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New Incoming Piercing Damage Changes and Trickster Rogues

gbrlpf22gbrlpf22 Member Posts: 26 Arc User
Hello :D
i've tested Piercing Damage changes on preview with my TR and my friends (tyvm Caio Izah and Rafa :D ) and... just take a look at this :



Checking CombatLog... Shadow of Demise is now being affected by debuffs on its target, now it can scale and deal more than 50% of the dmg dealt in 6sec

So.. Is this fair? Since GWFs and GFs alrdy got this potential of dmg, doing 20 M ~~ 30 M crit dmg on IBS and Griffon's Wrath.. Why cant TRs do that too ?

And its not that usefull on mob phases and bosses with low health.. since they die before the SoD proc as u can see on 2nd boss of CN. But for the tough ones its a huge improvement, and can scale even more with the more debuffs.

Also there is a bug on SoD when 2 rogues proc it, the first who proced it will get the dmg of the second In account to the SoD dmg, and second will get only his own dmg in account. I dont know if it workd for more than 2 SoDs procs, but it still a huge bug... and with this piercing dmg change it will be even more evident and harmful, so it need to be fixed!

I'll leave the discussion there for you..

Peace :)





Mara Canà - Trickster Rogue 15k - Strawberry Yakuza
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Comments

  • santralafaxsantralafax Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 2,896 Arc User
    What are these changes? Have they been posted anywhere?
  • gbrlpf22gbrlpf22 Member Posts: 26 Arc User
    edited July 2017

    What are these changes? Have they been posted anywhere?

    According to the patch notes from preview shard ver. nw 85-20170627a-2:

    https://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter#/discussion/1232488/tomb-of-annihilation-preview-patch-notes-nw-85-20170627a-2-updated-7-7/p1

    Combat and Powers
    General

    Certain Piercing attacks that deal damage based on another attack no longer "double-dip" damage resistance against higher-level enemies.
    Example: The Hunter Ranger feat, Piercing Blades, deals an extra 50% piercing damage to an enemy.
    If an attack would normally deal 200 damage, but is reduced to 150 by an enemy's level difference, then Piercing Blades now deals 75 damage (50% of the damage dealt).
    Prior to this fix, Piercing Blades would deal around 56 damage (50% of the damage dealt, then reduced again by the level difference).
    Piercing damage powers now work as described in (most of) their tooltips: "Piercing Damage cannot be deflected and ignores armor." This means:
    Piercing damage will no longer penetrate defenses that are not armor (such as Tenacity-based defenses).
    Piercing damage will now be able to benefit from damage vulnerability debuffs on the target (such as the Lantern of Revelation debuff).
    The net effect should be to make these powers less overwhelming (but still potentially very strong) in PvP, and much more useful in PvE.

    IDK if this was intentional ... Its prety Overpowered now, but with some adjustments could be a great tool to make TRs balanced with other classes.

    Mara Canà - Trickster Rogue 15k - Strawberry Yakuza
  • hypervoreianhypervoreian Member Posts: 1,036 Arc User
    "Since GWFs and GFs alrdy got this potential of dmg, doing 20 M ~~ 30 M crit dmg on IBS and Griffon's Wrath."

    they can do that in a fully buffed party and after they have allt hier stacks on.Not simlar case with the video you provided.You are comparing apples with oranges.

    I agree that TR needs some love ,but generalizing is not the way to go...
  • gbrlpf22gbrlpf22 Member Posts: 26 Arc User

    "Since GWFs and GFs alrdy got this potential of dmg, doing 20 M ~~ 30 M crit dmg on IBS and Griffon's Wrath."

    they can do that in a fully buffed party and after they have allt hier stacks on.Not simlar case with the video you provided.You are comparing apples with oranges.

    I agree that TR needs some love ,but generalizing is not the way to go...

    Yeah i agree with u bro its pretty overpowered atm... but with some adjustments could be a great tool to make SoD balance with other classes "Burst" stuff.
    Mara Canà - Trickster Rogue 15k - Strawberry Yakuza
  • hastati96hastati96 Member Posts: 484 Arc User
    You should probably give some feedback on it on the preview thread about the changes :) Devs need to know this problem or it will end badly :/
    Nero - Palacetamol - Essence of Aggression
  • micky1p00micky1p00 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 3,542 Arc User
    What are other classes has anything to do with this ?
    What is the purpose of this thread? To ask to keep it or to ask to nerf it ?
  • gbrlpf22gbrlpf22 Member Posts: 26 Arc User
    micky1p00 said:

    What are other classes has anything to do with this ?
    What is the purpose of this thread? To ask to keep it or to ask to nerf it ?

