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Official Feedback Thread: M12 Armor Pen Changes and PvP

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  • rustlordrustlord Member Posts: 1,454 Arc User
    edited July 2017

    However there are a handful of TRs who can still 1 Shot me from Full health (234k hp) [...] the vast majority of people think that piercing damage in its current form was way over the top.

    And that being our point. A handful of TR, despite being frowned upon by the rest of the us, maybe they just don't care. I'm not championing to un-nerf side here, but I'm asking for a compensation of some form to make TR useful elsewhere.

    I have put a lot of thought about piercing to respect tenDR as it does now but make it ignore all forms of shield, temp hp, immunity and damage absorb. DC and OP rely on those so much that maybe there could still be a reason to pick up TR other than to be your Courage Breaker companion.
  • dr4g0nst33ldr4g0nst33l Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 8 Arc User

    Perspective is everything. Its quite interesting to hear from some TRs on the changes on preview. At the very least piercing damage must be affected by tenacity. As a GWF I had to adjust (feats, wards, HP) to avoid getting 1shotted in PVP. However there are a handful of TRs who can still 1 Shot me from Full health (234k hp). I actually came across a TR who killed me from full health while in full sprint and what I thought was a good distance away.

    I to don’t like the idea of nerfs, however I think that the vast majority of people think that piercing damage in its current form was way over the top.

    I do agree that there needs to be a way to kill OPs and DCs however. Even a low-level OP can take a while to burst down.

    For your problem and the one of the most is enough to nerf first strike.
  • ayrouxayroux Member Posts: 4,271 Arc User
    edited July 2017
    So here is what we are chatting in Discord about... This seems to be where things are at right now for FUTURE PVP REWORK:
    - remove tenacity DR from stats and move it all to character sheet
    - Crit Resist rework (either reduce the %, OR crit severity rework I proposed).

    STILL NEED SUGGESTIONS FOR:
    - CC
    - "Gear Gap"

    I have posted my thoughts on tenacity, crit resist, CC and Gear Gap in this thread: https://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter#/discussion/1231984/official-feedback-thread-m12-private-pvp-queues-a-bit-about-where-pvp-is-headed/p2
    Post edited by ayroux on
  • kalina311kalina311 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 2,079 Arc User
    edited July 2017
    @ayroux

    where does matchmaking and bracketing(that you proposed ) fall into this ? do we need stat boltsering or curve adjustments if there /is/are pvp brackets ?? which is easier to achieve/ spend dev time on and in what order ??


    does stat bolster not encourage flavor of the month builds more whereas win loss brackets encourages more build diversity / alts to come in to pvp to try where they can be paired with equally under gear+
    characters ..

    solving power gap and stat bolstering is one thing it still wont make the person have correct ideal power slotted tho and they should be able to play/ be matched with new nubs as well to practice no ?

    cause item level is still not be a reliable indicator of competence or power selection or experience when match ,making ... and it still wont feel fair to a player getting smashed despite item level being the same leading to more crying

    are people more likely to buy and up grade gear if they are given stat curves or boosts .. .or if they are in brackets playing more alts hmm

    Which would get a better ROI on hmmm
    which model is more alt friendly
  • trentbail21trentbail21 Member Posts: 433 Arc User
    edited July 2017
    I hope they dont revert anything and just give trs more physical damage or weapon dmg to offset the crit resistance they are facing now or even better yet just make it only respect the DR resistance on pvp armor.

    The last like 6 mods have been a c*** show for 3 classes.. reverting it would just keep the status quo which quite frankly is BUSTED.
    Find me in game if you want and send me a domination/ gaunt invite. If you are good and im not busy ill play with you. Im not an elitist ill play with almost anyone.
  • emilemoemilemo Member Posts: 1,718 Arc User
    Whatever the devs do I think free* damage needs to go away permanently. All damage should be tied to stats, specific class mechanics and capstones. You want to be a dps? Cool - build for it. You must invest in high power, high crit, high armor pen and thus you will be forced to forgo HP and defensive stats. Instead we now have rogues with 180k HP, high deflect and life steal, criminally low armor pen/crit who are tanky but still get to obliterate people thanks to what I call free damage. Same for HRs, they zip around like squirrels on redbull using all manner of fire and forget abilities and the target is bled slowly or in extreme cases very fast by ticks of free damage.

