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Official Feedback Thread: M12 Armor Pen Changes and PvP

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  • nezdin#5514 nezdin Member Posts: 259 Arc User
    edited June 2017
    Support Classes: Please think about what role you want support classes to play in PvP. Some classes exist or are built with only team utility in mind and are incapable of killing anything. Substantial reductions in control strength or survivability of support classes (due to increased damage of DPS-classes which support classes will not benefit from) need to be taken into consideration. On the one hand it would be way simpler to make the "new PvP era" about "kill or be killed". On the other hand, the existing richness of the class and tree system you have built (which is a big plus for this game imo) makes the dichotomy "kill or be killed" impossible; unless you want to make support classes useless for PvP.

    The existing categorisation of classes is not useful enough to make meaningful distinctions between DPS and support classes:

    -An Oppressor CW is not cut from the same cloth as Thaumaturges or Renegades.
    -A Faithful DC is not cut from the same cloth as a Righteous DC.
    -A Trapper HR is not cut from the same cloth as a combat HR.
    -A Temptation SW is not cut from the same cloth as a Fury SW.
    -Similar distinction for other classes...

    The above should all be treated as separate classes: the suggested changes will impact them in very different ways. Any true support class should not be able to inflict massive amounts of damage, but should in exchange be tanky in some form, either via armour or some form of control that is useful. The difficult part is reaching the right balance in control, tankiness and team utility without being game-breaking; but is nonetheless very important for all support classes.



    Nezdin (DC)
    Aelan Icebleed (CW)
  • mamalion1234mamalion1234 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 3,404 Arc User
    edited June 2017
    Until module 6 i remember to have to care about classes attacks rather what their items do.
    AFTER mod 9 until now we have seen classes to lose their roles because:
    YOU introduced 2 legendary mounts with prone effects lion-whirlwind. 1 artifact with push effect ignoring cc immunity- 1 artifact with rooting effect- mounts with fear effect stun and debuff 10% defence? . question about this mount the fear does make "players flee"?

    so WHY after mod 7 with legendary mounts i can prone? And if i have already a prone what am i a broken class?
    example 1 lion-savage- ibs.
    example 2 lion-iceknife-disintegrate.
    example 3 :lion-bull charge-griffon wrath
    or
    example 4 : rod imperial restrain root + lion prone+ bull charge prone+ griffon wrath.

    those examples shows we dont have item balance and all classes can do any role.
  • jonkocajonkoca Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 2,586 Arc User
    edited June 2017
    armadeonx said:

    jonkoca said:

    Question, anyone fought a stunbot crit-build trapper HR under the new conditions..? And does their damage now outpace self-heals..?

    If so, cc in pvp has definitely got to be taken a look at before all this goes live. I'm an HR, I could make a stunbot loadout in 5 minutes that, if trapper damage actually is now a threat... Well, gg everyone, don't even come down from spawn.

    I believe the HR perma-stun comes from the Class Feature 'Crushing Roots' and is actually a continuous series of micro-stuns. This power has no pvp-specific definition meaning HRs are able to keep you stunned until you're dead due to the insta-cooldown ability from the feat Swiftness Of The Fox.

    To equalise the class they can either put in a pvp definition for Crushing Roots or introduce a short stun immunity for all players after say 3 consecutive stuns.
    It's a mix of crushing roots, which enables 3 or 4 stuns per rotation, for 3 rotations until hindering runs out of charges, and the feat trappers cunning which stuns 25% of the time on a crit hit. It's the latter that fills in the gaps, providing near continuous stuns. They are micro interrupts, and roots, disabling both actions and movement. Oghmas is about the only reliable way out.


    On the whole though, there is simply far too much cc in PvP. Often I storm onto mid, straight into a smokebomb. Then I get hoisted into the air, blown across the map, and iceknife proned by a cw. Then along comes the ever friendly GF, who proceeds to chain prone me to oblivion. If I had a dollar etc.

    If I'm, by some miracle, not dead, the TR comes up, and CBs me into a vegetable.

    Actually, forget what I said, let it go live for a week so I can wreak bloody revenge on all the CWs, Gfs and TRs who've ever cc'd me. Lol.
    No idea what my toon is now.
  • sh00termcl0vinsh00termcl0vin Member Posts: 287 Arc User
    edited June 2017
    I feel like there is some caution needed with arp changes. I applaud simplifying the way PvP gear works and the possible removal of tenacity, but I feel like classes that traditionally don't use arp will benefit the most from this, mainly combat HRs and sabo trs, by stacking a minimal amount of arp and double dipping in damage. If you are going this route please consider an overhaul of piercing damage as well by making it less potent in PvP.

    Also I agree control effects definately need a tone down in PvP in the form of some sort of diminishing returns. Most other MMOs have this already.