    This is just a topic for discussion... I'm not asking for a nerf or buff, just asking the opinion of the community..,
    About the other classes.. i was just comparing the DMG...
    Mara Canà - Trickster Rogue 15k - Strawberry Yakuza
  • dmcewendmcewen Member Posts: 279 Arc User
    A bug is a bug, needs to be fixed. You can't balance classes around bugs, won't be good for the class in the long run.
    Guild: Ruthless
    Character: Vendetta
  • jaime4312#3760 jaime4312 Member Posts: 844 Arc User
    edited July 2017
    @thefabricant already reported that as a bug I think. It seems to affect SW's creeping death, too.
    Yeah as it is benefitting twice from debuffs it is a bug indeed so devs won't balance the class around that.
    Post edited by jaime4312#3760 on
  • archangelzorak01archangelzorak01 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 324 Arc User
    The buff to the damage should be fine, it will give us the chance shine vs. single target.. which is what a TR *appears* to be designed to do. The bug with multiple MI's and SoD should get some attention however, as it certainly could get out of hand with the new piercing changes.



    Neverwinter Module 6: The only MMO expansion in the history of MMO's to remove more content than it added.


  • treesclimbertreesclimber Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,161 Arc User
    There is no bug, SoD is simply benefiting from DR debuffs, i tried it against dummies and it was working fine.
    What i see here is not a problem, i see a 14k-16k experient team with bondings running a 8.4k dungeon, like the OP said, trash mobs dont even get it to activate SoD, put this team running FBI then replace the TR another full striker and compare.

  • jaime4312#3760 jaime4312 Member Posts: 844 Arc User

    There is no bug, SoD is simply benefiting from DR debuffs, i tried it against dummies and it was working fine.
    What i see here is not a problem, i see a 14k-16k experient team with bondings running a 8.4k dungeon, like the OP said, trash mobs dont even get it to activate SoD, put this team running FBI then replace the TR another full striker and compare.

    that's because you tried it against dummies LMAO ROFL OMFG the issue is with SOD double dipping from buffs SMFH
    @thefabricant stated it is double dipping from debuffs but anyway yeah 26 million + damage definitely is way too much, I think even for players of the calibre of wicked duck to do comparable hits they need to be running with a lulz good buff party, time everything perfectly and sacrifice their irl cat/dog to neverwinter gods. Joking aside yeah those hits need perfect timing and great party synergy, that video shared by the iriginal poster speaks volumes of why that bug needs to be addressed.

    I used to think the glitch should be kept as TR/SW are plagued by bugs and outdated mechanics that leave them behind other dps classes but as Sharpedge pointed out, classes shouldn't be balanced around that so double dipping from debuffs or however you call it needs to be patched asap, for now all we can do is to wait a rework soon (tm)
  • micky1p00micky1p00 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 3,542 Arc User

    There is no bug, SoD is simply benefiting from DR debuffs, i tried it against dummies and it was working fine.
    What i see here is not a problem, i see a 14k-16k experient team with bondings running a 8.4k dungeon, like the OP said, trash mobs dont even get it to activate SoD, put this team running FBI then replace the TR another full striker and compare.

    that's because you tried it against dummies LMAO ROFL OMFG the issue is with SOD double dipping from buffs SMFH
    DEBUFFS ! Not BUFFS ! Do you realize there is a very very significant difference between those 2 ?
  • gbrlpf22gbrlpf22 Member Posts: 26 Arc User
    Lets do a recap and see how SoD works and its interactions:

    The tolltip says:

    "While in Stealth, your powers now also add the Shadow of Demise effect to the target for 6 seconds. This effect is powered up by further damage you deal. Additionally, you generate Stealth 20% faster and no longer have your regeneration interrupted when taking damage.

    Shadow of Demise: When this effect ends, its target takes Piercing Damage equal to 50% of the damage dealt to its target by the Rogue. Piercing Damage cannot be deflected and ignores armor.
    This effect cannot stack.

    Says it ignores armor, means it deals full dmg independent of your armor penetration . "

    Does not say that this can not be benefited by Resistance debuffs...
    So Where's the double dip? Im only seeing a SoD hit being multiplicated by debuffs 1 time (50% of the dmg dealt in 6 secs * DR debuffs), Can someone explain that for me?

