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Official Feedback Thread: M12 Armor Pen Changes and PvP

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  • armadeonxarmadeonx Posts: 3,807Member Arc User

    armadeonx said:

    However, I do think we need a pool of resistance that AP negates, and another pool that it doesn't affect. For sure, Armor Class and Defense go in that first pool. For sure, Tenacity and GF/P shields go in that second pool.

    @rgutscheradev this is the second time you've stated that the Paladin shield is a separate layer of defence so I'm assuming this is actually what you think and not just a typing oversight.

    The OP shield is not a separate layer (feel free to check for yourself) but it was something strongly requested by Paladin players during the last round of adjustments.

    The general feeling of paladins commenting was that as it's a 360 degree shield it should be a separate layer but at a much lower value than the GF shield; somewhere around 40-45% DR.

    TBH, I'm almost certain he's referring to the paladin shields that show up as a blue bar over your hitpoints... y'know, the Bulwark mechanics that not many people actually use. Sanctuary isn't a shield.

    Ed: Any OP ability where the tooltip says "you/party/allies are shielded".
    Eh, that's true I guess - the temp health bars from TW/Absolution/BO are separate layers.


    Xael De Armadeon: DC
    Xane De Armadeon: CW
    Zen De Armadeon: OP
    Zohar De Armadeon: TR
    Chrion De Armadeon: SW
    Gosti Big Belly: GWF
    Barney McRustbucket: GF
    Lt. Thackeray: HR


  • jhpnwjhpnw Posts: 607Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    kalina311 said:

    @jhpnw lets see ... where to begin with you ... quotes from your thread

    ". Do you really want just BIS in PVP"

    umm this thread is about opening up options for lower barriers to entry/ balance to pvp for there were many suggestions that counter most of your complaints.. where did anybody say they only want bis in pvp in fact many said the opposite

    "Cryptic will not commit the resources to fix things over all SO Why nerf any class right now! Till they can address whole PVP class balance this is just crazy with these"

    there you ask and answer your own question.. they need to make smaller changes first and the dev said more are on the table next mod had you read.... there is one dev trying to help us with this they are low on resources we will take what we can get.. this is a side effect of armor pen fixes and changes in pve as well

    here you say its piercing the only threat to god players ...
    "changes to Piercing you will eliminate the only threats to the God like Bis players which are the ones on this thread

    here you contradict yourself

    " the rest of the HRs just are not that big of a threat to the end game players."

    so this adjustment would only effect a few end game hr s like you crying should balance be based one the few like you or the many ?? in most player eyes YOU are the god like player

    what about the mid and low end hr we want to bring in new player right ? will the piecing as it is be balanced for low and mid ranged pvp i think NOT

    "changes just end the class as a pvp option and the gear gap will even further widen because the BIG BIS with deep pockets will just stack Tenacity"

    tenacity is on the table to be removed / given a base stat to all ... and you cant over stack it anyways . with the most stackable stat armor pen resist (~76%)being removed most player with the 50k hitpoint armor are around 68% at the moment just flat out wrong dude as deep as pockets are you cant just buy more tenacity


    dude you need to read the entire thread and what the dev actually wrote before ranting nonsense

    everybody is going to be more or less squishier next mod with the meta changing to extreme burst damage ...kill or be killed

    you might not be doing as much perceing damage but alot of targets will be squishier as well

    and if the meta of kyte fighting off nodes comes back then you have way more time at range to attack and clear some one off the node without even having to step on it or contest it ...where some classes will be force pinned on the node (no range no gap closers )..or the get off the node and face me or die game meta begins which we have not had for a while

    most non ranged classes are squishier in the new meta with puts ranged at an advantage again to tease and taunt people to go off node... with less risk to you being restricted to fighting in a small space on node

    that was an earlier pvp complaint/ meta problem less geared class with good attack power ranging and chipping away at health off node or up on the balconies at range ..anoying but effective sometimes

    so even if piecing is halved at range you get in 2 or 3 more rotation to targets that cant reach you .. with reduced armor pen resistance now ... or go in to sacrifice yourself 2 v 1and kill one bis player and then be taken out by the second

    so in short piecing needs to be nerfed as a side effect of changes
    you dont seem to be complain that trs got piecing nerfed

    so in summary
    you just dont want it adjusted so you can kill a few high end pvp players that are like less then 1% of the population that you may have a personal vendetta with

    the needs of the many out weigh the needs of the few to quote spock

    in the meantime just drink like 20 pvp potions to counter the nerf lol

    you would not say this if they only had just nerfed CW
  • jhpnwjhpnw Posts: 607Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    edited June 2017
    marnival said:

    jhpnw said:

    Lord knows I hate to even say any thing< but here goes. Do you really want just BIS in PVP. Ist I did not like the changes to HR when they did the rework but the best person doing Class balance Left in the middle. As a HR when class balance was being done I spoke out against it.HR needed a big damage boost for PVP because the class was dying. The problem was not making PVE more powerful. So we got 50% piercing and became viable in PVP. Cryptic will not commit the resources to fix things over all SO Why nerf any class right now! Till they can address whole PVP class balance this is just crazy with these changes to Piercing you will eliminate the only threats to the God like Bis players which are the ones on this thread. So now we get nerfed with out any compensation at all. I PVP as a combat HR and am not quite BIS with Piercing I am a threat but most of the Bis players have worked out how to deal with HRs. I regularly face Saber and Icy and they deal JUST FINE. Other than a few BIS HRs with gear and SH boons to stack over 230k HPs the rest of the HRs just are not that big of a threat to the end game players. HR got Piercing to give us teeth and become a way to defeat the other classes that ruled PVP. Many of the GWF and GFs were not happy with this but look who rules the leader board with most kills. I just ask that don't do anything to class balance til we get all classes reworked. With out piercing HR will become a dead class can PVP really afford to loss a Whole Class of player Base. I already see premade after premade daily while getting my Conc shards for my Guild. We finally got To A place where HR had a choice of @ paths and we are not the top DPS in the room the GF and GWF are. So class balance needs to come as a whole to PVP not as a nerf to TR or HR. I would Like to see Piercing replaced but these changes just end the class as a pvp option and the gear gap will even further widen because the BIG BIS with deep pockets will just stack Tenacity. I just play a HR who has spent 2 years in a PVE guild due to friends( which is only reason I stay with this game) but love to PVP I took my beatings daily to get better gear and after a long time I Can hold my one in a 1 vs one but @ 15k IL I am still not the threat that the other classes are at same IL if they know how to build there toon for pvp or have a PVP guild with the boons

