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Official Feedback Thread: M12 Armor Pen Changes and PvP

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  • nisckisnisckis Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 655 Arc User
    @rgutscheradev as @thefabricant said, changing ARP this way would cause a lot of problems with PVE.

    It would make much more sense if new monsters and zones have their content with a bigger DR%, and it doesn't have to end at 100%, it would be perfectly acceptable that in long term, some Bosses and even minions just get 150%DR o bigger (as an example). For PVE you will just need to discover the new DR limit and make changes for reaching it.

    Please, do not let that trying to resolve PVP problems they are moved to/created in PVE.

  • sh00termcl0vinsh00termcl0vin Member Posts: 287 Arc User
    @rgutscheradev

    Excellent points about piercing damage and the way it is setup. I think most players would agree that the fact that it ignores everything is a big problem in regards to certain classes. I am looking forward to the changes you guys have planned and I just wanted to say we appreciate all the hard work you guys put in.

    I also had a question in regards to the way the new RI mechanic is going to work when interacting with player powers. Earlier you mentioned that powers that reduce damage resistance are being adjusted to give bonus damage instead (unless I'm reading that wrong) and that it will no longer be possible to reduce player DR past 0 to gain bonus damage. Will this apply to certain things like Mark on a gf? I believe this is where a lot of complaints come for with the "one shot" gf builds. Using both tab mark and threatening rush will cause a target to become double marked and take extremely high damage. Will the new changes effect the way this works going forward?
    image
  • rayrdanrayrdan Member Posts: 5,410 Arc User

    @rgutscheradev



    Excellent points about piercing damage and the way it is setup. I think most players would agree that the fact that it ignores everything is a big problem in regards to certain classes. I am looking forward to the changes you guys have planned and I just wanted to say we appreciate all the hard work you guys put in.



    I also had a question in regards to the way the new RI mechanic is going to work when interacting with player powers. Earlier you mentioned that powers that reduce damage resistance are being adjusted to give bonus damage instead (unless I'm reading that wrong) and that it will no longer be possible to reduce player DR past 0 to gain bonus damage. Will this apply to certain things like Mark on a gf? I believe this is where a lot of complaints come for with the "one shot" gf builds. Using both tab mark and threatening rush will cause a target to become double marked and take extremely high damage. Will the new changes effect the way this works going forward?

    @rgutscheradev
    the guy here has a point.
    Marks coming from the same GF (GWFs too) can stack on top of each others granting massive and probably unintented damage bonus which is not affected by tenacity and crit reduction like piercing damage.

    about piercing damage itself: your solution seems ok as long as the players can boost their own damages with their own damage bonuses.

    about armor pen: i always stated that 100:1 curve for armor pen was too low and even in pve is a major source of powers crit. Nowadays a 200:1 curve could be ok.
    And you can see it...how many people complain that new sets dont always have power/crit combo? We are well over the 60% armor pen requirements
  • beckylunaticbeckylunatic Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 14,231 Arc User

    No pve Arpen change should be made without an offsetting change to mob dr. The developer already Said this won't be happening in mod 12, so don't worry :)

    I'm not worried, or at least no more so than usual. If anything, I'd say that the inconsistency of arpen giving 1% RI for every 100 pts instead of the more usual 1:400 was implemented so that appropriate numbers were achievable in M6 without too much difficulty, as long as you made educated choices. It will be an undertaking to make it consistent, even if this is on the table later for the good of the game.

    I don't feel the devs have intentionally designed anything to date that require any PvE player to have access to specific guild boons or mount bonuses to be successful (I know full well that PvP is a different animal), only that these options can make things much easier, and I don't think they're about to start now.
    Guild Leader - The Lords of Light

    Neverwinter Census 2017

    All posts pending disapproval by Cecilia
  • ayrouxayroux Member Posts: 4,271 Arc User
    macjae said:

    pterias said:

    Am I missing something, or is everyone over-thinking this? I'm all for removing Tenacity and agree that "resistance bypass resistance" is straight from the Department of Redundancy Department. Couldn't it just be reworked / reworded into "Armor Penetration is only half (or 1/4th) as effective against other players"? Certain control powers are already presented this way (reduced effectiveness vs. players). Taking this approach could be a seamless way to get rid of Tenacity straight out.

    This is pretty much what people are arguing by wanting to retain some value of Armor Penetration Resistance (75% in most cases, what you're suggesting is basically just a 50% version of the same). The problem is that there's more complexity to the system, and it all goes back to this: Before Module 6, all stats had diminishing returns, and Armor Penetration didn't scale significantly different than other stats. After that, they had Armor Penetration scale up much faster than other stats, which means it now hits diminishing returns faster, while making straight additive bonuses relatively less worthwhile (and especially so if they also get hit by a 50% reduction). For example, +1% RI from a stat (say Dexterity or something) used to be reasonably comparable to +1% damage, and still is against NPCs. However, if it is reduced against PCs (to +0.5% or even +0.25%), suddenly it's not so comparable.

    This is why the most sane approach currently would be to have a separate PvP Armor Penetration statistic that scales as other stats do. It would mean the stats would progress at the same rate, and additive bonuses would not behave differently between PvP and PvE. It's also easier to refer directly to that value rather than having to halve (or divide by four or whatever) your "normal" value first.
    This is very true. Wise post.

    Before mod 6, I didnt feel like any stat was "godmode" compared to others. Some players ran high HP, some ran high crit, some ran higher ARP, etc. etc.