    SoD does not proc Wheel of Elements and Aura of Courage dmg as IBS and Griffons Wrath's does, so if want to compare it with SoD burst dmg u should add 30% dmg in account, it means if a GF do a well timed GW he can do 3x20M hits in less than 6 seconds, plus 30% its 78M dmg... , if a GWF do 30M hit its 39M in one click, about their at-wills they alrdy hit much harder than TRs atwills and encounters, So if i hit for 30M with SoD to do the same damage on the same time interval a GWF needs to hit for 23 M on IBS not counting aura of courage just the Wheel buff (just comparative numbers). Also we need more than a well timed button press.. we need to stack our stuff and hit the target for 6 sec without interruption to reach these big numbers...

    PPL are saying that they need a perfect timing and buffs debuffs to make this, ye its true.. but I wasnt missing much on the video.. only ITF, Aura of courage and some debuff companions, i can guess it was with 70% of the buffs/debuffs that WickedDuck and Lill Jesus run in their videos.
    Me and the other 2 DCs were BIS on preview server and we found the paladin at the last minute just to test but he was almost BIS too, but wasnt using Aura of courage idk why :(

    PLEASE Im not babyraging or even asking for a GF and GWF nerf, i just want the balance between these classes nad we cant talk about it without comparing them. (I cant talk about CWs SWs and HRs bc idk much about them ^^)

    This change is not a bug IMO, if the DEVs changed piercing dmg to be affected by resistance debuffs and its not doulbe diping and dmg is balanced with higher tier dps classes, why not keep it till they find another way to balance/rework TRs? Just let it come to the live server so more ppl can test and see if it will really break the game...

    Are you all talking about @thefabricant, can please someone link me his post or he explains how its working by himself?

    Sorry for bad english, im not a native speaker :pensive:





    Mara Canà - Trickster Rogue 15k - Strawberry Yakuza
  • treesclimbertreesclimber Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,161 Arc User
    edited July 2017

    There is no bug, SoD is simply benefiting from DR debuffs, i tried it against dummies and it was working fine.
    What i see here is not a problem, i see a 14k-16k experient team with bondings running a 8.4k dungeon, like the OP said, trash mobs dont even get it to activate SoD, put this team running FBI then replace the TR another full striker and compare.

    that's because you tried it against dummies LMAO ROFL OMFG the issue is with SOD double dipping from buffs SMFH
    How is it double dipping from either buffs of debuffs?


    Both had 3 stacks of WR applied from stealth + vicious pursuit.

    Edit: Made on a dummy polar bear, you know one of those white dummies in IWD


  • dupeksdupeks Member Posts: 1,789 Arc User
    Those of you not understanding what the double dip means:

    When SoD begins, it starts counting up damage you deal. It counts the actual damage you deal, including buffs, debuffs, and whatever else is going on at the time. Let's say that during those 6 seconds you managed to deal 100,000 damage.

    Now when SoD procs the hit, it does 100,000 piercing damage, but that piercing damage scales up with any debuffs that are currently on the enemy. Not buffs on the TR, not the TR's RI vs. enemy's DR (armor mitigation).

    So looking back, let's assume that you had 30% debuffs on the enemy during this whole time. You got to that 100,000 damage including those 30% debuffs (as well as including TR's buffs, and TR's RI vs. enemy DR).

    When the SoD proc hits, it does 130,000 piercing damage, because it's 100,000 damage but the enemy debuff gets applied on the SoD proc.

    So the double-dipping is that the debuffs helped you get to 100,000 damage, but then are applied a second time to increase that 100,000 hit.

    It will NOT show up as double-effective in ACT. It's just that the "SoD base damage" accumulates including buffs, debuffs, and RI vs DR. And then the "SoD actual damage" applied debuffs a second time when calculating the final hit. Make sense?
  • micky1p00micky1p00 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 3,542 Arc User
    edited July 2017
    1. Yes, you can say it's double dipping, not saying it's good, bad, right, or wrong, but here:

    Lets assume your lashing deals 100k, There is a debuffer in the party it debuffs to 200 effectiveness, now your lashing deals 200k damage. You proc SoD, SoD will be how much ? It will be half of the total damage, meaning:

    200k / 2 = 100k

    So far good?

