@rgutscheradev What are the other things considered like tenacity? Are now buffs affecting that damage like you wanted to by the way? I also play pve and i would prefer this new piercing version if the damage value can be boosted.
Also: is tenacity as a global buff something we can expect for mod 12? Im excited to have a reason to farm pve gear and being able to wear it everywhere. For now prestige set is the only set i use.
General thought: this will cut in half HR damage and more than half TR damage. A way to let piercing damage work like all other sources of damage is now needed. Be also careful to what changes you make to GWF. Right now the only two classes able to kill it are getting a hard nerf. History teaches that every change to the GWF class can lead to esponential increase in their performances. It s hard to just tweak them.
Lets try not to get out of hands with biased information.
Trying to say that Gwf is weak and useless in pvp is stretching it to say the least. Not having a dodge when it comes to tr exe sure, before change against hr piercing sure(even if you are far from alone in this).
Gf having far more damage then gwf is a dowright lie and the only reason gf can preform better is due to cc chain with high burst damage AFTER building stacks and marking target (yea it takes some time for gf to build stack to get full burst also).
Now block is superior when it comes to tanking but then again unstoppable is superior when it comes to cc resist and being able to actually be able to fight.
Gwf has a huge advantage when it comes to regaining life due to lifesteal and unstoppable compared to gfs not to mention being able to run away and reg up hp much due to stable boons and other boons/artifacts/potions etc.
We all know there is no crowd that can scream higher when it comes to their class then gwfs bar maby cws :-) those bis gwfs ingame hardly does poor in pvp any way what so ever exept in bis premade vs bis premade and again they are far from alone in that.
There are some dissadvantage to the gwf class but you seem to forget all that is good for them handing over a picture of a class in sorry state which everybody knows is far from the truth.
Cut piercing in half make arpen 200:1 which will increase gwfs survivability further and am pretty sure testing this before you ask for more is probably a good thing.
When it comes to cc DEVS you need to handle at least spamming Dailies like CB - Exe and a few others. With pve armor and recovery builds around 20k will become common for those that want to more or less spam encounters/dailies and I would STRONGLY recomend some devs to see for themself wha that does in hands of perma Trs with endless cc spam.
Looking forward to test new stuff hopefully with some devs present .....
I tend to agree on the over-selling of GWF being weak. Top kills on LB, GWF. I think after years of unfair fights, when you find a fair fight, you will scream. This seems to be the case on this post. But, in a zero dmg resist world, those with shields will be the winners. That is why what is on preview now can't go live.
Fair enough unstoppable need to break CB at least also... If they cut piercing with 50% combat Hr is history when it comes to being a threat to Gwfs (cant see them being much of a threat to any class with 50% less damage). If the new tenacity gives a 50% base resist and arpen is 200:1 as said earlier it takes 7 k arpen just to negate 30% from unstoppable add some 30-40 % on that it might be so that you need to skip crit and power to focus on arpen making some classes drop damage significant.
Lets test this new stuff out on preview ( I be there when they land with pal gf and hr) and then come back with more hard facts.
Pve armor will increase stats quite alot but 50% less damage from piercing will be hard to compensate imo, do not know what they did to crit severity though but if you have to focus on arpen as Hr you will loose out tons of damage on either crit or power..
Note that GWFs are very powerful in PvE, so there's a need to tread cautiously here, but this particular change could add a lot of extra survivability in PvP without affecting PvE too much. It might be right to accompany it with a slight decrease in the extra damage coming from Unstoppable (the total damage amounts we're seeing from GWFs is very high for a class that's much more resistant to damage than most other dps classes -- again, this is particularly true in PvE).
Somewhat off-topic because it's PvE, and I don't have access to the numbers you do, but in PvE melee damage has become so high that any non-tank damage resistance is largely irreverent. And GWF doesn't have dodge or Impossible to Catch or Fox's Cunning. Finally, other classes have degrees of support functions in addition to their DPS while the GWF very much has nothing besides DPS to bring to the table.
Update: I second everything that lazaroth666 said.
@ayroux Sprint rework based on deflect imho is not good. And not good The sprint---> PC change. Reasons:1) a sprint difensive mechanic based on deflect is unreliable, unlike dodges. Better make sprint DR unpierceable. 2) GWF is The easier class To Kite if the enemy knows how to fight. No cc chains like Gf or auto Gap closing Powers like Gf, all Powers are melee range With no auto aim and landing ibs requires way more skill than any power of any other class (unless you go for a cc daily+ibs rotation). Compare with any other class. GWFs rely on limited post-nerf threat rush, daily+ibs rotation, and ss spam. Sprint for GWF is key. Make It like PC, And any class Will kite you Even more easily imho.
I'd say just make sprint DR on a different layer, with full determination build up when hit during sprint. Balance the rest of gwf survivability around this simple mechanic. Increase sprint DR on sentinel.
@marnival: ayroux talked about high end pvp. Leaderboard is about pug pvp where bis GWFs Can Kill a Lot. GWF is all about ilvl. Reason: class got the worst mechanics. Low ilvl gwfs are the easiest class to Kill. It's a fact imho. Where Even a low ilvl cw can rely on dodges, repels and skill to supporto a team, a low ilvl gwf is a free Kill. And is the most kitable class. A low ilvl SW can rely on range auto-aim, soul Sparks Self heal and immunity frame. My low ilvl trapper survives a lot thanks to timed dodges and timed interrupts which also help the team with healers. Plus it has auto-aim Powers And ranged Powers. A low ilvl gwf gets on a Point And dies in seconds. No Matter how skilled. when people say gwf is The most gear-hungry class, there is a reason. It says a Lot about how bad are The mechanics and foundations of The class.
When gwf got overnerfed in mod 4 And we said it was an overnerf, people said At first what You guys say now: gwfs cry too much. When It became Clear that We were right, The answer was: "Who cares, their time To get wrecked". Remember it? I do. Now, 8 modules later, We still have the same nerfs in pvp, plus other classes' buffs that made most gwf mechanics obsolete. The class needs proper And reliable mechanics. It 's strong in pve, But in pvp only veterans use The class with decent results.
