A form of PvP that is completely separate from PvE could be just as lucrative as the current state used to be. I would rather see more diversity in class building via paragon paths that could become more useful due to limitations of equipment, boons, mounts, etc that would be available for your particular class build. The PvP experience becomes more strategic and less "let's put our HAMSTERS on the table and see which one's bigger". Hard work is what I do when I'm at work, not when I'm gaming. Most of us have already opened our wallets in support of this game that we love.
So many complain about DC's yet for a DC to become unkillable they themselves can not kill. So really what is the issue? DPS just ticked because there are players they can not gank very easy. Then when a DC leans into any amount of ok DPS they become pretty darn squishy. So any nerf to DC is just going to hurt the righteous DC even more.
The only class i have an issue with is the TR and them being invisible 90% of the time. Clerics are either really tanky or "semi strong". But both can be killed.
I think HR and TR are currently really strong in PvP. I was thinking about making one for PvP but all good things come to an end. So i feel they wont be that strong much longer.
Sure we can play around with any sort of premise/assumption and see where that leads us but the only useful premises to consider are those that are realistic, in the current state of the game. As you suggest insignias are not so difficult to acquire. Cheap purple mounts can be found for under 200k ie: a couple of days of running dungeons or even at events. However, when we refer to mounts it obvious that we are not so much referring to purple mounts but rather legendary mounts that come along with handsome stats and also with powers - the famous lion being one of the more "advantage-providing" powers.
not really a huge gear gap in average population and what they can grind and achive.. they just need to be separated from the pvp Elites
True and true. The fact of the matter is that a representative sample of players in game is very different to a representative sample of players in pvp. But also true is that "average player" in game that likes to pvp is NOT separated from average "pvp Elite" currently. Fact! From that stems the utter surprise as to how anyone could disagree, in the current state of the public queue (because we are clearly not talking about the private queue) that SH boons and legendary mounts create substantial imbalance.
The thought experiment to see the imbalance SH boons and mounts create is one where the assumptions are: two players playing the same class, have exactly the same gear and are also similar in their "skill" in playing their class in pvp. The only difference is that one has access to top level 20 SH boons (whatever is best for him, 32k HP + power boon or ArP etc) AND let's say the lion mount. The other has a purple mount and a some boons from SH level 10. The winner in successive matches is obviously the former. So, the question that those who disagree with the initial statement at hand should answer is whether they are happy with this! Are they truly satisfied to know that their wins are based on this difference in SH boons and mount? Because, it is straightforward to see that if their answer is no then they might as well publicly state that they do not want to move towards a state of pvp where balance is achieved (in public queue always).
--> Removal of SH boons and legendary mounts (substitute legendary with epic if you have more stringent criteria than my own) are a necessary but not sufficient condition for a balanced pvp.
According to whom exactly? DCs can choose 2 trees for pvp (the this is not viable anymore) which shape them completely differently. Sure, the Righteous path should not be a tank. The faithful path however IS meant to be tanky. Just because it does not have a physical shield does not mean it is not meant to be a tank. Tankiness does not only come from damage mitigation but also from post-damage abilities that is healing.
And if you mean to say that a faithful DC should perish in a 1v1 fight easily, I do not agree at all with that. On the contrary it should hold its ground. Of course it should not hold its ground in a 4v1 or 5v1 fight and I don't think anyone ever claimed that that was reasonable.
That's why I laugh if people want the GF nerfed so badly. There are OP/GWF/DC and TR and all of them can counter a GF if build and played right.
When a large majority of players including some that actually play the class agree that a tone-down is required, then usually there is some truth in there. CC, CC-immunity, high burst DPS, high damage mitigation, buffs, potential for high movement speed and gap closers. Should any class be allowed to have all of the above? It might help to remember your own quote:
You want to nerf a class that doesn't need a nerf amongst high end PvPers with pvp builds just because you ASSUME tone downs to other classes which might happen or might not happen.
I simply disagree with your logic.
It is blatantly clear that the mass displeasure at GF capabilities vs other classes is nothing new and certainly precedes any of the changes the accompany the new mod. A TR that cannot run around one-shot everyone anymore and you call that not a tone-down? That is most certainly toned down. It is good they now have another option that allows them to rely on a different mechanic, but in ONE tree for now. So stop assuming a tone-down immediately means making a class useless. Other fact and announced: empowered Astral Shield less effective! Not a tone-down? right...
Also your post shows me that you have literally ZERO clue about the GF class. I haven't seen yet a GF that plays 2 paragon paths at the same time with 3 passives equipped? Or do you know one?
Of course, ITF speed and buff only happens in one tree? The best CC any class can have i.e. prone, and is not even in the form of a daily power, but in the form of an encounter - the GF favourite Bullcharge is also tree specific eh? CC immunity from Villain's Menace also tree dependent? And last but not least the magic Shield that you can put up to get damage mitigation and CC immunity, even to AoEs when you face them is also tree dependent? And wrong assumption yet again on your part, I do have GF - I am by far not the expert and created him as an alt to help me with understand its powers, buffs and mechanics to help my CW before practising with friends and trying to see how I can best survive against one. Make as many personal attacks as you like, you seem fond of that strategy.
As I said many times, you cannot balance on the opinion of the majority because the majority has too little knowledge about end-game PvP. The so called "majority" is low to mid item level players that complain about maxed out BiS PvPer.
As harsh as it may sound. Everyone who is not BiS and didn't play plenty of matches with 9 other BiS players is not even qualified to post some balance requests, because the problem on your side is not balance... it's gear gap and often pve vs pvp build.
