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stronghold weapons II vs Storm King weapons.

dyukillerdyukiller Member Posts: 89 Arc User
hello forum friends, we are having a huge discussion on my guild about whitch weapon is the best one.
both has same stats but different bonuses, so i'll discribe what their are saying:

first argument is:
dps means damge per second, assuming you get the same dmg on a skill, like 100 and you have 10s cooldown this means the dps of that skill is 10. (100/10=10) that the reason why recovery is an offecive stat.

Ok, start by this, storm king weapons has 10% for 10s and 20s cool down. is correct count this bonus over time?
like:
(10%/20s=0.5%)
or count all the time for activate again:
(10%/30s=0.33%)
and this should be /2, becouse you have chance to ative a deffencive stats that measn 0% bonus dmg.
(10%/30=0,33%)/2 = 0,16

remember, we are talking about overal bonus dmg is just becouse stronghold weapons has no cooldown.
if that is right, means use stronghold weapon is 1,5% or 1,67% bonus dmg overal over storm king weapons.

Second argumet is:

Only support classes should use stronghold weapons, to buff dmg dealers and help protect them.
Dmg dealers should use storm king becouse if you have a party with 3 supports using stronghold weapons they'll pass 6% dmg buff, and whem storm king activate they'll have 16% bonus dmg.


my opinion:

5 players using stronghold means 10% more dmg,10% more heals and 10% less dmg taken without any cooldown is the best bonus we can have and everybody should use.
(this bonus affect companion too.)

well, could you guys help me end this topic?
Please don't worry to argu about the price, and how hard is to do masterwork or things like stom king if free but ild / uvar marks si hard to get you know what i'm saying?


the point here is compare weapon bonuses.


ps. my english is rusty but my sword is sharp. :)
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Comments

  • dupeksdupeks Member Posts: 1,789 Arc User
    dyukiller said:

    hello forum friends, we are having a huge discussion on my guild about whitch weapon is the best one.
    both has same stats but different bonuses, so i'll discribe what their are saying:

    first argument is:
    dps means damge per second, assuming you get the same dmg on a skill, like 100 and you have 10s cooldown this means the dps of that skill is 10. (100/10=10) that the reason why recovery is an offecive stat.

    Ok, start by this, storm king weapons has 10% for 10s and 20s cool down. is correct count this bonus over time?
    like:
    (10%/20s=0.5%)
    or count all the time for activate again:
    (10%/30s=0.33%)
    and this should be /2, becouse you have chance to ative a deffencive stats that measn 0% bonus dmg.
    (10%/30=0,33%)/2 = 0,16

    remember, we are talking about overal bonus dmg is just becouse stronghold weapons has no cooldown.
    if that is right, means use stronghold weapon is 1,5% or 1,67% bonus dmg overal over storm king weapons.

    Second argumet is:

    Only support classes should use stronghold weapons, to buff dmg dealers and help protect them.
    Dmg dealers should use storm king becouse if you have a party with 3 supports using stronghold weapons they'll pass 6% dmg buff, and whem storm king activate they'll have 16% bonus dmg.


    my opinion:

    5 players using stronghold means 10% more dmg,10% more heals and 10% less dmg taken without any cooldown is the best bonus we can have and everybody should use.
    (this bonus affect companion too.)

    well, could you guys help me end this topic?
    Please don't worry to argu about the price, and how hard is to do masterwork or things like stom king if free but ild / uvar marks si hard to get you know what i'm saying?


    the point here is compare weapon bonuses.


    ps. my english is rusty but my sword is sharp. :)

    Not an expert in damage-dealing classes, but I wanted to throw out 2 additional ideas:

    The +2% from SH weapons has 100% uptime, whereas the relic weps have 10 sec uptime and 30 sec cooldown so only 33.33% uptime. The Relic weps also have a bonus that is not necessarily easy to time and trigger, especially with how often shifting is used by common dps classes. Not saying a great dps player cannot consistently trigger the offensive bonus, but it's harder to do that (and you theoretically sacrifice at least a little bit of flexibility with your movement / rotation timing).

    That said, if you know you are getting a 10% buff right then and there, then you can time it with your big hits.