    When they did this wonky re-work of ARP (so PVE mobs had much more DR) it boosted the requirement of ARP and then at the same time they ALSO made it 2x-3x as easy to get (which didnt make any sense to me LOL).

    So the BEST solution long term would be to make ARP more like 200:1 or 300:1 and then scale back enemy DR in PVP.



    The bottom line:
    - removing ARP Resistance overall I think is a good thing. It reduces the "gap" of the PVE and PVP player builds which is something we need. HOWEVER!
    - It has DRASTIC negative impacts as now a minimal investment in ARP (heck even just taking the SH 8k ARP boon) makes nearly ALL DR worthless: Armor Class, Azure Defensive Slots, Negation Enchant, DR buffs on abilities etc. etc.

    Personally, I would love to see Armor Class improved and be much more worth while than it is right now.


    One issue that I see with the "GWF DR on its own layer" HAMSTER is we are building ontop of a broken system. The broken system is we first introduced piercing damage because DR was too high, then piercing was too good, so they started to introduce DR on its own layer, so ARP and piercing couldnt bypass, etc. etc.

    We just keep adding more and more "exceptions" to the rules and all it does is build on an already crappy foundation making it harder and harder to fix later.

    What we NEED is to remove all the "special layers" of DR and they are currently already making a nice change to piercing so that tenacity impacts it now. This is good.

    What we also need to do, is come up with a solution where PVP changes DONT impact PVE.

    As I said before, there are many solutions to this, probably the most realistic and easiest to do, is to bring about a different "stat curve" for PVP on all stats. @josiahiyon has written an entire thread about this here:https://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter/#/discussion/1229238/pvp-suggestions-keep-it-simple-stupid-solutions/p1

    This addresses the ARP concern as well as gear gap/power gap between players. You can fine tune PVP much easier having its own "stat curves"

    I would also suggest applying this "stat curve" to Trade of Blades - which then allows you to go there to see your stats.

    Things like Open World PVP can be PVE stat curves (since you allow companions anyways) so no change there.

    This is in all honesty the BEST option for the game that is also the easiest to implement.

  • plaviaplavia Member Posts: 540 Arc User

    Lots of good stuff here, keep it coming!

    Here are my thoughts based on what I'm seeing so far:
    1) Lots of complaints about piercing abilities (HR and TR being the focus).

    I also don't like where piercing is right now.

    Looking at how it's implemented, the first thing that jumps out at me is that it really doesn't work the way the tooltip says, which is "Piercing damage cannot be deflected and ignores armor". The part about deflection is true, but really piercing damage is built to ignore any kind of damage mod on the target at all...

    I'd like to make piercing work like the tooltip says, and just ignore deflection and armor (as opposed to ignoring almost everything). That will make it worse (but, I suspect, still good, given the underlying numbers on a lot of these powers) in PvP, where Tenacity is such a huge factor. It will make it better in PvE, where there's no Tenacity, but damage vulnerability stacking is very important. ...

    2) Much discussion on the net effect of the changes as far as how good AP is.

    People shouldn't forget that fixing the AP overdamage bug is a big deal. It wasn't hard to stack enough AP to be getting that AP damage bonus. And the super-heavy AP build absolutely was (is, on live) a thing. So I think the jury is still out whether AP is much better now or not.
    ...

    1) regarding piercing damage. its nice to see you look at that. i don't think 5 points in one feat or using specifc daily should completly eliminate my aromr, artifacts, boons, enchants... and kill me in one sec.
    but you should open new discussion on this subject. i am sure many players have opnion if you show them the proposed change.

    2) ArP is number 1 cause for missbalance today. its order of magnitude bigger then any of the other issues.
    i play the game since start and always play PVP. Somewhere at mod9 i couldn't leave the campfire.
    I couldn't do damage and players kill me in few sec.
    every time it was the same story, they had 10K+ ArP with guild boon an i had 3K with guild rank8
    Today my guild is 18 and gap is not big. i am sure other small guilds level up as well.
    still ArP is the root cause for all the situation players do 0 damage while receive tons.

    I still didn't understand the change
    assume player have 35% DR and 2K tenacity.
    facing 10k ArP player. what damage he get now and what after?
    facing 3K ArP player, what before and what after?

    same calculation against player with 25% DR and 500 tenacity?

    ppl say its easy to get ArP but its not true.
    There are few boons that give ArP and few armors as well.
    rest is crazy expensive and even than you could hardly reach 7K.

    ppl look at premade like they have secert ingredient that make them imortal and you squishy
    i remember fighting premade all the time and even win some before guilds came out.
  • ayrouxayroux Member Posts: 4,271 Arc User



    * With the bug fixed, AP is much less powerful. So it makes sense to reduce AP Resist to counteract that. What should AP Resist be lowered to? The simplest value, and thus the one to try first, is zero.

    * Long run, we’d like to get rid of the Tenacity system. Getting rid of AP Resist is a first step, and now is a good time.
    * It’s kind of a stupid stat. The Defense stat (armor) is damage resist. Armor penetration is damage resist resist. So AP Resist is really damage resist resist resist. It’s just not right.

    @rgutscheradev just wanted to post on this... I want to echo this, "in the long run we'd like to get rid of tenacity".
    This is one of the BEST things I have seen on the forums (repeating myself from previous posts).

    Now, to answer your question you asked:
    "So it makes sense to reduce AP Resist to counteract that. What should AP Resist be lowered to?"

    Well, for NOW. The answer is: 50%.

