I think CC should be reviewed separately, at a different time, in a comprehensive way.
Certain classes, or should I say sub-trees will be affected much more than others, potentially making them useless. Oppressors do close to no damage at all; they are based on being able to defend themselves with CC. A small mistake in the timing of their rotation of their CC is devastating. And that is the only "response" they have! No DPS whatsoever to "threaten". Add to that T.Elven Battle...and chances are much further reduced. Trappers are another sub-tree that depend on CC; although some builds make them able to dish out a lot of DPS too - that may be game-breaking. GFs? Without their control powers they are unable to land their DPS effectively in pvp!
If significant nerfs to CC are made, then these sub-trees should be compensated in some way. Should this be extra DPS? How boring it would be to transform all support sub-trees into DPS, IMO. If not that, it should be extra tankiness integrated into their feats. I do hope that they manage to retain their CC-based roles though without flattening all classes into either "tank without being able to kill" vs. "cannon but vulnerable to being killed".
In sum, any changes to CC are better looked at comprehensively, and in full consideration not only of classes (and sub-trees) but also within the context of T.Elven Battle that is so prevalent in PvP. Any changes to CC should also consider how T.EB interacts with them. Whatever changes should also ackowledge a rule: more control --> less DPS.
If gwfs could just be top melee dps while having a ton of hp to avoid piercing dmg one hits, the ability to break out of courage breaker, with medium tanki-ness(lower then it is now of course) I think all GWFs would be happy. No reason why a tank (gf) should hit harder then a GWF ever no matter even if the GWF is sentinel.
I think you are as wrong as you can get about this 3 paths if one class go full dps and another full defence your suggestion is that the defence path still do more damage for gwf then gf pal dc etc etc and then you play the wrong game imho.
However that is not a question for now as that has to do with class balance.
GFs? Without their control powers they are unable to land their DPS effectively in pvp!
Well said, although you sound like a GF - Your CC and DPS powers are all the same. Like we've never seen bull charge near one-shot a full tenacity player. Walks up to flourish or griffons just to finish you off. All the same time can't be damaged behind that infinite shield. Maybe will get ganked by 5 players and die but everyone dies to that.
Thats why I'm generally not against removing arpen resist and overpenetration. In part, at least that's going somewhere, yet a lot of people trying to poke holes in it for one hundred reasons.
I think CC should be reviewed separately, at a different time, in a comprehensive way.
Certain classes, or should I say sub-trees will be affected much more than others, potentially making them useless. Oppressors do close to no damage at all; they are based on being able to defend themselves with CC. A small mistake in the timing of their rotation of their CC is devastating. And that is the only "response" they have! No DPS whatsoever to "threaten". Add to that T.Elven Battle...and chances are much further reduced. Trappers are another sub-tree that depend on CC; although some builds make them able to dish out a lot of DPS too - that may be game-breaking. GFs? Without their control powers they are unable to land their DPS effectively in pvp!
If significant nerfs to CC are made, then these sub-trees should be compensated in some way. Should this be extra DPS? How boring it would be to transform all support sub-trees into DPS, IMO. If not that, it should be extra tankiness integrated into their feats. I do hope that they manage to retain their CC-based roles though without flattening all classes into either "tank without being able to kill" vs. "cannon but vulnerable to being killed".
In sum, any changes to CC are better looked at comprehensively, and in full consideration not only of classes (and sub-trees) but also within the context of T.Elven Battle that is so prevalent in PvP. Any changes to CC should also consider how T.EB interacts with them. Whatever changes should also ackowledge a rule: more control --> less DPS.
If they remove dubble arpen resist, extra damage from negative armor class due to high arpen and replacing that with a player based pvp stats without adjusting cc lock downs or endless cc chains from either trapper, tr or repel cws and yes even cc chain from gfs that can be to much and we are in for some heavy nerfing of some classes indeed.
In NW pvp there are 2 things that stick out more then other when it comes to impacting the game in pvp and that is endless cc chains from mostly trs and piercing damage from hr and tr.
Repel cws and high burst gf is also something that has a significant impact in todays pvp.
Fixing cc is a crusial part of creating a better battle field for the general population and fixing piercing is another.
Then we have immortal buff dc endless healing pals etc etc but my guess is that i something we have to wait for and handle down the road.
If they want to remove dubble arpen resist without changing the 1:100 ratio to avoid tuching pve one solution would be to separate the resist giving heavy armored classes a higher base then lower armored, how much can easy be tested in preview over a day or 2.
GFs? Without their control powers they are unable to land their DPS effectively in pvp!
Well said, although you sound like a GF - Your CC and DPS powers are all the same. Like we've never seen bull charge near one-shot a full tenacity player. Walks up to flourish or griffons just to finish you off. All the same time can't be damaged behind that infinite shield. Maybe will get ganked by 5 players and die but everyone dies to that.
I am not a GF. I use my CW in PvP and much less often my DC. I'm just trying to put myself in other players' shoes apart from my own.
I can only share your frustration about GFs! A CW can easily get one rotated by GFs between their immunity to my CC, their own CC + their DPS. It is a class I like trying to fight though, because the more I learn about how a class works, the better I get at handling them. I still get smashed a lot though lol.
I think CC should be reviewed separately, at a different time, in a comprehensive way.
Certain classes, or should I say sub-trees will be affected much more than others, potentially making them useless. Oppressors do close to no damage at all; they are based on being able to defend themselves with CC. A small mistake in the timing of their rotation of their CC is devastating. And that is the only "response" they have! No DPS whatsoever to "threaten". Add to that T.Elven Battle...and chances are much further reduced. Trappers are another sub-tree that depend on CC; although some builds make them able to dish out a lot of DPS too - that may be game-breaking. GFs? Without their control powers they are unable to land their DPS effectively in pvp!
If significant nerfs to CC are made, then these sub-trees should be compensated in some way. Should this be extra DPS? How boring it would be to transform all support sub-trees into DPS, IMO. If not that, it should be extra tankiness integrated into their feats. I do hope that they manage to retain their CC-based roles though without flattening all classes into either "tank without being able to kill" vs. "cannon but vulnerable to being killed".
In sum, any changes to CC are better looked at comprehensively, and in full consideration not only of classes (and sub-trees) but also within the context of T.Elven Battle that is so prevalent in PvP. Any changes to CC should also consider how T.EB interacts with them. Whatever changes should also ackowledge a rule: more control --> less DPS.
If they remove dubble arpen resist, extra damage from negative armor class due to high arpen and replacing that with a player based pvp stats without adjusting cc lock downs or endless cc chains from either trapper, tr or repel cws and yes even cc chain from gfs that can be to much and we are in for some heavy nerfing of some classes indeed.
In NW pvp there are 2 things that stick out more then other when it comes to impacting the game in pvp and that is endless cc chains from mostly trs and piercing damage from hr and tr.
Repel cws and high burst gf is also something that has a significant impact in todays pvp.
Fixing cc is a crusial part of creating a better battle field for the general population and fixing piercing is another.
Then we have immortal buff dc endless healing pals etc etc but my guess is that i something we have to wait for and handle down the road.
If they want to remove dubble arpen resist without changing the 1:100 ratio to avoid tuching pve one solution would be to separate the resist giving heavy armored classes a higher base then lower armored, how much can easy be tested in preview over a day or 2.
I think the main point I want to make, as you have also illustrated it with several examples above, is that CC is a core mechanism for many or even most classes in Neverwinter PvP. If that is the case, careful consideration is needed before blindly nerfing it. And I agree that some CC is more "frustrating" than others. But at the same time, there is so much CC-resist available between classes with Shields, invisibility to avoid CC, encounters that break CC like ITC (TR) or cleansing touch (OP), dodges (repel can be dodged and blocked by shield). A couple of classes have the short end of the stick unfortunately like the GWF (or the DC but all DCs wear T.EB in PvP), on that front. Add in T.EB and CC gets even less effective.
