@rgutscheradev is doing a fantastic job of steering the tenacity changes in the right direction.
Everyone needs to give the devs a break and let them focus on the tenacity formula. Individual class changes needs to wait until the tenacity formula is polished out so we can analyze class performances post changes.
Currently, pvp has extremes of everything: damage/piercing, crowd control, and healing. So far, damage and crowd control has been addressed from a global perspective, and the tenacity changes is helping alleviate equally geared players from getting one-shotted/one-rotated. Now healing needs to be addressed.
With these changes to CC and damage, the survivability of players is going to be too high with the currently healing depression at 50%.
I don't know why players are asking a nerf to lifesteal or endless consumption. You are not solving the problem and hindering solo ability in mod 10+ content for newer characters. Healing depression has not been adjusted and also affects lifesteal and boons.
In our current premade-vs-premade format where piercing damage isn't affected by tenacity, very little deaths occur with one support class. Once you add another faithful cleric or healadin, no ones dies. This will be an extreme problem if the current changes go live.
I play an OP and GF in pvp, the only class that really abuses lifesteal is a combat HR. Piercing damage will respect tenacity so combats have less self healing, yet players are still asking for nerfs to Endless Consumption. How many times have we seen over-nerfs in MMOs? This is obviously one of them and it is going to hurt everyone.
With these changes to damage, raising healing depression gives more value to damage, no matter how small. As of right now, TRs need to one-shot because of immortal faithful DCs with high hp standing in empowered Astral Shield, and high-hp healadins with Valhalla sets running around with Bond of Virtue, Aura of Truth, and Shield of Faith. Combat HRs were needed because of paladins and clerics in general and immortal TRs. All other classes, except GFs and TRs, were left to struggle for themselves.
The current formula: "Armor Penetration is 60% less effective. (I like how this was raised. At first I thought 50% was too high.) Critical Severity is 40% less effective. Healing is 50% less effective. Players take 40% less damage."
The new proposed formula: "Armor Penetration is 60% less effective. Critical Severity is 50% less effective. Healing is 90% less effective. (This needs to be done to adjust the pace accordingly) Players take 50% less damage."
Given enough time, players should be dying in pvp, but they shouldn't be immortal or be dying within seconds. Adjusting healing depression higher will balance the pace in pvp. I have pvp'ed in World of Warcraft, Age of Conan, and Warhammer Online and other MMOs. So far, World of Warcraft wins with the pacing, but Tera and BDO look promising. To this day, I still wait for MMO pvp to have the pacing balanced like fighting games. That is why I enjoy watching people fight in Injustice 2:
1) No one is getting killed quick because of proper damage and HP pools. 2) Damage outpaces healing tools. 3) You can't combo/control someone forever, and there are tools to break them. (I'm looking at you smoke bomb and courage breaker) 4) A player wins mostly by skill and by punishing the opposing player's mistakes.
This is what we should aim for. Healing tools and support classes should just be buying time for players, not keeping the entire team unkillable.
As a side note, healing depression may need to apply to all healing tools. I am very open to surgical adjustments to the global tenacity formula.
No, the tankiness that reknowned gwf nerfers are speaking of is Negation, Trans. Feytouched and Tenacity mixed with Countless Scars. The devs need to not listen to people who are just biased against GWF and want an easy kill. GWF is fine, it just needs a dodge. Perhaps Negation and Feytouched need work, which is my guess. Those who complain the most about GWF just have no clue how to fight against them. They want SW to be able to facetank and burst down a GWF without any skill involved.
These are other factors as well, but self healing via lifesteal is a major problem in PVP. I would say that if you removed Negation,Fey and Countless Scars it would render GWF uselss.
remember mod 4-5 GWF? thats pretty much where we would be at... Nobody would want them in PVP. Mod 6 brought Negation rework, countless scars, and fey... And those also arent exclusive to GWF either. Only Countless Scars is.
I do agree Fey is bugged. I dont know all teh details but I have seen it reduce enemy damage more than its supposed to, ive seen it increase my damage more than its supposed to, ive seen it only apply 1 of the procs (debuff or just buff myself) etc. Something about it is very very buggy. Frankly, I would be fine if this was modified a bit.
Same with negation. Negation is one of the biggest issues that causes ARP/DR balancing to be a problem. If you balance ARP/DR ratios to work without negation (where they should be) then all seems fine until someone throws on negation and gets an extra 30% DR. If you balance it INCLUDING negation, then DR for every non negation user is essentially worthless because its so easy to counter.
I would probably suggest a negation rework as well to reduce INC damage (rather than DR) the same thing I would look at doing for Sprint.
While these contribute to GWF tankiness, the #1 issue that is DRASTICALLY over performing is self healing via lifesteal + endless consumption. I would adjust this FIRST and then re-assess. With HALF the lifesteal, thats a considerable amount of less self healing. That might bring GWFs down in "tankiness".
After that, possible a negation and fey adjustment. Those too would impact GWF.
But again - this is case and point of the bad design of the class itself. Its basically artificially "boosted" by all these other over powered things (lifesteal + endless + negation + fey) and remove that stuff and its a worthless class for PVP.