    In your other comments, you reference talking about bumping ARP to 200:1 or 300:1 to be more "fair" and at the same time reducing PVE requirements (meaning mobs wont have 75% RI or higher) by reducing that down to maybe 35% or something. All good stuff!

    however until that is changed (ARP 200:1 or higher) PVP is going to be a mess.... So the best thing to do, would be to make ARP 200:1 in PVP until that change. Well, how do we do that WITHOUT impacting PVE?

    We keep ARP res, but at a lesser value - 50%. With the understanding "this will go away when ARP changes to 200:1 or higher".

    I think at a 50% ARP resistance, it will accomplish what you are looking to do long term, without breaking the short term.
  • bajancloakbajancloak Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 30 Arc User
    I would say I am an average skilled 15k + GWF and I am a bit confused. From my POV, tenacity is not a problem. Its just a requirement to do PVP. The same way you grind to get gear for PVE, you grind to get Gear for PVP. I am not in a PVP guild and it took awhile but I got to BIS by grinding.

    The main issues, again from my POV in PVP are as follows:

    1) Enchantment Gap. Simple. A full PVP geared GWF with Rank 8 Enchants can not beat a full PVP geared GWF with Rank 12 Enchants.

    2) Piercing damage. - This is insane and has been going on far to long. Again this ties in with the Enchantment Gap. I have no issues 1v1 against say a 12 - 13k Hr once I don't make a mistake. However I just melt against the rest. Not ever one is as skilled as Saber or IcyDrake.

    3) Premades - Deadly combo of GF/TR, GF/HR, or HR/TR

    Can someone explain what this overstacking of ARMPEN is. I cant say I have ever seen it or realized I have done it. I can get to 16k ArmPen but don't deal "massive amounts of damage". Additionally this "double mark affect" I have seem mentioned. I cant say it has done me any good as I don't see the "massive amount of damage". Maybe I have been playing against to many BIS player of late :)

    N.B. I really hope I dont have to sit the next Module out but it seems that I may have to do just that based on what I have read so far. The Main difference between the BIS GWF and the other classes the last few mods is that you cant afford to make a mistake. Against a GF, TR, HR, and other GWFs its either be on point or dead.
  • trentbail21trentbail21 Member Posts: 433 Arc User
    edited June 2017
    I have a few suggestions.

    1. Remove all resistances from the PVP armor.
    2. Give a global buff to all resistances. 40% damage resistance, 40% crit severity resistance, 40% control resistance and 40% armor pen resistance. (maybe 33% on all the values I'm not sure which would be best..)
    3. Make Conqueror guardian fighters weaker in PVP then GWFs and make piercing damage respect the global buff to armor.
    4. Increase alot of the other rogues powers damage. (Not shocking or courage breaker)

    Hey look I just fixed PVP by making armor pen better in PVP so all classes will be easier to kill but NOT SUPER SQUISHY. This would also weaken Conqueror GF's, Combat HR's and Rogues because they have been extremely dominate for many mods. This solution would also have no effect on ANY PVE content and it would make it easier for them to play PVP with us!
    Find me in game if you want and send me a domination/ gaunt invite. If you are good and im not busy ill play with you. Im not an elitist ill play with almost anyone.
  • ayrouxayroux Member Posts: 4,271 Arc User


    The main issues, again from my POV in PVP are as follows:

    1) Enchantment Gap. Simple. A full PVP geared GWF with Rank 8 Enchants can not beat a full PVP geared GWF with Rank 12 Enchants.

    2) Piercing damage. - This is insane and has been going on far to long. Again this ties in with the Enchantment Gap. I have no issues 1v1 against say a 12 - 13k Hr once I don't make a mistake. However I just melt against the rest. Not ever one is as skilled as Saber or IcyDrake.

    3) Premades - Deadly combo of GF/TR, GF/HR, or HR/TR

    Can someone explain what this overstacking of ARMPEN is. I cant say I have ever seen it or realized I have done it. I can get to 16k ArmPen but don't deal "massive amounts of damage". Additionally this "double mark affect" I have seem mentioned. I cant say it has done me any good as I don't see the "massive amount of damage". Maybe I have been playing against to many BIS player of late :)

    N.B. I really hope I dont have to sit the next Module out but it seems that I may have to do just that based on what I have read so far. The Main difference between the BIS GWF and the other classes the last few mods is that you cant afford to make a mistake. Against a GF, TR, HR, and other GWFs its either be on point or dead.

    1) I agree and actually "enchants" play a very small role in the gap. If it were merely "enchants" then I would actually disagree. The stat values between a rank 12 and rank 10 or rank 8 are actually pretty small, to the point where its a very small % increase. What makes a MASSIVE increase are when you start adding a player who has all his boons, versus someone who may only have half his boons. Someone who has a rank 20 SH with 8k SH boons, versus someone who may only have rank 10 SH boons (4k). Someone who has insignias, verssus someone who has maybe green ones.... Someone who has, say, FULL pots versus a non potted person (https://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter/#/discussion/comment/12957860) which BTW, "Fully Potted" is the equivalent of about ~"38 Rank12 hybrid enchants worth of extra stat. "

    So as I said. If it were MERELY a matter of "rank 12s vs rank 8s" we actually wouldnt have a problem... But its rank 12s + boons+insignias+pots etc. versus an "average player" and there is just NO way to overcome that gear gap.


    2) Piercing Damage - they have just said they will revise this, so hopefully its not a problem but piercing is very stupid and was not a good call. So I am glad they will reverse this. Right now TRs can literally 1 shot players from 100% HP with a Shocking Exec. Which is stupid IMO. So I am glad this is going away (looks like it will NOW respect tenacity) as it always should have.