GFs? Without their control powers they are unable to land their DPS effectively in pvp!
Well said, although you sound like a GF - Your CC and DPS powers are all the same. Like we've never seen bull charge near one-shot a full tenacity player. Walks up to flourish or griffons just to finish you off. All the same time can't be damaged behind that infinite shield. Maybe will get ganked by 5 players and die but everyone dies to that.
I am not a GF. I use my CW in PvP and much less often my DC. I'm just trying to put myself in other players' shoes apart from my own.
I can only share your frustration about GFs! A CW can easily get one rotated by GFs between their immunity to my CC, their own CC + their DPS. It is a class I like trying to fight though, because the more I learn about how a class works, the better I get at handling them. I still get smashed a lot though lol.
I think CC should be reviewed separately, at a different time, in a comprehensive way.
Certain classes, or should I say sub-trees will be affected much more than others, potentially making them useless. Oppressors do close to no damage at all; they are based on being able to defend themselves with CC. A small mistake in the timing of their rotation of their CC is devastating. And that is the only "response" they have! No DPS whatsoever to "threaten". Add to that T.Elven Battle...and chances are much further reduced. Trappers are another sub-tree that depend on CC; although some builds make them able to dish out a lot of DPS too - that may be game-breaking. GFs? Without their control powers they are unable to land their DPS effectively in pvp!
If significant nerfs to CC are made, then these sub-trees should be compensated in some way. Should this be extra DPS? How boring it would be to transform all support sub-trees into DPS, IMO. If not that, it should be extra tankiness integrated into their feats. I do hope that they manage to retain their CC-based roles though without flattening all classes into either "tank without being able to kill" vs. "cannon but vulnerable to being killed".
In sum, any changes to CC are better looked at comprehensively, and in full consideration not only of classes (and sub-trees) but also within the context of T.Elven Battle that is so prevalent in PvP. Any changes to CC should also consider how T.EB interacts with them. Whatever changes should also ackowledge a rule: more control --> less DPS.
If they remove dubble arpen resist, extra damage from negative armor class due to high arpen and replacing that with a player based pvp stats without adjusting cc lock downs or endless cc chains from either trapper, tr or repel cws and yes even cc chain from gfs that can be to much and we are in for some heavy nerfing of some classes indeed.
In NW pvp there are 2 things that stick out more then other when it comes to impacting the game in pvp and that is endless cc chains from mostly trs and piercing damage from hr and tr.
Repel cws and high burst gf is also something that has a significant impact in todays pvp.
Fixing cc is a crusial part of creating a better battle field for the general population and fixing piercing is another.
Then we have immortal buff dc endless healing pals etc etc but my guess is that i something we have to wait for and handle down the road.
If they want to remove dubble arpen resist without changing the 1:100 ratio to avoid tuching pve one solution would be to separate the resist giving heavy armored classes a higher base then lower armored, how much can easy be tested in preview over a day or 2.
I think the main point I want to make, as you have also illustrated it with several examples above, is that CC is a core mechanism for many or even most classes in Neverwinter PvP. If that is the case, careful consideration is needed before blindly nerfing it. And I abgree that some CC is more "frustrating" than others. But at the same time, there is so much CC-resist available between classes with Shields, invisibility to avoid CC, encounters that break CC like ITC (TR) or cleansing touch (OP), dodges (repel can be dodged and blocked by shield). A couple of classes have the short end of the stick unfortunately like the GWF (or the DC but all DCs wear T.EB in PvP), on that front. Add in T.EB and CC gets even less effective.
My point is that nm what class you play either you are at the raw end of the cc chain or you are one that relay on it in a pvp enviroment that is not a good road to walk down on. CC is a huge part of about every mmo pvp game I ever played and even if some games start out with no cc dimish they sooner or later come to that point where it is implemented.
Abusing cc chains with high dps is what brings that change around, standing doing nothing while you die with no chanse of survival isent what players want in pvp, at least not those that are on the reciving end :-).
If you play Hr-trapper, cw repel boot, gf high burst chain or Tr endleeeeeeeees smoke cb perma itc hide (stuuuuupid soooo tired if that) you might have fun with it but the majority sure do not.
Games develop or they go under NW pvp is about as dead as it can be in a game of this size because of mostly 3 things - Premades that farm pugs, huge gear gap that prevents new from even bothering and a bad combat system where you can abuse game mechanics like cc and piercing.
Now if they implement solo queu and private queu one part of that is fixed, making a player based pvp buff instead of having to farm for gear being canon fodder during that time is a fix even if the gear gap still will be a thing it will be less so.
If they manage (with some players testing I hope) to lessen the unbalance with piercing and endless cc chains (repel is not a cc per see so its kinda a special case) with the rest of the changes I am pretty hopefull that NW pvp is on the right track even if it have taken ages.
Not having to face premades will do tons for casual players and if guild can run private matches having fun doing so am sure it will attract a lot more players then what pvp does atm.
NW pvp is about as dead as it can be in a game of this size because of mostly 3 things - Premades that farm pugs, huge gear gap that prevents new from even bothering and a bad combat system where you can abuse game mechanics like cc and piercing.
I agree. The REAL problem I see is gear gap. This isnt as easily fixed as the others. CC diminishing returns or nerfing CC - this was supposed to be done though tenacity, but hasnt worked that way at all... The CC problem is kinda a cluster atm. Some classes need it, others have too much of it... Some games employ immunity timers after getting hit with a CC. I dont like this AS much since it renders some abilities "useless" but I am curious about a diminishing return variable. Off the top of my head, you could make CC 50% effective for each subsequent CC applied within X seconds.
The toughest one I see is gear gap. Unfortunately it seems to be the one being ignored... Why thats unfortunate is that fixing the gear gap WILL have ramifications on these other areas. Which means if they can balance mechanics today, they will be out of balance if you adjust "gear gap" problems.... It would have been better to adjust gear gap FIRST and then balance after the dust settles on that. The major issue that contributes to gear gap is: 1) boons 2) potions/buffs
Boons account for more stats than the sum of ALL your gear. Potions - might be the same. Either way its a TON of stats.
I guess we will wait and see what happens..... I hope they announce something about "gear gap"
CC is largely manageable and the problem is that some people exploit certain over-performing builds such as CB spamming TRs, trapper HRs, and oppressor CWs. It's not enjoyable to fight against any of those and I suggest devs themselves to try playing against them. If you don't have CC break or a high-ranked elven enchant, you wouldn't be able to move at all against those builds, and trapper's root in particular completely nullifies the purpose of dodge, which is ridiculous if you ask me.
Fix those builds and get rid of undodgeable skills then PvP would be a much better place.
OK, coming to the next build on preview (most likely end of this week): * Piercing damage pierces armor (AC and Defense) but not other stuff (like Tenacity). * Armor Pen is only 50% effective in PvP.
I'm still not 100% convinced on the second one -- there are so many other changes that alter what AP will do (fixing the overpenetration bug, the above Piercing changes) -- but the forum consensus is very strong, and I do agree that having a reduced effectiveness provides a gentler ramp to a future world where AP scales at a rate closer to Defense (ie, moving from 100AP:1% to 200 or 300 to 1%).
If there's still a need for more help to GWFs, one possibility is to make the damage reduction from Unstoppable not count as armor (and hence, like Tenacity, not be penetrated by Armor Piercing) . Note that GWFs are very powerful in PvE, so there's a need to tread cautiously here, but this particular change could add a lot of extra survivability in PvP without affecting PvE too much. It might be right to accompany it with a slight decrease in the extra damage coming from Unstoppable (the total damage amounts we're seeing from GWFs is very high for a class that's much more resistant to damage than most other dps classes -- again, this is particularly true in PvE).
I want to encourage everyone with strong opinions here to actually test this stuff on preview. The theorycrafting is great and all, but it can only go so far. Part of where you can help us the most is actually trying it out and giving us reports from the front. (That's a big part of the idea behind the private PvP queues.)