    Well .....
    Much of what you write is not wrong in any way but in the perspective of making pvp for all it falls a bit short.

    Piercing nullifies any kind of defence as it is and that negates all classes that want to build defence it just negates to much for to many classes.

    As Kalina pointed out tenacity will be same for all and can not be stacked as it is said now.

    If NW pvp are to move forward an overhaul is needed and removal of things like piercing ( 250k+exe is not fun nm how you put it) is one of the broken things that need to go as the mechanics do more harm then good.

    CC diminish or some form of immunity after beeing cced is also needed, endless repel, smoke-smoke-smoke-smoke-CB-CB_CB or chains of cc until you die is just as boring as 250k exe.

    Evertybody knows it is going to be a LOOOOONG road to fix NW pvp from todays missery but these steps now taken by the devs are indeed promising.

    Myself I also play combat Hr and even if sacrificing piercing in pvp will nerf him to more or less unplayable I do understand that it is a something I have to live with if NW pvp are to move forward (and I do admit seing exe nerfed also helps a bit :-)....
    I Agree with you 100%^ remember I strongly advocated against the piercing to start with HR needed a dps buff not this BS fix but to face CW GF and GWF as BIS with out some way to kill them its good night HR. I would like to see skill matter not just I got more money so I am best because I can afford it. When HR got piercing more entry level players with skill were all of a sudden threats to the old guard and they did not like it. All of pvp is out of balance and to fix one with out the other is a mistake
    and is good to see you again Marnival
  • bvirabvira Posts: 385Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    As far as removing tenacity goes, I don't think it's necessary.

    1) Since arp resist has been removed, people can do substantially more dmg even arp is only 50% effective. On top of that, people will be using PvE gears that have more optimal offensive stats; people will simply melt too quickly.

    2) What would glory do if we don't need gears with tenacity anymore? What about masterwork and SH PvP gears? How do you compensate people for investing enormous amount of money into crafting MW PvP gears that no one needs anymore?

    My suggestions:


    1) Keep tenacity as it is, and just lower the cost of all PvP gears across the board.

    2) Make the queue system better such that the number of lopsided matches would be minimized.
  • treesclimbertreesclimber Posts: 1,161Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    edited June 2017
    alfalolz said:

    alfalolz said:

    clonkyo1 said:

    alfalolz said:


    Why cant GF get his control nurfed, fine leave the damage, remove the control and most prolly they wont be as effective as they are now .... simple thing to fix.

    due a simple and obvious reason: GFs are meant to be TANKS and controllers to get the aggro, not Damage Dealers at all.

    YOU DONT UNDERSTAND ONE THING.

    BULLCHARGE IS PVP SKILL NOT PVE.

    by removing prone control from bullscharge IT WILL NOT EFFECT pve community by any means.
    show me ANY tank that uses bullscharge in PVE dungeon....
    I don't think anyone really wants to remove prone, just the synergy between it, combat advantage, and bull charge raw damage. If it's a proning control power then reduce the damage, that simple. IF they normalize PVE damage with PVP (or whatever the theory is) more damage occurs and satisfies the concern that no one dies...although this the case RIGHT NOW for some classes lol. The same argument applies to trapper HR I would think. I got waxed by a well known trapper HR when he took out most of his enchantments, it was humiliating, and I had to go smoke a J o:) . With T. elven I was HAMSTER. Of course he and some of the other good PVP HR's know their class WAAAAAAY better than the rest of us.
    and frontline surge was once upon a time a prone and became stun in pvp .
    EXACTLY. Back in mod 3, GWF was way too imbalanced becuz of the control and crazy damage.

    Why cant we remove prone from bullcharge and make it a stun at least..... i dont see it to be very difficult thing.

    Bullcharge throws people in the air, making it a stun would be funny, a TR deflects and gets unstuned mid air, hahaha, no way.

    rayrdan said:

    If only boons were an account wide unlock.. After 12 mods is ridicolous to force people to farm multiple campaign multiple times. I have no longer time for all this and i guess this holds true for many

    Totally agree, grinding ToD campain and underdark in 8 classes is just too much.


  • nickjdowenickjdowe Posts: 158Member Arc User
    I do not agree with any form of BOON suppression for PvP. SH or otherwise. Getting your guild to 20 for the boons is the most important aspect of the game since the release of Strongholds. If you can not compete with GH 20 players then you should be either farming DF with your guild or be trying to get recruited into a GH20. Removing the boons from PvP removes any incentive for PvP players to participate in Guild activities. Good luck to any guild that hasn't reached 20 yet getting your PvP members to assist with Dragon Flight. They won't show up.