    3) Premades - I actually disagree this is much of a problem and think the REAL issue is that most people that actually take the time to premade are players who are "BIS" max item level, boon, potted, players...So the REAL issue is the #1 problem - the gear gap. People often mistake the "premade problem" for the "gear gap problem" which is understandable.... If you have 5 people who are a premade, who are all BIS gear, versus 5 "randoms" its understandable to say "oh well we lose cause its a premade" when in REALITY you should be saying "oh well we lose because they OUTGEAR us". Thats the real problem.

    Back in modules 0-3 days, I used to solo Que and Duo que ALL THE TIME and get matched against premades and WIN. The difference was - the gear gap between an "average" player and a "best in slot" player was much smaller. So I could win 1v1 on my node, and my other 4 PUGs could zerg 1 other node and likely take on 2 or 3 "best in slot guys" and we could win.... Now... 1 "best in slot" guy can take on 3 or 4 PUG players by HIMSELF... making it impossible for any level of "skill" or "fairness"...

    TLDR: We dont have a premade problem, we have a GEAR GAP problem.


    "Can someone explain what this overstacking of ARMPEN is"
    - To make this a SHORT answer. Lets say you have 160% Resistance Ignored. You attack someone who has only 20% DR (but had maybe 75% Arp Resist). Well your 160% would be SHRUNK to 40% in PVP. Which FULLY mitigates your enemies 20% DR, but then ALSO would bring him into "negative DR land" (-20% DR) which means that ROUGHLY any "extra" ARP you had was essentially giving you the same benefit as what power would give (bonus damage).

    So this is why in PVP everyone stacked ARP to the teeth - because even stacking it above your enemies DR % would provide more damage, so it wasnt wasted.

    But NOW what will happen... Is you wont even need to stack 160% RI because you can save yourself like 8k ARP stat and just grab like 100% RI instead and since there is no ARP resist, 100% will mitigate nearly ANY and ALL DR possible in PVP.... so now you can take that same 8k and plop that into power or crit or HP or whatever and still do "full" damage against any DR % opponent.

    CURRENT LIVE: 100 damage with 160% RI versus 80% DR target and 75% Arp Resist (40% tenacity too). (this is rough math and not how the code works but illustrates the change).

    160% RI is mitigated down to 40% RI via 75% arp resist. 80% DR - 40% RI = net 40% DR.
    100 damage - 40% DR = 60 damage.
    60 damage - 40% tenacity = 36 damage.

    NOW how it will work:
    160% RI isnt mitigated AT ALL. Fully mitigates all DR. So net DR = 0%.
    100 damage - 0% DR = 100 damage
    100 damage - 40% tenacity = 60 damage.

    Net change = (60-36) / (36) = 67% MORE damage taken than on LIVE.


    So since 160% RI isnt even needed, people will ALSO drop maybe 60% RI which would give them maybe 6000 more power (rough math) which again is ~10% more damage (rough math) which means your "base" isnt 100 its now 110 MEANING:

    110 damage - 0% DR = 110 damage
    110 - 40% tenacity = 66 damage.

    (66-36) / (36) = 83% more damage than on LIVE...

    Again, this is VERY ROUGH illustration but it just shows what has now happened to "Damage Resist" - its worthless.

  • tesfanboytesfanboy Member Posts: 6 Arc User
    edited June 2017
    Edit: never mind, I saw this was addressed
    Post edited by tesfanboy on
  • bajancloakbajancloak Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 30 Arc User
    ayroux said:


    The main issues, again from my POV in PVP are as follows:

    1) Enchantment Gap. Simple. A full PVP geared GWF with Rank 8 Enchants can not beat a full PVP geared GWF with Rank 12 Enchants.

    2) Piercing damage. - This is insane and has been going on far to long. Again this ties in with the Enchantment Gap. I have no issues 1v1 against say a 12 - 13k Hr once I don't make a mistake. However I just melt against the rest. Not ever one is as skilled as Saber or IcyDrake.

    3) Premades - Deadly combo of GF/TR, GF/HR, or HR/TR

    Can someone explain what this overstacking of ARMPEN is. I cant say I have ever seen it or realized I have done it. I can get to 16k ArmPen but don't deal "massive amounts of damage". Additionally this "double mark affect" I have seem mentioned. I cant say it has done me any good as I don't see the "massive amount of damage". Maybe I have been playing against to many BIS player of late :)

    N.B. I really hope I dont have to sit the next Module out but it seems that I may have to do just that based on what I have read so far. The Main difference between the BIS GWF and the other classes the last few mods is that you cant afford to make a mistake. Against a GF, TR, HR, and other GWFs its either be on point or dead.

    1) I agree and actually "enchants" play a very small role in the gap. If it were merely "enchants" then I would actually disagree. The stat values between a rank 12 and rank 10 or rank 8 are actually pretty small, to the point where its a very small % increase. What makes a MASSIVE increase are when you start adding a player who has all his boons, versus someone who may only have half his boons. Someone who has a rank 20 SH with 8k SH boons, versus someone who may only have rank 10 SH boons (4k). Someone who has insignias, verssus someone who has maybe green ones.... Someone who has, say, FULL pots versus a non potted person (https://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter/#/discussion/comment/12957860) which BTW, "Fully Potted" is the equivalent of about ~"38 Rank12 hybrid enchants worth of extra stat. "

    So as I said. If it were MERELY a matter of "rank 12s vs rank 8s" we actually wouldnt have a problem... But its rank 12s + boons+insignias+pots etc. versus an "average player" and there is just NO way to overcome that gear gap.


