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Official Feedback Thread: M12 Armor Pen Changes and PvP

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  • mamalion1234mamalion1234 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 3,415 Arc User
    edited July 2017
    bvira said:

    Did some testings today and the formulas are so much simpler now:

    Non crit formula = TenDR+(1-TenDR)*(DR-Attacker's Arp/2)

    Crit formula = TenDR+(1-TenDR)*(DR-Attacker's Arp/2)+CritR*(1-TenDR)

    The major difference now is that no matter how high your arpen is, the base Tenacity DR cannot be mitigated where in the past you could.

    [LINK] Spreadsheet for test results.

    piercing damage get critical supresion too? a shocking used to hit 250k. a player with good tenacity values has 40% dr and 40% critical resist then the shocking will hit 40k? and a shocking which is not critical if hit 70k will hit after tenacity 42k?

    I dont know how it goes on piercing criticals.

    ALSo i have to say something about rogues many of their damage bonuses coming from stealth. BEsides shocking which so far ignored and the tenacity now tr instead to have benefits going stealth he will get penalty for his all attacks with this change because the critical tenacity reduction.
    WHile the all other classes they get damage bonuses and they are not forced to land critical hit.
  • nickjdowenickjdowe Member Posts: 158 Arc User
    But that's what every class experiences in PvP. It's called tenacity. For several mods TRs only needed 2 stats, Power and Recovery. They have 100% chance to crit from stealth and piercing damage requires no points in ArP. This went on for too long and classes adapted by dropping their mitigation stats and stacking HP to the moon. SE would hit for 150k so players would stack 200k HP. No point in defense stat because piercing ignores it. TRs pushed harder, potted up, started hitting for 200k. The community adjusted again, dropping more stats and got HP to 240k. Now the devs make piercing respect Tenacity and you can't understand why SE can't 1 shot someone with 240k HP? It's because your target has no defense to pierce, he abandoned it 2 mods ago for HP.

    Have the devs removed Armor Pen Resist yet? Have they toned down crit severity resist? Should Tenacity just be DR and CC resist?
  • whitestaruawhitestarua Member Posts: 175 Arc User
    edited July 2017
    @rgutscheradev



    Feedback:

    1. TR has no damage.
    2. Combat HR - can't kill GF.
    3. DC is almost immortal Even if he stands alone against two opponents.
    4. GWF - is better now but still can die vs combat HR.

    There are videos of tests:
    https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLRCKgDuW1wfNQYxqp9HaakQTc_9hBfZPS



    150k SE of TR now is ~60k
    Now (on live server) TR can make 400k SE(but you still can evade it) with all buffs (ITF+HG+...etc) -> after changes is ~ 170k of damage.
    When all people have 200k+ HP and huge amount of healing. TR will not be able to kill anyone after this changes.
    All other powers of this class cant deal so much damage to kill someone.

    After changes Combat HR can not deal necessary amount of damage to kill GF.
    He still can kill GWF but is a little bit harder.
    All other classes can easy kite them or fight with zero result.


    Its Almost impossible to kill good DC without SE.

    GWF is better now with changes, but i think is better to give them piercing resist into the TAB and\or SHIFT but do not make damage reduction buy tenacity. PvP need more damage, not less. And you can solve GWF problems with other ways.



    GF's still are kings of PvP And this update makes them even more overpowered In comparison with other classes.

    All this you can see on videos from out tests.

    All players have SH boons, top equip, and a lot of exp in pvp.



    UPD
    - Trapper HR has no damage too.
    - Archer HR too.
    - DC's AotD radius is overpowered. (you can save you Teammate from a very long distance)
    Post edited by whitestarua on
  • bvirabvira Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 385 Arc User

    Thanks for posting that data @bvira. I bounced my updated formulas up against your data, and confirmed they are still accurate. However, I don't think your conclusion is correct.