Also, don't forget that a lot of the changes, such as possible CC tweaks, are coming later (ie, we are asking you all earlier, as requested!) and are discussed in the other PvP thread. So please do visit that thread for discussion about future changes. I'll try to keep this thread focused on changes appearing with the upcoming Chult release.
3
josiahiyonMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 396Arc User
edited June 2017
First glance, good changes and I look forward to testing them more this weekend.
The Arpen change and piercing changes will both help gwf relative to current ptr. Less 1shot SEs that they can't dodge.
As you mentioned earlier in the thread, tr damage may be too low after this change. And maybe HR. Will see this weekend.
OK, coming to the next build on preview (most likely end of this week): * Piercing damage pierces armor (AC and Defense) but not other stuff (like Tenacity). * Armor Pen is only 50% effective in PvP.
I'm still not 100% convinced on the second one -- there are so many other changes that alter what AP will do (fixing the overpenetration bug, the above Piercing changes) -- but the forum consensus is very strong, and I do agree that having a reduced effectiveness provides a gentler ramp to a future world where AP scales at a rate closer to Defense (ie, moving from 100AP:1% to 200 or 300 to 1%).
If there's still a need for more help to GWFs, one possibility is to make the damage reduction from Unstoppable not count as armor (and hence, like Tenacity, not be penetrated by Armor Piercing) . Note that GWFs are very powerful in PvE, so there's a need to tread cautiously here, but this particular change could add a lot of extra survivability in PvP without affecting PvE too much. It might be right to accompany it with a slight decrease in the extra damage coming from Unstoppable (the total damage amounts we're seeing from GWFs is very high for a class that's much more resistant to damage than most other dps classes -- again, this is particularly true in PvE).
I want to encourage everyone with strong opinions here to actually test this stuff on preview. The theorycrafting is great and all, but it can only go so far. Part of where you can help us the most is actually trying it out and giving us reports from the front. (That's a big part of the idea behind the private PvP queues.)
Also, don't forget that a lot of the changes, such as possible CC tweaks, are coming later (ie, we are asking you all earlier, as requested!) and are discussed in the other PvP thread. So please do visit that thread for discussion about future changes. I'll try to keep this thread focused on changes appearing with the upcoming Chult release.
@rgutscheradev AWESOME! Very cool man. This really gives me hope for Neverwinter - that a DEV is actually listening to the player base for what seems to be maybe a 1st in the history of the game
- Piercing: This should have been this way from the start! Bypassing all "defense" but still being reduced by tenacity, etc. - Armor pen: I completely agree with removing this but only AFTER you make an ARP change to 200:1% or 300:1% (frankly 300:1 is my choice but you can decide).
As for GWFs. This is my class. Very near and dear to my heart. Please, for the love of this game do not add more "layers of DR". This is part of the "broken foundation" this game has. You have so many "layers". You have Crit Resist (a layer), tenacity (a layer), damage resist (a layer), and then "special damage resist" (another layer). So we have now four layers (I think there are more when you get into things like CAB too) that all make it VERY convoluted and creates balance problems now and in the future when you go to try and balance classes.... I actually think CW shield should not be its own layer either BTW.. But anyways..
GWF is a very tricky class to balance. If you really want to fix PVP without hurting PVE this would likely be the best route:
ISSUE #1) fix "stacking". What I mean is the class is UBER reliant on stacks for damage (Destroyer class feature + Focused Destroyer feat + Destroyers Purpose capstone feat).
The PROBLEM with this, is that Destroyer class feature only lasts 4 seconds and the Focused Destroyer FEAT only gives 25% chance to gain a stack on any target.
WHY IS THIS A PROBLEM? Well in PVE its easy to keep that up. Not only do you constantly attack more than 3 enemies, but there are PLENTY of them. In PVP its impossible to keep up. Thus - BALANCE PROBLEM!!!! IF PVP GWF is good, PVE GWF is even better. If PVP GWF is only "good" likely means PVP GWF will suck! (kinda where we are at now IMO)
As you said. PVE GWF are high performers, PVP GWF are not - because they cant keep stacks up while PVE GWFS can.
BTW - this is also why in "PUG" games GWFs are seen as OP but in premades they suck (because PUGs try and facetank GWFs allowing them to build stacks)....
SOLUTION: Focused Destroyer now gives 20/40/60/80/100% chance to gain a stack off ANY attack, but NO LONGER adds up to 3.5% bonus damage per stack. Also! Stacks should last AS LONG AS Weapon Master stacks (~5 seconds I believe).
RESULT: Small PVE damage nerf (~10% less dmg) with a better balance for PVP - because now you can get and KEEP stacks much easier.
ISSUE #2) NO Immunity Frames. This is a tricky one... But again, its one of the reasons GWF has always been "UBER" or pretty crappy... I-frames allow other classes to use skill to dodge attacks. GWF cant dodge attacks but just have to "eat" the damage and WORSE! The determination gained is based off of HP lost - not damage taken - so you cant use sprint as a way to avoid damage and build your mechanic (meaning zero synergy).
Also, you have a .5 sec delay on using this ability. Which makes this impossible to pre-emtively use reliably..
So TWO possible solutions: 1) Rework. I know... unattractive as it takes time... But! A solution would be to rework sprint to be "punishing charge" which provides I-frames. The GWF would charge forward (same animation) but "dodge" any damage during that time. Since P.C. is too short, you might need to lengthen it to be more ~ the same time/distance as CW/TR dodge.
2) An easier 1 - Have Sprint provide deflect % and deflect severity instead of DR. Right now Sprint provides 30% DR (which ARP and Piercing can bypass) so assuming your Point #1 is true - it means Piercing damage can be deflected Right? Well.... If Sprint (30% Dr) instead, provided.. 60% deflect (30% DR) OR.... if 60% is too much (since if a GWF has over 40% it will put over 100% and be worthless) maybe you have sprint ALSO increase severity by 25%, which means that Sprint could provide 40% Deflect @ 75% which is the same as 30% DR but CANT be reduced by ARP/Piercing - which means its an actual viable defensive mechanic again (that also pairs WITH DR, where as currently if you hit the cap, sprint wouldnt add any more). If we keep sprint, it would be nice to get a faster "activation" with maybe more of a minimum cost to use. I dont know if you can tweak the system at all, but if your full stamina bar is at 100, maybe it takes like 25 to activate but to "sustain" it only takes like 5/sec or something. Just a thought (not set on those #s btw, but just as an example) but this allows you to have insta-activation but at a higher cost.
So those would help GWF. Unstoppable (tab) is a reactive ability that frankly is also a "crutch" but I think these two changes would be "enough" for the short term that would help GWF enough. We would now have more reliable damage via stack fixing as well as a more reliable "avoidance" mechanic which should be enough to balance the scales a bit - all without impacting PVE mind you!!! (even a small nerf to PVE damage!)
OK, coming to the next build on preview (most likely end of this week): * Piercing damage pierces armor (AC and Defense) but not other stuff (like Tenacity). * Armor Pen is only 50% effective in PvP.
I'm still not 100% convinced on the second one -- there are so many other changes that alter what AP will do (fixing the overpenetration bug, the above Piercing changes) -- but the forum consensus is very strong, and I do agree that having a reduced effectiveness provides a gentler ramp to a future world where AP scales at a rate closer to Defense (ie, moving from 100AP:1% to 200 or 300 to 1%).
If there's still a need for more help to GWFs, one possibility is to make the damage reduction from Unstoppable not count as armor (and hence, like Tenacity, not be penetrated by Armor Piercing) . Note that GWFs are very powerful in PvE, so there's a need to tread cautiously here, but this particular change could add a lot of extra survivability in PvP without affecting PvE too much. It might be right to accompany it with a slight decrease in the extra damage coming from Unstoppable (the total damage amounts we're seeing from GWFs is very high for a class that's much more resistant to damage than most other dps classes -- again, this is particularly true in PvE).