    2) Piercing Damage - they have just said they will revise this, so hopefully its not a problem but piercing is very stupid and was not a good call. So I am glad they will reverse this. Right now TRs can literally 1 shot players from 100% HP with a Shocking Exec. Which is stupid IMO. So I am glad this is going away (looks like it will NOW respect tenacity) as it always should have.

    3) Premades - I actually disagree this is much of a problem and think the REAL issue is that most people that actually take the time to premade are players who are "BIS" max item level, boon, potted, players...So the REAL issue is the #1 problem - the gear gap. People often mistake the "premade problem" for the "gear gap problem" which is understandable.... If you have 5 people who are a premade, who are all BIS gear, versus 5 "randoms" its understandable to say "oh well we lose cause its a premade" when in REALITY you should be saying "oh well we lose because they OUTGEAR us". Thats the real problem.

    Back in modules 0-3 days, I used to solo Que and Duo que ALL THE TIME and get matched against premades and WIN. The difference was - the gear gap between an "average" player and a "best in slot" player was much smaller. So I could win 1v1 on my node, and my other 4 PUGs could zerg 1 other node and likely take on 2 or 3 "best in slot guys" and we could win.... Now... 1 "best in slot" guy can take on 3 or 4 PUG players by HIMSELF... making it impossible for any level of "skill" or "fairness"...

    TLDR: We dont have a premade problem, we have a GEAR GAP problem.


    "Can someone explain what this overstacking of ARMPEN is"
    - To make this a SHORT answer. Lets say you have 160% Resistance Ignored. You attack someone who has only 20% DR (but had maybe 75% Arp Resist). Well your 160% would be SHRUNK to 40% in PVP. Which FULLY mitigates your enemies 20% DR, but then ALSO would bring him into "negative DR land" (-20% DR) which means that ROUGHLY any "extra" ARP you had was essentially giving you the same benefit as what power would give (bonus damage).

    So this is why in PVP everyone stacked ARP to the teeth - because even stacking it above your enemies DR % would provide more damage, so it wasnt wasted.

    But NOW what will happen... Is you wont even need to stack 160% RI because you can save yourself like 8k ARP stat and just grab like 100% RI instead and since there is no ARP resist, 100% will mitigate nearly ANY and ALL DR possible in PVP.... so now you can take that same 8k and plop that into power or crit or HP or whatever and still do "full" damage against any DR % opponent.

    CURRENT LIVE: 100 damage with 160% RI versus 80% DR target and 75% Arp Resist (40% tenacity too). (this is rough math and not how the code works but illustrates the change).

    160% RI is mitigated down to 40% RI via 75% arp resist. 80% DR - 40% RI = net 40% DR.
    100 damage - 40% DR = 60 damage.
    60 damage - 40% tenacity = 36 damage.

    NOW how it will work:
    160% RI isnt mitigated AT ALL. Fully mitigates all DR. So net DR = 0%.
    100 damage - 0% DR = 100 damage
    100 damage - 40% tenacity = 60 damage.

    Net change = (60-36) / (36) = 67% MORE damage taken than on LIVE.


    So since 160% RI isnt even needed, people will ALSO drop maybe 60% RI which would give them maybe 6000 more power (rough math) which again is ~10% more damage (rough math) which means your "base" isnt 100 its now 110 MEANING:

    110 damage - 0% DR = 110 damage
    110 - 40% tenacity = 66 damage.

    (66-36) / (36) = 83% more damage than on LIVE...

    Again, this is VERY ROUGH illustration but it just shows what has now happened to "Damage Resist" - its worthless.

    Thanks for breaking it down like that. I now have a better understanding of the situation. Especially how if the change to DR goes live and the impact on GWFs.
  • mamalion1234mamalion1234 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 3,404 Arc User
    IF we deal more damage in module 12 in pvp that means it counters the insane self healing.
  • rustlordrustlord Member Posts: 1,454 Arc User
    edited June 2017
    Lots of good stuff, lots of hype, personal agendas and what have you. But overall happy to see PvP getting a tiny bit of affection. Always better than none!

    Since I might as well jump in with the sharks... xD

    Neverwinter has a great combat style, would have made for one of the best PvP but then it has these layers and layers of DR, and redundant resist-resist opposite that, plus an assortment of kinks and pieces that's just there to its own detriment. Tenacity, overpenetration, dr-resist-resit all have to go. Shields need to be plain additive DR, not hand out new ones. To balance that, arpen stat needs a pvp-only stat curve with emphasis on its 200:1 or 300:1 relationship with available DR. In fact, all stats need pvp-only diminishing returns, guessing boons and pots won't be too much an issue then. Fine tune piercing damage.

    Would love it to go back to skill and gameplay after 3 years. Here's to hoping..
    Post edited by rustlord on
  • armadeonxarmadeonx Member Posts: 4,952 Arc User
    Tenacity is one part of the problem, especially for non-dedicated pvp'ers, so I'm glad we are getting this rework.

    Piercing damage and stun-chaining are another. Only two classes can achieve this combo so it's no surprise they are over-represented in pvp. Both of these attack types need addressing.