    On PTR you can at most do 80% of your tooltip dmg (against someone with just 20% tenacity; no buffs/debuffs). ArP can only mitigate the DR provided by defense stat, skills, and AC etc., but not the tenacity DR.

    Whereas on live you can do >100% tooltip dmg (no debuffs/buffs) if your arpen > opponent's total DR (combination of DR, TenDR, CritR, ArpR). It rarely happens anyway except against someone who has no/little tenacity.

  • whitestaruawhitestarua Member Posts: 175 Arc User

    I say, remove SH boons from PVP, the HP from the SH boon is what the problem is now.

    Let to GF's kill you faster :D
  • whitestaruawhitestarua Member Posts: 175 Arc User

    I say, remove SH boons from PVP, the HP from the SH boon is what the problem is now.

    Let to GF's kill you faster :D
    Well, GF is busted and needs to be toned down anyway, it is top DPS class, and it is not even a DPS class. Haha
    SH boons are very important part of the game.
    MMO -> is social game... and guilds are the part of mmo.
  • whitestaruawhitestarua Member Posts: 175 Arc User

    Well, then there is no solution. Just leave things as they are on Live and everybody quit complaining about a lack of balance. Let the devs focus on other things.

    You can solve balance problems with other ways.

    SE on live is not OP, just only GWF and SW -> so remake SHIFT for this classes to resis piercing damage.
    Huge amount of HP, healing, defence? -> just need to fix some insignia bonuses, DC's astral shield, FeyT ench etc.
  • josiahiyonjosiahiyon Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 396 Arc User
    bvira said:

    Thanks for posting that data @bvira. I bounced my updated formulas up against your data, and confirmed they are still accurate. However, I don't think your conclusion is correct.

    On PTR you can at most do 80% of your tooltip dmg (against someone with just 20% tenacity; no buffs/debuffs). ArP can only mitigate the DR provided by defense stat, skills, and AC etc., but not the tenacity DR.

    Whereas on live you can do >100% tooltip dmg (no debuffs/buffs) if your arpen > opponent's total DR (combination of DR, TenDR, CritR, ArpR). It rarely happens anyway except against someone who has no/little tenacity.

    Considering that your formula and my formula produce the exact same results, I assume that we're both doing and talking about the same thing.. but saying it differently. I honestly don't understand what you are saying. Do you think it is different than the 2 differences i explained above? Because those 2 differences perfectly account for what your data shows.

    I think you are describing the 'bug fix' that the dev described in this thread: Resistance Ignored can no longer bring someone below 0% DR. The other difference is the flat 50% arpen tenacity dr.

    On live, RI can NOT mitigate tenacity DR. Tenacity DR is on a different multiplicative layer. The only thing that ties RI to tenacity DR is that the minimum effectiveness is 20%. That is also true on ptr. That is not 1 of the differences between live and ptr.
    Pvpbysynergy.png
    Iyon the Dark
  • mamalion1234mamalion1234 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 3,415 Arc User
  • trentbail21trentbail21 Member Posts: 433 Arc User
    edited July 2017
    @whitestarua
    Lets be 100% honest the rogue has like 100 million defensive maneuvers between rolling, ITC, smokebomb, stealth and courage breaker and as it is right now these high recovery trs literally have like 5 seconds between CB at the max if they are speced right. Doesn't seem right to be able to one of the best killers too. They are also one of the best classes for team play too because of courage breaker and rotating between nodes. GWF has no teambased super abilities even close so they may as well take a hit and be able to give some big ones.

    @defiantone99 I totally agree about the GF like really how is that class supposed to be the top melee DPS? like really?

    @nickjdowe Ill see you mod 12 bro. get ready!
    Find me in game if you want and send me a domination/ gaunt invite. If you are good and im not busy ill play with you. Im not an elitist ill play with almost anyone.
  • bvirabvira Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 385 Arc User


    On live, RI can NOT mitigate tenacity DR. Tenacity DR is on a different multiplicative layer. The only thing that ties RI to tenacity DR is that the minimum effectiveness is 20%. That is also true on ptr. That is not 1 of the differences between live and ptr.