I want to encourage everyone with strong opinions here to actually test this stuff on preview. The theorycrafting is great and all, but it can only go so far. Part of where you can help us the most is actually trying it out and giving us reports from the front. (That's a big part of the idea behind the private PvP queues.)
Also, don't forget that a lot of the changes, such as possible CC tweaks, are coming later (ie, we are asking you all earlier, as requested!) and are discussed in the other PvP thread. So please do visit that thread for discussion about future changes. I'll try to keep this thread focused on changes appearing with the upcoming Chult release.
Sounds good, Gonna test it and come back. Question tho: Did you do anything to control? some of us feel that control is somehow buffed on PTR compared to live. Not sure tho.
No way, DO NOT TOUCH GWF damage until you look at Guardian Fighter damage and survivability, you guys turned a tank class into an overpowered DPS class and a god in PVP, after nerfing GWF in Mod 4 for being a tanky DPS. Also, all GWF has is damage. It has no utility like GF and other classes. The only class less helpful to a group is TR. GWF does not even have a dodge....
You know as well as I do that the problem between PVE GWF's "high damage" and the PVP GWFs "damage" is what I mentioned above right?
If GWF could reliably get Destroyer stacks up 100% of the time, his damage would be in a good spot, even if Destroyer stacks themselves were nerfed a tad. This would bring PVP GWF and PVE GWF inline with eachother and not always feel like there is such a big gap between the two (damage you see compared to other classes in PVE and damage you see comapred to other classes in PVP).
I dont disagree though, GFs are pretty insane atm...
As people have pointed out, changing control is tricky and will require some more baking time.
Hm ok. Well make sure CW dont get the short stick of control nerf. Regarding control the aim should be less control overall in matches but 1-2 should stick out, like CW/HR. Right now plenty of classes has better control than a CW. TR smokebomb and courage breaker. GF prones/stuns, HR trapper even the SW has some good ones. While CW entangle last for like 0.1s. Only good control CW has is repel..
@rgutscheradev Please take a look at GF dmg compared to GWF damage please. No reason why they should be doing more damage then a GWF when they are Iron Vanguard running shield warriors wrath and trample the fallen.. Yesterday I got hit by a 175k bullcharge when I was running the Valhalla set with full Valhalla stacks and 220k hp lol.
Find me in game if you want and send me a domination/ gaunt invite. If you are good and im not busy ill play with you. Im not an elitist ill play with almost anyone.
As for GWFs. This is my class. Very near and dear to my heart. Please, for the love of this game do not add more "layers of DR". This is part of the "broken foundation" this game has. You have so many "layers". You have Crit Resist (a layer), tenacity (a layer), damage resist (a layer), and then "special damage resist" (another layer). So we have now four layers (I think there are more when you get into things like CAB too) that all make it VERY convoluted and creates balance problems now and in the future when you go to try and balance classes.... I actually think CW shield should not be its own layer either BTW.. But anyways..
Thanks for all the GWF feedback! That is super-helpful.
I'll need to mull over the details, and a serious GWF rework (or even a not-so-serious one) will take some time. But I wanted to talk a bit about "layers", as this is something I've been thinking about a lot recently and I wanted to let everyone know what's happening, and what I'm thinking.
There are indeed "layers" of DR in NW, but maybe not in the way you are thinking. Basically what's happening in the NW engine is there's an underlying concept called "Res" (for Resistance), and various "math pools" that say how various things that give you Res will math out. However, the words on the tooltips don't always have much if anything to do with what's going on underneath, unfortunately (something I want to improve over time).
Under the hood, the recent changes have amounted to saying something like "this math pool is going to be used for armor -- specifically Armor Class and Defense -- and this other math pool is going to be used for resistances that are NOT armor". And then armor pen should affect the pool that's armor, and not the other pool. Hence armor pen no longer affecting Tenacity.
I agree we do not want a ton of different "layers" that we keep adding on to and keep making things more complicated (hence my not-quite-successful-yet attempt to get rid of AP resistance). However, I do think we need a pool of resistance that AP negates, and another pool that it doesn't affect. For sure, Armor Class and Defense go in that first pool. For sure, Tenacity and GF/P shields go in that second pool. But after that, I think there's some room for putting things in one pool versus the other. And I don't think it makes the game more complicated. Done right, it can make the game easier to understand (ideally, I'd like all things that "feel like" armor, because they involve a physical thing that's blocking incoming damage, to be in the first pool, and things that "don't feel like" armor to be in the second pool -- but other needs like balance may interfere with that imagined world). Of course, some tooltip tweaking would need to be part of this.
So when I mention something like "should AP not work against Unstoppable damage resistance?", it's not an extra layer or making the game more complicated. It's just moving an existing damage resist ability from one (already existing) pool to another (already existing) pool.
Which doesn't mean it's the right thing to do. There are arguments for and against it. But it definitely doesn't represent an "extra layer" or anything like that (which, I agree, would not be a good thing).
Sorry if this is too much "inside baseball", but as I said I've been thinking about this kind of thing a lot lately (the changes to damage vulnerability debuffs are related to these sorts of issues, for example), and that gave me the perhaps incorrect idea that all this would be interesting/relevant/useful to people! Or at least, to the sort of people who like that sort of thing. :P
As for GWFs. This is my class. Very near and dear to my heart. Please, for the love of this game do not add more "layers of DR". This is part of the "broken foundation" this game has. You have so many "layers". You have Crit Resist (a layer), tenacity (a layer), damage resist (a layer), and then "special damage resist" (another layer). So we have now four layers (I think there are more when you get into things like CAB too) that all make it VERY convoluted and creates balance problems now and in the future when you go to try and balance classes.... I actually think CW shield should not be its own layer either BTW.. But anyways..
Thanks for all the GWF feedback! That is super-helpful.
I'll need to mull over the details, and a serious GWF rework (or even a not-so-serious one) will take some time. But I wanted to talk a bit about "layers", as this is something I've been thinking about a lot recently and I wanted to let everyone know what's happening, and what I'm thinking.
There are indeed "layers" of DR in NW, but maybe not in the way you are thinking. Basically what's happening in the NW engine is there's an underlying concept called "Res" (for Resistance), and various "math pools" that say how various things that give you Res will math out. However, the words on the tooltips don't always have much if anything to do with what's going on underneath, unfortunately (something I want to improve over time).
Under the hood, the recent changes have amounted to saying something like "this math pool is going to be used for armor -- specifically Armor Class and Defense -- and this other math pool is going to be used for resistances that are NOT armor". And then armor pen should affect the pool that's armor, and not the other pool. Hence armor pen no longer affecting Tenacity.
I agree we do not want a ton of different "layers" that we keep adding on to and keep making things more complicated (hence my not-quite-successful-yet attempt to get rid of AP resistance). However, I do think we need a pool of resistance that AP negates, and another pool that it doesn't affect. For sure, Armor Class and Defense go in that first pool. For sure, Tenacity and GF/P shields go in that second pool. But after that, I think there's some room for putting things in one pool versus the other. And I don't think it makes the game more complicated. Done right, it can make the game easier to understand (ideally, I'd like all things that "feel like" armor, because they involve a physical thing that's blocking incoming damage, to be in the first pool, and things that "don't feel like" armor to be in the second pool -- but other needs like balance may interfere with that imagined world). Of course, some tooltip tweaking would need to be part of this.
So when I mention something like "should AP not work against Unstoppable damage resistance?", it's not an extra layer or making the game more complicated. It's just moving an existing damage resist ability from one (already existing) pool to another (already existing) pool.
Which doesn't mean it's the right thing to do. There are arguments for and against it. But it definitely doesn't represent an "extra layer" or anything like that (which, I agree, would not be a good thing).