    The point not really talked about though is more separation of pvp/pve power/feat definitions. We have a few powers that have limited functionality in pvp but this needs to be rolled out more and also apply to some feats. This is the real 'tweak playground' where the devs can address certain imbalances head-on.
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    Zohar De Armadeon: TR
    Chrion De Armadeon: SW
    Gosti Big Belly: GWF
    Barney McRustbucket: GF
    Lt. Thackeray: HR
    Lucius De Armadeon: BD


    Member of Casual Dailies - XBox
  • emilemoemilemo Member Posts: 1,718 Arc User


    It ignores pretty much everything but GF/P shields (which are built in a completely different way -- they are not technically a kind of damage resist, so piercing doesn't get a chance to ignore them).

    Are you sure the above is correct? It seems what you meant is that the Paladin shield shares the mechanic of the GF shield which it does not. The GF shield is a separate layer of DR and the Paladin shield isnt. Has this been changed without me realizing?
    Row, row, row your boat, Gently down the stream.
    Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, Life is but a dream.
  • bajancloakbajancloak Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 30 Arc User
    Realistically speaking. Dev Resources are limited for PVP. What are the chances that those classes dependent on DR to not be totally screwed when it goes LIVE?
  • mahburgmahburg Member Posts: 598 Arc User
    Speaking as someone who gave up on PVP as my toons are PVE based, this would encourage a lot of folk back into PVP as it appears to level the playing field, this has been long overdue imho.

    Like these proposed changes.

    Cheers
  • treesclimbertreesclimber Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,161 Arc User
    @josiahiyon thx for the answer, but don't forget deflection builds are always an option so those values can be highly changed.

  • treesclimbertreesclimber Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,161 Arc User
    edited June 2017


    That said, I agree with what people are saying that it's weird for 100 points of AP to counter 400 points of Defense. In general, it's a game design principle that answers need to be stronger than threats (because a threat without an answer is still good, but an answer with no threat is useless -- so the answer needs a buff to make up for that fundamental asymmetry). But four times better? My feeling is something like 200 AP = 1% increase to Resistance Ignored would make more sense (or maybe 300, but I'd start out at 200). Also, it's a bit too easy to get AP right now in PvE, compared to how much you actually need, and rather than make everyone's gear give less, I think it's better to make people need more! However, I also agree with those who think it's too big a change to make right now. For the Chult release, I don't want to do anything so drastic, but in a future release I'd be willing to consider going to 200 AP = 1% RI, with a more-or-less corresponding reduction in monster resistances (these are templated, so a rework isn't as terrifying as it might sound). We'll be thinking about that some more on our end.

    @rgutscheradev but the answer to your threat is Hit points, there is absolutely no point in building defense unless you made arm pen 500:1, HP will always take advantage, there is times Life steal will break the HP value, and ofc many, many powers are HP player based, wheel of the element, insignia, wilds medicin, unstopable recovery, ferocious reaction, borrowed time etc in fact if i want to heal myself better it's a better if i build HP instead incoming healing, not to mention a lot of guilds don't have access to HP boon.

  • mamalion1234mamalion1234 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 3,404 Arc User


    That said, I agree with what people are saying that it's weird for 100 points of AP to counter 400 points of Defense. In general, it's a game design principle that answers need to be stronger than threats (because a threat without an answer is still good, but an answer with no threat is useless -- so the answer needs a buff to make up for that fundamental asymmetry). But four times better? My feeling is something like 200 AP = 1% increase to Resistance Ignored would make more sense (or maybe 300, but I'd start out at 200). Also, it's a bit too easy to get AP right now in PvE, compared to how much you actually need, and rather than make everyone's gear give less, I think it's better to make people need more! However, I also agree with those who think it's too big a change to make right now. For the Chult release, I don't want to do anything so drastic, but in a future release I'd be willing to consider going to 200 AP = 1% RI, with a more-or-less corresponding reduction in monster resistances (these are templated, so a rework isn't as terrifying as it might sound). We'll be thinking about that some more on our end.

    @rgutscheradev but the answer to your threat is Hit points, there is absolutely no point in building defense unless you made arm pen 500:1, HP will always take advantage, there is times Life steal will break the HP value, and ofc many, many powers are HP player based, wheel of the element, insignia, wilds medicin, unstopable recovery, ferocious reaction, borrowed time etc in fact if i want to heal myself better it's a better if i build HP instead incoming healing, not to mention a lot of guilds don't have access to HP boon.
    hp boon was always a good stat for pve too i dont get that: a lot guilds dont have access.
  • josiahiyonjosiahiyon Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 396 Arc User

    @josiahiyon thx for the answer, but don't forget deflection builds are always an option so those values can be highly changed.

    Yes, and which classes benefit the most when deflection becomes more important than dr? The low-dr classes. Astral shield and Hallowed ground can't be changed to give deflection. Foresight can't be changed to give deflection. DR becomes effectively worthless on the ptr, which means DR buffs are worthless.

    Right now, if the option is to either (1) remove arpen suppression or (2) don't remove it, then answer is a resounding don't remove arpen suppresion until mod 12b or 13 when there is more time to develop a comprehensive well-balanced approach to the tenacity overall. But keep the bug fix, arpen shouldn't be able to bring dr below 0%.
    Pvpbysynergy.png
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  • treesclimbertreesclimber Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,161 Arc User
    edited June 2017


    That said, I agree with what people are saying that it's weird for 100 points of AP to counter 400 points of Defense. In general, it's a game design principle that answers need to be stronger than threats (because a threat without an answer is still good, but an answer with no threat is useless -- so the answer needs a buff to make up for that fundamental asymmetry). But four times better? My feeling is something like 200 AP = 1% increase to Resistance Ignored would make more sense (or maybe 300, but I'd start out at 200). Also, it's a bit too easy to get AP right now in PvE, compared to how much you actually need, and rather than make everyone's gear give less, I think it's better to make people need more! However, I also agree with those who think it's too big a change to make right now. For the Chult release, I don't want to do anything so drastic, but in a future release I'd be willing to consider going to 200 AP = 1% RI, with a more-or-less corresponding reduction in monster resistances (these are templated, so a rework isn't as terrifying as it might sound). We'll be thinking about that some more on our end.