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kalina311Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 2,082Arc User
"The GWF has no self heal mechanics like other classes (HR/CW just to name 2) so the GWF is EXTREMELY reliant on high Lifesteal % + Endless Consumption (which doubles your lifesteal)."
cw .....? selfhealing mechanic ....( its not universal to all trees either its a capstone) what exacly is a healing mechanic anyways ...healing that is not an encounter power ..or a daily .. Most classes have some extreme healing or path/paragon that has is .. a gf gfw and a cw dont (very situational)
what is this cw selfheal mechanic you speak of ? Its a 1 in 3 chance to proc chaotic growth provding only a renagde cw has healing if they proc the right capstone (chaotic growth fury or nexus )if not long cool down ....like you said in other examples all the stars have to align perfectly for this to happen that being said its very very unreliable so most cws rely on high lifesteal as well
provided you are even that spec and then proc the capstone then it only heals for a paltry amount anyways with todays healthpools
a hr on the other has wild medicine that more spec can use and it heals for waaaaay more and they are heavily immune to damage when using it and also a hr broken weapon offhand set/ power bonus that heals for more even if you dont slot the corresponding feat (Indont think they fixed that hr bugged source of double dip exploit healing yet SHHHhh )
The problem with "damage" is that, to reach those amounts, the class needs "some" stacks from certain feat... which: A: last for 4 secs. B: The chances of getting them are 25%... which would make the target player a bad one if he stays for that much time on the GWF's range... C: The actual "healin" system. The survivality of almost all other classes (TRs' 'deflection and CC, GFs' Shield, OPs' Sanctuary... etc)
On THEORY, you're right. In game, the theory is not viable.
Just because other classes have over-performing mechanics doesn't mean your class is problematic. Don't want to turn it into an endless debate so I'll just leave it at that.
Most classes have some extreme healing or path/paragon that has is .. a gf gfw and a cw dont (very situational)
Sorry, then, what "Fighter's recovery" daily is for?
I am not the one claiming the gwf has no sources (mechanics for healing @ayroux is.) .and i attempted to clarify/ ask what a healing mechanic constitutes and if its definition includes or excludes dailies
so if we are excluding dailies then are there gwf " healing mechanics" then ? and are cw or hr healing mechanics better/ worse if so
What will be GF role in domination once it gets a rework then? Node holding only? if self-healing across the board doesn't get tonned down to reasonable levels, a (by then) nerfed GF and other classes (SW and OP) won't be able to kill anyone but pugs or poorly built/horribly underpowered toons.
Like others have pointed out, you really need to take a look at things like wild medicine (blatantly overperforming) and in general feats/boons/mechanics that give classes (combat HR and TR are good examples with players of the latter being pretty much unkillable) a survability that's off the charts. If tanks shouldn't dps then why do you agree with dps classes tanking? o.O
Do you have any plans for AS? whenever you tone down GF damage, no class in the game will be able to kill a AS spamming DC. As it stands, AS is a big middle finger for most classes and effectively renders some of them (SW worst case by far) unable to do anything. Besides, what do you think you'll do if Gift if faith keeps being way too much to cut through even with crits now doing more damage?
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josiahiyonMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 396Arc User
Since crit becomes a thing again I have a very important ask of you.
Can you please fix the stronghold group stats boon? Its working in a very weird way that makes no sense at all.
Lets say you are a DC in a party of 5 but only you as a DC wants to use that group stats. You have to convince everyone else in the party to select the boon once you enter PvP/dungeon so the full boon activates for you, then the rest have to switch boon again to whatever they want to use for their classes. And once you die, you will loose the all the stats except the first one.
The way this is working is just very bad and its making the whole boon kinda useless. I mean you cant force people you dont even know or dont even have the boon, so most of the time you are stuck with only the first stats and that is ofc very unfair when others have like 8k power/armpen and you are stuck with 2500 deflect.
It should work like this:
If you are solo you should get 1/5 of each stats. If you are in a party of 5, then you should get 5/5 of each stats. And it shouldnt matter if youre the only one picking it because lets face it, you will never have a full party or even half a party that wants or have that boon.
Very few currently use it, suggesting something is wrong
current bug #1: when you die, you lose the group stat buff. Have to get your whole party together again and swap on / off the boon to get the full buff. This is very bad in pvp.
current bug #2: if a party of 5 picks group stat such that you get the full buff, you keep that full buff (until death / instance change) even if the other 4 switch to another boon
Alternative config #1: Strip the concept that others in group have to use the boon. Instead, provide EACH stat at 480 per player in party to the players equipping the boon (at max Rank 10). If 1 person uses the R10 Group stat boon in solo play, they would get 480 of each stat. If 1 person uses the R10 group stat in a party of 2, they would get 960 of each stat. If 1 person uses the R10 group stat in a party of 5, they would get 2400 of each stat. This makes it a good option for solo q play or for play with mixed guilds (not all have group stat boon).
Alternative config #2: Make it work like mastercraft weapons. Party buff equal to 480 for each of the 5 stats per player in party with group stat equipped. If 1 person uses the R10 group stat, the entire party of 5 gets 480 of all 5 stats. If 2 people use the R10 group stat, the entire party of 5 gets 960 of all 5 stats.
Since crit becomes a thing again I have a very important ask of you.
Can you please fix the stronghold group stats boon? Its working in a very weird way that makes no sense at all.
Lets say you are a DC in a party of 5 but only you as a DC wants to use that group stats. You have to convince everyone else in the party to select the boon once you enter PvP/dungeon so the full boon activates for you, then the rest have to switch boon again to whatever they want to use for their classes. And once you die, you will loose the all the stats except the first one.