@rgutscheradev With next updata we will make many tests and videos.
I need to post them here?
P.S.: somebody knows how to kill 250k+ HP 50%+ def DC after future changes? P.P.S: SE of TR with many buffs atm ~400k -> after changes -> 400*0.55*0.55 ~120k damage LOL. P.P.P.S: i think that some part of this changes Will have a bad effect on "cap premade fights".
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gabrieldourdenMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,212Arc User
If there's still a need for more help to GWFs, one possibility is to make the damage reduction from Unstoppable not count as armor (and hence, like Tenacity, not be penetrated by Armor Piercing) . Note that GWFs are very powerful in PvE, so there's a need to tread cautiously here, but this particular change could add a lot of extra survivability in PvP without affecting PvE too much. It might be right to accompany it with a slight decrease in the extra damage coming from Unstoppable (the total damage amounts we're seeing from GWFs is very high for a class that's much more resistant to damage than most other dps classes -- again, this is particularly true in PvE).
@rgutscheradev You can't really expect an unbiased suggestion about changing the PvE side of the GWF in this thread in which the majority is clearly PvP focused. There's a huge misconception about how "powerful" is the GWF in high-end PvE because others classes are able to deal the same or even higher damage output in comparison. It is very important to keep in mind that they barely offer anything useful to any group besides damage. Negligible buffs/debuffs or any additional benefit for the party in any dungeon while other classes can offer better buffs/debuffs and CC. If you reduce the damage of the GWF in PvE, there's absolutely no point in taking them to a dungeon when another class can offer much more. It is not fair to say that the GWF is dealing a very high damage while being very resilient at the same time because the other dps classes have their own efective defensive layer which is "distance or range" so while they can kite and deal damage at the same time, the GWF have to hold his position as close to enemy as possible. This would lead to the point where ranged classes would be more powerful and resistant than the melee classes which is exactly what you are trying to avoid. I can go on but you get the idea.
The suggestion about a small rework on Focused Destroyer is mediocre (I mean no offense). The GWF Destroyer PvE can build stacks inmediately so that change would be barely noticeable and it will affect enormously his damage output vs elite/brute enemies where the stacks (increased damage) really matter. @rgutscheradev as you can easily notice, it is a change meant to be useful only for PvP, nerfing the GWF PvE damage which is exactly what I mentioned in my first paragraph. Both PvE and PvP don't need to be in-line, due to many different circunstances or situations the mechanics of the class will behave in a different way. A smarter approach would be to modify the duration of the stacks according to the number of enemies. Increased duration of the stacks if there's only 1 enemy and reduce 1 second for every additional nearby enemy up to 5 seconds, this means that the stacks would require a base duration of 9 seconds which should greatly help in PvP without having a huge impact the PvE side.
Ehm, not exactly. Other DPS classes have to be heavily involved in melee too. I play a Trapper HR and a large part of the damage is melee based anyway (Plant Growth, Gushing Wound), TRs have flurry, CWs need to be in melee for Icy Terrain... .
PvE GWFs outperform everybody else damage-wise as far as I can see . All the speedruns I see on these forums are done with a GWF as main DPS. It would be very interesting to have speedrun comparisons with the usual GF,OP,2 DC buffing team and GF conq, GWF, HR, TR, CW and SW as main DPS to get a good understanding of what real capabilities are. Say first ramp of FBI for mobs and Turtle/Drufi for single target.
Le-Shan: HR level 80 (main)
Born of Black Wind: SW Level 80
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thefabricantMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 5,248Arc User
edited June 2017
All this reads to me as, is people wanting pvp to be a game where nobody can kill anybody else. Lets say all damage mitigation sources add and that arp is on a 300:1 curve and then look at a very real example (which currently exists) and then think about that example existing for every class.
Lets look at a hypothetical situation with 300:1 arp, devoted cleric that stacks DR to like 12-16k on gear (guild boon, defense mount, some random other sources of defense), then the rest of their stats they can put into whatever they like:
Hallowed ground: +35% DR. Astral Shield: +40% DR. Divine Glow: 17.5%
30-40%+35%+40%+17.5%+20% = 122.5%-132.5%.
So, in order to deal normal damage vs this DC in pvp, you need to stack 122.5%-132.5% RI and we are only looking at a few sources of DR. In order for your outgoing damage to be at more than 20% effectiveness, you need more than 42.5%-52.5% RI, just for your damage to START increasing.
With 300:1 arp that means you need 12750-15750 Arp. This is how much you would have to stack for your damage to even start increasing. Or lets say arp is 200:1, then you need 80500-10500 for your damage to start increasing. Otherwise in this situation, you will always hit for 1/5th effectiveness. If this DC had 150k HP, this would give them an effective life pool of 750k. Have fun killing them.
All this really does is make pvp something completely out of range for lower geared players, as you need excessive amounts of a single stat to deal any damage.
All this reads to me as, is people wanting pvp to be a game where nobody can kill anybody else. Lets say all damage mitigation sources add and that arp is on a 300:1 curve and then look at a very real example (which currently exists) and then think about that example existing for every class.
Lets look at a hypothetical situation with 300:1 arp, devoted cleric that stacks DR to like 12-16k on gear (guild boon, defense mount, some random other sources of defense), then the rest of their stats they can put into whatever they like:
Hallowed ground: +35% DR. Astral Shield: +40% DR. Divine Glow: 17.5%
Then add in your 20% base 20% tenacity DR.
30-40%+35%+40%+17.5%+20% = 142.5%-152.5%.
So, in order to deal normal damage vs this DC in pvp, you need to stack 142.5%-152.5% RI and we are only looking at a few sources of DR. In order for your outgoing damage to be at more than 20% effectiveness, you need more than 62.5%-72.5% RI, just for your damage to START increasing.