    Remove Tenacity Gear and implement Base Tenacity stat. Everyone is equal right out the gate. Veterans will not have the advantage of gear over new players.

    Armor Pen Resist is stupid. As stated by many it's just a redundant layer of mitigation.

    Crit hits should not be weaker than non crit hits. This is the big reason why PvE players can't transition to PvP. @xsayajinx1 (hopefully I'm tagging the right person) nailed this topic perfectly. There should be as little a difference between a PvE build and a PvP build as possible to grow the PvP community.

    No class should be given extra base tenacity stats. That's just putting a bandaid on a larger issue.

    Lastly to sum up my feelings on the GWF class. I like the direction @rgutscheradev is going with moving the Unstoppable DR to the second pool. I'm a firm believer that shields for every class that has them should be mathed outside of the other Damage resistance numbers. It's a class feature to have a shield, a dodge, or dash. They should be treated differently than normal DR mechanics. Raising the effectiveness of DR in the first pool would do nothing for the GWF. Currently if a GWF is standing in an Astral shield and has 40% base DR then he is already at the 80% DR cap so popping unstoppable whether it be 35% or 80% would do nothing. Offensively speaking, the biggest issue with GWF is that all of his damage is dependent on stacks. That in my opinion is what broke the other 2 paragon paths. Rather than address that issue the GWF was given higher base weapon damage which opened up more issues. Once players figured out how to keep their stacks up in PvE they became unbalanced. (Easiest way to out DPS a GWF is to beat him to the mobs so his stacks drop, this is also why slow GWFs get out DPS) This was made apparently clear in PvP when GWFs couldn't gain stacks quickly so they are out DPS 'd by most classes. This also caused All GWFs regardless of play style or game mode to be married to Destroyer passive/active. Show me a single build in 4 years that doesn't have Destroyer slotted. Meaning you only have 1 active slot to play with as far as diversity. This same stack mechanic is all over the Destroyer paragon path including the cap stone. I'm not against stacks in general just features that include x% chance to gain a stack. If i land a hit give me the stack.

    I really don't want to turn this into a GWF rework thread but the obvious effects of PvP changes that would effect this class the hardest have to be addressed. The Unstoppable changes are a great first start in my opinion. Unfortunately as a console player I can't test them. Would love to hear some feedback from the PC side on preview on how it's working out.

    Thanks guys.

  • whitestaruawhitestarua Posts: 175Member Arc User
    1st look:
    TR is dead.
  • marnivalmarnival Posts: 1,432Member Arc User
    edited July 2017

    No class should be given extra base tenacity stats. That's just putting a bandaid on a larger issue.


    and then you suggest ;
    I like the direction @rgutscheradev is going with moving the Unstoppable DR to the second pool
    A bit of dubble standard to say the least.

    Show me a single build in 4 years that doesn't have Destroyer slotted

    Eum did you play Gwf during this time and dont know the different meta builds which several did not include destroyer, this build was only popular after the last change to destroyer capstone and path mod 6 or 7 was it.


    I really don't want to turn this into a GWF rework thread but the obvious effects of PvP changes that would effect this class the hardest have to be addressed.

    You could have fooled me, it sure looks that way :smile: ...

    Depending of how arpen works out and how they play 100:1 or 200:2 with it as long as it is easy to negate defense it will give an unfair advantage to light armored classes toward heavy armored classes.
    It will also prevent different builds as it will be pointless to build anything in defence beside deflect.

    Defense will force people to sacrifice crit, power and recovery if they want to build arpen if 5-7k arpen will negate defense it will to easy to get and all will run around with without sacrificing any other stats.

    Removing tenacity from gear and give it to all players I salute it but I do not think it will solve everyting that needs to be fixed in pvp.
    Giving some classes more resist in defence and maby others in cc etc might be a very effective way of dealing with many issues, the important being MIGHT as it need to be tested ofc.

    Class balance is another matter that I leave to the future as it is not even remotely close at this date...
  • ambisinisterrambisinisterr Posts: 10,462Member, Neverwinter Moderator Community Moderator
    alfalolz said:

    YOU DONT UNDERSTAND ONE THING.

    BULLCHARGE IS PVP SKILL NOT PVE.

    by removing prone control from bullscharge IT WILL NOT EFFECT pve community by any means.
    show me ANY tank that uses bullscharge in PVE dungeon....

    Hey there,

    This is your opinion so I won't remove it, as some have requested, but I encourage you to consider this from all angles.

    First of all, there is no such thing as a PvP Power. While some powers may better lend themselves to PvE or PvP due to the limited amount of powers you can choose they are far from exclusive. There are ways to synergise Bull Rush to be quite effective in PvE although arguably not the best choice most times even then. I have put it on, especially when playing as a solo player, to increase survivability in certain situations though mainly because of the CC.

    Secondly, control effects are essential for the way that aggro is generated. If CC was removed from every GF power you would notice a huge difference in the amount of aggro GF's generate and thus they would be far less able to generate aggro let alone survive the aggro they do generate.

    Basically, this is a very slippery slope to say a power is just for PvE or PvP. It's better to use an argument other than labeling certain powers as only being useful in PvP or in PvE especially because the devs do not and will not look at it that way. :)
  • kaudilhokaudilho Posts: 68Member Arc User
    edited July 2017
    plavia said:

    OK, coming to the next build on preview (most likely end of this week):
    * Piercing damage pierces armor (AC and Defense) but not other stuff (like Tenacity).
    * Armor Pen is only 50% effective in PvP.