The way this is working is just very bad and its making the whole boon kinda useless. I mean you cant force people you dont even know or dont even have the boon, so most of the time you are stuck with only the first stats and that is ofc very unfair when others have like 8k power/armpen and you are stuck with 2500 deflect.
It should work like this:
If you are solo you should get 1/5 of each stats. If you are in a party of 5, then you should get 5/5 of each stats. And it shouldnt matter if youre the only one picking it because lets face it, you will never have a full party or even half a party that wants or have that boon.
Very few currently use it, suggesting something is wrong
current bug #1: when you die, you lose the group stat buff. Have to get your whole party together again and swap on / off the boon to get the full buff. This is very bad in pvp.
current bug #2: if a party of 5 picks group stat such that you get the full buff, you keep that full buff (until death / instance change) even if the other 4 switch to another boon
Alternative config #1: Strip the concept that others in group have to use the boon. Instead, provide EACH stat at 480 per player in party to the players equipping the boon (at max Rank 10). If 1 person uses the R10 Group stat boon in solo play, they would get 480 of each stat. If 1 person uses the R10 group stat in a party of 2, they would get 960 of each stat. If 1 person uses the R10 group stat in a party of 5, they would get 2400 of each stat. This makes it a good option for solo q play or for play with mixed guilds (not all have group stat boon).
Alternative config #2: Make it work like mastercraft weapons. Party buff equal to 480 for each of the 5 stats per player in party with group stat equipped. If 1 person uses the R10 group stat, the entire party of 5 gets 480 of all 5 stats. If 2 people use the R10 group stat, the entire party of 5 gets 960 of all 5 stats.
@rgutscheradev Please read this comment and take it very seriously because im telling you the truth.
If the gwf becomes too tanky in the future mods because of the piercing damage finally respecting tenacity and the future GF's damage very possibly getting nerfed there are a few suggestions that I could give you that would fix it VERY easily.
1. Move countless scars further into the sentinel tree so we cant get it by putting 15 points into the sentinel tree to get it. The typical build for a gwf is put points into scale agility, powerful challenge and countless scars. If you moved it people would be able to stack more power versus us and it would make us less tanky. 2. Possibly bring down the effectiveness of endless consumption. Right now it makes our lifesteal a bit too effective. It was fine before but since you are weakening our threats I can see that it will probably need a nerf. 3. Everfrost shirt and pants are too dominate in PVP. 4. Negations are very strong at the moment. Probably border-line game breaking in terms of balance. My solution is to change it completely. I would suggest that you make it 15% less incoming damage (with no other bonuses) at transcendent instead of 30% dr like it is right now. This way high power builds would still be very good versus a negation. It wouldn't make it useless at all but it would certainly make a bit worse.
Gwfs don't really need a dodge I think we just need more sprint and make some kind of "miss chance" you know since we are running so fast it would probably be pretty hard to hit us that or make it like "You take 20% less damage while running" if that would be easier to implement I'm not sure.
I like what you what to do with the guardian fighter a lot. Here is how I personally think balance should be I might be wrong but its just my opinion. Pallies should tank really well, do almost no damage and have very little control. Guardian fighters should be able to tank good, have great control abilities to help teammates avoid getting hit/ set things up and do okay damage. And lastly GWF's shouldn't be able to tank, only have dailies thank apply control and do massive damage. This way we would have to either be great at setting ourselves up and know our enemies well or get a teammate to help us out.
Thank you very much for staying in contact with us @rgutscheradev I know that I probably speak for everyone here saying we appreciate the hard work.
Find me in game if you want and send me a domination/ gaunt invite. If you are good and im not busy ill play with you. Im not an elitist ill play with almost anyone.
GWF has an off-tank path, it has to be able to tank. AND, yes we need a dodge, we are a melee striker/off-tank class that has no dodge/block and no good way to hold aggro, so broken. If it is not supposed to tank, remove the Sentinel path from the class.
Im fine if they "remove" the sentinel tree all together but they would have to give instigator powerful challenge. That feat is a main stay for our class.
Find me in game if you want and send me a domination/ gaunt invite. If you are good and im not busy ill play with you. Im not an elitist ill play with almost anyone.
What are you all talking about. Having endless consumption, Fey Touched, Negation etc doesn't help me against Saber. )
In anycase, maybe I missed it, but it seems that any changes to tenacity will occur sometime after mod 12. In the interim with ilvl 500 pve gear coming, is there going to be new PVP gear as well?
GWF has an off-tank path, it has to be able to tank. AND, yes we need a dodge, we are a melee striker/off-tank class that has no dodge/block and no good way to hold aggro, so broken. If it is not supposed to tank, remove the Sentinel path from the class.
Im fine if they "remove" the sentinel tree all together but they would have to give instigator powerful challenge. That feat is a main stay for our class.
Na, marking it is supposed to be for tanking. No tank path, no marks. They can make GWF a pure striker and up the damage, removing all defenses except Lifesteal and speed.
interesting idea about the mark thats certainly one way to get around it and one I could get behind. But all defenses besides lifesteal and speed? im not so sure about that. that may be a little too far.
Find me in game if you want and send me a domination/ gaunt invite. If you are good and im not busy ill play with you. Im not an elitist ill play with almost anyone.
Faithful DCs: My suggestion to tackle the problem of "making the whole team permanently immortal" is to reduce to radius of effect of Gift of Faith. Make the radius 60', just like Bond of Virtue. But not if healing depression already makes GoF useless.