With 300:1 arp that means you need 18750-21750 Arp. This is how much you would have to stack for your damage to even start increasing. Or lets say arp is 200:1, then you need 12500-14500 for your damage to start increasing. Otherwise in this situation, you will always hit for 1/5th effectiveness. If this DC had 150k HP, this would give them an effective life pool of 750k. Have fun killing them.
All this really does is make pvp something completely out of range for lower geared players, as you need excessive amounts of a single stat to deal any damage.
That doesn't even factor in deflection, which can go below the 20% effectiveness mark and is calculated after DR. How would deflection even just add to DR anyways? That seems kind of odd.
What's weird is right now ARP in PVP (on live) IS 400:1!!..... yet somehow people still die... including DCs too. You guys might find it hard to believe that someone who doesn't stack 200%+ RI can kill a DC, but the trick is to CC them out of things like AS
So a 300:1 is even less than LIVE...
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josiahiyonMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 396Arc User
edited June 2017
> @ayroux said: > What's weird is right now ARP in PVP (on live) IS 400:1!!..... yet somehow people still die... including DCs too. You guys might find it hard to believe that someone who doesn't stack 200%+ RI can kill a DC, but the trick is to CC them out of things like AS > > So a 300:1 is even less than LIVE...
That's correct. The proposed 50% RI suppression will increase damage on tanky targets like dc, op, gwf. It will also buff EHP of new players without tenacity.
The biggest proposed damage nerfs are the bug fix and making tenacity impact piercing. The bug fix helps new players and low dr classes by making them more tanky. The piercing change hurts tr and hr and helps everyone else.
> What's weird is right now ARP in PVP (on live) IS 400:1!!..... yet somehow people still die... including DCs too. You guys might find it hard to believe that someone who doesn't stack 200%+ RI can kill a DC, but the trick is to CC them out of things like AS
>
> So a 300:1 is even less than LIVE...
That's correct. The proposed 50% RI suppression will increase damage on tanky targets like dc, op, gwf. It will also buff EHP of new players without tenacity.
The biggest proposed damage nerfs are the bug fix and making tenacity impact piercing. The bug fix helps new players and low dr classes by making them more tanky. The piercing change hurts tr and hr and helps everyone else.
I'll post a simple guide tonight.
Low dr classes arent supposed to be tanky thats why they have so many great abilities already to make up for it.
Only classes Im worried about with this update is the GWF and SW like usual we will probably get the short end of the stick.
Find me in game if you want and send me a domination/ gaunt invite. If you are good and im not busy ill play with you. Im not an elitist ill play with almost anyone.
@rgutscheradev With next updata we will make many tests and videos.
I need to post them here?
P.S.: somebody knows how to kill 250k+ HP 50%+ def DC after future changes? P.P.S: SE of TR with many buffs atm ~400k -> after changes -> 400*0.55*0.55 ~120k damage LOL. P.P.P.S: i think that some part of this changes Will have a bad effect on "cap premade fights".
Simple just buff GWF's so we are actually top DPS like we are supposed to be able BAM we kill the DC's lol. trs wont be happy but hey everyone has their 6 mods in the spotlight dont they.
Find me in game if you want and send me a domination/ gaunt invite. If you are good and im not busy ill play with you. Im not an elitist ill play with almost anyone.
Sprint rework based on deflect imho is not good. And not good The sprint---> PC change. Reasons:1) a sprint difensive mechanic based on deflect is unreliable, unlike dodges. Better make sprint DR unpierceable. 2) GWF is The easier class To Kite if the enemy knows how to fight. No cc chains like Gf or auto Gap closing Powers like Gf, all Powers are melee range With no auto aim and landing ibs requires way more skill than any power of any other class (unless you go for a cc daily+ibs rotation). Compare with any other class. GWFs rely on limited post-nerf threat rush, daily+ibs rotation, and ss spam. Sprint for GWF is key. Make It like PC, And any class Will kite you Even more easily imho.
I'd say just make sprint DR on a different layer, with full determination build up when hit during sprint. Balance the rest of gwf survivability around this simple mechanic. Increase sprint DR on sentinel.
@marnival: ayroux talked about high end pvp. Leaderboard is about pug pvp where bis GWFs Can Kill a Lot. GWF is all about ilvl. Reason: class got the worst mechanics. Low ilvl gwfs are the easiest class to Kill. It's a fact imho. Where Even a low ilvl cw can rely on dodges, repels and skill to supporto a team, a low ilvl gwf is a free Kill. And is the most kitable class. A low ilvl SW can rely on range auto-aim, soul Sparks Self heal and immunity frame. My low ilvl trapper survives a lot thanks to timed dodges and timed interrupts which also help the team with healers. Plus it has auto-aim Powers And ranged Powers. A low ilvl gwf gets on a Point And dies in seconds. No Matter how skilled. when people say gwf is The most gear-hungry class, there is a reason. It says a Lot about how bad are The mechanics and foundations of The class.
When gwf got overnerfed in mod 4 And we said it was an overnerf, people said At first what You guys say now: gwfs cry too much. When It became Clear that We were right, The answer was: "Who cares, their time To get wrecked". Remember it? I do. Now, 8 modules later, We still have the same nerfs in pvp, plus other classes' buffs that made most gwf mechanics obsolete. The class needs proper And reliable mechanics. It 's strong in pve, But in pvp only veterans use The class with decent results.
I see what you are saying. Providing % deflect still gives chance to NOT deflect which could be seen as unreliable. So I will modify my suggestion to this: Sprint provides 100% deflect. Period. (obviously capped at 100%).
This way it IS on a "different layer" but without having it actually be on a different layer - it uses the current mechanics and current layers of "damage reduction". As I posted before, I dislike layers not only due to confusion but also effectiveness decreases.
if you have 100 damage and have 50% DR. The net is 50 damage (100 - (1-50%)) remaining (lets leave tenacity etc out of it). If you take 30% of that DR and move it to a different layer you have: 100 / (1-20%) / (1-30%) = 56 damage.