    I'm still not 100% convinced on the second one -- there are so many other changes that alter what AP will do (fixing the overpenetration bug, the above Piercing changes) -- but the forum consensus is very strong, and I do agree that having a reduced effectiveness provides a gentler ramp to a future world where AP scales at a rate closer to Defense (ie, moving from 100AP:1% to 200 or 300 to 1%).

    If there's still a need for more help to GWFs, one possibility is to make the damage reduction from Unstoppable not count as armor (and hence, like Tenacity, not be penetrated by Armor Piercing) . Note that GWFs are very powerful in PvE, so there's a need to tread cautiously here, but this particular change could add a lot of extra survivability in PvP without affecting PvE too much. It might be right to accompany it with a slight decrease in the extra damage coming from Unstoppable (the total damage amounts we're seeing from GWFs is very high for a class that's much more resistant to damage than most other dps classes -- again, this is particularly true in PvE).

    I want to encourage everyone with strong opinions here to actually test this stuff on preview. The theorycrafting is great and all, but it can only go so far. Part of where you can help us the most is actually trying it out and giving us reports from the front. (That's a big part of the idea behind the private PvP queues.)

    Also, don't forget that a lot of the changes, such as possible CC tweaks, are coming later (ie, we are asking you all earlier, as requested!) and are discussed in the other PvP thread. So please do visit that thread for discussion about future changes. I'll try to keep this thread focused on changes appearing with the upcoming Chult release.

    I didnt understand this change
    now piercing damage is 100%
    with those changes piercing damage will gain extra buff from frost, terror, combustive, ray, divine glow, PoD, Bear of sins, condeming gaze, Marks, pilar of power, wicked reminder, sly flurish...
    but will suffer reduction due to tenacity.
    consider tenacity is hard cap on 50%. with 5K ArP you can nullify it....
    you are buffing piercing damage not making it managable at all

    you try to fix broken mechanics with additional broken patch and it won't work.
    in my opnion there should not be piercing damage at all.
    you want to give them something, make it non defelct damage or 2X more ArP or 2X more crit severity or somethign similar



    before one of the TR will whine "thats the only thing we have", let me make it clear
    SE is not the only damage TR have, they actually have EVERYTHING when it come to PVP.
    they have the best class features and off hand bonus
    they have great at will that can do easy 10K damage if they wish to put bit of ArP
    they have the best daily's by far. SE is one hit kill, CB is crazy strong can not be dodged (only power that can do that), even blood bath is crazy strong and every class will love to have it.
    they have the best powers, smoke bomb is one of the strogest powers (probably astral shield is the only one that can compete with this game breaking), ITC is crazy good and all the other are very good as well
    All this beside the 75% deflect severity, 2X more deflect, shadow stealth, 100% crit in shadow and 3 great paragon paths...

    i woldn't hesitiate before changing the piercing damage
    All good powers that u mentioned are defensive, even bb it does 0 dmg against geared ppl, kill bis playes without se and put it here pls. No send us Stalin's videos from mod 8 when Lol set was something good. Fixing SE is a good thing but turning class in control machine only isn't good.
    2 of 3 tr's paths are dead in premade pvp.
    Harding Grim
    Guild:
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  • icyphishicyphish Posts: 1,255Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    GWF has been 2/3 path dead for like 7 mods and thats for both PvP and PvE :'(
    icydrake%20avatar2_zpsg7rp0xti.jpg

    Author of GWF Speed Demon PvP Build (Mod 11) <- Click to reveal the Speedy Beast! >:)
  • armadeonxarmadeonx Posts: 3,807Member Arc User
    Eh for pvp you have a case but I disagree for pve. Sure, some situations are not optimal but the pve GWF is highly capable.


    Xael De Armadeon: DC
    Xane De Armadeon: CW
    Zen De Armadeon: OP
    Zohar De Armadeon: TR
    Chrion De Armadeon: SW
    Gosti Big Belly: GWF
    Barney McRustbucket: GF
    Lt. Thackeray: HR


  • jhpnwjhpnw Posts: 607Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    kalina311 said:

    jhpnw said:

    kalina311 said:

    @jhpnw lets see ... where to begin with you ... quotes from your thread

    ". Do you really want just BIS in PVP"

    umm this thread is about opening up options for lower barriers to entry/ balance to pvp for there were many suggestions that counter most of your complaints.. where did anybody say they only want bis in pvp in fact many said the opposite

    "Cryptic will not commit the resources to fix things over all SO Why nerf any class right now! Till they can address whole PVP class balance this is just crazy with these"

    there you ask and answer your own question.. they need to make smaller changes first and the dev said more are on the table next mod had you read.... there is one dev trying to help us with this they are low on resources we will take what we can get.. this is a side effect of armor pen fixes and changes in pve as well

    here you say its piercing the only threat to god players ...
    "changes to Piercing you will eliminate the only threats to the God like Bis players which are the ones on this thread

    here you contradict yourself

    " the rest of the HRs just are not that big of a threat to the end game players."

    so this adjustment would only effect a few end game hr s like you crying should balance be based one the few like you or the many ?? in most player eyes YOU are the god like player

    what about the mid and low end hr we want to bring in new player right ? will the piecing as it is be balanced for low and mid ranged pvp i think NOT