Please do not reduce this class to rubbish. More healing depression: --> results in a direct nerf to faithful DCs who will heal less to begin with and Gift of Faith is directly impacted reducing the amount healed. --> think twice before blindly reducing Astral Shield to garbage. If the Shield become significantly weaker to the extent that it does not provide decent protection, you can also consider increasing its radius of effect.
The healer-DC is already not the most exciting class to play in PvP. If they cannot provide decent healing support, you will see the small number of one of the least popular classes dwindle even more.
Faithful DCs: My suggestion to tackle the problem of "making the whole team permanently immortal" is to reduce to radius of effect of Gift of Faith. Make the radius 60', just like Bond of Virtue. But not if healing depression already makes GoF useless.
Please do not reduce this class to rubbish. More healing depression: --> results in a direct nerf to faithful DCs who will heal less to begin with and Gift of Faith is directly impacted reducing the amount healed. --> think twice before blindly reducing Astral Shield to garbage. If the Shield become significantly weaker to the extent that it does not provide decent protection, you can also consider increasing its radius of effect.
The healer-DC is already not the most exciting class to play in PvP. If they cannot provide decent healing support, you will see the small number of one of the least popular classes dwindle even more.
Ok, I really rather stay off the GWF topic as it's not relevant for right now, but there are points here that don't need to be conflicting.
It sounds to me @aryoux is saying, more simply put, that GWF just needs a more reliable mechanic than stacking buffs. And where it should land is about the same in damage and tankiness like it is now? So then, in this meta it's neither too strong nor too weak. It's balanced but just needs to be more reliable.
Same others point out about sprint. If it has to be a dodge, then it has to consume a fixed amount of stamina like a dodge, otherwise it's going to be infinite like GF shield is. So I guess we're talking CW/DC/TR dodges. TR is the only melee with that dodge and makes it really hard to do melee. You either dodge short or dodge far, have to turn back around trying to catch someone. That's why we have Courage Breaker... So if you have true dodge maybe you need CB too? For CW/DC point is moot because they are ranged. That leaves HR half-dodge.. which isn't very nice to be honest.
Fact is GWF has always been second to best. Back when TR were OP.. and now it's GF. Lots of GWF always saying they're too weak compared to the MOST OP class. Truth is you were just always average. Asking for more reliable mechanics is FAIR. Demanding to be buff to GF-levels of BS is NOT.
Ok, I really rather stay off the GWF topic as it's not relevant for right now, but there are points here that don't need to be conflicting.
It sounds to me @aryoux is saying, more simply put, that GWF just needs a more reliable mechanic than stacking buffs. And where it should land is about the same in damage and tankiness like it is now? So then, in this meta it's neither too strong nor too weak. It's balanced but just needs to be more reliable.
Same others point out about sprint. If it has to be a dodge, then it has to consume a fixed amount of stamina like a dodge, otherwise it's going to be infinite like GF shield is. So I guess we're talking CW/DC/TR dodges. TR is the only melee with that dodge and makes it really hard to do melee. You either dodge short or dodge far, have to turn back around trying to catch someone. That's why we have Courage Breaker... So if you have true dodge maybe you need CB too? For CW/DC point is moot because they are ranged. That leaves HR half-dodge.. which isn't very nice to be honest.
Fact is GWF has always been second to best. Back when TR were OP.. and now it's GF. Lots of GWF always saying they're too weak compared to the MOST OP class. Truth is you were just always average. Asking for more reliable mechanics is FAIR. Demanding to be buff to GF-levels of BS is NOT.
Correct. I too dont want this to turn into a GWF thread, and would rather focus on over-arcing things like Endless Consumption change, The Group Stat SH Boon being reworked so it isnt so wonky and unreliable (even if all 5 people use it). Even more so want to focus on these major changes such as "what are the right amounts of tenacity DR %, crit resist %, etc." However going ALL the way back to module 3, the GWF and his "stacking" has ALWAYS been a major source of imbalance. The class is either too strong, or not strong enough and a LARGE part of this relies on the QA and DEVs ability to balance the class - which in the words of IcyDrake "I dont think the DEVs nor QA team posses the skills or knowledge to truly balance the class" (paraphrasing).
This is NOT a putdown on the QA team nor the DEVs, because at the low to mid tier of "skill" the GWF is not being counter-played like it can at the high tier skill of PVP. This is primarily due to Focused Destroyer only having 25% chance on hit (not DOTs) and only lasting 4 seconds.
In order for the QA/DEV teams testing to be relevant across ALL levels of play, these stacks need to be adjusted upwards. Something MORE akin to "Weapon Master" which has 100% chance to gain and lasts 5-6 seconds. The duration and/or the chance to gain needs to be adjusted. Period. Overall, this will not increase the GWFs maximum damage, but will create a more normalized experience across all "skill levels". This will make the QA team and DEV teams balance efforts MUCH easier with the class in the future.
The issue with GWF and sprint changing to a "dodge" is unlike those other classes, GWF doesnt have much of a gap closer (Threat Rush is rubberbandy and not reliable and close range w/ stacks) and so GWFs NEED sprint in order to close the gap. An HR style "dodge" would be the only one that would "kinda" work, but as you said, its not very nice to be honest and this also NERFS one of the GWFs strengths - Mobility.
The TLDR is what you have said. We are not asking for "buffs" we are asking for a more "fair" mechanic, not only for a small QOL increase, but ALSO to alleviate DEV/QA team in their efforts to balance the class today, and in the future.