    I miss the old days when a GWF had to catch a target, drop a Takedown in order to serve an IBS. Those were the fun pvp days. Or when a GF had to make an effort to block(instead of current endless block) and could survive a long time but couldnt burst anyone..

    *Free damage - resistible or irresistible damage increased to absurd levels by class features which either boost stats for free (double power, increased armor pen) or simply provide piercing damage thus allowing for some classes to build completely without investing in offensive stats except Power. Feats should be secondary boosters/supplementary not the primary killers they are now.
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  • schietindebuxschietindebux Member Posts: 4,292 Arc User
    edited July 2017
    I got a few points and I know exactly this is not the thread to answer or discuss this, but I can´t stand it.
    I am no pro in terms of testing the optimal percentage of arp resist and tenacity etc.
    I allways thought tenacity is a uneeded thing, wich complicates an allready pretty complex system, and apart from this it is schizophrenic to have piercing damage (only for some classes), wich completely ignore those defence mechanics, but...

    1. do you really think the rework of tenacity and arp resist etc. will change PVP ?
    2. do you think this will improve the experience a new player will get

    There are core problems about PVP wich needs so much attention. Tenacity is a small part of the problem.
    I am more with ayroux about gear gap, matchmaking , SH boons and a way to equal things out.
    PVP should be a place to compete on a somehow same level. NWO is "lightyears away" to achieve this and will stay there if devs ignore the central problems, funkilling PVP right from the start.
    Actual results: Hotenow zero, Rivenscar zero, Gauntlegrym zero, Stronghold Siege lol ... maybe this only proves that noone plays this game any more.

    I can´t see no other solution except separating those groups of:
    1. maxed player with gear, worth arround 100.000.000 AD, running in a premade group out of a GF/Hunter/DC/OP/TR, and
    2. player meeting in a some sort of fair place to compete on equalized IL, without SH boons (or boons in general), without broken enchants, costing 10 mio AD, without potting your IL into nirvana, without all those hurdles >99% of all players obviously deny.
  • trentbail21trentbail21 Member Posts: 433 Arc User
    etelgrin said:

    GF can turtle behind shield which is separate layer DR, and deliver radiculous burst at any given time whenever bullcharge which leads to prone is available, if opponent dodge or gets into its immunity GF turtles behind shield and waits till his encounter is available again. Also when opponent is proned he cannot deflect the damage nor otherwise resist it. He has enough stamina to continously fight like this until opponent die. And then comes ubiquitous shield feature that reduce the combad advantage damage dealt to GF by half, meaning even if I get behind the shield he will still take half of this damage that is already penalized by tenacity. No other class can do like this, specifically being TANK-DPS-SUPPORT all at once.

    Now lets take a look at STRIKER/DPS class SW, in order to survive radiculous GF burst, radiculous piercing blades hits of combat HRs, or other damage that is happening when there is plenty buffs up, I have to go out to domination having roughly 250k HP, about 6,5k deflection, 4k defense (defensive-wise useless stat sadly), I have to go out with Trans Fey, yes yes its defensive and offensive but its impossible to resist the burst with any other chant to be honest without getting cleared, next thing is I have to go out with Valhalla set to further resist the burst and be able to contest the node, my damage with strongest daily power buffed up with pillar and so on, is roughly about 30k CRIT, so I don't really understand why TR is complaining about damage when their new damage is very similar to what I do since I play this toon. At least TR have viable option to go out as amazing controller imho, SW doesn't have this option. Do you think I wanted to go out to domination as SW - basically by design Caster/Striker as a Tank cause I can't do damage and I'm barely able to survive incoming burst from things such as combat hr, conq GFs or First Strike Rogues/Buffed Rogues.

    How is that balanced ?

    You gotta remember these people are the same people that complain about our damage and say that we are too tanky while they one rotate us and say we are balanced. I play a GWF I feel your pain brother.
    Find me in game if you want and send me a domination/ gaunt invite. If you are good and im not busy ill play with you. Im not an elitist ill play with almost anyone.
  • alfalolzalfalolz Member Posts: 161 Arc User

    I cut and paste what I already posted on another section of the forum:

    Since last update of server preview, changings to piercing damage have been made and tr more than hr
    has been disadvantaged by these absurd changes.
    No tr and hr, as well as a lot of sane player of any class, can approve this absurdity.
    Tr in particular bases his damage on Shocking execution (the only skill that can do an effective burst
    damage on single target in pvp) that is based on piercing damage and after this patch started make
    ridiculous damages (from 35k to 55K in general without any debuff and sometimes less than 20k with debuffs
    such as fey and valhalla). These changings to Tenacity are absurd and not necessary but here if any pug start complain about something just because he isn't able to play his own class his will is satisfied.
    I tried to play without SE and using other dailies (such as Blood Bath) and in some cases they're good 1vs1 but in a domination are unusable. Try to imagine how bad can be BB used at the beginning on point 2 or just if on point there're more than 1 person. The only way to play pvp in mod 12 for a tr will be just using Courage Breaker all the time. No damage, no kills, like some modules ago, before the introduction of new weapons.
    Don't know what was the problem with piercing. SE could do an average damage of 120-130k without buff from other players and sometimes reach peaks of 150k or more, but anyway not enought to kill a well equipped player if u consider that all other skills were used just prepare SE hit. The problem are oneshots (thanks to First Strike) and buffs from Itf or Clerics etc. that make SE reach insane damages. Problem is not the base damage of SE that represent the only good way to do damage in pvp for a tr.
    Also combat hr's damage was good and doesn't need changings (hr's problem are insane healings more than anything else, not damage).

    Or they increase SE's physical damage or also tenacity mitigation is insane. Shocking Execution is not enought to kill nodoby without buffs from dcs or gfs and a -40% would mean "good bye damage" too. Considering the insane anount of healings that are in pvp now if u can't onerotate u wouldn't kill nobody. All here complaining about trs and nobody see that gf (that would be tank class) can onerotate everyone and his rotation does much more damage compared with tr's once (CB, smoke, St or Ds and SE...damage comes just from one daily: SE).
    Anyway tenacity have to reduce piering damage? Ok but SE have to be buffed in physical damage and needs to same burst of the preview server. Must be nerfed insane buff from dc and first strike more than other thinks.

    You guys been spoiled for toooo long with piercing damage i.e SE.
    Might wanna build something else, appart from having 15-20k recovery and having endless immunity to damage.
    Remove recovery to normal levels and invest into different stats like other players.

  • bvirabvira Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 385 Arc User
    Problem: Crit is useless
    I really don't get the rationale behind Crit Resistance. Crit doing less dmg than non-crit at base crit severity just defies logic. This renders crit useless in PvP except for some rare instances. Not to mention CritR is killing an entire class (TR) who has 100% crit chance.

    Moreover, since crit > power in PvE for dmg, most PvE players have crit enchants slotted which makes transitioning into PvP a lot more difficult. Unless one has a complete new set of enchants, people would be forced to play with a sub-optimal stat distribution. Similarly, it makes PvP players transitioning into PvE difficult as well.


    Suggestion: Remove/reduce crit resistance

    Having 100% crit chance actually makes you deal less dmg than having 0% crit chance....what is the logic? I'd say just remove Crit Resist entirely and boost Tenacity DR.
  • armadeonxarmadeonx Member Posts: 4,952 Arc User
    The obvious reason why TR's & HR's are over-represented in pvp - they have the ideal combinations of stun/stealth/piercing damage/high deflect. Nobody else has this 'golden' combination and there's a distinct lack of trade-offs between damage taken & damage given and hard to hit & hit hard. You should be able to max one in one direction or the other, not both.
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  • ayrouxayroux Member Posts: 4,271 Arc User
    kalina311 said:

    @ayroux

    where does matchmaking and bracketing(that you proposed ) fall into this ? do we need stat boltsering or curve adjustments if there /is/are pvp brackets ?? which is easier to achieve/ spend dev time on and in what order ??


    does stat bolster not encourage flavor of the month builds more whereas win loss brackets encourages more build diversity / alts to come in to pvp to try where they can be paired with equally under gear+
    characters ..

    solving power gap and stat bolstering is one thing it still wont make the person have correct ideal power slotted tho and they should be able to play/ be matched with new nubs as well to practice no ?

    cause item level is still not be a reliable indicator of competence or power selection or experience when match ,making ... and it still wont feel fair to a player getting smashed despite item level being the same leading to more crying

    are people more likely to buy and up grade gear if they are given stat curves or boosts .. .or if they are in brackets playing more alts hmm

    Which would get a better ROI on hmmm
    which model is more alt friendly

    Matchmaking can really only be achieved when you have a more "level" playing field. I have written on this before, but the issue with NW isnt "matchmaking" we used to have a very healthy PVP population back when gear gap was smaller. However I have suggested ALSO many times (including this thread) about doing a new PVP system where you have "PVP Level" and as yo uwin games you gain EXP, lose games and lose EXP, etc. Which would then BE matchmaking.