So if you move things to a "different layer", if you have ANYTHING in the "normal damage resist layer" itll actually decrease its effectiveness. The "advantage" is yes - it cant be mitigated down.
Also - unconfirmed but I think the 20% "min effectiveness" only applies to DR1 (normal DR) so if you WERE to stand in DC AS and what not, then 30% DR on another layer puts people UNDER 20% effectiveness...
It just gets REALLY messy IMO and things like "Seperate DR layers" and other layers like "crit resist" ALL need to go away. There are other options... like I said.... giving spring 100% deflect instead does a SIMILAR thing without including as much layering.
As for leaderboard GWFs and kills - this proves my point EXACTLY. GWFs have "high kills" because many NOOB players sit and facetank GWFs. Because of this stack mechanic it is impossible to balance GWF. Bad players, dont counter a GWF and get hit for good damage and then cry "nerf GWF" "GWF is OP" etc.etc. But the key is the ability to play a GWF comes down to WHO you play, not HOW you play.
If you play a bad person - GWF will be good. If you play a GOOD person, GWF will under perform ALL because of these stacks... If they finally adjust the stacks, then GWFs will perform "similar" at both ends of the spectrum of skill.
This is all I am asking.... This way, when DEVs test for balance, they will have the same "stacks" as the elite players who PVP. Right now when they "test" my guess is not a lot of using Iframes to their fullest etc so GWF may appear fine....
Anyways, I really hope they adjust this, this feat is SUPER easy to get in PVE so even making it "100% chance to gain a stack on ANY hit" wont affect PVE at all.... but itll be a HUGE QOL increase for GWF and allow for MUCH MUCH better future balancing.
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josiahiyonMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 396Arc User
"What's weird is right now ARP in PVP (on live) IS 400:1!!..... yet somehow people still die... including DCs too. You guys might find it hard to believe that someone who doesn't stack 200%+ RI can kill a DC, but the trick is to CC them out of things like AS
So a 300:1 is even less than LIVE..."
- said by ayroux
Thanks so much that you confirmed you're not playing the game at all. It's not 400:1. It is 100:1 on live.
Thefabricant is completely right @rgutscheradev , please for the sake of PvP, listen to him.
What was the main goal of the PvP changes? If I am not horribly mistaken you guys want to make PvP more accessible to anyone in the game. To newer player, to PvE player and for PvP veterans.
We are right now at the point (on preview) where any PvEer could potentially step into PvP with the only effort to farm/buy tenacity gear*** and a loadout for a PvP build. He wouldn't have to exchange all of his power/crit enchantments to armorpen enchantments. He wouldn't have to exchange all his artifacts and mount insignias either to be effective in PvP.
Crits were finally able to deal more damage than a non-crit even at 75% base crit severity when arp resist from tenacity was removed.
Anyways, the 50% armorpen resistance (or making armpen half as effective) killed all of the above.
As Thefabricant described we will have to stack incredible high amounts of armorpen to deal effective damage, hence we gated out ALL PvE player since they would have to make an 100% exchange of all gear to get their armpen up. And gated out all newer players as well, no new player can stack 15k+ armorpen to actually start to deal some damage. (Which will be still terribly low because he won't have much power)
This little change made once again only BiS PvPer able to compete in pvp. The gear gap went from "getting closer" to "more far away than on live right now".
*** which is hopefully applied to character by default any time soon.
Stopped reading after the first line. Arpen tenacity on live is ~ 75% for bis toons, which means the curve is effectively 400:1 on live in pvp. Making Arpen tenacity 50% is a net increase in damage to bis toons and an increase in EHP for new players without tenacity. Good change.
Iyon the Dark
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josiahiyonMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 396Arc User
Stopped after the first line too. On live you can overpenetrate with armpen, on preview you can't anymore. The bug is fixed, need to re-do your math.
That is irrelevant to your point that live is 100:1. You are factually incorrect. Live is 400:1 for bis. And my math accounted for the bug fix when it was first posted. This bug fix helps low dr players and classes, but doesn't help tanky targets. With this change, you will now have a tough choice to make - do you build high RI to beat tanky classes, or do you build high power to beat low dr classes. I like choices and pro/cons.
"What's weird is right now ARP in PVP (on live) IS 400:1!!..... yet somehow people still die... including DCs too. You guys might find it hard to believe that someone who doesn't stack 200%+ RI can kill a DC, but the trick is to CC them out of things like AS
So a 300:1 is even less than LIVE..."
- said by ayroux
Thanks so much that you confirmed you're not playing the game at all. It's not 400:1. It is 100:1 on live.
Thefabricant is completely right @rgutscheradev , please for the sake of PvP, listen to him.
What was the main goal of the PvP changes? If I am not horribly mistaken you guys want to make PvP more accessible to anyone in the game. To newer player, to PvE player and for PvP veterans.
We are right now at the point (on preview) where any PvEer could potentially step into PvP with the only effort to farm/buy tenacity gear*** and a loadout for a PvP build. He wouldn't have to exchange all of his power/crit enchantments to armorpen enchantments. He wouldn't have to exchange all his artifacts and mount insignias either to be effective in PvP.
Crits were finally able to deal more damage than a non-crit even at 75% base crit severity when arp resist from tenacity was removed.
Anyways, the 50% armorpen resistance (or making armpen half as effective) killed all of the above.
As Thefabricant described we will have to stack incredible high amounts of armorpen to deal effective damage, hence we gated out ALL PvE player since they would have to make an 100% exchange of all gear to get their armpen up. And gated out all newer players as well, no new player can stack 15k+ armorpen to actually start to deal some damage. (Which will be still terribly low because he won't have much power)
This little change made once again only BiS PvPer able to compete in pvp. The gear gap went from "getting closer" to "more far away than on live right now".