Sorry if this is too much "inside baseball", but as I said I've been thinking about this kind of thing a lot lately (the changes to damage vulnerability debuffs are related to these sorts of issues, for example), and that gave me the perhaps incorrect idea that all this would be interesting/relevant/useful to people! Or at least, to the sort of people who like that sort of thing. :P
I appreciate your response and your time. I really do. MY understanding is that different "layers" are added at different times. Let me explain.
10,000 crit damage against a 30% DR player who uses Unstoppable for another 30%) with 40% tenacity DR with 40% crit resist. (this isnt exact formula but illustrates the concept).
10,000 damage is mitigated down by unstoppable and 30% DR (60% total) down to 4,000 damage. 4,000 damage mitigated by tenacity 40% and crit resist 40% = 1,440 NET result.
We have only 3 "layers" here to keep this simple.
Now, lets assume we have another 4th layer of "special DR".
10,000 damage mitigated by 30% DR = 7,000 damage. Then mitigated by Unstoppable DR (30%) = 4,900 then mitigated by tenacity 40% DR = 2,940 then mitigated by crit resist (40%) = 1,764 NET result.
So, if this is happening how I have understood it. Moving Unstoppable's DR to an unmitigated section would actually increase damage taken (1,440 damage vs 1,764 damage). Maybe I am wrong. But isnt this how it works?
If Unstoppable DR is not on its own layer it applies to the full pre-DR amount (10k in this case) if its on its own layer it responds to the net DR # (7,000 in the second case). Or does it apply to the FIRST number (10,000)?
The frustrating thing here as a player is the layering. You have ACT which gives us players the "effectiveness" values in PVP. So we go and test some abilities and come back at things like 39% effective! Yay! But then if that same move crits, it gets hit (currently) buy a -45% reduction in damage again, but luckily we get crit bonus (75%) Well its not additive, they are multiplicative, so you end up with
10,000 @ 39% effective = 3,900. If it crits *1,75 but crit resist @45% = 3,753 NET damage.
So here (with 45% crit resist but 75% severity) we actually do LESS damage.
Also what is our effectiveness?
10,000 * 1.75 = 17,500 and we did 3,753 = 21.44% effective (versus 39% non crits...)
So these are problems... Your crit did LESS damage than a non crit.... Because of "layering".
So this is where "Layering" becomes a problem.
Or lets take this example: lets say you DROPPED your armor pen and grabbed POWER instead.
Well your base damage might go from 10,000 to 14,000. Ok. Well at 20% effective values (the minimum) that = less damage (2,800) but NOW your crit doesnt get double hit since MINIMUM effective values stay at 20%. So your crit would be 14,000 *1.75 *20% (min effectiveness) = 4,900!
So things like ARP are counter productive to crits and vice versa. The higher your non crit "effectiveness" the lower damage bonus crits provide... Its a very weird "inverse" relationship ALL due to "layering"....
ALL of these weird "maths" come from the layering that keeps going on.... This is what makes it SUPER confusing for players.
Maybe I am WAYYYY off base. This is from literally YEARS of testing and building excel sheets and data and I am a human being so I could be wrong... but this is what I have seen....
Layers = problems.
The better solution would be REMOVE layers.... Especially surrounding crit resist so that it merely works as a NEGATIVE "crit severtity" rather than a "layer". Same with DR. Dont have "layers". Tenacity should be the only special "layer" that merely takes ALL the damage after the dust settles and then reduces it by X% (40%).
But crit resist? It should be something like 80% LESS severity.
So if you have 75% severity, now you have 15% Severity in PVP. If you have 110% severity, now you have 22% severity in PVP.
IT shouldnt "layer" and "double dip" etc.
The issue with GWFs is that their unstoppable is too easily countered by a small investment in stats. At 100:1% even a MAX unstoppable was providing 30% Dr which is a mere 3,000 ARP and its completely wasted.
Atleast with ARP being 50% effective, its closer to 200:1 which means its closer to probably 7,000 ARP to counter a GWFs unstoppable now... Which seems more reasonable.
The REAL issue with GWF is what I outlined above though - not that unstoppable can be countered via ARP and piercing but that GWF has no "preemptive" way to avoid damage and also is FAR to reliant on a crappy "stacking" mechanism that works fine against bad players who sit and facetank a GWF and works FINE in PVE where NPCs are galor and you are constaly able to attack and keep stacks up... but in PVP when someone dodges you 2x, there is a REALLY high chance you will lose all destroyer stacks and are now gonna hit like a wet noodle.
So to fix GWF short term - DONT add more layers. Fix Focused Destroyer (feat) like I proposed and then adjust Sprint so that IT can be used as the "preemptive" damage avoidance. Now GWF has the tools needed to be competitive.
Post edited by ayroux on
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lazaroth666Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,332Arc User
If there's still a need for more help to GWFs, one possibility is to make the damage reduction from Unstoppable not count as armor (and hence, like Tenacity, not be penetrated by Armor Piercing) . Note that GWFs are very powerful in PvE, so there's a need to tread cautiously here, but this particular change could add a lot of extra survivability in PvP without affecting PvE too much. It might be right to accompany it with a slight decrease in the extra damage coming from Unstoppable (the total damage amounts we're seeing from GWFs is very high for a class that's much more resistant to damage than most other dps classes -- again, this is particularly true in PvE).
@rgutscheradev You can't really expect an unbiased suggestion about changing the PvE side of the GWF in this thread in which the majority is clearly PvP focused. There's a huge misconception about how "powerful" is the GWF in high-end PvE because others classes are able to deal the same or even higher damage output in comparison. It is very important to keep in mind that they barely offer anything useful to any group besides damage. Negligible buffs/debuffs or any additional benefit for the party in any dungeon while other classes can offer better buffs/debuffs and CC. If you reduce the damage of the GWF in PvE, there's absolutely no point in taking them to a dungeon when another class can offer much more. It is not fair to say that the GWF is dealing a very high damage while being very resilient at the same time because the other dps classes have their own efective defensive layer which is "distance or range" so while they can kite and deal damage at the same time, the GWF have to hold his position as close to enemy as possible. This would lead to the point where ranged classes would be more powerful and resistant than the melee classes which is exactly what you are trying to avoid. I can go on but you get the idea.
The suggestion about a small rework on Focused Destroyer is mediocre (I mean no offense). The GWF Destroyer PvE can build stacks inmediately so that change would be barely noticeable and it will affect enormously his damage output vs elite/brute enemies where the stacks (increased damage) really matter. @rgutscheradev as you can easily notice, it is a change meant to be useful only for PvP, nerfing the GWF PvE damage which is exactly what I mentioned in my first paragraph. Both PvE and PvP don't need to be in-line, due to many different circunstances or situations the mechanics of the class will behave in a different way. A smarter approach would be to modify the duration of the stacks according to the number of enemies. Increased duration of the stacks if there's only 1 enemy and reduce 1 second for every additional nearby enemy up to 5 seconds, this means that the stacks would require a base duration of 9 seconds which should greatly help in PvP without having a huge impact the PvE side.
Lets try not to get out of hands with biased information.
Trying to say that Gwf is weak and useless in pvp is stretching it to say the least. Not having a dodge when it comes to tr exe sure, before change against hr piercing sure(even if you are far from alone in this).
Gf having far more damage then gwf is a dowright lie and the only reason gf can preform better is due to cc chain with high burst damage AFTER building stacks and marking target (yea it takes some time for gf to build stack to get full burst also).
Now block is superior when it comes to tanking but then again unstoppable is superior when it comes to cc resist and being able to actually be able to fight.
Gwf has a huge advantage when it comes to regaining life due to lifesteal and unstoppable compared to gfs not to mention being able to run away and reg up hp much due to stable boons and other boons/artifacts/potions etc.
We all know there is no crowd that can scream higher when it comes to their class then gwfs bar maby cws :-) those bis gwfs ingame hardly does poor in pvp any way what so ever exept in bis premade vs bis premade and again they are far from alone in that.