    That said, when we have 100 people in PVP, no amount of "good matchmaking" will really result in fair matches OR good que times (this is why they say they cant "tighten" the matchmaking without drastic increase to que times).

    I think stat bolster is ONE way to reduce gear gap. I have suggested BETTER "gear gap" reduction methods (such as mimicing the WOW model of PVP, or merely removing all campaign boons from PVP, or doing Iyons "severe diminishing returns" in PVP" but all those entails quite a bit of work... where as a "bolster" system is already being used, and they can change the "reference" from player level to item level (I know its much more complicated than this, but merely for illustration sake).

    Does this "bolster system" have drawbacks? Yes. There are FOTM builds that could arise... There are other issues such as players finding really good "items" with low item level So there are things that are NOT a direct "item level = more powerful" sure...

    So back to your questions (which seemed to be proposed as statements and not as much questions)

    "wont make the person have correct ideal power slotted tho" - Yup. But this is the game. You cant fix EVERYTHING but right now skill isnt much of a factor. You cant take the "best skilled NW player" in a fresh 70 and let him compete in PVP. This is the idea. A "moderately" geared lvl 70, with the best "skilled" NW player should be competitive in PVP....

    Yes - there are always liabilities. Every "system" as pros and cons. So we have to ask. Will this new system have more PROS than CONS? I think so.... Right now the "PRO" side of things is VERY small where the CONS list is large.

    Also I wouldnt be worried about the "pay model". I think you are underestimating how much players like things like cosmetics. If they introduce an NCL lets say, and obviously more boons and better gear will ALWAYS give an advantage... I think people will pay, no doubt.

    Show me any other game, that is an MMO with "successful" PVP that has "gear gap" like this one... It doesnt exist. Even looking at games like the infamous WOW changed their PVP model. Games like ESO have over the years made being "competitive" in PVP easier and easier, lessening the impact of "power creep".

    Anyways, Im not sure what "position" your trying to support. Do you supporting leaving things as is? Where gear gap is SO large? I think we both agree a better "PVP System" makes a ton of sense... (I think my suggestion is page 1 btw) but MORE important than that, would be reducing gear gap.
  • ayrouxayroux Member Posts: 4,271 Arc User
    bvira said:

    Problem: Crit is useless
    I really don't get the rationale behind Crit Resistance. Crit doing less dmg than non-crit at base crit severity just defies logic. This renders crit useless in PvP except for some rare instances. Not to mention CritR is killing an entire class (TR) who has 100% crit chance.

    Moreover, since crit > power in PvE for dmg, most PvE players have crit enchants slotted which makes transitioning into PvP a lot more difficult. Unless one has a complete new set of enchants, people would be forced to play with a sub-optimal stat distribution. Similarly, it makes PvP players transitioning into PvE difficult as well.


    Suggestion: Remove/reduce crit resistance

    Having 100% crit chance actually makes you deal less dmg than having 0% crit chance....what is the logic? I'd say just remove Crit Resist entirely and boost Tenacity DR.


    BETTER SUGGESTION: MOVE crit resist from its own layer TO the "crit severity" layer.

    Meaning the formula is currently this (simplified):

    Base Damage * (1+crit severity) * (1- tenacity %) * (1- crit resist %).

    WHAT IT SHOULD BE:

    Base Damage * (1+crit severity*(1-crit resist %)) * (1-tenacity %).


    How is this different? Lets plug in numbers.... 75% Crit Severity. 43% Tenacity and Crit Resist %s on 50,000 base damage.