-- PVP Rogue, --[----- "Your friendly neighborhood spawn of Satan." -----]-- ---------------------------------------------------------------- Main Character: Hurricane Marigolds (Rogue WK & Assassin) Ingame Handle: trgluestickz Discord Name: Hurricane🌀Marigolds#2563 Guilds: She Looked LVL 18 & Essence of Aggression Alliances: Imperium & Order of the Silent Shroud Platform: PC
Some people have been bringing up conserns with all que types appearing on the same leaderboard. This makes the leaderboard much less accurate and easy to scew the results of. Some PVP types you naturally will get fewer kills and caps in and others you will get more. People could also do the private que with an accomplice to artificially inflate their score.
I would like to sugest that each pvp type has a seperate scoreboard so you can see exactly where a player's score is comming from. That should help keep the results accurate and harder to scew.
-- PVP Rogue, --[----- "Your friendly neighborhood spawn of Satan." -----]-- ---------------------------------------------------------------- Main Character: Hurricane Marigolds (Rogue WK & Assassin) Ingame Handle: trgluestickz Discord Name: Hurricane🌀Marigolds#2563 Guilds: She Looked LVL 18 & Essence of Aggression Alliances: Imperium & Order of the Silent Shroud Platform: PC
> @rgutscheradev said: > Hello all, and thanks for all the feedback! > > I wanted to let everyone know where things stand now. > > As I mentioned before, the plan was to remove Tenacity and replace it with a global PvP buff that everyone gets.>
Does this mean pvp gear will be useless, or will it be getting updated as well?
I agree that there is way too much self healing available in PVP right now. Builds that deal their damage with a lot of smaller attacks and DOTs simply cannot keep up with builds that favor burst damage and oneshotting. This is in large part due to how much self healing there is in PVP. Tackle the issues with self healing in PVP, and it will be much easier to increase build variety and balance PVP.
What I am unsure of is whether or not the 50% healing depression for PVP itself needs to be increased. The other option is to rework or remove most of the self heals in PVP. The best way to find out which of these options we should go with is to have both options tested via preview server. @rgutscheradev , these ideas should be on your list of things to add to the preview server in the future.
The is one other important thing I want to bring up; with the self healing toned down, people will start switching to builds with more deflect to compensate. There is also too much deflect in PVP right now and this needs to be addressed. Otherwise, you will just trade one issue for another similar one post self heal nerf. 80% through over 100% deflection chance is a thing and good luck to anyone trying to kill someone in PVP with that even if their deflect severity is 50%. With that in mind, here is my suggestion for deflect:
Consider giving deflection a hard cap at around 70% - 75% or a really sharp diminishing return that makes it not worth stacking beyond that point. I can't see a good reason why 80%+ deflection chance should be allowed in PVP. I don't think you will see as many of the issues associated with a high deflect severity if deflection chance cannot be stacked past 70% and self healing gets toned down.
Do what so many PVPers have been asking for and disable all potions/consumable buffs in PVP. One source of extra deflect severity and deflection chance are pots so the removal of pots from PVP would help with the deflect problem on top of the numerous other benefits to removing pots.
Further adjustments to deflection severity such as class adjustments to base severity should also be considered but I would try testing my above changes first to see if its needed.
Edit: I finished reading this thread and saw the comment where @rgutscheradev said they plan to limit consumable buffs to 1 per category. I would still prefer all consumable buffs to be disabled in PVP since the 1 per category method will mean the foehammer's favor elixir will still be useable in PVP. But this is still a pretty exelent change and + for implementing this.
Post edited by trgluestickz on
-- PVP Rogue, --[----- "Your friendly neighborhood spawn of Satan." -----]-- ---------------------------------------------------------------- Main Character: Hurricane Marigolds (Rogue WK & Assassin) Ingame Handle: trgluestickz Discord Name: Hurricane🌀Marigolds#2563 Guilds: She Looked LVL 18 & Essence of Aggression Alliances: Imperium & Order of the Silent Shroud Platform: PC
first thing please make sure that were are keeping PVE separate from PVP, I want t make sure nothing your doing is going to effect PVE players, you should make companions work inside PVP as well to make it more interesting lol, mess with PVP al you want lol that's were 90% of the crying comes from anyhow, I haven't PVPed really in like 2 years because of how unbalanced that is, last time im pvped was with paladin to exzact revenge on the whole pvp realm because Paladins were OP asf lol
Moderator removed mild flaming.
Companion bonuses should be *removed* entirely from all PVP modes. Their presence is one of the reasons why Siege Stronghold PVP is all but unplayable.
I agree on this with the possible exception of open world PVP. Companions and/or their active bonuses should not be active in any kind of PVP that you can que for.
-- PVP Rogue, --[----- "Your friendly neighborhood spawn of Satan." -----]-- ---------------------------------------------------------------- Main Character: Hurricane Marigolds (Rogue WK & Assassin) Ingame Handle: trgluestickz Discord Name: Hurricane🌀Marigolds#2563 Guilds: She Looked LVL 18 & Essence of Aggression Alliances: Imperium & Order of the Silent Shroud Platform: PC
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treesclimberMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,161Arc User
edited July 2017
The big question: What is going to happen to PVP stuff ?(everything with tenacity).
The big question: What is going to happen to PVP stuff ?(everything with tenacity).
Probably the same thing that happened to the old knights captain and other armor. If I had to guess they would just do the same thing and rip off all the bonuses and the tenacity component off the armor when they migrate the tenacity to your character instead.