There are some dissadvantage to the gwf class but you seem to forget all that is good for them handing over a picture of a class in sorry state which everybody knows is far from the truth.
Cut piercing in half make arpen 200:1 which will increase gwfs survivability further and am pretty sure testing this before you ask for more is probably a good thing.
When it comes to cc DEVS you need to handle at least spamming Dailies like CB - Exe and a few others. With pve armor and recovery builds around 20k will become common for those that want to more or less spam encounters/dailies and I would STRONGLY recomend some devs to see for themself wha that does in hands of perma Trs with endless cc spam.
Looking forward to test new stuff hopefully with some devs present .....
> @lazaroth666 said: > The suggestion about a small rework on Focused Destroyer is mediocre
If PVE GWF is fine, then no need to get rid of the damage % on focused destroyer. It a not meant to be a "drastic" change lol. Its meant to be a much needed, long overdue QOL fix for the feat in PVP witjout impacting PVE. GWF have always been either overpowered or underpowered and one of the reasons has been this feat. When a GWF has the stacks up his damage is good in PVP. The problem is the stars feel like they need to align to get this built up... where as when you play agaisnt noob, they face tank your hits, let you build stacks, and the whine GWF is overpowered... little did they know they merely needed to dodge for a few seconds and GWF loses his stacks primarily because of the 25% chance to gain one...and the short duration...
Anyways I am not a PVE GWF so I defer to you on how they fair in PVE. But I do know PVP and this is one big issue. Keep PVE the same. Doesn't matter to me. Just don't want anyone accusing me of "all you want is to buff GWF" nonsense.
Comments
Certain classes, or should I say sub-trees will be affected much more than others, potentially making them useless. Oppressors do close to no damage at all; they are based on being able to defend themselves with CC. A small mistake in the timing of their rotation of their CC is devastating. And that is the only "response" they have! No DPS whatsoever to "threaten". Add to that T.Elven Battle...and chances are much further reduced. Trappers are another sub-tree that depend on CC; although some builds make them able to dish out a lot of DPS too - that may be game-breaking. GFs? Without their control powers they are unable to land their DPS effectively in pvp!
If significant nerfs to CC are made, then these sub-trees should be compensated in some way. Should this be extra DPS? How boring it would be to transform all support sub-trees into DPS, IMO. If not that, it should be extra tankiness integrated into their feats. I do hope that they manage to retain their CC-based roles though without flattening all classes into either "tank without being able to kill" vs. "cannon but vulnerable to being killed".
In sum, any changes to CC are better looked at comprehensively, and in full consideration not only of classes (and sub-trees) but also within the context of T.Elven Battle that is so prevalent in PvP. Any changes to CC should also consider how T.EB interacts with them. Whatever changes should also ackowledge a rule: more control --> less DPS.
Aelan Icebleed (CW)
However that is not a question for now as that has to do with class balance.
Thats why I'm generally not against removing arpen resist and overpenetration. In part, at least that's going somewhere, yet a lot of people trying to poke holes in it for one hundred reasons.
In NW pvp there are 2 things that stick out more then other when it comes to impacting the game in pvp and that is endless cc chains from mostly trs and piercing damage from hr and tr.
Repel cws and high burst gf is also something that has a significant impact in todays pvp.
Fixing cc is a crusial part of creating a better battle field for the general population and fixing piercing is another.
Then we have immortal buff dc endless healing pals etc etc but my guess is that i something we have to wait for and handle down the road.
If they want to remove dubble arpen resist without changing the 1:100 ratio to avoid tuching pve one solution would be to separate the resist giving heavy armored classes a higher base then lower armored, how much can easy be tested in preview over a day or 2.
I can only share your frustration about GFs! A CW can easily get one rotated by GFs between their immunity to my CC, their own CC + their DPS. It is a class I like trying to fight though, because the more I learn about how a class works, the better I get at handling them. I still get smashed a lot though lol.
I think the main point I want to make, as you have also illustrated it with several examples above, is that CC is a core mechanism for many or even most classes in Neverwinter PvP. If that is the case, careful consideration is needed before blindly nerfing it. And I agree that some CC is more "frustrating" than others. But at the same time, there is so much CC-resist available between classes with Shields, invisibility to avoid CC, encounters that break CC like ITC (TR) or cleansing touch (OP), dodges (repel can be dodged and blocked by shield). A couple of classes have the short end of the stick unfortunately like the GWF (or the DC but all DCs wear T.EB in PvP), on that front. Add in T.EB and CC gets even less effective.
Aelan Icebleed (CW)
CC is a huge part of about every mmo pvp game I ever played and even if some games start out with no cc dimish they sooner or later come to that point where it is implemented.
Abusing cc chains with high dps is what brings that change around, standing doing nothing while you die with no chanse of survival isent what players want in pvp, at least not those that are on the reciving end :-).
If you play Hr-trapper, cw repel boot, gf high burst chain or Tr endleeeeeeeees smoke cb perma itc hide (stuuuuupid soooo tired if that) you might have fun with it but the majority sure do not.
Games develop or they go under NW pvp is about as dead as it can be in a game of this size because of mostly 3 things - Premades that farm pugs, huge gear gap that prevents new from even bothering and a bad combat system where you can abuse game mechanics like cc and piercing.
Now if they implement solo queu and private queu one part of that is fixed, making a player based pvp buff instead of having to farm for gear being canon fodder during that time is a fix even if the gear gap still will be a thing it will be less so.
If they manage (with some players testing I hope) to lessen the unbalance with piercing and endless cc chains (repel is not a cc per see so its kinda a special case) with the rest of the changes I am pretty hopefull that NW pvp is on the right track even if it have taken ages.
Not having to face premades will do tons for casual players and if guild can run private matches having fun doing so am sure it will attract a lot more players then what pvp does atm.
The toughest one I see is gear gap. Unfortunately it seems to be the one being ignored... Why thats unfortunate is that fixing the gear gap WILL have ramifications on these other areas. Which means if they can balance mechanics today, they will be out of balance if you adjust "gear gap" problems.... It would have been better to adjust gear gap FIRST and then balance after the dust settles on that. The major issue that contributes to gear gap is: 1) boons 2) potions/buffs
Boons account for more stats than the sum of ALL your gear.
Potions - might be the same. Either way its a TON of stats.
I guess we will wait and see what happens..... I hope they announce something about "gear gap"
Fix those builds and get rid of undodgeable skills then PvP would be a much better place.
Mod 12.5 PvP Power/Crit/Arp Optimization
Youtube channel (PvE/PvP)
* Piercing damage pierces armor (AC and Defense) but not other stuff (like Tenacity).
* Armor Pen is only 50% effective in PvP.
I'm still not 100% convinced on the second one -- there are so many other changes that alter what AP will do (fixing the overpenetration bug, the above Piercing changes) -- but the forum consensus is very strong, and I do agree that having a reduced effectiveness provides a gentler ramp to a future world where AP scales at a rate closer to Defense (ie, moving from 100AP:1% to 200 or 300 to 1%).
If there's still a need for more help to GWFs, one possibility is to make the damage reduction from Unstoppable not count as armor (and hence, like Tenacity, not be penetrated by Armor Piercing) . Note that GWFs are very powerful in PvE, so there's a need to tread cautiously here, but this particular change could add a lot of extra survivability in PvP without affecting PvE too much. It might be right to accompany it with a slight decrease in the extra damage coming from Unstoppable (the total damage amounts we're seeing from GWFs is very high for a class that's much more resistant to damage than most other dps classes -- again, this is particularly true in PvE).
I want to encourage everyone with strong opinions here to actually test this stuff on preview. The theorycrafting is great and all, but it can only go so far. Part of where you can help us the most is actually trying it out and giving us reports from the front. (That's a big part of the idea behind the private PvP queues.)