    CURRENT NON-CRIT: 50,000 * (1-43%) = 28,500 damage
    CURRENT CRIT: 50,000 * (1+75%) * (1-43%) * (1-43%) = 28,428 damage

    NEW NON CRIT: 50,000 * (1-43%) = 28,500 damage
    NEW CRIT: 50,000 * (1+(75% * (1-43%))) * (1-43%) = 40,683 damage

    Merely changing WHERE the crit resist is, and what it impacts... Makes a WORLD of difference.
  • schietindebuxschietindebux Member Posts: 4,292 Arc User
    edited July 2017
    etelgrin said:

    ... so I don't really understand why TR is complaining about damage when their new damage is very similar to what I do since I play this toon. At least TR have viable option to go out as amazing controller imho, SW doesn't have this option...
    How is that balanced ?

    just experienced the next TR meta in mod 12 ... even worse than MI sab, thy for the experience :)
    I guess that class has nothing to fear at all, so many options, it only needs someone to check them
  • rustlordrustlord Member Posts: 1,454 Arc User
    Honestly, with piercing changes TR would land somewhere in pre-rework mod 3 or 4, perma-troll meta that hardly dies and can't kill, with oppressor-level almost-trapper kind of annoying. It's not totally unplayable, but definitely not a striker. Gameplay variety expands a little just to make room for experimenting rogues, although we all know the next meta is Courage Breaker, until nerf.

    Playing DPS as TR without piercing is not impossible in very limited situations. You should understand that piercing only became "too good" because every damage power in the TR arsenal became obsolete no thanks to overhealing. Rogue is either a bursty hit-and-runner or an attrition fighter. For the latter, too much healing is the only universal problem that should be dealt with with things like expendable resource, or stacking healing depression so it's possible again to wear someone down and kill slowly.

  • schietindebuxschietindebux Member Posts: 4,292 Arc User
    edited July 2017
    clonkyo1 said:

    etelgrin said:

    ... so I don't really understand why TR is complaining about damage when their new damage is very similar to what I do since I play this toon. At least TR have viable option to go out as amazing controller imho, SW doesn't have this option...
    How is that balanced ?

    just experienced the next TR meta in mod 12 ... even worse than MI sab, thy for the experience :)
    I guess that class has nothing to fear at all, so many options, it only needs someone to check them
    Yep. the only thing that they lost was "one shots"... and, don't know why, i would add "for now"...
    ... i was killed in no time by some kind of bloodeffect (or whatever). No ACT running to check, but really interesting. Anyway that class can take endless damage from 4 sources in case you chose the right number of deflect paired with the potted deflectseverity, so really no time to cry at all :smile: the future looks bride
    CB+Smokebomb+wtf idk... melted in seconds , and my stats are not that bad
  • ayrouxayroux Member Posts: 4,271 Arc User
    edited July 2017
    rustlord said:

    Honestly, with piercing changes TR would land somewhere in pre-rework mod 3 or 4, perma-troll meta that hardly dies and can't kill, with oppressor-level almost-trapper kind of annoying. It's not totally unplayable, but definitely not a striker. Gameplay variety expands a little just to make room for experimenting rogues, although we all know the next meta is Courage Breaker, until nerf.

    Playing DPS as TR without piercing is not impossible in very limited situations. You should understand that piercing only became "too good" because every damage power in the TR arsenal became obsolete no thanks to overhealing. Rogue is either a bursty hit-and-runner or an attrition fighter. For the latter, too much healing is the only universal problem that should be dealt with with things like expendable resource, or stacking healing depression so it's possible again to wear someone down and kill slowly.

    This is true. I was just talking about this today in discord. How I missed mod 2/3 days when tenacity FIRST came out and lifesteal wasnt very good as there were VERY limited sources of it, and it had pretty harsh diminishing returns and it worked differently than it did today (returned X% of damage on every hit, rather than % chance to return 100% of damage).

    Regen was the only "self healing" we really had... and that was cut in half with heal depression. So classes slowly "whittled" down from full HP to nothing. This created much more fun build options as now DPS mattered.

    if you care to see what tenacity 1v1s were like when it FIRST came out here is a taste:

    There was very little self healing. TRs didnt rely on "1 hit SEs" - neither did GWFs or any other class. It was not a "sprint" but rather a longer fight of play and counter play.
    Post edited by ayroux on
  • trentbail21trentbail21 Member Posts: 433 Arc User
    edited July 2017
    People do WAY to much damage (GF's, trs and hrs) to revert lifesteal or cut incoming healing that much more all you have to have to do to fix gwfs survivability is to move countless scars to the 4th row of the sentinel feats and they will become alot squishier.

    It already is a marathon vs gfs while they sprint versus you lol. class balance is so f ed up.
    Find me in game if you want and send me a domination/ gaunt invite. If you are good and im not busy ill play with you. Im not an elitist ill play with almost anyone.
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