Find me in game if you want and send me a domination/ gaunt invite. If you are good and im not busy ill play with you. Im not an elitist ill play with almost anyone.
Comments
Everyone needs to give the devs a break and let them focus on the tenacity formula. Individual class changes needs to wait until the tenacity formula is polished out so we can analyze class performances post changes.
Currently, pvp has extremes of everything: damage/piercing, crowd control, and healing. So far, damage and crowd control has been addressed from a global perspective, and the tenacity changes is helping alleviate equally geared players from getting one-shotted/one-rotated. Now healing needs to be addressed.
With these changes to CC and damage, the survivability of players is going to be too high with the currently healing depression at 50%.
I don't know why players are asking a nerf to lifesteal or endless consumption. You are not solving the problem and hindering solo ability in mod 10+ content for newer characters. Healing depression has not been adjusted and also affects lifesteal and boons.
In our current premade-vs-premade format where piercing damage isn't affected by tenacity, very little deaths occur with one support class. Once you add another faithful cleric or healadin, no ones dies. This will be an extreme problem if the current changes go live.
I play an OP and GF in pvp, the only class that really abuses lifesteal is a combat HR. Piercing damage will respect tenacity so combats have less self healing, yet players are still asking for nerfs to Endless Consumption. How many times have we seen over-nerfs in MMOs? This is obviously one of them and it is going to hurt everyone.
With these changes to damage, raising healing depression gives more value to damage, no matter how small. As of right now, TRs need to one-shot because of immortal faithful DCs with high hp standing in empowered Astral Shield, and high-hp healadins with Valhalla sets running around with Bond of Virtue, Aura of Truth, and Shield of Faith. Combat HRs were needed because of paladins and clerics in general and immortal TRs. All other classes, except GFs and TRs, were left to struggle for themselves.
The current formula:
"Armor Penetration is 60% less effective. (I like how this was raised. At first I thought 50% was too high.)
Critical Severity is 40% less effective.
Healing is 50% less effective.
Players take 40% less damage."
The new proposed formula:
"Armor Penetration is 60% less effective.
Critical Severity is 50% less effective.
Healing is 90% less effective. (This needs to be done to adjust the pace accordingly)
Players take 50% less damage."
Given enough time, players should be dying in pvp, but they shouldn't be immortal or be dying within seconds. Adjusting healing depression higher will balance the pace in pvp. I have pvp'ed in World of Warcraft, Age of Conan, and Warhammer Online and other MMOs. So far, World of Warcraft wins with the pacing, but Tera and BDO look promising. To this day, I still wait for MMO pvp to have the pacing balanced like fighting games. That is why I enjoy watching people fight in Injustice 2:
1) No one is getting killed quick because of proper damage and HP pools.
2) Damage outpaces healing tools.
3) You can't combo/control someone forever, and there are tools to break them. (I'm looking at you smoke bomb and courage breaker)
4) A player wins mostly by skill and by punishing the opposing player's mistakes.
This is what we should aim for. Healing tools and support classes should just be buying time for players, not keeping the entire team unkillable.
As a side note, healing depression may need to apply to all healing tools. I am very open to surgical adjustments to the global tenacity formula.
remember mod 4-5 GWF? thats pretty much where we would be at... Nobody would want them in PVP. Mod 6 brought Negation rework, countless scars, and fey... And those also arent exclusive to GWF either. Only Countless Scars is.
I do agree Fey is bugged. I dont know all teh details but I have seen it reduce enemy damage more than its supposed to, ive seen it increase my damage more than its supposed to, ive seen it only apply 1 of the procs (debuff or just buff myself) etc. Something about it is very very buggy. Frankly, I would be fine if this was modified a bit.
Same with negation. Negation is one of the biggest issues that causes ARP/DR balancing to be a problem. If you balance ARP/DR ratios to work without negation (where they should be) then all seems fine until someone throws on negation and gets an extra 30% DR. If you balance it INCLUDING negation, then DR for every non negation user is essentially worthless because its so easy to counter.
I would probably suggest a negation rework as well to reduce INC damage (rather than DR) the same thing I would look at doing for Sprint.
While these contribute to GWF tankiness, the #1 issue that is DRASTICALLY over performing is self healing via lifesteal + endless consumption. I would adjust this FIRST and then re-assess. With HALF the lifesteal, thats a considerable amount of less self healing. That might bring GWFs down in "tankiness".
After that, possible a negation and fey adjustment. Those too would impact GWF.
But again - this is case and point of the bad design of the class itself. Its basically artificially "boosted" by all these other over powered things (lifesteal + endless + negation + fey) and remove that stuff and its a worthless class for PVP.
"The GWF has no self heal mechanics like other classes (HR/CW just to name 2) so the GWF is EXTREMELY reliant on high Lifesteal % + Endless Consumption (which doubles your lifesteal)."
cw .....? selfhealing mechanic ....( its not universal to all trees either its a capstone)
what exacly is a healing mechanic anyways ...healing that is not an encounter power ..or a daily ..