    "changes just end the class as a pvp option and the gear gap will even further widen because the BIG BIS with deep pockets will just stack Tenacity"

    tenacity is on the table to be removed / given a base stat to all ... and you cant over stack it anyways . with the most stackable stat armor pen resist (~76%)being removed most player with the 50k hitpoint armor are around 68% at the moment just flat out wrong dude as deep as pockets are you cant just buy more tenacity


    dude you need to read the entire thread and what the dev actually wrote before ranting nonsense

    everybody is going to be more or less squishier next mod with the meta changing to extreme burst damage ...kill or be killed

    you might not be doing as much perceing damage but alot of targets will be squishier as well

    and if the meta of kyte fighting off nodes comes back then you have way more time at range to attack and clear some one off the node without even having to step on it or contest it ...where some classes will be force pinned on the node (no range no gap closers )..or the get off the node and face me or die game meta begins which we have not had for a while

    most non ranged classes are squishier in the new meta with puts ranged at an advantage again to tease and taunt people to go off node... with less risk to you being restricted to fighting in a small space on node

    that was an earlier pvp complaint/ meta problem less geared class with good attack power ranging and chipping away at health off node or up on the balconies at range ..anoying but effective sometimes

    so even if piecing is halved at range you get in 2 or 3 more rotation to targets that cant reach you .. with reduced armor pen resistance now ... or go in to sacrifice yourself 2 v 1and kill one bis player and then be taken out by the second

    so in short piecing needs to be nerfed as a side effect of changes
    you dont seem to be complain that trs got piecing nerfed

    so in summary
    you just dont want it adjusted so you can kill a few high end pvp players that are like less then 1% of the population that you may have a personal vendetta with

    the needs of the many out weigh the needs of the few to quote spock

    in the meantime just drink like 20 pvp potions to counter the nerf lol

    you would not say this if they only had just nerfed CW
    oh wow what a great come back lol really nice try ..

    oh yes I would all 100% of it if they just nerfed Cw too for the good of the game I welcome playing the weakest class and still dominating I have screen shot and proof of leaderboard ranking playing a weak CW class in old mods by the way if you want to go there., ... lol do you know how many times cw got nerfed and i played the weakest class and adapted

    do you actually think a fully geared cw can kill any other BIS class .... umm nope we have less damage then a combat hr ... next mod we get seaminly a dps increase cause targets get softer

    do you see me complaining about my class umm nope I adapted ... there are more HR on the top leaderboard then Cws what does that say

    you still did not mention how you were in error about bis players stacking tenacity .admit it... but agreed 100% with what marnival said .. one things of which was he commented on was that you were wrong about tenacity as per my post

    you also did not address how other classes got squishier as well anyways thanks for your feedback ..or lack of it nice try on derailment and changing the subject

    i still stand by my tactical analysis of ranged vs not as well

    if you dont want to have a balanced discussion and are intimidated and want to write a 1 line reply then dont bother ..

    go ahead try to find and lookup some forums post of me whining and complaining like a baby when they made changes to the cw class for the good of the game ... when they forced a choice between single target damage and aoe damage for example ...but you dont like examples so i guess we are done here

    an expert player will always play a class expertly/ adapt regardless of nerfs
    Please dont take this the wrong way I meant no ill will. Maybe you misunderstood my reply so I will try. To fix any 1 thing with out fixing all is a waste of time over and over they drop band aids mess up things and then its years before it get addressed if ever. classes live and die HR and TR are very annoying and I would love to see pvp booming and would gladlly giver up piercing for a small dps boost and to hold my own in a 1vs one. CW is the most annoying class in game to a HR not TR but please don't take that as a personal thing against u it was not meant that way. What if they did away with your CC and repell. ands made CW a dead pvp class would u say that its fine because more will now play since I'm no longer annoying. there should be a way for all to play. My attempt was to say lets bite the bullet and make pvp a great thing not just another finger in the leaking wall. If you nerf the most player base like TR and you lose them all due to they feel the class is worthless how does it help pvp if you lose that may players?

    Just so you know my ist GG pvp match I died from you pushing me to the spikes. From that Match on I was hooked on PVP so BIS players are not always a bad thing they are some times an inspiration to make a person better and its been a long up hill battle to get there and I think BIS players that worked there way to the top deserve it and I strive to be the best I can be and an expert HR same as any good player
    Ara
  • ejziponkenejziponken Posts: 887Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    edited July 2017

    OK, coming to the next build on preview (most likely end of this week):
    * Piercing damage pierces armor (AC and Defense) but not other stuff (like Tenacity).
    * Armor Pen is only 50% effective in PvP.

    I'm still not 100% convinced on the second one -- there are so many other changes that alter what AP will do (fixing the overpenetration bug, the above Piercing changes) -- but the forum consensus is very strong, and I do agree that having a reduced effectiveness provides a gentler ramp to a future world where AP scales at a rate closer to Defense (ie, moving from 100AP:1% to 200 or 300 to 1%).

    If there's still a need for more help to GWFs, one possibility is to make the damage reduction from Unstoppable not count as armor (and hence, like Tenacity, not be penetrated by Armor Piercing) . Note that GWFs are very powerful in PvE, so there's a need to tread cautiously here, but this particular change could add a lot of extra survivability in PvP without affecting PvE too much. It might be right to accompany it with a slight decrease in the extra damage coming from Unstoppable (the total damage amounts we're seeing from GWFs is very high for a class that's much more resistant to damage than most other dps classes -- again, this is particularly true in PvE).

    I want to encourage everyone with strong opinions here to actually test this stuff on preview. The theorycrafting is great and all, but it can only go so far. Part of where you can help us the most is actually trying it out and giving us reports from the front. (That's a big part of the idea behind the private PvP queues.)

    Also, don't forget that a lot of the changes, such as possible CC tweaks, are coming later (ie, we are asking you all earlier, as requested!) and are discussed in the other PvP thread. So please do visit that thread for discussion about future changes. I'll try to keep this thread focused on changes appearing with the upcoming Chult release.