Although I could just let your own words speak for themselves to point out the extent of the elitism they convey and a substantial disregard for the fact that the majority of players are not BiS in this game, it is worth remembering that is takes YEARS for a character to level up to BiS. Claiming that the only balance that we need to care about is BiS balance is selfish and excludes a massive part of the player base to say the least. Of course BiS should be considered but non-BiS just as much, especially since the average player spend years in that state of non-BiS.
You seem to be confusing two types of threads, both that are equally represented on these forums. " low to mid item level players that complain about maxed out BiS PvPer" are not stupid in realising that there is a gear gap - that is why threads that complain about matching and meeting BiS premades exist; that is also why other threads that debate differences between classes exist in conjunction with the former. Do not conflate the two.
Lastly you claim that "Everyone who is not BiS and didn't play plenty of matches with 9 other BiS players" should remain silent on balance discussion and then you aim to discredit some that do match those criteria AND are capable of number crunching to produce evidence in favour of their argument AND that clearly have the vote of confidence of other BiS players, by flatly saying that they have not been active in the last couple of mods (last feedback thread). Not sure then, who you want your discussion to take place with really - perhaps only those who are BiS AND agree with you? Most surely the basis for unproductive discussions and outcomes.
@xsayajinx1 2nd: one-shot TRs were only viable in pug pvp, to one-shot pugs that are running around like clueless chickens, there was not a single viable one-shot TR in high-end pvp matches. Thanks at least for confirming where you coming from.
can't believe you wrote this. Maybe u should check own youtube page to see bis trs with shocking execution!
@xsayajinx1 it's ok. Next time you could also say: GFs using bullcharge are only viable in pug pvp to one rotate pugs but no viable high end bis GF use bullcharge. You have difficulty understanding me but I think you understand fine. You claim to know everything and then you come out with these lines. If you don't understand, other will.
3
zebularMember, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 15,270Community Moderator
It's time for this match to end. Scoreboard broken.
Comments
I think HR and TR are currently really strong in PvP. I was thinking about making one for PvP but all good things come to an end. So i feel they wont be that strong much longer.
Sure we can play around with any sort of premise/assumption and see where that leads us but the only useful premises to consider are those that are realistic, in the current state of the game. As you suggest insignias are not so difficult to acquire. Cheap purple mounts can be found for under 200k ie: a couple of days of running dungeons or even at events. However, when we refer to mounts it obvious that we are not so much referring to purple mounts but rather legendary mounts that come along with handsome stats and also with powers - the famous lion being one of the more "advantage-providing" powers.
True and true. The fact of the matter is that a representative sample of players in game is very different to a representative sample of players in pvp. But also true is that "average player" in game that likes to pvp is NOT separated from average "pvp Elite" currently. Fact! From that stems the utter surprise as to how anyone could disagree, in the current state of the public queue (because we are clearly not talking about the private queue) that SH boons and legendary mounts create substantial imbalance.
The thought experiment to see the imbalance SH boons and mounts create is one where the assumptions are: two players playing the same class, have exactly the same gear and are also similar in their "skill" in playing their class in pvp. The only difference is that one has access to top level 20 SH boons (whatever is best for him, 32k HP + power boon or ArP etc) AND let's say the lion mount. The other has a purple mount and a some boons from SH level 10. The winner in successive matches is obviously the former.
So, the question that those who disagree with the initial statement at hand should answer is whether they are happy with this! Are they truly satisfied to know that their wins are based on this difference in SH boons and mount? Because, it is straightforward to see that if their answer is no then they might as well publicly state that they do not want to move towards a state of pvp where balance is achieved (in public queue always).
--> Removal of SH boons and legendary mounts (substitute legendary with epic if you have more stringent criteria than my own) are a necessary but not sufficient condition for a balanced pvp.
Aelan Icebleed (CW)
And if you mean to say that a faithful DC should perish in a 1v1 fight easily, I do not agree at all with that. On the contrary it should hold its ground. Of course it should not hold its ground in a 4v1 or 5v1 fight and I don't think anyone ever claimed that that was reasonable. When a large majority of players including some that actually play the class agree that a tone-down is required, then usually there is some truth in there. CC, CC-immunity, high burst DPS, high damage mitigation, buffs, potential for high movement speed and gap closers. Should any class be allowed to have all of the above? It might help to remember your own quote: Tone downs to TR, DC and more to come in near future for the sake of balance. And then you "laugh" at the suggestion of a tone down to the GF.
Aelan Icebleed (CW)
You seem to be confusing two types of threads, both that are equally represented on these forums. " low to mid item level players that complain about maxed out BiS PvPer" are not stupid in realising that there is a gear gap - that is why threads that complain about matching and meeting BiS premades exist; that is also why other threads that debate differences between classes exist in conjunction with the former. Do not conflate the two.
Lastly you claim that "Everyone who is not BiS and didn't play plenty of matches with 9 other BiS players" should remain silent on balance discussion and then you aim to discredit some that do match those criteria AND are capable of number crunching to produce evidence in favour of their argument AND that clearly have the vote of confidence of other BiS players, by flatly saying that they have not been active in the last couple of mods (last feedback thread). Not sure then, who you want your discussion to take place with really - perhaps only those who are BiS AND agree with you? Most surely the basis for unproductive discussions and outcomes.
Aelan Icebleed (CW)
can't believe you wrote this. Maybe u should check own youtube page to see bis trs with shocking execution!
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