    Buffs are multiplicative with each other. I vaguely recall that the +2% per stack from the SH weapons is additive with itself (meaning 2 stacks is +4%, not (+2%)*(+2%) ), but the Relic offensive buff and the SH weapon buff are definitely multiplicative, not additive. It's a very subtle difference, but it's important to call out.

    So with +6% party and +10% from relic, you'd be sitting at (1.06) * (1.1) = 1.166 ~ 16.6% total damage increase from the two buffs combined.

    In my subtle unfounded speculative opinion, the constant uptime + easy of use gives relics the upper hand for the "average" dps player. Careful pros can squeeze out more damage using the relics, by timing their rotations and coordinating with teammates to burst when the offensive relic buff procs. Depends on whether you think you can consistently pull that off or not.

    As soon as you're not the top damage dealer in the party though, then SH weps clearly win out.
  • dyukillerdyukiller Member Posts: 89 Arc User
    edited July 2017
    one friend of mine, said he can activate offence bonus of relic weapon only whem he wants, and that the reason, using his words: sh weapons "s*cks".
    as a gwf i can tell for me is almost impossible, been a melee class run is the difference between kill and die.

    I have 5 friend that wants to run togheter, op,gf,dc, cw and me gwf. all 16k+.

    we start to talk and buy/make SH weapons and the critics from others guilmattes began.

    so i decided to put this here, to understand, and ocasinally send this tread link to them.

    One guildmatte said:
    relic dps is 3.3, becouse you have to count 10% for every second it is ative
    (10%*10s=100%/30s =3.3%)

    and to have more dmg bonus we'll need at least 2 ppl, to have 4%

    but if it is correct, SH can be calculated at the same way, using 30s of relics
    (2%*30=60%)

    that makes think : we don't know nothing about it!

  • dyukillerdyukiller Member Posts: 89 Arc User
    edited July 2017
    ...
    Post edited by dyukiller on
  • dupeksdupeks Member Posts: 1,789 Arc User
    dyukiller said:

    one friend of mine, said he can activate offence bonus of relic weapon only whem he wants, and that the reason, using his words: sh weapons "s*cks".
    as a gwf i can tell for me is almost impossible, been a melee class run is the difference between kill and die.

    I have 5 friend that wants to run togheter, op,gf,dc, cw and me gwf. all 16k+.

    we start to talk and buy/make SH weapons and the critics from others guilmattes began.

    so i decided to put this here, to understand, and ocasinally send this tread link to them.

    One guildmatte said:
    relic dps is 3.3, becouse you have to count 10% for every second it is ative
    (10%*10s=100%/30s =3.3%)

    and to have more dmg bonus we'll need at least 2 ppl, to have 4%

    but if it is correct, SH can be calculated at the same way, using 30s of relics
    (2%*30=60%)

    that makes think : we don't know nothing about it!

    I think it's a bit misleading though to count seconds of uptime. and multiplying it out.(that 2% * 30 = 60% makes no sense to me)

    Especially since burst can be very valuable. It's the same reason sudden crit/power rings are popular: because having a short window where your damage is substantially higher is more conducive to this game's combat mechanics. Put another way, if you have 10sec of big damage buff at the start of every fight and you finish every fight in 10sec or less and have 20sec in between big fights, then your effective uptime on relics is closer to 100%, certainly much higher than 33%.

    And more so, if you can consistently time your big hits to land in the 10% buff window, then they are getting the full 10% buff and not ever the 0% buff. So again a 3.3% estimation is a simplification that devalues burst, when in fact burst is really important for dps in this game.

    Finally, since each person's SH wep adds 2% independently, I would say it's a little misleading to say that "2 people with SH are better than 1 person with relics". Decision analysis would ask the question "if I have 1 person with SH wep, is it better to add a damage dealer with relic or another SH?"

    Sorry I'm playing both sides here, but there really isn't a great way to answer this question outside of specific party compositions and player skill levels.

    Like I said before, in my opinion a great damage dealer player can squeeze more damage out of relic weps, but has to work for it. But if they aren't the top damage dealer, or they aren't great at controlling the offensive relic buff and timing with their rotations, then relic weps will provide more damage contribution to the party.
  • dyukillerdyukiller Member Posts: 89 Arc User
    edited July 2017
    @dupeks

    Thank you again for responding.
    The same thing happened in the guild.
    Doubts, questionings, interpretations and some playing on both sides.

