other class( sw?).AN example forgmaster flame to get rework and get more damage boost to be a dps encounter and lose its buff ability and this 15% to go other class.

    THE above will adress the issue that the best party have to be two dc if you make more viable other class want -can play the buffing role.

    Also the bondings should stop transfer the power coming from power share or doesnt make sense the change devs made with the brutality-sudden rings marked as buffed stats and stopped proc on companion.

  • time2011
    time2011 Member Posts: 125 Arc User



    Also the bondings should stop transfer the power coming from power share or doesnt make sense the change devs made with the brutality-sudden rings marked as buffed stats and stopped proc on companion.

    the sudden rings or risings dont proc on pets because they fixed it so it no longer does that anymore it even says on the ring, companions cannot equip

  • sangrine
    sangrine Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 575 Arc User
    During peak game hours, when I play my DC, if I solo queue for every epic dungeon from Malabog down to CN, and sometimes including FBI too, almost every epic dungeon will instantly pop. I am not joking. I dont know if it has anything to do with 2 DC parties, but the shortage of healers is a big problem.

    Problem with nerfing or restricting dungeons to one healer and one tank is that TONG requires a lot of healing/tanking and also a lot of dps. I appreciate the increased difficulty in TONG but at the same time, but I wonder if the devs actually tried beating this dungeon with 3 dps and 1 tank and 1 healer.

    I dont mind if Cryptic nerfs us, but they better nerf tong too.
  • kemnimtarkas
    kemnimtarkas Member Posts: 831 Arc User

    In the old days we used 2-3 dps+heal+tank....

    As a dps the game is changing from caring rotation + postioning + dodging to a Pavlov's dog watching buffs like commander's strike. Not fun...

    No. Just....no.

    Back in the "old days' - prior to mod 6, GFs and DCs were out in the cold on end game content because you didn't need them - it was all DPS all the time. Thanks to things like the pre-nerf Endless Consumption, DPS classes could speed run dungeons faster w/o tanks. Which really sucked for players who chose the tank and healer classes - regardless of gear you'd get kicked just for the class you chose to play.

    IMHO the current status quo is way more balanced, and much preferred.
  • clericalist
    clericalist Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 595 Arc User
    It seems that no matter how they change the game a lot of players and play styles will be made obsolete. If they nerf the support classes, then there will be people demanding that they make these useful again. Both sides have a point, to make dps classes pointless does not seem right, as would support people (should the game return back to the "lfg 4 cw" days).

    Perhaps one solution is to hard cap how much damage a support class can do in parties (obviously this will not apply to solo play). So while the party could have ridiculous amounts of power sharing and other buffs, these would only be useful for the pure dps, and the rest would not be able to benefit as much. This would likely make it more desirable to have more than just one dps in the party.
  • mamalion1234
    mamalion1234 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 3,379 Arc User
    time2011 said:



    Also the bondings should stop transfer the power coming from power share or doesnt make sense the change devs made with the brutality-sudden rings marked as buffed stats and stopped proc on companion.

    the sudden rings or risings dont proc on pets because they fixed it so it no longer does that anymore it even says on the ring, companions cannot equip

    I know that and their supposed goal was to stop the ridiculous stats while a dc ac dc a dc do and an op protection can double buff a player through a companion ( yes ofcourse you will say if the other person has bondings) .

    IN Their best in slot and if they have 50k base they can buff a player who owns a companion with companion gear at 7k power the final result will be : 290k power from those three which would be around 100k if companion didnt transfer the buffed power.

    Afterall tr deserved the fixes( i dont play tr ) on whirlwind of blades and shadow of demise ( what did double benefits ooo)
  • tstrong21#4991
    tstrong21#4991 Member Posts: 19 Arc User
    And again, I feel it necessary to ask why this matters so much to you and some others? What is the overall goal of trying to nerf powersharing or buffing? To make dungeons take longer? Are people jealous of the ability of others to do large amounts of DPS? Some of you act like this is a competition with a limited amount of rewards. Does a GWF getting buffed into the clouds dropping 10s of millions of damage IBS hits really effect you in any way? Does it prevent you from enjoying the game? As a support class (GF) I love buff/debuff and making the speed of the run go quicker. I don't have a DPS toon so maybe I am just missing that mentality of "He does too much damage, must nerf him" since I actually enjoy speed runs.

    These are private queues. If you don't want to run with people that do this, why don't you make your own queue and run the dungeons your own way? Is the concern that a lot of DPS classes are getting left out? If so, then as a DPS class, sit in PE and ask LF4M 1Tank1Heal 2DPS easy, problem solved. Why is it necessary to nerf the way someone else is running their dungeons? It's not like if they get to the chest first that you wont have that opportunity when you get there.

    time2011 said:



    Also the bondings should stop transfer the power coming from power share or doesnt make sense the change devs made with the brutality-sudden rings marked as buffed stats and stopped proc on companion.

    the sudden rings or risings dont proc on pets because they fixed it so it no longer does that anymore it even says on the ring, companions cannot equip

    I know that and their supposed goal was to stop the ridiculous stats while a dc ac dc a dc do and an op protection can double buff a player through a companion ( yes ofcourse you will say if the other person has bondings) .

    IN Their best in slot and if they have 50k base they can buff a player who owns a companion with companion gear at 7k power the final result will be : 290k power from those three which would be around 100k if companion didnt transfer the buffed power.

    Afterall tr deserved the fixes( i dont play tr ) on whirlwind of blades and shadow of demise ( what did double benefits ooo)
  • gabrieldourden
    gabrieldourden Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,212 Arc User
    I did it yesterday with GF, DC, GWF, TR and my tempt SW. It takes more time but it's doable. I had the same issue discussing with people how to do the turtle in FBI. Most people just say that you need enough DPS or the turtle will stack and kill everybody, while if you play the mechanics well you can do it with very little DPS, taking more time.

    The real problem is that the support combination is not only the fastest but also the tankiest so it can do it faster and with less risk (with 2 DCs you can pretty much ignore mechanics at the second boss and just DPS down the thing in the middle). A combination that can kill stuff faster should be more squishy if we want to keep the game balanced. There should be a trade-off between damage and tankiness, i.e. if you go for more support classes that provide tankiness (tanking, healing, enemy damage debuffing, damage mitigation) in your team, you should lose DPS (assuming same player skill level and equipment).

    I agree with @rapo973 that a party-composition meta will always be there but the devs should try to manage things so that the meta is not that much skewed towards certain classes leaving the others in the gutter. It was the same at the end of mod5 when DPS classes didn't need any support and could rush through stuff while support classes took way too long time to do anything.


    Le-Shan: HR level 80 (main)
    Born of Black Wind: SW Level 80
  • clericalist
    clericalist Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 595 Arc User
    edited August 2017
    To all those here saying one should not rock the boat and leave everything as it is, the problem is that nobody wants to play a class that is useless. And is useless is precisely the correct word to use here, if someone has spent lots of time and possibly zen only to find that it does not matter what they do, they will always end up running a dungeon in more than double/triple/4x the time compared to the "correct" classes, that is a damning game experience.

    The 4/5 CW mandatory run was wrong, the bubbledin immortal team was wrong, the only one dps team is wrong. There is also something wrong if the GF tops the Tiamat paingiver by a big margin (this issue was posted in another thread here). These issues all needed fixing, this current one as well.