*** which is hopefully applied to character by default any time soon.
Taking out the ArP suppression from tenacity then adding back a %RI nerf to ArP is INSANE. Take away piercing, great. HR and TR will need a way to actually have a role as a DPSer versus tanks/DCs. Whats the freaking point of playing a TR/HR? "Contol-TRs or Control-HRs"?
DCs are healers and shouldn't be unkillable. These builds are the reason 1shot TRs came about (for non-trolls). Many a time killing them (tanks) two or three times could be the difference between a crappy, one-sided match, and a close match. Many vet pvpers just want to keep an unfair competitive advantage, no matter the cost to the overall pvp community (this is an absolute truth, and is of course ubiquitous within competitive video games). This is also a common practice in real-world business (I own part of a biotech startup company, and we have to trudge through this mess quite often, patents, etc...). This is a GAME, and one where pvpers generate a lot of $ (not including the jags that buy other people's BiS accounts, HAMSTER them). Don't get me wrong, you can be a good person and still be a crappy competitor. I like many of these HAMSTERS personally...
In the words of Public Enemy: "DON'T BELIEVE THE HYPE". Most who start the nerf threads are borderline cowards that can't fathom healthy competition. Please devs, listen to those who are reasonable and have logical arguments. Kalina, xsayajinx1, thefabricant, rayrdan...etc.
Glad I have more than one BiS toon.
Wouldn't it suck if pvp shrank down to 10 players (all playing GF HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA).
Cheers,
Mod edit: Hamster filter manually applied.
Post edited by kreatyve on
"Jazz isn't dead, it just smells funny" - Frank Zappa
I appreciate your support @sweatapodimas but as long as the devs don't see the reasoning behind our suggestions our tries to fix PvP are all wasted and it would be honestly a shame.
Not only a shame.
It...will...die (with a Charlton Heston accent)
"Jazz isn't dead, it just smells funny" - Frank Zappa
I appreciate your support @sweatapodimas but as long as the devs don't see the reasoning behind our suggestions our tries to fix PvP are all wasted and it would be honestly a shame.
Well thats how a discussion works. All sides makes their points and explains them and we gonna have one side winning in the end. If devs dont agree with you, then you are not doing a good enough job of convincing them. It could be many reasons for you failing at that, like not having data to back it up, that you are explaining it in a insufficient way or that you are simply wrong and they dont agree with you.
"What's weird is right now ARP in PVP (on live) IS 400:1!!..... yet somehow people still die... including DCs too. You guys might find it hard to believe that someone who doesn't stack 200%+ RI can kill a DC, but the trick is to CC them out of things like AS
So a 300:1 is even less than LIVE..."
- said by ayroux
Thanks so much that you confirmed you're not playing the game at all. It's not 400:1. It is 100:1 on live.
Thefabricant is completely right @rgutscheradev , please for the sake of PvP, listen to him.
What was the main goal of the PvP changes? If I am not horribly mistaken you guys want to make PvP more accessible to anyone in the game. To newer player, to PvE player and for PvP veterans.
We are right now at the point (on preview) where any PvEer could potentially step into PvP with the only effort to farm/buy tenacity gear*** and a loadout for a PvP build. He wouldn't have to exchange all of his power/crit enchantments to armorpen enchantments. He wouldn't have to exchange all his artifacts and mount insignias either to be effective in PvP.
Crits were finally able to deal more damage than a non-crit even at 75% base crit severity when arp resist from tenacity was removed.
Anyways, the 50% armorpen resistance (or making armpen half as effective) killed all of the above.
As Thefabricant described we will have to stack incredible high amounts of armorpen to deal effective damage, hence we gated out ALL PvE player since they would have to make an 100% exchange of all gear to get their armpen up. And gated out all newer players as well, no new player can stack 15k+ armorpen to actually start to deal some damage. (Which will be still terribly low because he won't have much power)
This little change made once again only BiS PvPer able to compete in pvp. The gear gap went from "getting closer" to "more far away than on live right now".
*** which is hopefully applied to character by default any time soon.
Ummm with 75% arp resist... 100:1 = 400:1? Or did I do that math wrong.....
100/25% = 400. Nope. Looks right to me... Hmmmmm.....
BTW I dont know if you caught this or not but this module isnt meant to be "The PVP Fixes".
What NEEDS To happen is what I have already said. They need to remove ALL tenacity on gear. Give players a flat buff of ~40% less damage in PVP. Also give players ~ 75% - 80% less crit severity in PVP (multiplicative) and then make a total overhaul of ARP to be ~200:1%. MAYBE even 300:1%... Having a stat like Defense stack at 400:1 and its counter stat at 100:1 is stupid. It MIGHT in theory work ok if Defense was the ONLY thing ARP impacted. But you have things like AC (that IMo should be worth WAY more than it is right now) also mitigated super easily by arp.
you have entire class mechanics and feats mitigated by a small investment in ARP. What other stat can you invest so little in and get such a MASSIVE return in like this? Want to counter a Trans Negation? Easy! Just add 3000 ARP (at 100:1)... Its just silly...
Anyways yes - the GOAL is to remove all gear gap for PVE players. The ARP resistance IS a gear gate but only MAINLY because its too effective in PVE atm which would break class balance in PVP.
So if they go for a short term "fix" of removing it, and breaking DR "value" in the game, itll create class imbalance, which if they then actually BALANCE DR/ARP at a later point then it will create class imbalance AGAIN because they will likely balance around 100:1% and 400:1%.
So its BETTER to meet in the middle where PVP WILL be (200:1% in the future) which then allows them to BALANCE CLASSES TODAY based on some feedback of piercing removal + damage buff nerf + ARP overpen removal. Which then means when they LATER make ARP 200:1% and remove ARp Resistance, there is no need to rebalance classes.