    We get lost by not understanding correctly how to calculate the average DPS of the relic weapon,

    In the end, nothing was solved, some think the relic is the best others think SH is better.

    Well we made a group with SH weapons, and it's 100% better in my opinion, I have the relic and I had the aboleth (which I used to refine the SH)

    And I feel a huge difference, you know that moment that activates the bonus and you start giving very high hits?
    Then imagine this from the beginning to the end of the dungeon.
    Gf and Op, reporting a resistance to damage never before seen by them.

    10% dmg.
    10% heals
    10% less damage

    All this all the time, and in the companions the effect is the same.
    My fire archon did not die at manticore. (my suicide fire archon.... tanking, i must be dreaming)
    Cures from companions are larger, tank companions are almost immortal,

    It's not just you who gets strong for 10s, it's going to be your whole team!
    Regardless of class, companions, distance or build, is a direct and complete buff.

    This is worth quoting, a friend thought it had a buff distance, something like "X" feet.
    No, there is not! You can be at the first campfire and your friends at last boss.

    My conclusion although some guildmattes do not agree, the BIS is a group with 5 SH weapons.
    But it is always so, when someone famous on youtube / twitch say that SH weapons are BIS, they will change their mind.

    This speeds up everything! Deadly serious.
  • spideymtspideymt Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 710 Arc User
    If you wanna do the best for your party switch your fire archon to a con artist or to a mercenary. The debuff is too good and stacks.

  • dupeksdupeks Member Posts: 1,789 Arc User
    spideymt said:

    If you wanna do the best for your party switch your fire archon to a con artist or to a mercenary. The debuff is too good and stacks.

    That's about to change... in 1 week. I'm not certain I would recommend it for non-support classes after the debuff changes.

  • thefiresidecatthefiresidecat Member Posts: 4,486 Arc User
    isn't there also a new mw weapon set coming out?
  • spideymtspideymt Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 710 Arc User
    dupeks said:

    That's about to change... in 1 week. I'm not certain I would recommend it for non-support classes after the debuff changes.

    Where can i read that they change the debuffs from conartist/mercenary? Gimme the link plz. I cant find any official informations about it.

  • dupeksdupeks Member Posts: 1,789 Arc User
    spideymt said:

    dupeks said:

    That's about to change... in 1 week. I'm not certain I would recommend it for non-support classes after the debuff changes.

    Where can i read that they change the debuffs from conartist/mercenary? Gimme the link plz. I cant find any official informations about it.
    Not sure if you're being facetious or not haha. All debuffs are getting rolled in under a single cap, and diminishing returns applied for even more punishment. Uncapped debuffs are getting a pretty hard nerf.

    https://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter#/discussion/1231982/official-feedback-thread-m12-armor-pen-and-damage-vulnerability-debuff-changes/p1
    dupeks said:

    Here's a summary of the proposed changes:

    What is intended in the new system is a +300% (quadruple base damage) cap, and everything should live under this cap.

    Rgutscheradev has been using +% numbers rather than ACT effectiveness % when describing the changes, which is a little different than some forum-dwellers are used to. So know that the +300% above is the same as 400% effectiveness in ACT. Using this +% terminology, the old debuff cap was +100% (200% effectiveness).

    But you'll never reach the new +300% cap, because it's really an asymptote with a steeply diminishing return curve to approach it. Janne posted an interactive link with the curve:

    https://www.desmos.com/calculator/k6dbonvo5y

    Borrowing that equation, I sampled some points so that you can get an idea of how steep the diminishing returns are:

    At +50% additive debuff -> +47.4% diminished actual
    At +100% additive debuff -> +92.5% diminished actual
    At +150% additive debuff ->+129.5% diminished actual
    At +200% additive debuff -> +158.3% diminished actual
    At +250% additive debuff -> +180.4% diminished actual
    At +300% additive debuff -> +197.7% diminished actual
    At +350% additive debuff -> +211.3% diminished actual
    At +400% additive debuff -> +222.3% diminished actual
    At +450% additive debuff -> +231.2% diminished actual
    At +500% additive debuff -> +238.5% diminished actual

    So generally speaking:
    Everything above ~+200% is diminished by more than half (x0.5 effective)
    Everything above ~+300% is diminished by more than two thirds (x0.33 effective).
    Everything above ~+400% is diminished by more than four fifths (x0.2 effective)
    And it continues to become more punitive as you go higher.