Also, don't forget that a lot of the changes, such as possible CC tweaks, are coming later (ie, we are asking you all earlier, as requested!) and are discussed in the other PvP thread. So please do visit that thread for discussion about future changes. I'll try to keep this thread focused on changes appearing with the upcoming Chult release.
The Arpen change and piercing changes will both help gwf relative to current ptr. Less 1shot SEs that they can't dodge.
As you mentioned earlier in the thread, tr damage may be too low after this change. And maybe HR. Will see this weekend.
Iyon the Dark
- Piercing: This should have been this way from the start! Bypassing all "defense" but still being reduced by tenacity, etc.
- Armor pen: I completely agree with removing this but only AFTER you make an ARP change to 200:1% or 300:1% (frankly 300:1 is my choice but you can decide).
As for GWFs. This is my class. Very near and dear to my heart. Please, for the love of this game do not add more "layers of DR". This is part of the "broken foundation" this game has. You have so many "layers". You have Crit Resist (a layer), tenacity (a layer), damage resist (a layer), and then "special damage resist" (another layer). So we have now four layers (I think there are more when you get into things like CAB too) that all make it VERY convoluted and creates balance problems now and in the future when you go to try and balance classes.... I actually think CW shield should not be its own layer either BTW.. But anyways..
GWF is a very tricky class to balance. If you really want to fix PVP without hurting PVE this would likely be the best route:
ISSUE #1) fix "stacking". What I mean is the class is UBER reliant on stacks for damage (Destroyer class feature + Focused Destroyer feat + Destroyers Purpose capstone feat).
The PROBLEM with this, is that Destroyer class feature only lasts 4 seconds and the Focused Destroyer FEAT only gives 25% chance to gain a stack on any target.
WHY IS THIS A PROBLEM? Well in PVE its easy to keep that up. Not only do you constantly attack more than 3 enemies, but there are PLENTY of them. In PVP its impossible to keep up. Thus - BALANCE PROBLEM!!!! IF PVP GWF is good, PVE GWF is even better. If PVP GWF is only "good" likely means PVP GWF will suck! (kinda where we are at now IMO)
As you said. PVE GWF are high performers, PVP GWF are not - because they cant keep stacks up while PVE GWFS can.
BTW - this is also why in "PUG" games GWFs are seen as OP but in premades they suck (because PUGs try and facetank GWFs allowing them to build stacks)....
SOLUTION: Focused Destroyer now gives 20/40/60/80/100% chance to gain a stack off ANY attack, but NO LONGER adds up to 3.5% bonus damage per stack. Also! Stacks should last AS LONG AS Weapon Master stacks (~5 seconds I believe).
RESULT: Small PVE damage nerf (~10% less dmg) with a better balance for PVP - because now you can get and KEEP stacks much easier.
ISSUE #2) NO Immunity Frames. This is a tricky one... But again, its one of the reasons GWF has always been "UBER" or pretty crappy... I-frames allow other classes to use skill to dodge attacks. GWF cant dodge attacks but just have to "eat" the damage and WORSE! The determination gained is based off of HP lost - not damage taken - so you cant use sprint as a way to avoid damage and build your mechanic (meaning zero synergy).
Also, you have a .5 sec delay on using this ability. Which makes this impossible to pre-emtively use reliably..
So TWO possible solutions:
1) Rework. I know... unattractive as it takes time... But! A solution would be to rework sprint to be "punishing charge" which provides I-frames. The GWF would charge forward (same animation) but "dodge" any damage during that time. Since P.C. is too short, you might need to lengthen it to be more ~ the same time/distance as CW/TR dodge.
2) An easier 1 - Have Sprint provide deflect % and deflect severity instead of DR. Right now Sprint provides 30% DR (which ARP and Piercing can bypass) so assuming your Point #1 is true - it means Piercing damage can be deflected Right? Well.... If Sprint (30% Dr) instead, provided.. 60% deflect (30% DR) OR.... if 60% is too much (since if a GWF has over 40% it will put over 100% and be worthless) maybe you have sprint ALSO increase severity by 25%, which means that Sprint could provide 40% Deflect @ 75% which is the same as 30% DR but CANT be reduced by ARP/Piercing - which means its an actual viable defensive mechanic again (that also pairs WITH DR, where as currently if you hit the cap, sprint wouldnt add any more). If we keep sprint, it would be nice to get a faster "activation" with maybe more of a minimum cost to use. I dont know if you can tweak the system at all, but if your full stamina bar is at 100, maybe it takes like 25 to activate but to "sustain" it only takes like 5/sec or something. Just a thought (not set on those #s btw, but just as an example) but this allows you to have insta-activation but at a higher cost.
So those would help GWF. Unstoppable (tab) is a reactive ability that frankly is also a "crutch" but I think these two changes would be "enough" for the short term that would help GWF enough. We would now have more reliable damage via stack fixing as well as a more reliable "avoidance" mechanic which should be enough to balance the scales a bit - all without impacting PVE mind you!!! (even a small nerf to PVE damage!)
▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ ▇ █ Gankdalf The Icehole █ ▇ ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
If GWF could reliably get Destroyer stacks up 100% of the time, his damage would be in a good spot, even if Destroyer stacks themselves were nerfed a tad. This would bring PVP GWF and PVE GWF inline with eachother and not always feel like there is such a big gap between the two (damage you see compared to other classes in PVE and damage you see comapred to other classes in PVP).
I dont disagree though, GFs are pretty insane atm...
https://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter#/discussion/1231984/official-feedback-thread-m12-private-pvp-queues-a-bit-about-where-pvp-is-headed/
As people have pointed out, changing control is tricky and will require some more baking time.
▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ ▇ █ Gankdalf The Icehole █ ▇ ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Please take a look at GF dmg compared to GWF damage please. No reason why they should be doing more damage then a GWF when they are Iron Vanguard running shield warriors wrath and trample the fallen.. Yesterday I got hit by a 175k bullcharge when I was running the Valhalla set with full Valhalla stacks and 220k hp lol.
I'll need to mull over the details, and a serious GWF rework (or even a not-so-serious one) will take some time. But I wanted to talk a bit about "layers", as this is something I've been thinking about a lot recently and I wanted to let everyone know what's happening, and what I'm thinking.
There are indeed "layers" of DR in NW, but maybe not in the way you are thinking. Basically what's happening in the NW engine is there's an underlying concept called "Res" (for Resistance), and various "math pools" that say how various things that give you Res will math out. However, the words on the tooltips don't always have much if anything to do with what's going on underneath, unfortunately (something I want to improve over time).
Under the hood, the recent changes have amounted to saying something like "this math pool is going to be used for armor -- specifically Armor Class and Defense -- and this other math pool is going to be used for resistances that are NOT armor". And then armor pen should affect the pool that's armor, and not the other pool. Hence armor pen no longer affecting Tenacity.
I agree we do not want a ton of different "layers" that we keep adding on to and keep making things more complicated (hence my not-quite-successful-yet attempt to get rid of AP resistance). However, I do think we need a pool of resistance that AP negates, and another pool that it doesn't affect. For sure, Armor Class and Defense go in that first pool. For sure, Tenacity and GF/P shields go in that second pool. But after that, I think there's some room for putting things in one pool versus the other. And I don't think it makes the game more complicated. Done right, it can make the game easier to understand (ideally, I'd like all things that "feel like" armor, because they involve a physical thing that's blocking incoming damage, to be in the first pool, and things that "don't feel like" armor to be in the second pool -- but other needs like balance may interfere with that imagined world). Of course, some tooltip tweaking would need to be part of this.
So when I mention something like "should AP not work against Unstoppable damage resistance?", it's not an extra layer or making the game more complicated. It's just moving an existing damage resist ability from one (already existing) pool to another (already existing) pool.
Which doesn't mean it's the right thing to do. There are arguments for and against it. But it definitely doesn't represent an "extra layer" or anything like that (which, I agree, would not be a good thing).