    There are many opinions on what changes has to be made but there is one thing I think all of us agree on, and that is that the piercing damage changes in the latest patch has to be reverted. This change is GOOD, but it has to come with class changes for the TR and the HR to keep the damage builds viable.

    With the latest build on PTR both the TR and HR are forced to play control builds and trust me, this is superbad for PvP. We need less control, not more.

    Revert:
    * Piercing damage pierces armor (AC and Defense) but not other stuff (like Tenacity).

    This fix was ment for later on. For the bigger PvP changes.

    ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ ▇ █ Gankdalf The Icehole █ ▇ ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁

  • ayrouxayroux Posts: 4,271Member Arc User



    There are many opinions on what changes has to be made but there is one thing I think all of us agree on, and that is that the piercing damage changes in the latest patch has to be reverted. This change is GOOD, but it has to come with class changes for the TR and the HR to keep the damage builds viable.

    With the latest build on PTR both the TR and HR are forced to play control builds and trust me, this is superbad for PvP. We need less control, not more.

    Revert:
    * Piercing damage pierces armor (AC and Defense) but not other stuff (like Tenacity).

    This fix was ment for later on. For the bigger PvP changes.

    Yeah I think at this point, if these are ALL the changes we get this module for PVP, the piercing thing has to be reverted. HR and TR just had their damage EVISCERATED to the point they cant clear anything. Which ultimately means they will both try and spec a "cancerous" CC spec in which itll just be stalemate city all over again.

    So ONE approach is to table this piercing rework (which is a good one mind you) for next module until HR/TR can be given BACK their damage elsewhere.

    Another potential approach, would be to take 1 or 2 more steps towards the "goal" of PVP reworks by doing something like - HALVING Crit resist (to ~20%).

    Right now Piercing went from 100% damage down to: 100% * (1-40%) * (1-40%) = 36% damage on crits.
    So things like SE were nerfed by 64%!!!!

    I think its unanimous that crit resist is broken, in the sense that its silly to have on its own multiplicative layer - which HURTS crit classes (like TR) the most.

    I have suggested removing Crit Resist and instead having crit resist apply on the "Crit Severity" layer of the crit formula. Something LIKE:
    Crit Severity * (1-crit resist) and REMOVING Crit Resist as another layer.

    This would be a much better step.

    A 250k SE on live, is now a 90k SE on the PTR. Doing the above (adjusting the severity) would mean that 90k would turn into a ~116k SE. Which is a nice bump to SE damage.

    Just a thought. We can take a step back, which MIGHT be best for just this module until a better rework, or we can take another step forward.
  • rayrdanrayrdan Posts: 5,410Member Arc User
    after 5 hours of testing these changes have 0 sense.
    the two hardest hitting classes in pvp are now gfs (as always) and....PALADINS....ffs
  • mauriziobmauriziob Posts: 16Member Arc User
    Even though i am a paladin, i want to give my solidarity to the TR. The nerf on SE is absolutely ridiculous!
    Must be modified
  • alfalolzalfalolz Posts: 161Member Arc User

    alfalolz said:

    YOU DONT UNDERSTAND ONE THING.

    BULLCHARGE IS PVP SKILL NOT PVE.

    by removing prone control from bullscharge IT WILL NOT EFFECT pve community by any means.
    show me ANY tank that uses bullscharge in PVE dungeon....

    Hey there,

    This is your opinion so I won't remove it, as some have requested, but I encourage you to consider this from all angles.

    First of all, there is no such thing as a PvP Power. While some powers may better lend themselves to PvE or PvP due to the limited amount of powers you can choose they are far from exclusive. There are ways to synergise Bull Rush to be quite effective in PvE although arguably not the best choice most times even then. I have put it on, especially when playing as a solo player, to increase survivability in certain situations though mainly because of the CC.

    Secondly, control effects are essential for the way that aggro is generated. If CC was removed from every GF power you would notice a huge difference in the amount of aggro GF's generate and thus they would be far less able to generate aggro let alone survive the aggro they do generate.

    Basically, this is a very slippery slope to say a power is just for PvE or PvP. It's better to use an argument other than labeling certain powers as only being useful in PvP or in PvE especially because the devs do not and will not look at it that way. :)
    Dear Sir,

    Im speaking as of pvp community.

    Im not talking about every GF's aggro and control ability. Im talking about bullcharge which is used MOSTLY in pvp and prone effect from it is just causing SOO MUCH of a disbalance towards ather classes. Not only it has a HUGE burst damage but it also has prone effect that makes a player stay on the ground and recieve 1-2 battle hits (AND MOST of the GF abilities are hitting REALLY hard. thus making A SUPPORT "TANK" class being BEST pvp class in game. Best dodge in game "Shield which has 100% uptime, bullcharge which is imo best prone in game that actually DOES dmg. Best dailies dmg nor defencing, Has a speed and dmg baff.... and i can contitue onwards. Im not even saying that this class HAS got its base damage increased and IS higher that other classes.

    Dear Cryptic Community Moderator. Try queuing in pvp vs Ryц (on his GF) try duelling vs GF classes and YOU WILL understand our PVP community feeling. Being 2 shotted by Support class in 15 seconds is no fun. Its nice that piercing got fixed for TR and HR - now its time to fix EITHER damage or control effect from GF. thats totally unacceptable.

    Im sorry if im being rude or something. But ive been playing since Mod2 on Rus server and pvping ever since then. Its just a cry from the inside.

    Hopefully game developers will look INTO GF PVP abilities that are OVER OVER OVER powered for a SUPPORT CLASS.
  • bvirabvira Posts: 385Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    edited July 2017
    Did some testings today and the formulas are so much simpler now:

    Non crit formula = TenDR+(1-TenDR)*(DR-Attacker's Arp/2)

    Crit formula = TenDR+(1-TenDR)*(DR-Attacker's Arp/2)+CritR*(1-TenDR)

    The major difference now is that no matter how high your arpen is, the base Tenacity DR cannot be mitigated where in the past you could.