    So whereas now a Sellsword provides 10% or nearly 10% if you have a handful of uncapped buffs, in the new system it'll just be an additive 10% that gets rolled in under the cap, and has diminishing returns applied.

    So if you already have a lot of other debuffs, the Sellsword's contribution is way lower than it used to be. For example if it's taking you from +200% to +210% additive, then it will take you from 156.1% ->161% which is an incremental damage increase of (1.61 - 1.561)/1.561 = 0.03139013452 ~ 3.14% damage increase
  • spideymtspideymt Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 710 Arc User
    edited July 2017
    dupeks said:

    Not sure if you're being facetious or not haha. All debuffs are getting rolled in under a single cap, and diminishing returns applied for even more punishment. Uncapped debuffs are getting a pretty hard nerf.

    First of all, it was a simple question because in the thread you lined:

    https://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter#/discussion/1231982/official-feedback-thread-m12-armor-pen-and-damage-vulnerability-debuff-changes/p1

    is one point i dont understand:


    ** Note bonus damage from Power and from various buffs on the attacker is not part of this system, and hasn’t changed in any way.

    So i just asked a simple question and where i can read that debuffs from comps dont work in mod 12. I hope it makes sense for you.
    Post edited by spideymt on

  • niadanniadan Member Posts: 1,635 Arc User
    edited July 2017
    Correct me if I am wrong, but arp is not included in this diminishing returns applied to debuffs and is still considered separate before debuffs are applied? @micky1p00
    Post edited by niadan on
  • micky1p00micky1p00 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 3,594 Arc User
    spideymt said:

    dupeks said:

    Not sure if you're being facetious or not haha. All debuffs are getting rolled in under a single cap, and diminishing returns applied for even more punishment. Uncapped debuffs are getting a pretty hard nerf.

    First of all, it was a simple question because in the thread you lined:

    https://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter#/discussion/1231982/official-feedback-thread-m12-armor-pen-and-damage-vulnerability-debuff-changes/p1

    is one point i dont understand:


    ** Note bonus damage from Power and from various buffs on the attacker is not part of this system, and hasn’t changed in any way.

    So i just asked a simple question and where i can read that debuffs from comps dont work in mod 12. I hope it makes sense for you.
    I don't see anyone mention the debuff wont work. The difference is that it will be stacked together with all the rest of debuffs, meaning that you will get less than 10% from it, and add to it the diminishing return and you get even less.
    Also consider that it not always attacking what it should, and.... you get less...

    And yes, I use a sellsword with full loyal avenger set, so it's all things to take into considerations.
  • rafaeldarafaelda Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 666 Arc User
    edited July 2017
    dyukiller said:

    @dupeks

    Thank you again for responding.
    The same thing happened in the guild.
    Doubts, questionings, interpretations and some playing on both sides.

    We get lost by not understanding correctly how to calculate the average DPS of the relic weapon,

    In the end, nothing was solved, some think the relic is the best others think SH is better.

    Well we made a group with SH weapons, and it's 100% better in my opinion, I have the relic and I had the aboleth (which I used to refine the SH)

    And I feel a huge difference, you know that moment that activates the bonus and you start giving very high hits?
    Then imagine this from the beginning to the end of the dungeon.
    Gf and Op, reporting a resistance to damage never before seen by them.

    10% dmg.
    10% heals
    10% less damage

    All this all the time, and in the companions the effect is the same.
    My fire archon did not die at manticore. (my suicide fire archon.... tanking, i must be dreaming)
    Cures from companions are larger, tank companions are almost immortal,

    It's not just you who gets strong for 10s, it's going to be your whole team!
    Regardless of class, companions, distance or build, is a direct and complete buff.