Sorry if this is too much "inside baseball", but as I said I've been thinking about this kind of thing a lot lately (the changes to damage vulnerability debuffs are related to these sorts of issues, for example), and that gave me the perhaps incorrect idea that all this would be interesting/relevant/useful to people! Or at least, to the sort of people who like that sort of thing. :P
10,000 crit damage against a 30% DR player who uses Unstoppable for another 30%) with 40% tenacity DR with 40% crit resist. (this isnt exact formula but illustrates the concept).
10,000 damage is mitigated down by unstoppable and 30% DR (60% total) down to 4,000 damage.
4,000 damage mitigated by tenacity 40% and crit resist 40% = 1,440 NET result.
We have only 3 "layers" here to keep this simple.
Now, lets assume we have another 4th layer of "special DR".
10,000 damage mitigated by 30% DR = 7,000 damage. Then mitigated by Unstoppable DR (30%) = 4,900 then mitigated by tenacity 40% DR = 2,940 then mitigated by crit resist (40%) = 1,764 NET result.
So, if this is happening how I have understood it. Moving Unstoppable's DR to an unmitigated section would actually increase damage taken (1,440 damage vs 1,764 damage). Maybe I am wrong. But isnt this how it works?
If Unstoppable DR is not on its own layer it applies to the full pre-DR amount (10k in this case) if its on its own layer it responds to the net DR # (7,000 in the second case). Or does it apply to the FIRST number (10,000)?
The frustrating thing here as a player is the layering. You have ACT which gives us players the "effectiveness" values in PVP. So we go and test some abilities and come back at things like 39% effective! Yay! But then if that same move crits, it gets hit (currently) buy a -45% reduction in damage again, but luckily we get crit bonus (75%) Well its not additive, they are multiplicative, so you end up with
10,000 @ 39% effective = 3,900. If it crits *1,75 but crit resist @45% = 3,753 NET damage.
So here (with 45% crit resist but 75% severity) we actually do LESS damage.
Also what is our effectiveness?
10,000 * 1.75 = 17,500 and we did 3,753 = 21.44% effective (versus 39% non crits...)
So these are problems... Your crit did LESS damage than a non crit.... Because of "layering".
So this is where "Layering" becomes a problem.
Or lets take this example: lets say you DROPPED your armor pen and grabbed POWER instead.
Well your base damage might go from 10,000 to 14,000. Ok. Well at 20% effective values (the minimum) that = less damage (2,800) but NOW your crit doesnt get double hit since MINIMUM effective values stay at 20%. So your crit would be 14,000 *1.75 *20% (min effectiveness) = 4,900!
So things like ARP are counter productive to crits and vice versa. The higher your non crit "effectiveness" the lower damage bonus crits provide... Its a very weird "inverse" relationship ALL due to "layering"....
ALL of these weird "maths" come from the layering that keeps going on.... This is what makes it SUPER confusing for players.
Maybe I am WAYYYY off base. This is from literally YEARS of testing and building excel sheets and data and I am a human being so I could be wrong... but this is what I have seen....
Layers = problems.
The better solution would be REMOVE layers.... Especially surrounding crit resist so that it merely works as a NEGATIVE "crit severtity" rather than a "layer". Same with DR. Dont have "layers". Tenacity should be the only special "layer" that merely takes ALL the damage after the dust settles and then reduces it by X% (40%).
But crit resist? It should be something like 80% LESS severity.
So if you have 75% severity, now you have 15% Severity in PVP.
If you have 110% severity, now you have 22% severity in PVP.
IT shouldnt "layer" and "double dip" etc.
The issue with GWFs is that their unstoppable is too easily countered by a small investment in stats. At 100:1% even a MAX unstoppable was providing 30% Dr which is a mere 3,000 ARP and its completely wasted.
Atleast with ARP being 50% effective, its closer to 200:1 which means its closer to probably 7,000 ARP to counter a GWFs unstoppable now... Which seems more reasonable.
The REAL issue with GWF is what I outlined above though - not that unstoppable can be countered via ARP and piercing but that GWF has no "preemptive" way to avoid damage and also is FAR to reliant on a crappy "stacking" mechanism that works fine against bad players who sit and facetank a GWF and works FINE in PVE where NPCs are galor and you are constaly able to attack and keep stacks up... but in PVP when someone dodges you 2x, there is a REALLY high chance you will lose all destroyer stacks and are now gonna hit like a wet noodle.
So to fix GWF short term - DONT add more layers. Fix Focused Destroyer (feat) like I proposed and then adjust Sprint so that IT can be used as the "preemptive" damage avoidance. Now GWF has the tools needed to be competitive.
The suggestion about a small rework on Focused Destroyer is mediocre (I mean no offense). The GWF Destroyer PvE can build stacks inmediately so that change would be barely noticeable and it will affect enormously his damage output vs elite/brute enemies where the stacks (increased damage) really matter. @rgutscheradev as you can easily notice, it is a change meant to be useful only for PvP, nerfing the GWF PvE damage which is exactly what I mentioned in my first paragraph. Both PvE and PvP don't need to be in-line, due to many different circunstances or situations the mechanics of the class will behave in a different way. A smarter approach would be to modify the duration of the stacks according to the number of enemies. Increased duration of the stacks if there's only 1 enemy and reduce 1 second for every additional nearby enemy up to 5 seconds, this means that the stacks would require a base duration of 9 seconds which should greatly help in PvP without having a huge impact the PvE side.
Lets try not to get out of hands with biased information.
Trying to say that Gwf is weak and useless in pvp is stretching it to say the least.
Not having a dodge when it comes to tr exe sure, before change against hr piercing sure(even if you are far from alone in this).
Gf having far more damage then gwf is a dowright lie and the only reason gf can preform better is due to cc chain with high burst damage AFTER building stacks and marking target (yea it takes some time for gf to build stack to get full burst also).
Now block is superior when it comes to tanking but then again unstoppable is superior when it comes to cc resist and being able to actually be able to fight.
Gwf has a huge advantage when it comes to regaining life due to lifesteal and unstoppable compared to gfs not to mention being able to run away and reg up hp much due to stable boons and other boons/artifacts/potions etc.
We all know there is no crowd that can scream higher when it comes to their class then gwfs bar maby cws :-) those bis gwfs ingame hardly does poor in pvp any way what so ever exept in bis premade vs bis premade and again they are far from alone in that.
There are some dissadvantage to the gwf class but you seem to forget all that is good for them handing over a picture of a class in sorry state which everybody knows is far from the truth.
Cut piercing in half make arpen 200:1 which will increase gwfs survivability further and am pretty sure testing this before you ask for more is probably a good thing.
When it comes to cc DEVS you need to handle at least spamming Dailies like CB - Exe and a few others.
With pve armor and recovery builds around 20k will become common for those that want to more or less spam encounters/dailies and I would STRONGLY recomend some devs to see for themself wha that does in hands of perma Trs with endless cc spam.
Looking forward to test new stuff hopefully with some devs present .....
> The suggestion about a small rework on Focused Destroyer is mediocre
If PVE GWF is fine, then no need to get rid of the damage % on focused destroyer. It a not meant to be a "drastic" change lol. Its meant to be a much needed, long overdue QOL fix for the feat in PVP witjout impacting PVE. GWF have always been either overpowered or underpowered and one of the reasons has been this feat. When a GWF has the stacks up his damage is good in PVP. The problem is the stars feel like they need to align to get this built up... where as when you play agaisnt noob, they face tank your hits, let you build stacks, and the whine GWF is overpowered... little did they know they merely needed to dodge for a few seconds and GWF loses his stacks primarily because of the 25% chance to gain one...and the short duration...
Anyways I am not a PVE GWF so I defer to you on how they fair in PVE. But I do know PVP and this is one big issue. Keep PVE the same. Doesn't matter to me. Just don't want anyone accusing me of "all you want is to buff GWF" nonsense.