Most classes have some extreme healing or path/paragon that has is .. a gf gfw and a cw dont (very situational)
what is this cw selfheal mechanic you speak of ? Its a 1 in 3 chance to proc chaotic growth provding
only a renagde cw has healing if they proc the right capstone (chaotic growth fury or nexus )if not long cool down ....like you said in other examples all the stars have to align perfectly for this to happen that being said its very very unreliable so most cws rely on high lifesteal as well
provided you are even that spec and then proc the capstone then it only heals for a paltry amount anyways with todays healthpools
a hr on the other has wild medicine that more spec can use and it heals for waaaaay more and they are heavily immune to damage when using it
and also a hr broken weapon offhand set/ power bonus that heals for more even if you dont slot the corresponding feat (Indont think they fixed that hr bugged source of double dip exploit healing yet SHHHhh )
Mod 12.5 PvP Power/Crit/Arp Optimization
Youtube channel (PvE/PvP)
.and i attempted to clarify/ ask what a healing mechanic constitutes and if its definition includes or excludes dailies
so if we are excluding dailies then are there gwf " healing mechanics" then ?
and are cw or hr healing mechanics better/ worse if so
What will be GF role in domination once it gets a rework then? Node holding only? if self-healing across the board doesn't get tonned down to reasonable levels, a (by then) nerfed GF and other classes (SW and OP) won't be able to kill anyone but pugs or poorly built/horribly underpowered toons.
Like others have pointed out, you really need to take a look at things like wild medicine (blatantly overperforming) and in general feats/boons/mechanics that give classes (combat HR and TR are good examples with players of the latter being pretty much unkillable) a survability that's off the charts. If tanks shouldn't dps then why do you agree with dps classes tanking? o.O
Do you have any plans for AS? whenever you tone down GF damage, no class in the game will be able to kill a AS spamming DC. As it stands, AS is a big middle finger for most classes and effectively renders some of them (SW worst case by far) unable to do anything. Besides, what do you think you'll do if Gift if faith keeps being way too much to cut through even with crits now doing more damage?
Iyon the Dark
▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ ▇ █ Gankdalf The Icehole █ ▇ ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Please read this comment and take it very seriously because im telling you the truth.
If the gwf becomes too tanky in the future mods because of the piercing damage finally respecting tenacity and the future GF's damage very possibly getting nerfed there are a few suggestions that I could give you that would fix it VERY easily.
1. Move countless scars further into the sentinel tree so we cant get it by putting 15 points into the sentinel tree to get it. The typical build for a gwf is put points into scale agility, powerful challenge and countless scars. If you moved it people would be able to stack more power versus us and it would make us less tanky.
2. Possibly bring down the effectiveness of endless consumption. Right now it makes our lifesteal a bit too effective. It was fine before but since you are weakening our threats I can see that it will probably need a nerf.
3. Everfrost shirt and pants are too dominate in PVP.
4. Negations are very strong at the moment. Probably border-line game breaking in terms of balance. My solution is to change it completely. I would suggest that you make it 15% less incoming damage (with no other bonuses) at transcendent instead of 30% dr like it is right now. This way high power builds would still be very good versus a negation. It wouldn't make it useless at all but it would certainly make a bit worse.
Gwfs don't really need a dodge I think we just need more sprint and make some kind of "miss chance" you know since we are running so fast it would probably be pretty hard to hit us that or make it like "You take 20% less damage while running" if that would be easier to implement I'm not sure.
I like what you what to do with the guardian fighter a lot. Here is how I personally think balance should be I might be wrong but its just my opinion. Pallies should tank really well, do almost no damage and have very little control. Guardian fighters should be able to tank good, have great control abilities to help teammates avoid getting hit/ set things up and do okay damage. And lastly GWF's shouldn't be able to tank, only have dailies thank apply control and do massive damage. This way we would have to either be great at setting ourselves up and know our enemies well or get a teammate to help us out.
Thank you very much for staying in contact with us @rgutscheradev I know that I probably speak for everyone here saying we appreciate the hard work.
In anycase, maybe I missed it, but it seems that any changes to tenacity will occur sometime after mod 12. In the interim with ilvl 500 pve gear coming, is there going to be new PVP gear as well?
Please do not reduce this class to rubbish. More healing depression:
--> results in a direct nerf to faithful DCs who will heal less to begin with and Gift of Faith is directly impacted reducing the amount healed.
--> think twice before blindly reducing Astral Shield to garbage. If the Shield become significantly weaker to the extent that it does not provide decent protection, you can also consider increasing its radius of effect.
The healer-DC is already not the most exciting class to play in PvP. If they cannot provide decent healing support, you will see the small number of one of the least popular classes dwindle even more.
@rgutscheradev
Aelan Icebleed (CW)
It sounds to me @aryoux is saying, more simply put, that GWF just needs a more reliable mechanic than stacking buffs. And where it should land is about the same in damage and tankiness like it is now? So then, in this meta it's neither too strong nor too weak. It's balanced but just needs to be more reliable.
Same others point out about sprint. If it has to be a dodge, then it has to consume a fixed amount of stamina like a dodge, otherwise it's going to be infinite like GF shield is. So I guess we're talking CW/DC/TR dodges. TR is the only melee with that dodge and makes it really hard to do melee. You either dodge short or dodge far, have to turn back around trying to catch someone. That's why we have Courage Breaker... So if you have true dodge maybe you need CB too? For CW/DC point is moot because they are ranged. That leaves HR half-dodge.. which isn't very nice to be honest.
Fact is GWF has always been second to best. Back when TR were OP.. and now it's GF. Lots of GWF always saying they're too weak compared to the MOST OP class. Truth is you were just always average. Asking for more reliable mechanics is FAIR. Demanding to be buff to GF-levels of BS is NOT.
This is NOT a putdown on the QA team nor the DEVs, because at the low to mid tier of "skill" the GWF is not being counter-played like it can at the high tier skill of PVP. This is primarily due to Focused Destroyer only having 25% chance on hit (not DOTs) and only lasting 4 seconds.