    This is worth quoting, a friend thought it had a buff distance, something like "X" feet.
    No, there is not! You can be at the first campfire and your friends at last boss.

    My conclusion although some guildmattes do not agree, the BIS is a group with 5 SH weapons.
    But it is always so, when someone famous on youtube / twitch say that SH weapons are BIS, they will change their mind.

    This speeds up everything! Deadly serious.

    The 100% uptime bonus weapons will always be better for GWF because is on Long fight (bosses) that GWF shine
    also the SH effect over companion/pets is really usefull

    that's why i also think SH weapons are beter for dungeons, even more if youre a GWF

    The Burst weapons and rings are nice to mob killing wille farming, they work even better on a CW wille doing daily's for ex...

    Anyway if you have some good guild mates that will make the SH weapons and run with you, theres no doubt about i the the SH set (because you should have no problemt do farm dailys after 12k gs anyway)
    is on Dungeons/Skirmishes that you will need that buff and there is always better (and more fun) to have some friends around...
  • dupeksdupeks Member Posts: 1,789 Arc User
    edited July 2017
    spideymt said:

    dupeks said:

    Not sure if you're being facetious or not haha. All debuffs are getting rolled in under a single cap, and diminishing returns applied for even more punishment. Uncapped debuffs are getting a pretty hard nerf.

    First of all, it was a simple question because in the thread you lined:

    https://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter#/discussion/1231982/official-feedback-thread-m12-armor-pen-and-damage-vulnerability-debuff-changes/p1

    is one point i dont understand:


    ** Note bonus damage from Power and from various buffs on the attacker is not part of this system, and hasn’t changed in any way.

    So i just asked a simple question and where i can read that debuffs from comps dont work in mod 12. I hope it makes sense for you.
    Let's take a look at the situation on live right now:
    1. Buffs are multiplicative (+4% buff is always +4% and always gives you *1.04 damage)
    2. Capped debuffs are additive with each other, and capped to +100% or 200% effectiveness. Also, since they are additive, the more you have, the less each +1% is worth. (put another way, going from +0% debuffs to +5% debuffs is 5% damage increase (1.05-1)/1=0.05, but going from +95% to +100% is only (2-1.95)/1.95=0.02564102564~2.56% damage increase)
    3. Uncapped debuffs are additive with each other, and multiplicative with capped buffs. So the first 10% you get is actually 10% damage bonus. The next 10% (say 2nd sellsword) is worth (1.2 - 1.1)/1.1 = 0.0909090909~9.01% damage increase. So since they are additive, the more you have, the less each +1% is worth. But since this bucket contains very few uncapped debuffs, it's often that you're getting close to the full amount.
    OK so what is happening on preview?
    1. Buffs are multiplicative. Nothing has changed with buffs. (+4% buff is always +4% damage increase)
    2. All debuffs are now rolled into a single additive bucket. There is no more capped vs. uncapped. Furthermore, there is additional diminishing returns applied that reduce the impact of debuffs even more than the natural additive nature of the math. Additive components have natural diminishing returns (like you saw above) but there is an additional diminishing formula being applied in the new system that further reduces debuffs the more you have.
    So what's that mean? It means that anything that used to be an uncapped debuff isn't going to be super special anymore. Uncapped debuffs used to be in a very small pool of debuffs that were almost always worth their full tooltip debuff value because not a lot of things were counting as uncapped. Since all debuffs are going into a big pool now, the additive nature of the math makes you get less damage with each +1% debuff. In addition, the diminishing returns penalty further reduces that.

    So in an end-game party, a sellsword used to provide say +5% to +10% additional damage increase, depending on how many uncapped debuffs you had.

    In the new system, same end-game party, I would expect a sellsword to provide <4% damage increase (potentially way less than 4%, maybe closer to 2%), depending on how many total debuffs you have.