    Last time I tested [Link] RI was able to mitigate tenacity DR, was actually confirmed by some other players as well. Maybe they've changed something in the past couple of months? Anyway this would be the past soon so forget about it :)
  • bvirabvira Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 385 Arc User

    OH nice changes prepare for perma courage breaker !

    And also trappers.... next mod will be hell
  • trentbail21trentbail21 Member Posts: 433 Arc User
    bvira said:

    OH nice changes prepare for perma courage breaker !

    And also trappers.... next mod will be hell
    Everyone should just wear an eleven lol. but yes trappers really good and permanent cb rogues are insane (cb trs totally need a daily timer).
    Find me in game if you want and send me a domination/ gaunt invite. If you are good and im not busy ill play with you. Im not an elitist ill play with almost anyone.
  • jaime4312#3760 jaime4312 Member Posts: 844 Arc User
    So if understand everything you guys said, do we have pretty much 2 options?

    1. Keep changes and get ready to face a perma CC build fest.
    2. Revert changes and get ready to be instakilled/1 rotated by TR SE/combat HR piercing damage.

    If that's the case then it just doesn't sound right. Much like some of you stated, piercing damage changes are good if and only if TR and HR get tweaks that can enable them to deal good damage without needing to rely on piercing damage and for this they'd need to stack power and armour penetration just like the other classes.

    @rgutscheradev proposed changes to obscenely overpowered TR/combat HR piercing damage need to be released with damage changes that make them a threat to other players otherwise you are flat out nerfing them in a very savage way.
  • marnivalmarnival Member Posts: 1,432 Arc User

    So if understand everything you guys said, do we have pretty much 2 options?

    1. Keep changes and get ready to face a perma CC build fest.
    2. Revert changes and get ready to be instakilled/1 rotated by TR SE/combat HR piercing damage.

    If that's the case then it just doesn't sound right. Much like some of you stated, piercing damage changes are good if and only if TR and HR get tweaks that can enable them to deal good damage without needing to rely on piercing damage and for this they'd need to stack power and armour penetration just like the other classes.

    @rgutscheradev proposed changes to obscenely overpowered TR/combat HR piercing damage need to be released with damage changes that make them a threat to other players otherwise you are flat out nerfing them in a very savage way.

    CC are being looked at by the devs just stated they do not have the time to make it happen right now.
    Changes to piercing is a must and rest have to be fixed when class balance happens we just have to live with it for the time being.

    Going back to what was before is even worse and will get us nowhere any way.

    Let us just focus on what is needed to make these changes work instead of qqing about what was better before and what is bad with it now.

    It is still quite a bit of testing to do with new pve gear among other things.
  • darthtzarrdarthtzarr Member Posts: 1,003 Arc User
    edited July 2017
    @rgutscheradev

    After limited testing on the preview server, this is what I think of the newest changes placed on preview

    #1 The piercing nerf was extremely harsh on the specific ability: Shocking Execution. It nerfed things like Piercing Blade by about ~30-40%. However, Shocking Execution is able to crit, and is now nerfed by around ~50-60% due to being reduced by both Tenacity DR and Critical Resist (non-crit Shocking Execution was nerfed the same amount as Piercing Blade and other piercing sources).

    #2 The armor pen resist being removed and being replaced with a flat 50% armor pen resist for everyone is nice, but it isn't exactly what I was thinking when you said armor pen will be 50% effective. Armor pen isn't 50% effective, Resistance Ignored is 50% effective. There are many sources of Resistance Ignored that are worth less than their alternates in most situations due to comparing a 1:100 stat with other 1:400 stats. One such example is ability scores that give Resistance Ignored. Some possible fixes could be to increase the amount that these ability scores give their class, or maybe to exclude these sources from the 50% reduction.