    [LINK] Spreadsheet for test results.
  • treesclimbertreesclimber Posts: 1,161Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    edited July 2017

    No way, Piercing is fixed, you cried FOR YEARS for piercing to be fixed. Now, you want it unfixed. Just lulz.

    The changes done are good, if anything from now on needs to be changed is within the classes, specially TR that is cornered on courage breaker.

    PS: I HATE COURAGE BREAKER *GROWLS*

  • nickjdowenickjdowe Posts: 158Member Arc User
    marnival said:


    No class should be given extra base tenacity stats. That's just putting a bandaid on a larger issue.


    and then you suggest ;
    I like the direction @rgutscheradev is going with moving the Unstoppable DR to the second pool
    A bit of dubble standard to say the least.

    Show me a single build in 4 years that doesn't have Destroyer slotted

    Eum did you play Gwf during this time and dont know the different meta builds which several did not include destroyer, this build was only popular after the last change to destroyer capstone and path mod 6 or 7 was it.


    I really don't want to turn this into a GWF rework thread but the obvious effects of PvP changes that would effect this class the hardest have to be addressed.

    You could have fooled me, it sure looks that way :smile: ...

    Depending of how arpen works out and how they play 100:1 or 200:2 with it as long as it is easy to negate defense it will give an unfair advantage to light armored classes toward heavy armored classes.
    It will also prevent different builds as it will be pointless to build anything in defence beside deflect.

    Defense will force people to sacrifice crit, power and recovery if they want to build arpen if 5-7k arpen will negate defense it will to easy to get and all will run around with without sacrificing any other stats.

    Removing tenacity from gear and give it to all players I salute it but I do not think it will solve everyting that needs to be fixed in pvp.
    Giving some classes more resist in defence and maby others in cc etc might be a very effective way of dealing with many issues, the important being MIGHT as it need to be tested ofc.

    Class balance is another matter that I leave to the future as it is not even remotely close at this date...


    1.. Putting Unstoppable DR % in the second pool is not giving one class more base tenacity. It's giving a class that does not have a dodge mechanic or an immunity frame a functioning shield at a paltry 35% for 8 seconds. By doing this you can avoid having to adjust base tenacity stats for specific classes.

    2.. Um yes I have played the GWF since day one. The intimidation build from the sentinel path was nerfed in mod 5. That build was only viable during a very limited time and was fixed. Instigator was never viable. Destroyer has been the go to since the beginning and is still the only option today. Destroyer/Wrathful Determination, Destroyer/Steel Blitz, Destroyer/Weapon Master, Destroyer/Bravery for your 2 actives. This has always been the case. That's because the class is built on stacks to deal damage. Even without the destroyer cap stone the active is still good.

    3.. I'm just going to skip this

    I'm not sure where you're going with some of these opinions or statements. I'm not sure if you're for or against them? I'm of the group that would like to see as little difference as possible between PvE and PvP. So no I wouldn't like to see people adjusting stats harshly to meet soft cap requirements for one or the other. 80% is the hard cap for DR. So in my opinion ArP should also cap at 80%. This falls inline with the new PvE changes to 75% RI for the new content. Allow Tenacity to reduce player damage in its own pool. Over stacking ArP for the last few mods in order to get over multiple layers of tenacity and mitigation is what was the problem. Now that some of those layers are being looked at we can start lowering our ArP and keeping our PvE and PvP builds much closer.

    I have not seen or tested the changes to ArP if they are going from 100:1 to a 200:1 or higher because I'm not on preview. I don't have an issue with this because it could help with the power creep. I'd rather sacrifice power for ArP than any other stat.
  • wintermurlocwintermurloc Posts: 106Member Arc User
    And here we go, back at square one.. The problems with gf's stem from things most ppl don't understand and hence they make these suggestions to neuter the effect and luckily thanks to these so called suggestions from the prior balance threads on Gf's, we have reached this point which is pretty awesome ;) , Gf's have gone through a lot of changes in the recent past as compared to other classes and no matter what its going to only affect gf's positively and while this thread was meant to solve one small aspect that was overpowering in general and gwfs were going to get the shorthand on it, it was crystal clear that the initial change called for a class balance change at the earliest for gwf's and tr's who have been waiting an eternity to find better pastures than running the troll comps or lets just say the current meta as ppl would like it. @rgutscheradev, take a stand and do what you initially wanted to do.. All of the rest is better suited at class balance changes (proper class balance changes and not band aid fixes)
  • josiahiyonjosiahiyon Posts: 396Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    Thanks for posting that data @bvira. I bounced my updated formulas up against your data, and confirmed they are still accurate. However, I don't think your conclusion is correct.

    "The major difference now is that no matter how high your arpen is, the base Tenacity DR cannot be mitigated where in the past you could."

    The conclusion should be, from what i can tell:
    (1) arpen tenacity is set to 50% on the ptr for all toons
    (2) the bug fix is working -- can no longer bring players below 0% dr

    These are the only things that have changed in my live vs ptr formulas, and my ptr formula perfectly reproduces your test results. Furthermore, it is exactly what @rgutscheradev said he was implementing.

    Maybe your conclusion is the same and I am just misinterpreting it. Not sure.
    Pvpbysynergy.png
    Iyon the Dark
  • mamalion1234mamalion1234 Posts: 3,218Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    kalina311 said:

    @jhpnw said..