    Now after changes:

    You hit with lashing, it hits for 100k, debuffed 200k, SoD procs, it procs as before for 100k, debuffs applies, the final SoD hit will be 200k.

    So the original lashing damage got buffed once, and then half of it was buffed again as SoD.


    2. The OP posted a video of a specific case, with BiS buff etc, It may be a surprise, but with bis buff party Orcus will melt on live too. Yes the SoD is a buff. Will it make the TRs FoTM, no, because SoD has it's issues. Will it make Mi EXE the best for bosses, yes. How much is it? In practice it will increase TRs on Boss by about 1.5-2 times, depends on their ability to have SD uptime. Lets say even x3, ironically it's still not the whoo haa it's described as.

    There is mechanic that can bring the TR damage 10x and more times, a very clunky but can be used in the next mod with the right gear. And the screaming is over this....
    This what happens when people post videos, and other see what they want to see instead what's there.


    But it's not up to me nor anyone to decide, it's known, and the devs will decide.
  • trentbail21trentbail21 Member Posts: 433 Arc User
    I can see this being massively exploited in pvp. Probably needs to be fixed.
    Find me in game if you want and send me a domination/ gaunt invite. If you are good and im not busy ill play with you. Im not an elitist ill play with almost anyone.
  • micky1p00micky1p00 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 3,542 Arc User

    I can see this being massively exploited in pvp. Probably needs to be fixed.

    You need excessive debuffs to actually have any effect. AFAIK this wont happen in PvP.
  • treesclimbertreesclimber Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,161 Arc User
    edited July 2017
    Well....it's weird, the whole main point of the changes was to make piercing damage benefit from DR debuffs, whether it was direct hit or based on a stacked amount, this will make TR more powerful in parties with better DR debuffs applied on the target, but if it's treated single DR debuff multiplier applied only on SoD proc....it..will be the same. Just let it be this way nothing game breaking to see here in pvp just giving TR's a place in pve.


    So the double dipping was what i was seing as normal, thx for clarifying @dupeks and @micky1p00

  • treesclimbertreesclimber Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,161 Arc User
    edited July 2017



    I can see this being massively exploited in pvp. Probably needs to be fixed.

    Haha. Ya, they nerf SE just to break SoD. Now you will die after you run away from the SE.
    SoD only procs from encounter powers, no encounter power is piercing damage and the most you'll do in a rotation in mod 12 is almost the same as now and TR's can apply almost no debuffs on target, there are no builds for SB now, if there is 1 or 2 bold players then it will be good, variety = good.

  • gbrlpf22gbrlpf22 Member Posts: 26 Arc User
    dupeks said:

    Those of you not understanding what the double dip means:

    When SoD begins, it starts counting up damage you deal. It counts the actual damage you deal, including buffs, debuffs, and whatever else is going on at the time. Let's say that during those 6 seconds you managed to deal 100,000 damage.

    Now when SoD procs the hit, it does 100,000 piercing damage, but that piercing damage scales up with any debuffs that are currently on the enemy. Not buffs on the TR, not the TR's RI vs. enemy's DR (armor mitigation).

    So looking back, let's assume that you had 30% debuffs on the enemy during this whole time. You got to that 100,000 damage including those 30% debuffs (as well as including TR's buffs, and TR's RI vs. enemy DR).

    When the SoD proc hits, it does 130,000 piercing damage, because it's 100,000 damage but the enemy debuff gets applied on the SoD proc.

    So the double-dipping is that the debuffs helped you get to 100,000 damage, but then are applied a second time to increase that 100,000 hit.

    It will NOT show up as double-effective in ACT. It's just that the "SoD base damage" accumulates including buffs, debuffs, and RI vs DR. And then the "SoD actual damage" applied debuffs a second time when calculating the final hit. Make sense?

    Thanks for the explanation :)

    But if its balanced with other classes burst dmg in pve, the path it takes or whats going on the backstage doesnt matter for me ... since it doesnt break the game.

    Also PVP players shouldnt be worried about that since Piercing dmg will not ignore tenacity anymore, and its almost impossible to do enough dmg in 6 secs and get enough debuffs to make it scales like in pve...



    Mara Canà - Trickster Rogue 15k - Strawberry Yakuza
  • trentbail21trentbail21 Member Posts: 433 Arc User
    edited July 2017



    I can see this being massively exploited in pvp. Probably needs to be fixed.