    #3 When adding new players to a private pvp queue that is already in a map instance, they are always added to the same team. Players also cannot have their team switched while in the instance. It would be a nice feature to allow players to have their teams switchable during the match, maybe have them join the team of the queue leader, so that you could pass the lead to the other team, or at minimum have them alternate teams as they are added mid-match. This is required for any player-made game mode where players switch teams during the match, or just for easily setting up a dueling instance.


    -- --

    It is nice that pvp is getting some attention, and I would just like to point out that these changes are welcomed with one caveat--don't stop. Some things that could be looked at later:

    #1 Gear (anything that improves your character) shouldn't put someone more than 20-50% ahead of someone who just started. If the gap is too large, and the new players are matched with experienced players, with a large skill/gear difference, the new players cannot even begin. Lowering the entry fee allows more people to reach the end-goal.

    #2 Heals (specifically self-heals) should not be able to take you from 5% HP to max HP in under the time you want a regular fight to last. If you can heal 100% of your HP in under 2 seconds, your opponent has to deal enough damage to kill you in under 3 seconds. Because of this, most burst healing (specifically lifesteal) should probably be toned down. One of the best suggestions I have heard so far involved lifesteal becoming a heal over time, and regeneration working in combat, but requiring you to take damage before it activates for a brief duration. This applies to both pvp and pve

    #3 Crowd Control of all types should probably have some type of cooldown applied to the victim after repeated use similar to the DC powers Break the Spirit and Geas, however the victim level cooldowns on these powers feel excessively long even for these powers, so realistically these cooldowns should probably be a lot shorter than the DC ones. The only issue with CC in the pvp scenario is when you get into a situation where you are simply not allowed to fight back for an extended period of time (potentially even the entire 5 minutes of the fight). This has to be done very carefully to avoid completely ruining CC entirely like it is on Geas. It can be fun if implemented with proper gaps between the stuns.

    #4 Drains -- I don't think I need to go into too much detail on this one, but forcing players to join a level 20 pvp guild just to avoid dying to a cheap item that has never felt fun, isn't exactly my idea of good design.

    #5 Anything else I missed -- Just keep the communication lines open :)

    Signature [WIP] - tyvm John

  • darthtzarrdarthtzarr Member Posts: 1,003 Arc User
    edited July 2017

    Ok, SE hits for over 200k on live, so nerfing it by 50%-60% is still too much damage. It is supposed to be a finisher, not an I Win button. Make it a finishing move, not an opener.

    If 80k damage is an "I Win button" ... there are several other powers that come to mind.

    EDIT - it's also worth noting that it was nerfed closer to 60-65% if you exclude the fact that it now benefits from debuffs

    Signature [WIP] - tyvm John

  • darthtzarrdarthtzarr Member Posts: 1,003 Arc User

    The whole debate assumes that everybody who PVPs has a maxed out toon, a rank 10 HP SH boon, full Tenacity, full HP from ability scores and the 50k HP chest. The goal should be to allow players who do not have all of that, and those who want to also PVE, to be able to enjoy and compete in PVP. Give everybody a plot for the HP boon, or remove that boon from PVP.

    Currently, pvp can only be balanced against BiS, or at least close to BiS. Part of the system needs to change in order for fresh level 70s to have any type of chance against a best in slot player. You cannot balance the damage of one power based on the HP pools of a 6k toon wearing only basic pvp gear, when everything else still exists. All of pvp needs to be reworked for the little guy, not just shocking execution. One way of doing this is to create a system similar to the level scaling in low level dungeon, but using better formulas, since we all know the ones in leveling dungeons don't work.

    Signature [WIP] - tyvm John

  • treesclimbertreesclimber Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,161 Arc User

    The whole debate assumes that everybody who PVPs has a maxed out toon, a rank 10 HP SH boon, full Tenacity, full HP from ability scores and the 50k HP chest. The goal should be to allow players who do not have all of that, and those who want to also PVE, to be able to enjoy and compete in PVP. Give everybody a plot for the HP boon, or remove that boon from PVP.