    To clarify: I wasn't saying the debuff wasn't going to work at all. I was saying that it won't be "too good to pass up" anymore, especially for main damage dealer classes who might benefit the party most by slotting a roster full of archons and other damage buff pets.
    Post edited by dupeks on
  • micky1p00micky1p00 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 3,594 Arc User
    dupeks said:


    2. Capped buffs ...
    3. Uncapped buffs...

    Should be "debuffs" ;)
  • nemesis666#6862 nemesis666 Member Posts: 23 Arc User
    edited July 2017
    thx dupeks for the easy to understand clarification
  • dupeksdupeks Member Posts: 1,789 Arc User
    edited July 2017
    micky1p00 said:

    dupeks said:


    2. Capped buffs ...
    3. Uncapped buffs...

    Should be "debuffs" ;)
    Jeebus I'm bad before my coffee. Thank you for keeping me honest. Wow rereading that garbage post of mine... I made a lot of errors. I think I fixed them all now...
  • niadanniadan Member Posts: 1,635 Arc User
    edited July 2017
    @dupeks we all know you did that imtentionally to see who was actually paying attention. @thefabricant does it on occasion as well...just a test...wink wink nod nod...know what I mean (shameless monty python quote).
    Post edited by niadan on
  • sangrinesangrine Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 575 Arc User
    Thanks to this discussion, I bought SH II mainhand/offhand from the auction house for my DC.
    Would buy them for my other characters too, but they are not cheap.
  • wintersmokewintersmoke Member Posts: 1,641 Arc User
    dupeks said:

    micky1p00 said:

    dupeks said:


    2. Capped buffs ...
    3. Uncapped buffs...

    Should be "debuffs" ;)
    Jeebus I'm bad before my coffee. Thank you for keeping me honest. Wow rereading that garbage post of mine... I made a lot of errors. I think I fixed them all now...
    That's why I switched to cold-brew... in an I.V. drip 0,o
  • neirgaraneirgara Member Posts: 334 Arc User
    dyukiller said:

    hello forum friends, we are having a huge discussion on my guild about whitch weapon is the best one.
    both has same stats but different bonuses, so i'll discribe what their are saying:

    first argument is:
    dps means damge per second, assuming you get the same dmg on a skill, like 100 and you have 10s cooldown this means the dps of that skill is 10. (100/10=10) that the reason why recovery is an offecive stat.

    Ok, start by this, storm king weapons has 10% for 10s and 20s cool down. is correct count this bonus over time?
    like:
    (10%/20s=0.5%)
    or count all the time for activate again:
    (10%/30s=0.33%)
    and this should be /2, becouse you have chance to ative a deffencive stats that measn 0% bonus dmg.
    (10%/30=0,33%)/2 = 0,16

    remember, we are talking about overal bonus dmg is just becouse stronghold weapons has no cooldown.
    if that is right, means use stronghold weapon is 1,5% or 1,67% bonus dmg overal over storm king weapons.

    Second argumet is:

    Only support classes should use stronghold weapons, to buff dmg dealers and help protect them.
    Dmg dealers should use storm king becouse if you have a party with 3 supports using stronghold weapons they'll pass 6% dmg buff, and whem storm king activate they'll have 16% bonus dmg.


    my opinion:

    5 players using stronghold means 10% more dmg,10% more heals and 10% less dmg taken without any cooldown is the best bonus we can have and everybody should use.
    (this bonus affect companion too.)

    well, could you guys help me end this topic?
    Please don't worry to argu about the price, and how hard is to do masterwork or things like stom king if free but ild / uvar marks si hard to get you know what i'm saying?


    the point here is compare weapon bonuses.


    ps. my english is rusty but my sword is sharp. :)


    There seems to be one wrong Argument. Stronghold Weapons grant their Bonus only to others, who use Stronghold Weapons. If, for example, your DC and your OP both use Stronghold, and the 3 dd use Relic, then the DD all only will get their Relic Weapon's Bonus of 10%, while DC and OP both will get 4% (2% from own weapon and 2% extra from the other Stronghold Weapon)

    Besides this your equation is ok. But you have to include different situations and conditions.

    For example: Relic Weapon is a good weapon for a CW, as the CW most of the time can activate an Encounter, before he Needs to shift. A GWF on the other Hand often Needs to run to reach Close Combat, so a Stronghold Weapon could be of more use damage-wise.

    Another problem is, that there are burst situations, where you need that bonus only for 10 seconds, and Long-time situations (bossfights), where you have that bonus only during 1/3 of the time.