3
kalina311Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 2,082Arc User
edited June 2017
@xsayajinx1 Pve players will tend to have more power then armor pen there for will take out certain pvp targets better with proposed meta they will by no means be "gimped" they gimp themselves more so by choosing wrong powers then not having enough armor pen... and some classes dont need it anyways to be effective regardess if they change stat curves or not
wouldn't have to exchange all of his power/crit enchantments to armorpen enchantments in the new meta either
no one said pvp players or pve player need to max out armor pen to 100% or power to be effective only to do "damage" and take out everyone in 1 rotation and there for the bar for pvp entry is being raised ..cause its not
maybe having a high recovery utility build and doing more rotations is effective as well . ...its not black or white here guys
also next mods call for more Armor pen in pve anyways so players will have to stack more and will therefore have more for pvp regardless
also if they fianlly get to proper match making it will be irrelevant that said pvp or pve player does not have an optimal build armor pen or gear wise
and pve player might end up having better gear for pvp if they remove tenacity also some pve gear would be better for pvp cause it does not have useless stat on it like regen and it tend to consolidate stats more
the bar to entry is not being raised with the proposed changes so far i find ..
Post edited by kalina311 on
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mamalion1234Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,415Arc User
CC is largely manageable and the problem is that some people exploit certain over-performing builds such as CB spamming TRs, trapper HRs, and oppressor CWs. It's not enjoyable to fight against any of those and I suggest devs themselves to try playing against them. If you don't have CC break or a high-ranked elven enchant, you wouldn't be able to move at all against those builds, and trapper's root in particular completely nullifies the purpose of dodge, which is ridiculous if you ask me.
Fix those builds and get rid of undodgeable skills then PvP would be a much better place.
VS opressor at least the control resist-deflect etc etc work. AT the moment a wizard has lesser control potential than a hunter and a rogue. + you dont need to be opressor to cc enemies.
CC is largely manageable and the problem is that some people exploit certain over-performing builds such as CB spamming TRs, trapper HRs, and oppressor CWs. It's not enjoyable to fight against any of those and I suggest devs themselves to try playing against them. If you don't have CC break or a high-ranked elven enchant, you wouldn't be able to move at all against those builds, and trapper's root in particular completely nullifies the purpose of dodge, which is ridiculous if you ask me.
Fix those builds and get rid of undodgeable skills then PvP would be a much better place.
VS opressor at least the control resist-deflect etc etc work. AT the moment a wizard has lesser control potential than a hunter and a rogue. + you dont need to be opressor to cc enemies.
The problem is that there are too many classes with control. Solution is to limit it to the true control classes. Like Control Wizard.
So then, all biases aside... Does this now mean the following? Correct me where I'm wrong please.
1. TR HR are effectively nerfed/balanced however you want to put it (piercing wise) or is the base damage of both classes being looked at? 2. Fixing the overpenetration bug, as somebody asked before, does this have anything to do with mark? I missed the answer to that, if there was any. So essentially does that scale down GF damage? 3. Will crits do more or less damage than normal atk in PvP? Everyone appears to be saying something different! 4. Healers stacking DR are still unkillable as ever. 5. GWF is more survivable but less overwhelming. Is the second part true? 6. Have any of these actually been tested or all theories???
CC is largely manageable and the problem is that some people exploit certain over-performing builds such as CB spamming TRs, trapper HRs, and oppressor CWs. It's not enjoyable to fight against any of those and I suggest devs themselves to try playing against them. If you don't have CC break or a high-ranked elven enchant, you wouldn't be able to move at all against those builds, and trapper's root in particular completely nullifies the purpose of dodge, which is ridiculous if you ask me.
Fix those builds and get rid of undodgeable skills then PvP would be a much better place.
VS opressor at least the control resist-deflect etc etc work. AT the moment a wizard has lesser control potential than a hunter and a rogue. + you dont need to be opressor to cc enemies.
The problem is that there are too many classes with control. Solution is to limit it to the true control classes. Like Control Wizard.
or give classes a hard choice like we have when choosing single target or aoe damage on a cw...
it should be the same thing on other classes feat trees as well hard choices .. more control = ~~~ 30% less damage ..single target or aoe ... more damage = less control/ more cc vulnerability ~30% regardless of paragon chosen
Comments
What are the other things considered like tenacity?
Are now buffs affecting that damage like you wanted to by the way?
I also play pve and i would prefer this new piercing version if the damage value can be boosted.
Also: is tenacity as a global buff something we can expect for mod 12? Im excited to have a reason to farm pve gear and being able to wear it everywhere. For now prestige set is the only set i use.
General thought:
this will cut in half HR damage and more than half TR damage. A way to let piercing damage work like all other sources of damage is now needed.
Be also careful to what changes you make to GWF. Right now the only two classes able to kill it are getting a hard nerf.
History teaches that every change to the GWF class can lead to esponential increase in their performances. It s hard to just tweak them.
Thanks
If they cut piercing with 50% combat Hr is history when it comes to being a threat to Gwfs (cant see them being much of a threat to any class with 50% less damage). If the new tenacity gives a 50% base resist and arpen is 200:1 as said earlier it takes 7 k arpen just to negate 30% from unstoppable add some 30-40 % on that it might be so that you need to skip crit and power to focus on arpen making some classes drop damage significant.
Lets test this new stuff out on preview ( I be there when they land with pal gf and hr) and then come back with more hard facts.
Pve armor will increase stats quite alot but 50% less damage from piercing will be hard to compensate imo, do not know what they did to crit severity though but if you have to focus on arpen as Hr you will loose out tons of damage on either crit or power..
Update: I second everything that lazaroth666 said.
Sprint rework based on deflect imho is not good. And not good The sprint---> PC change. Reasons:1) a sprint difensive mechanic based on deflect is unreliable, unlike dodges. Better make sprint DR unpierceable. 2) GWF is The easier class To Kite if the enemy knows how to fight. No cc chains like Gf or auto Gap closing Powers like Gf, all Powers are melee range With no auto aim and landing ibs requires way more skill than any power of any other class (unless you go for a cc daily+ibs rotation). Compare with any other class. GWFs rely on limited post-nerf threat rush, daily+ibs rotation, and ss spam. Sprint for GWF is key. Make It like PC, And any class Will kite you Even more easily imho.