In order for the QA/DEV teams testing to be relevant across ALL levels of play, these stacks need to be adjusted upwards. Something MORE akin to "Weapon Master" which has 100% chance to gain and lasts 5-6 seconds. The duration and/or the chance to gain needs to be adjusted. Period. Overall, this will not increase the GWFs maximum damage, but will create a more normalized experience across all "skill levels". This will make the QA team and DEV teams balance efforts MUCH easier with the class in the future.
The issue with GWF and sprint changing to a "dodge" is unlike those other classes, GWF doesnt have much of a gap closer (Threat Rush is rubberbandy and not reliable and close range w/ stacks) and so GWFs NEED sprint in order to close the gap. An HR style "dodge" would be the only one that would "kinda" work, but as you said, its not very nice to be honest and this also NERFS one of the GWFs strengths - Mobility.
The TLDR is what you have said. We are not asking for "buffs" we are asking for a more "fair" mechanic, not only for a small QOL increase, but ALSO to alleviate DEV/QA team in their efforts to balance the class today, and in the future.
PVP Rogue,
--[----- "Your friendly neighborhood spawn of Satan." -----]--
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Main Character: Hurricane Marigolds (Rogue WK & Assassin)
Ingame Handle: trgluestickz
Discord Name: Hurricane🌀Marigolds#2563
Guilds: She Looked LVL 18 & Essence of Aggression
Alliances: Imperium & Order of the Silent Shroud
Platform: PC
Some people have been bringing up conserns with all que types appearing on the same leaderboard. This makes the leaderboard much less accurate and easy to scew the results of. Some PVP types you naturally will get fewer kills and caps in and others you will get more. People could also do the private que with an accomplice to artificially inflate their score.
I would like to sugest that each pvp type has a seperate scoreboard so you can see exactly where a player's score is comming from. That should help keep the results accurate and harder to scew.
PVP Rogue,
--[----- "Your friendly neighborhood spawn of Satan." -----]--
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Main Character: Hurricane Marigolds (Rogue WK & Assassin)
Ingame Handle: trgluestickz
Discord Name: Hurricane🌀Marigolds#2563
Guilds: She Looked LVL 18 & Essence of Aggression
Alliances: Imperium & Order of the Silent Shroud
Platform: PC
> Hello all, and thanks for all the feedback!
>
> I wanted to let everyone know where things stand now.
>
> As I mentioned before, the plan was to remove Tenacity and replace it with a global PvP buff that everyone gets.>
Does this mean pvp gear will be useless, or will it be getting updated as well?
Builds that deal their damage with a lot of smaller attacks and DOTs simply cannot keep up with builds that favor burst damage and oneshotting. This is in large part due to how much self healing there is in PVP.
Tackle the issues with self healing in PVP, and it will be much easier to increase build variety and balance PVP.
What I am unsure of is whether or not the 50% healing depression for PVP itself needs to be increased.
The other option is to rework or remove most of the self heals in PVP.
The best way to find out which of these options we should go with is to have both options tested via preview server.
@rgutscheradev , these ideas should be on your list of things to add to the preview server in the future.
The is one other important thing I want to bring up; with the self healing toned down, people will start switching to builds with more deflect to compensate. There is also too much deflect in PVP right now and this needs to be addressed. Otherwise, you will just trade one issue for another similar one post self heal nerf.
80% through over 100% deflection chance is a thing and good luck to anyone trying to kill someone in PVP with that even if their deflect severity is 50%.
With that in mind, here is my suggestion for deflect:
Consider giving deflection a hard cap at around 70% - 75% or a really sharp diminishing return that makes it not worth stacking beyond that point. I can't see a good reason why 80%+ deflection chance should be allowed in PVP.
I don't think you will see as many of the issues associated with a high deflect severity if deflection chance cannot be stacked past 70% and self healing gets toned down.
Do what so many PVPers have been asking for and disable all potions/consumable buffs in PVP. One source of extra deflect severity and deflection chance are pots so the removal of pots from PVP would help with the deflect problem on top of the numerous other benefits to removing pots.
Further adjustments to deflection severity such as class adjustments to base severity should also be considered but I would try testing my above changes first to see if its needed.
Edit:
I finished reading this thread and saw the comment where @rgutscheradev said they plan to limit consumable buffs to 1 per category.
I would still prefer all consumable buffs to be disabled in PVP since the 1 per category method will mean the foehammer's favor elixir will still be useable in PVP. But this is still a pretty exelent change and + for implementing this.
PVP Rogue,
--[----- "Your friendly neighborhood spawn of Satan." -----]--
----------------------------------------------------------------
Main Character: Hurricane Marigolds (Rogue WK & Assassin)
Ingame Handle: trgluestickz
Discord Name: Hurricane🌀Marigolds#2563
Guilds: She Looked LVL 18 & Essence of Aggression
Alliances: Imperium & Order of the Silent Shroud
Platform: PC
PVP Rogue,
--[----- "Your friendly neighborhood spawn of Satan." -----]--
----------------------------------------------------------------
Main Character: Hurricane Marigolds (Rogue WK & Assassin)
Ingame Handle: trgluestickz
Discord Name: Hurricane🌀Marigolds#2563
Guilds: She Looked LVL 18 & Essence of Aggression
Alliances: Imperium & Order of the Silent Shroud
Platform: PC