    @rgutscheradev but the answer to your threat is Hit points, there is absolutely no point in building defense unless you made arm pen 500:1, HP will always take advantage, there is times Life steal will break the HP value, and ofc many, many powers are HP player based, wheel of the element, insignia, wilds medicin, unstopable recovery, ferocious reaction, borrowed time etc in fact if i want to heal myself better it's a better if i build HP instead incoming healing, not to mention a lot of guilds don't have access to HP boon.
    hp boon was always a good stat for pve too i dont get that: a lot guilds dont have access.
    Mainly because it's cheapest to get the power boon by going arm pen/defense route.
    Post edited by treesclimber on

  • ltgamesttv#0999 ltgamesttv Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,438 Arc User
    edited June 2017
    @rgutscheradev Let me first thank you, and the dev team, and the community manager/mods. I feel like we've finally been heard! This upcoming mod looks to be the best yet, with all the changes to PVP and the fresh look of PVE this mod has a lot to offer.

    That said, while I'm for adding tenacity to character sheet I feel like adjusting just one aspect of tenacity is like removing a fire wall to see what will happen? My guess is flaming :tongue: . So long story short we all know tenacity needs a rework, we also know it needs to be character bound. Deciding to do away with armor pen only accomplished one productive possibility... Go ahead and put it on character sheet.

    It's already off gear, just sneak on over and put a 67% or 75% base armpen tenacity on character sheet for everyone. If you're feeling really froggy you could add the other tenacity stats as well, then just sneak some extra stats onto our current gear :tongue:

    Partial kidding aside, the most likely scenario is tenacity will have to be addressed at a later point. This no armor pen resist is instant death for certain classes (read GWF - rip). Any tanky classes will have their primary defensive stats/abilities made useless (read death to Pally!). Except that ruddy GF with his unmitigated shield! DC would be even more dependent on their abilities to heal themselves (ikr? DC's XD)

    I'll state a few things I'd like to see. They likely mirror some of the more sage voices in this post.

    Defense needs to work: If DR is made useless so are a ton of class features and abilies, it's extraordinarily easy to come up with 80% RI or more. A possible solution to armpen resist: Hardcap PVP armpen, only for PVP. Thus tanky characters remain tanky if they're above the RI % hardcap. Then it makes sense to stack defense again. THus a GWF who stacks defense for more power may be very tanky in both PVE and PVP (however due to low HP pools may still fall prey to SE). This allows for PVE players to play PVP without having to invest in all new enchants/artifacts. If you hardcap armpen in PVP then you have the ability to do away with arm pen tenacity. Findng right % would be trickiest but we could do some testing and find out :)

    I have some other items I'd like to share for review but I don't want to detract from this particular post.
    I think the common thread here amongst most experienced posters is: THIS CHANGE SHOULD NOT GO LIVE without attenuation/concurrent changes.
    Post edited by ltgamesttv#0999 on
    On ambush rings: "How would you like PVE if all the mobs were invisible?"

    imgur pics don't work


  • ltgamesttv#0999 ltgamesttv Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,438 Arc User

    IF we deal more damage in module 12 in pvp that means it counters the insane self healing.

    Except it increases the self heals through lifesteal.
    On ambush rings: "How would you like PVE if all the mobs were invisible?"

    imgur pics don't work


  • beckylunaticbeckylunatic Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 14,231 Arc User
    edited June 2017


    That said, I agree with what people are saying that it's weird for 100 points of AP to counter 400 points of Defense. In general, it's a game design principle that answers need to be stronger than threats (because a threat without an answer is still good, but an answer with no threat is useless -- so the answer needs a buff to make up for that fundamental asymmetry). But four times better? My feeling is something like 200 AP = 1% increase to Resistance Ignored would make more sense (or maybe 300, but I'd start out at 200). Also, it's a bit too easy to get AP right now in PvE, compared to how much you actually need, and rather than make everyone's gear give less, I think it's better to make people need more! However, I also agree with those who think it's too big a change to make right now. For the Chult release, I don't want to do anything so drastic, but in a future release I'd be willing to consider going to 200 AP = 1% RI, with a more-or-less corresponding reduction in monster resistances (these are templated, so a rework isn't as terrifying as it might sound). We'll be thinking about that some more on our end.