    Also, you have to include the risk of playing with other group constellations. If, for example you Play with the same 5 People, who each have a Stronghold Weapon, then you have a full-time Bonus of +10% damage and -10% enemy damage. This is always better than a Relic Weapons bonus. But if 2 or more in your Group do not have a Stronghold Weapon, then this equation does not work.

    What I want to say is:

    There is no universal solution for your problem.

    But you can find out, how your average group situation and your average run will be. And then apply to that situation different scenarios, one where each has a Relic Weapon, one where each has a Stronghold Weapon, and one, where each has the weapon, that makes the most sense without taking the group into account.

    If, for example, you find out, that you only run with the same Group of friends, and it is possible this way to assure, that at least 4 members have a Stronghold Weapon all the time, the Stronghold ones probably will be the better weapon.
  • santralafaxsantralafax Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 2,896 Arc User
    neirgara said:


    There seems to be one wrong Argument. Stronghold Weapons grant their Bonus only to others, who use Stronghold Weapons. If, for example, your DC and your OP both use Stronghold, and the 3 dd use Relic, then the DD all only will get their Relic Weapon's Bonus of 10%, while DC and OP both will get 4% (2% from own weapon and 2% extra from the other Stronghold Weapon)

    I think you are mistaken right here. EVERYONE in the party gets the buffs. If the DD have relic weapons, they get the relic bonus AND the MW bonus. I"ve been a DD in parties with MW weapons and they do work this way.
  • neirgaraneirgara Member Posts: 334 Arc User

    neirgara said:


    There seems to be one wrong Argument. Stronghold Weapons grant their Bonus only to others, who use Stronghold Weapons. If, for example, your DC and your OP both use Stronghold, and the 3 dd use Relic, then the DD all only will get their Relic Weapon's Bonus of 10%, while DC and OP both will get 4% (2% from own weapon and 2% extra from the other Stronghold Weapon)

    I think you are mistaken right here. EVERYONE in the party gets the buffs. If the DD have relic weapons, they get the relic bonus AND the MW bonus. I"ve been a DD in parties with MW weapons and they do work this way.
    That's good to know. The tooltip says otherwise, but it would not be the first time, this happened.

    That fact definitiely needs to be considered when thinking about the scenarios.

  • dyukillerdyukiller Member Posts: 89 Arc User
    last night we did MSVA only for SH weapons,10 players with SHII, no glitchs or bugged toons.

    6 minutes Jarl Storvald was dead meat, no dead men's.
  • dairyzeusdairyzeus Member Posts: 304 Arc User
    If you're the main DPS in a full buff group (aka you're making up 60% or more of a teams damage) then relic can be the right choice.

    This is under a lot of assumptions:
    You hit every offensive bonus
    You line up your big hits with your offensive bonus
    your teams buff uptimes line up with your offensive bonus
    you don't lose any combat time trying to manipulate the relic bonuses
    you're in combat for the full duration of the offensive bonus
    you're attacking for the full duration of the offensive bonus
    and probably a lot more i'm not thinking of

    I feel in real life scenarios (outside of very specific groups) you won't be able to utilize the offensive bonus enough to make it a better choice for a clearing a dungeon faster. That's only considering the offensive portion of the MW weapons. I'm also of the minority opinion that the defensive bonuses from the MW weapons are also useful.

    I do think it's possible to get a better damage boost out of relic, I just don't think it'll be much better than relic even when it happens, and it won't happen often.

    It's all moot though since 95% of dps players only care about paingiver and a 10% bonus for yourself will always look better on the paingiver chart than 2% for everyone.

    I would always choose MW > relic except the CW set is so HAMSTER expensive.
  • spidey#3367 spidey Member Posts: 400 Arc User
    dyukiller said:

    last night we did MSVA only for SH weapons,10 players with SHII, no glitchs or bugged toons.

    6 minutes Jarl Storvald was dead meat, no dead men's.

    Nothing special...you can do this without SH weapons too...easy.
  • baeyornbaeyorn Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 146 Arc User
    fwiw...

    I have SHII on my gwf main, and am gearing up all the alts with the crafted Chult weapons.

    :)
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