    Haha. Ya, they nerf SE just to break SoD. Now you will die after you run away from the SE.
    SoD only procs from encounter powers, no encounter power is piercing damage and the most you'll do in a rotation in mod 12 is almost the same as now and TR's can apply almost no debuffs on target, there are no builds for SB now, if there is 1 or 2 bold players then it will be good, variety = good.
    Guess pc has never seen a smoke bomb first strike shocking execution that procs shadow of demise after it. on xbox you can get hit by a 200k dunk after they hit you with a smoke bomb and hit you for a 100k after lol.
    Find me in game if you want and send me a domination/ gaunt invite. If you are good and im not busy ill play with you. Im not an elitist ill play with almost anyone.
  • jaime4312#3760 jaime4312 Member Posts: 844 Arc User
    Bottomline guys, this is a bug and @thefabricant already reported it, it won't do the class any good to be balanced around glitches, quite the opposite.

    Original poster, if you think you have it bad as TR I strongly suggest you to try or research about SW, it currently is on a rather laughable and bad spot, underpowered in PVE and mostly relegated to unkillable/free kill builds in PVP. SW is actually a prime example of what happens when a class is balanced (and nerfed) around glitches, it got nerfed to Oblivion and is being left behind more and more by the other dps classes as a consequence.
  • archangelzorak01archangelzorak01 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 324 Arc User
    edited July 2017
    I think you are all using the term 'bug' incorrectly. Its working exactly how it is supposed to. Is it getting the benefit of de-buffs twice? Technically, yes; but that isnt a bug, its just how SoD works. SoD is unique in its functionality, and therefore has a now unique interaction with debuffs. That isn't a bug.

    This interaction will not make TR's suddenly do a bajillion times more damage than the other DPS classes.

    Over the course of a bossfight a well played TR can expect to see about 30-35% of their overall damage come from SoD. With the change in M12 I expect that to increase to maybe 40-50% under ideal conditions and flawless execution. Over the course of an entire dungeon that amount is diminished significantly. Whereas before, SoD might contribute 20% of overall damage done by a TR, with the new changes I would guess-timate that may rise to the 30-35% range.

    I'd like to point out once again that it isnt a 'bug' in the sense of the word as I know it. A bug is something that is functioning incorrectly, doing something it isnt supposed to be doing. This interaction between Shadow of Demise and debuffs on a target is working EXACTLY as intended. What does it matter that SoD is piercing? A well-made character ignores 100% of all enemies Damage Resistance anyway and non-player-characters don't have a deflect stat, so they can't deflect. We're basically getting a 'fix' to a power that never took advantage of debuffs. (By the way, this is why piercing damage has always been so godaweful in PVE.)

    I'd also like to mention that these kinds of numbers are already in the game. GF's and GWF's can already very easily get hits in the 30-40 million range. I could go into CN right now on the test server with a couple of the other officers in THC and not even get a chance to proc the newly buffed Shadow of Demise on any of the bosses because the GF in the party would one-hit the bosses from 50% to dead.. or the GWF would do the same with IBS. (This is why nothing is balanced based on CN, the bosses there have the health pool of a 5 yr old anemic goblin child)

    ...and if your worried about pvp. Don't. PVP in this game crawled under the porch and died a pitiful death a long time ago.

    *edited based on dupeks feedback, thxbruh
    Neverwinter Module 6: The only MMO expansion in the history of MMO's to remove more content than it added.


  • dupeksdupeks Member Posts: 1,789 Arc User

    Is it getting the benefit of buffs twice? Technically, yes;

    To clarify, it only benefits from buffs once. It benefits from debuffs twice. A small but important distinction (which I think reinforces the point you were trying to make).

    I generally agree that this does not appear to be as game-breaking as some folks in this thread are making out to be.

    I also agree that calling this a bug is misleading. Currently it appears to be working as the Devs had intended. Now you can make the case that this will be game-breakingly overpowered (I personally don't subscribe to that conclusion) but you shouldn't call it a bug. That only serves to muddy the waters and kind of undermines any legitimate discussion about whether or not the new functionality of the mechanic will impact the game negatively.

    As was pointed out, this isn't even the most effective mechanic PVE TRs have to generate big hits. But since TRs are (sadly) currently less-loved in PVE perhaps giving them a tool that's reasonably good for taking down big single targets in long fights isn't bad for game balance.

    And finally, are folks proposing that no piercing damage should scale with debuffs? Or do you want to make this one power work inconsistently from every other piercing damage source in the game?
This discussion has been closed.