    @rgutscheradev but the answer to your threat is Hit points, there is absolutely no point in building defense unless you made arm pen 500:1, HP will always take advantage, there is times Life steal will break the HP value, and ofc many, many powers are HP player based, wheel of the element, insignia, wilds medicin, unstopable recovery, ferocious reaction, borrowed time etc in fact if i want to heal myself better it's a better if i build HP instead incoming healing, not to mention a lot of guilds don't have access to HP boon.
    hp boon was always a good stat for pve too i dont get that: a lot guilds dont have access.
    It's still a long way off, but I'm likely to preferentially weight it over the lifesteal boon. (Can't skip Explorer; too many guildies interested in it.)
    Guild Leader - The Lords of Light

    Neverwinter Census 2017

    All posts pending disapproval by Cecilia
  • ltgamesttv#0999 ltgamesttv Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,438 Arc User


    That said, I agree with what people are saying that it's weird for 100 points of AP to counter 400 points of Defense. In general, it's a game design principle that answers need to be stronger than threats (because a threat without an answer is still good, but an answer with no threat is useless -- so the answer needs a buff to make up for that fundamental asymmetry). But four times better? My feeling is something like 200 AP = 1% increase to Resistance Ignored would make more sense (or maybe 300, but I'd start out at 200). Also, it's a bit too easy to get AP right now in PvE, compared to how much you actually need, and rather than make everyone's gear give less, I think it's better to make people need more! However, I also agree with those who think it's too big a change to make right now. For the Chult release, I don't want to do anything so drastic, but in a future release I'd be willing to consider going to 200 AP = 1% RI, with a more-or-less corresponding reduction in monster resistances (these are templated, so a rework isn't as terrifying as it might sound). We'll be thinking about that some more on our end.

    @rgutscheradev but the answer to your threat is Hit points, there is absolutely no point in building defense unless you made arm pen 500:1, HP will always take advantage, there is times Life steal will break the HP value, and ofc many, many powers are HP player based, wheel of the element, insignia, wilds medicin, unstopable recovery, ferocious reaction, borrowed time etc in fact if i want to heal myself better it's a better if i build HP instead incoming healing, not to mention a lot of guilds don't have access to HP boon.
    hp boon was always a good stat for pve too i dont get that: a lot guilds dont have access.
    It's still a long way off, but I'm likely to preferentially weight it over the lifesteal boon. (Can't skip Explorer; too many guildies interested in it.)
    Perhaps another boon plot is in order?
    On ambush rings: "How would you like PVE if all the mobs were invisible?"

    imgur pics don't work


  • beckylunaticbeckylunatic Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 14,231 Arc User
    edited June 2017
    I'm by no means opposed to the idea. It's mostly just logistics for people to switch guilds temporarily during a profession event anyway, if they're so inclined. I prefer to not make my guildies do that, and also to not be as unavailable myself as being in a different guild makes me if I'm node farming.
    Guild Leader - The Lords of Light

    Neverwinter Census 2017

    All posts pending disapproval by Cecilia
  • ayrouxayroux Member Posts: 4,271 Arc User

    @rgutscheradev Let me first thank you, and the dev team, and the community manager/mods. I feel like we've finally been heard! This upcoming mod looks to be the best yet, with all the changes to PVP and the fresh look of PVE this mod has a lot to offer.

    That said, while I'm for adding tenacity to character sheet I feel like adjusting just one aspect of tenacity is like removing a fire wall to see what will happen? My guess is flaming :tongue: . So long story short we all know tenacity needs a rework, we also know it needs to be character bound. Deciding to do away with armor pen only accomplished one productive possibility... Go ahead and put it on character sheet.

    It's already off gear, just sneak on over and put a 67% or 75% base armpen tenacity on character sheet for everyone. If you're feeling really froggy you could add the other tenacity stats as well, then just sneak some extra stats onto our current gear :tongue:

    Partial kidding aside, the most likely scenario is tenacity will have to be addressed at a later point. This no armor pen resist is instant death for certain classes (read GWF - rip). Any tanky classes will have their primary defensive stats/abilities made useless (read death to Pally!). Except that ruddy GF with his unmitigated shield! DC would be even more dependent on their abilities to heal themselves (ikr? DC's XD)

    I'll state a few things I'd like to see. They likely mirror some of the more sage voices in this post.

    Defense needs to work: If DR is made useless so are a ton of class features and abilies, it's extraordinarily easy to come up with 80% RI or more. A possible solution to armpen resist: Hardcap PVP armpen, only for PVP. Thus tanky characters remain tanky if they're above the RI % hardcap. Then it makes sense to stack defense again. THus a GWF who stacks defense for more power may be very tanky in both PVE and PVP (however due to low HP pools may still fall prey to SE). This allows for PVE players to play PVP without having to invest in all new enchants/artifacts. If you hardcap armpen in PVP then you have the ability to do away with arm pen tenacity. Findng right % would be trickiest but we could do some testing and find out :)

    I have some other items I'd like to share for review but I don't want to detract from this particular post.
    I think the common thread here amongst most experienced posters is: THIS CHANGE SHOULD NOT GO LIVE without attenuation/concurrent changes.

    * starts reading. Thinks to self "wow this guy makes so much sense and is so logical! Who posted this? Oh, Tolkeinbuff, no wonder why - you always use logic" . You are one of the most knowledgeable players in the game IMO playing nearly every class, gearing nearly every class...

    The key points here are:

    - tenacity will have to be addressed at a later point. This no armor pen resist is instant death for certain classes (read GWF - rip). Any tanky classes will have their primary defensive stats/abilities made useless
    - Defense needs to work: If DR is made useless so are a ton of class features and abilies
    - THIS CHANGE SHOULD NOT GO LIVE without attenuation/concurrent changes.

    Your hardcap idea is interesting. I was thinking a similar thing with regards to PVP but I dont know what "control" they have to make PVP different than PVE (like no "cap" for PVE but a "cap" of like 50% for PVP).

    Short of that, I like your idea - move ARP Resistance to character sheet (FOR NOW) and then when they can actually look to adjust Armor Pen so it isnt SO easy to get (100:1) then they can remove/reduce armor pen from character sheet altogether... but doing 1 (removing arp resist) without the other (making ARP more like 200:1% or 300:1%) completely breaks the game in PVP.
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