    Or double DR granted by Defence in pvp.


  • whitestaruawhitestarua Member Posts: 175 Arc User
    @darthtzarr
    In the majority you write good things.

    But how many times you think about BiS premade vs BiS premade?


    Many people that complain here(no, not you, you write good things) just do not know how is going this pvp when all have many hp, healing, defence, CC and DC in both teams :D
  • whitestaruawhitestarua Member Posts: 175 Arc User
    edited July 2017
    something like this
    https://youtube.com/watch?v=WPy6Zlv_76A
    12 and 5 kills this is ok?
  • whitestaruawhitestarua Member Posts: 175 Arc User
    edited July 2017
    @rgutscheradev


    Make fixed time of respawn on pvp arena. Is not fair when you dead emeny returns to the node after 4-5s but you after 15-20 or or vice versa.



    update

    https://youtube.com/watch?v=auEhEEmA7AY
    TRvsCombatHR (TR won)
    https://youtube.com/watch?v=HNwvH0QLSvg Same guys but hr won.

    After changes no way for TR.



    update2
    i think what it would be better to ask out of the respawn times, is Escalating Respawn Timer: basically in a PvP match at the beginnin ALL would start with a 5s respawn time, the more the match will progress the higher the timer it will be.. 6s,7s,8s...20s at max , depending on the progression of the match, also it would be good to get an OVERTIME if both teams are above 901 points, the overtime would be of 300 extra points, that would be 1300 points.


    Post edited by whitestarua on
  • schietindebuxschietindebux Member Posts: 4,292 Arc User
    edited July 2017

    @darthtzarr
    In the majority you write good things.

    But how many times you think about BiS premade vs BiS premade?


    Many people that complain here(no, not you, you write good things) just do not know how is going this pvp when all have many hp, healing, defence, CC and DC in both teams :D

    Agree about that point. This discussion should be held by player that care about PVP and know about balance in PVP, not by player like mine, who dip into PVP once a week ... as far as those PVP-pros do have interest in a fair classbalance.

    But let me state one thing, and keep it in mind.
    PVP stays a complete mess, no matter wich srew you turn.
    Tenacity to the left, piercing to the right... after the rework I assure you will find the next broken class right from the start.
    Right now you can enjoy the "Piercing-Hunter" melting thing in seconds, TR one hitting you for the double of your life and GF´s controling you to death, bursting a player in seconds... pretty interesting what class will be overperforming next.

    Not to talk about the actual queue system making any effort to queue solo completely senseless bc you 100% end up in a "4/5-no clue, no teamwork team" vs. "semi-premade-clue-team".... one player quitts at the start bc he did not sync with his mates or he saw his undergeared mates.
    That´s Buhllshiet and it´s like this since i started this game.
    Premade = want to contest in a premade group, staffed with BIS-gear and composed of sepcific classes
    No-Premade = just want to do his daily PVP, enyjoy some time and get some AD
    pretty simple i my eyes...but this company now fails for years to separate the queue for those simple setups.
    Post edited by schietindebux on
  • tanarri380tanarri380 Member Posts: 1 Arc User
    Changes in piercing damage will kill PVP, i don't know why somebody don't understand it...

    Now, we have, let say TR-HR-GF on the top of DPS in PVP. They easily kills one each other in 5vs5 PVP domination. It's kind of balance.
    CW with ring of visability remove TR from desk and also can provide extremly high amounts of damage, it's kind of balance.
    HR trapper - CC viable support. It's kind of balance.
    DC and OP - you will never kill them without assist, even in assist with TR-HR-GF sometimes it needs sooo much time.

    So, the main problem now is GWF and SW. 1-shot TR remove GWF and SW from desk, if you give them possibility to save from SE then it will be kind of balance.

    If all will be like on test server now - then expecting approximately ZERO deaths in top PVP. It's very interesting PVP :(
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