I'd say just make sprint DR on a different layer, with full determination build up when hit during sprint. Balance the rest of gwf survivability around this simple mechanic. Increase sprint DR on sentinel.
@marnival: ayroux talked about high end pvp. Leaderboard is about pug pvp where bis GWFs Can Kill a Lot. GWF is all about ilvl. Reason: class got the worst mechanics. Low ilvl gwfs are the easiest class to Kill. It's a fact imho. Where Even a low ilvl cw can rely on dodges, repels and skill to supporto a team, a low ilvl gwf is a free Kill. And is the most kitable class. A low ilvl SW can rely on range auto-aim, soul Sparks Self heal and immunity frame. My low ilvl trapper survives a lot thanks to timed dodges and timed interrupts which also help the team with healers. Plus it has auto-aim Powers And ranged Powers. A low ilvl gwf gets on a Point And dies in seconds. No Matter how skilled. when people say gwf is The most gear-hungry class, there is a reason. It says a Lot about how bad are The mechanics and foundations of The class.
When gwf got overnerfed in mod 4 And we said it was an overnerf, people said At first what You guys say now: gwfs cry too much. When It became Clear that We were right, The answer was: "Who cares, their time To get wrecked". Remember it? I do. Now, 8 modules later, We still have the same nerfs in pvp, plus other classes' buffs that made most gwf mechanics obsolete. The class needs proper And reliable mechanics. It 's strong in pve, But in pvp only veterans use The class with decent results.
With next updata we will make many tests and videos.
I need to post them here?
P.S.: somebody knows how to kill 250k+ HP 50%+ def DC after future changes?
P.P.S: SE of TR with many buffs atm ~400k -> after changes -> 400*0.55*0.55 ~120k damage LOL.
P.P.P.S: i think that some part of this changes Will have a bad effect on "cap premade fights".
PvE GWFs outperform everybody else damage-wise as far as I can see . All the speedruns I see on these forums are done with a GWF as main DPS. It would be very interesting to have speedrun comparisons with the usual GF,OP,2 DC buffing team and GF conq, GWF, HR, TR, CW and SW as main DPS to get a good understanding of what real capabilities are. Say first ramp of FBI for mobs and Turtle/Drufi for single target.
Born of Black Wind: SW Level 80
Lets look at a hypothetical situation with 300:1 arp, devoted cleric that stacks DR to like 12-16k on gear (guild boon, defense mount, some random other sources of defense), then the rest of their stats they can put into whatever they like:
Hallowed ground: +35% DR.
Astral Shield: +40% DR.
Divine Glow: 17.5%
30-40%+35%+40%+17.5%+20% = 122.5%-132.5%.
So, in order to deal normal damage vs this DC in pvp, you need to stack 122.5%-132.5% RI and we are only looking at a few sources of DR. In order for your outgoing damage to be at more than 20% effectiveness, you need more than 42.5%-52.5% RI, just for your damage to START increasing.
With 300:1 arp that means you need 12750-15750 Arp. This is how much you would have to stack for your damage to even start increasing. Or lets say arp is 200:1, then you need 80500-10500 for your damage to start increasing. Otherwise in this situation, you will always hit for 1/5th effectiveness. If this DC had 150k HP, this would give them an effective life pool of 750k. Have fun killing them.
All this really does is make pvp something completely out of range for lower geared players, as you need excessive amounts of a single stat to deal any damage.
Signature [WIP] - tyvm John
So a 300:1 is even less than LIVE...
> What's weird is right now ARP in PVP (on live) IS 400:1!!..... yet somehow people still die... including DCs too. You guys might find it hard to believe that someone who doesn't stack 200%+ RI can kill a DC, but the trick is to CC them out of things like AS
>
> So a 300:1 is even less than LIVE...
That's correct. The proposed 50% RI suppression will increase damage on tanky targets like dc, op, gwf. It will also buff EHP of new players without tenacity.
The biggest proposed damage nerfs are the bug fix and making tenacity impact piercing. The bug fix helps new players and low dr classes by making them more tanky. The piercing change hurts tr and hr and helps everyone else.
I'll post a simple guide tonight.
Iyon the Dark
Only classes Im worried about with this update is the GWF and SW like usual we will probably get the short end of the stick.
This way it IS on a "different layer" but without having it actually be on a different layer - it uses the current mechanics and current layers of "damage reduction". As I posted before, I dislike layers not only due to confusion but also effectiveness decreases.
if you have 100 damage and have 50% DR. The net is 50 damage (100 - (1-50%)) remaining (lets leave tenacity etc out of it).
If you take 30% of that DR and move it to a different layer you have:
100 / (1-20%) / (1-30%) = 56 damage.
So if you move things to a "different layer", if you have ANYTHING in the "normal damage resist layer" itll actually decrease its effectiveness. The "advantage" is yes - it cant be mitigated down.
Also - unconfirmed but I think the 20% "min effectiveness" only applies to DR1 (normal DR) so if you WERE to stand in DC AS and what not, then 30% DR on another layer puts people UNDER 20% effectiveness...
It just gets REALLY messy IMO and things like "Seperate DR layers" and other layers like "crit resist" ALL need to go away. There are other options... like I said.... giving spring 100% deflect instead does a SIMILAR thing without including as much layering.
As for leaderboard GWFs and kills - this proves my point EXACTLY. GWFs have "high kills" because many NOOB players sit and facetank GWFs. Because of this stack mechanic it is impossible to balance GWF. Bad players, dont counter a GWF and get hit for good damage and then cry "nerf GWF" "GWF is OP" etc.etc. But the key is the ability to play a GWF comes down to WHO you play, not HOW you play.
If you play a bad person - GWF will be good. If you play a GOOD person, GWF will under perform ALL because of these stacks... If they finally adjust the stacks, then GWFs will perform "similar" at both ends of the spectrum of skill.