    +1

    "Just so you know my ist GG pvp match I died from you pushing me to the spikes. From that Match on I was hooked on PVP so BIS players are not always a bad thing they are some times an inspiration to make a person better and its been a long up hill battle to get there and I think BIS players that worked there way to the top deserve it and I strive to be the best I can be and an expert HR same as any good player
    Ara"
    well said

    brought a tear to my eye + 1 especially this "Just so you know my ist GG pvp match I died from you pushing me to the spikes"


    as for "What if they did away with your CC and repell" is still in the catagory and is like saying of what if they nerfed aspects of your class that you like to use ... and yes they have nerfed aspects i like to use and i adapted

    however my current loadout does not rely on cc and if they nerfed repel or added more cool down (it would still probably push just not as far

    i / a player would just have to get strategically closer cut the angles more (skill) if not speced into cc
    or i would use use ray of enfeeblement : D

    however if certain player classes can be cleared easier offensively in the new mod the defensive stale mate meta of a cw always using repel on the point goes away / out of favor cause you dont want to push peope out of range of your teams dpsers on the point if people die in fewer hits and you dont ewan tot help people escape by repeling them

    repel actually can sometime help the enemy by pushing them out of range then thier cooldown have more time to go down / set up for a combo

    THE most anger for the repel coming from classes used to apply their "super powers" when a cw is not around to stop them.
    1: devoted cleric astral shields gift of faith.
    2: hunter roots micro dazes.
    3: hunter piercing.
    i Havent see yet a great weapon fighter-gf-sw-tr-paladin say something about repel.
  • dr4g0nst33ldr4g0nst33l Posts: 8Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    plavia said:

    OK, coming to the next build on preview (most likely end of this week):
    * Piercing damage pierces armor (AC and Defense) but not other stuff (like Tenacity).
    * Armor Pen is only 50% effective in PvP.

    I'm still not 100% convinced on the second one -- there are so many other changes that alter what AP will do (fixing the overpenetration bug, the above Piercing changes) -- but the forum consensus is very strong, and I do agree that having a reduced effectiveness provides a gentler ramp to a future world where AP scales at a rate closer to Defense (ie, moving from 100AP:1% to 200 or 300 to 1%).

    If there's still a need for more help to GWFs, one possibility is to make the damage reduction from Unstoppable not count as armor (and hence, like Tenacity, not be penetrated by Armor Piercing) . Note that GWFs are very powerful in PvE, so there's a need to tread cautiously here, but this particular change could add a lot of extra survivability in PvP without affecting PvE too much. It might be right to accompany it with a slight decrease in the extra damage coming from Unstoppable (the total damage amounts we're seeing from GWFs is very high for a class that's much more resistant to damage than most other dps classes -- again, this is particularly true in PvE).

    I want to encourage everyone with strong opinions here to actually test this stuff on preview. The theorycrafting is great and all, but it can only go so far. Part of where you can help us the most is actually trying it out and giving us reports from the front. (That's a big part of the idea behind the private PvP queues.)

    Also, don't forget that a lot of the changes, such as possible CC tweaks, are coming later (ie, we are asking you all earlier, as requested!) and are discussed in the other PvP thread. So please do visit that thread for discussion about future changes. I'll try to keep this thread focused on changes appearing with the upcoming Chult release.

    I didnt understand this change
    now piercing damage is 100%
    with those changes piercing damage will gain extra buff from frost, terror, combustive, ray, divine glow, PoD, Bear of sins, condeming gaze, Marks, pilar of power, wicked reminder, sly flurish...
    but will suffer reduction due to tenacity.
    consider tenacity is hard cap on 50%. with 5K ArP you can nullify it....
    you are buffing piercing damage not making it managable at all

    you try to fix broken mechanics with additional broken patch and it won't work.
    in my opnion there should not be piercing damage at all.
    you want to give them something, make it non defelct damage or 2X more ArP or 2X more crit severity or somethign similar



    before one of the TR will whine "thats the only thing we have", let me make it clear
    SE is not the only damage TR have, they actually have EVERYTHING when it come to PVP.
    they have the best class features and off hand bonus
    they have great at will that can do easy 10K damage if they wish to put bit of ArP
    they have the best daily's by far. SE is one hit kill, CB is crazy strong can not be dodged (only power that can do that), even blood bath is crazy strong and every class will love to have it.
    they have the best powers, smoke bomb is one of the strogest powers (probably astral shield is the only one that can compete with this game breaking), ITC is crazy good and all the other are very good as well
    All this beside the 75% deflect severity, 2X more deflect, shadow stealth, 100% crit in shadow and 3 great paragon paths...

    i woldn't hesitiate before changing the piercing damage
    Are u serious?
    Did u tested TR on PTR?
    Because right now can just spam CB, BB and smoke and cannot kill anyone (just GF,using CB BB , dazing strike and flurry after several time, not realistic in premade) and the class is destroyed (i spoke Bis vs Bis and vs real player not n00bs). They should nerf CB at the top like 1 every 30 seconds but not piercing because right now TR do like 60k in best rotations and then comes healing so 20 min of combat for nothing.
    I can still farm pugs like u probably but is not the point. And if in the future they also nerf control TR is totally trash.
    And answer this: without piercing who will kill OP and DC? good luck with that!

    In PVP people must kill and be killed so if u wanna nerf something nerf the healing not the damage, is just stupid and that for every class! If you like the pvp to end with 0 kill the one in PTR now is the way and sooner or later people will stop playing, its already happened before in mod 7-8-9-10 until relic weapons.

    P:S: Nerf damage is never the way for balance is just the way for loosing players...







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