This is all I am asking.... This way, when DEVs test for balance, they will have the same "stacks" as the elite players who PVP. Right now when they "test" my guess is not a lot of using Iframes to their fullest etc so GWF may appear fine....
Anyways, I really hope they adjust this, this feat is SUPER easy to get in PVE so even making it "100% chance to gain a stack on ANY hit" wont affect PVE at all.... but itll be a HUGE QOL increase for GWF and allow for MUCH MUCH better future balancing.
Stopped reading after the first line. Arpen tenacity on live is ~ 75% for bis toons, which means the curve is effectively 400:1 on live in pvp. Making Arpen tenacity 50% is a net increase in damage to bis toons and an increase in EHP for new players without tenacity. Good change.
Iyon the Dark
Iyon the Dark
LOL, great thinking.
@xsayajinx1 and @thefabricant are the voices of reason here.
DCs are healers and shouldn't be unkillable. These builds are the reason 1shot TRs came about (for non-trolls). Many a time killing them (tanks) two or three times could be the difference between a crappy, one-sided match, and a close match. Many vet pvpers just want to keep an unfair competitive advantage, no matter the cost to the overall pvp community (this is an absolute truth, and is of course ubiquitous within competitive video games). This is also a common practice in real-world business (I own part of a biotech startup company, and we have to trudge through this mess quite often, patents, etc...). This is a GAME, and one where pvpers generate a lot of $ (not including the jags that buy other people's BiS accounts, HAMSTER them). Don't get me wrong, you can be a good person and still be a crappy competitor. I like many of these HAMSTERS personally...
In the words of Public Enemy: "DON'T BELIEVE THE HYPE". Most who start the nerf threads are borderline cowards that can't fathom healthy competition. Please devs, listen to those who are reasonable and have logical arguments. Kalina, xsayajinx1, thefabricant, rayrdan...etc.
Glad I have more than one BiS toon.
Wouldn't it suck if pvp shrank down to 10 players (all playing GF HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA).
Cheers,
Mod edit: Hamster filter manually applied.
It...will...die (with a Charlton Heston accent)
▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ ▇ █ Gankdalf The Icehole █ ▇ ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
100/25% = 400. Nope. Looks right to me... Hmmmmm.....
BTW I dont know if you caught this or not but this module isnt meant to be "The PVP Fixes".
What NEEDS To happen is what I have already said. They need to remove ALL tenacity on gear. Give players a flat buff of ~40% less damage in PVP. Also give players ~ 75% - 80% less crit severity in PVP (multiplicative) and then make a total overhaul of ARP to be ~200:1%. MAYBE even 300:1%... Having a stat like Defense stack at 400:1 and its counter stat at 100:1 is stupid. It MIGHT in theory work ok if Defense was the ONLY thing ARP impacted. But you have things like AC (that IMo should be worth WAY more than it is right now) also mitigated super easily by arp.
you have entire class mechanics and feats mitigated by a small investment in ARP. What other stat can you invest so little in and get such a MASSIVE return in like this? Want to counter a Trans Negation? Easy! Just add 3000 ARP (at 100:1)... Its just silly...
Anyways yes - the GOAL is to remove all gear gap for PVE players. The ARP resistance IS a gear gate but only MAINLY because its too effective in PVE atm which would break class balance in PVP.
So if they go for a short term "fix" of removing it, and breaking DR "value" in the game, itll create class imbalance, which if they then actually BALANCE DR/ARP at a later point then it will create class imbalance AGAIN because they will likely balance around 100:1% and 400:1%.
So its BETTER to meet in the middle where PVP WILL be (200:1% in the future) which then allows them to BALANCE CLASSES TODAY based on some feedback of piercing removal + damage buff nerf + ARP overpen removal. Which then means when they LATER make ARP 200:1% and remove ARp Resistance, there is no need to rebalance classes.
Pve players will tend to have more power then armor pen there for will take out certain pvp targets better with proposed meta they will by no means be "gimped" they gimp themselves more so by choosing wrong powers then not having enough armor pen... and some classes dont need it anyways to be effective regardess if they change stat curves or not
wouldn't have to exchange all of his power/crit enchantments to armorpen enchantments in the new meta either
no one said pvp players or pve player need to max out armor pen to 100% or power to be effective only to do "damage" and take out everyone in 1 rotation and there for the bar for pvp entry is being raised ..cause its not
maybe having a high recovery utility build and doing more rotations is effective as well . ...its not black or white here guys
also next mods call for more Armor pen in pve anyways so players will have to stack more and will therefore have more for pvp regardless
also if they fianlly get to proper match making it will be irrelevant that said pvp or pve player does not have an optimal build armor pen or gear wise
and pve player might end up having better gear for pvp if they remove tenacity
also some pve gear would be better for pvp cause it does not have useless stat on it like regen and it tend to consolidate stats more
the bar to entry is not being raised with the proposed changes so far i find ..
remove elven battle and i will r VS opressor at least the control resist-deflect etc etc work. AT the moment a wizard has lesser control potential than a hunter and a rogue. + you dont need to be opressor to cc enemies.
▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ ▇ █ Gankdalf The Icehole █ ▇ ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
1. TR HR are effectively nerfed/balanced however you want to put it (piercing wise) or is the base damage of both classes being looked at?
2. Fixing the overpenetration bug, as somebody asked before, does this have anything to do with mark? I missed the answer to that, if there was any. So essentially does that scale down GF damage?
3. Will crits do more or less damage than normal atk in PvP? Everyone appears to be saying something different!
4. Healers stacking DR are still unkillable as ever.
5. GWF is more survivable but less overwhelming. Is the second part true?
6. Have any of these actually been tested or all theories???
TY
it should be the same thing on other classes feat trees as well hard choices .. more control = ~~~ 30% less damage ..single target or aoe ... more damage = less control/ more cc vulnerability ~30% regardless of paragon chosen