    For example (not to pick on TRs, but they are a definitely a major offender) having a player that was stunned by a smoke bomb not be able to be stunned again for 6 seconds etc. This will prevent stacking cc classes in a game to guarantee a win (like the friendly neighborhood double courage break tr team). The same can apply to all control powers in general in pvp. Just my 2 cents.
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  • nickjdowenickjdowe Member Posts: 158 Arc User
    If I could make a suggestion in regards to where these changes leave the GWF without turning this thread into a GWF rework thread, I'd like to see a change to Unstoppable so it works independent of your DR. A second layer of Resist much like the GF shield. Except instead of 80% we keep the resist at its core 35% DR. We could extend this 35% to all aspects of Resistance like ALL CC not just some and Piercing Damage. This seems like a better trade off then giving yet another class an immunity frame through a Dodge mechanic. It also means that when Unstoppable is down we are just as easy to kill as always but when it's up we can get some work in. As it is now even in unstoppable we are just an easy target for any class. It should mimic the abilities of the physical shield a GF has but a shield of Will power at half the effectiveness. 80% GF shield / 40% GWF unstoppable. While we are at it, make damage dealt while unstoppable 40% piercing damage. Given how short the duration of Unstoppable is I'd say this is a decent trade off. If I have to chase you around and take a beating in the process while you can dodge and be immune to my damage than at least while I'm unstoppable allow 40% of it to be irresistible damage for those 8 seconds before I turn back into a pin cushion.

    Just a thought. I could be way off the mark.
  • plaviaplavia Member Posts: 540 Arc User
    thanks for the update.

    how the overall damage of classes that depend on ArP will change? (not HR/TR)
    today its between 10% to 100%+ (tenacity reduce half and no cap for over ArP)
    as far as i understand it will be 20% to 100% without tenacity, is it true?
    if yes than classes with damage based ArP will do more against stronger opponent.

    what will be in between? what is the formule?
    cleric with exaltation, astral shield and decent armor reach 100% damage resistence, when facing 80% ArP opponent what damage will I get?

    today psion armor and Valhalla set are nice to PVP. new armor will be in that direction?
    or it will be speed, control resist, deflect etc?
    what stat the new PVP armor set have? the tradebar still offer PVP sets?

  • jaime4312#3760 jaime4312 Member Posts: 844 Arc User
    edited June 2017
    @nickjdowe I can see why you'd suggest that unstoppable rework, however giving piercing damage to GWF doesn't sound right, think about it, much like GWF is now if those changes go live, classes with no dodge or immunity frames would just be better off putting the keyboard/controller away as they'd have little to no chance fight back. Piercing IBS? no thank you. As you may noticed, most people are against piercing damage, it is just blatlantly and hilariously overpowered though it has been kept the way it is as it is TR's and combat HR's only way to deal major damage.

    Since I got to know about arp resist I thought about more or less the same @jonkoca did, the arp resist removal may most likely become a significant dps boost for trapper HR so for certain classes and builds if caught by one you're toasted, virtually no chance to survive.

    What @xsayajinx1 stated should be kept in mind, heavy geared melee classes do need higher base tenaticy than light armoured and ranged ones otherwise there will be yet more balance issues in pvp.

    The proposed changes are an attempt to take a step on the right direction but as they flat out massively nerf the survability of certain classes (like GWF) should be delayed so they can be tweaked and be released in an acceptable state and perhaps as part of a set of more substantial changes to pvp.
    Post edited by jaime4312#3760 on
  • nickjdowenickjdowe Member Posts: 158 Arc User
    edited June 2017
    @jaime4312#3760 I agree with that statement and those of others. My suggestion about the piercing damage aspect was that only a percentage of our damage during that time frame be irresistible damage. As it is currently all of our damage can be resisted or mitigated. The bulk of our dps comes from stacks of Destroyer which in PvP is hard to do as 90% of all fights between all classes is burst damage. IBS is not a 1 hit kill unless you have stacks and combat advantage on a squishy opponent. Also we have no CC, I have no way to pin you in place to IBS strike you. Yes it's our highest damage encounter but a lot of things need to line up for that 1 attack to have any real effect on a target. I too would love to see piercing removed from the game but if it looks like they won't then it needs to be reduced or given to GWF for the 8 seconds that unstoppable is up. Not 100% of course, but at least a portion of our damage be irresistible during that time frame. Right now we just have way too much working against us.
  • ayrouxayroux Member Posts: 4,271 Arc User
    edited June 2017
    <blockquote class="Quote" rel="nickjdowe">If I could make a suggestion in regards to where these changes leave the GWF without turning this thread into a GWF rework thread, I'd like to see a change to Unstoppable so it works independent of your DR. A second layer of Resist much like the GF shield. Except instead of 80% we keep the resist at its core 35% DR. We could extend this 35% to all aspects of Resistance like ALL CC not just some and Piercing Damage. This seems like a better trade off then giving yet another class an immunity frame through a Dodge mechanic. It also means that when Unstoppable is down we are just as easy to kill as always but when it's up we can get some work in. As it is now even in unstoppable we are just an easy target for any class. It should mimic the abilities of the physical shield a GF has but a shield of Will power at half the effectiveness. 80% GF shield / 40% GWF unstoppable. While we are at it, make damage dealt while unstoppable 40% piercing damage. Given how short the duration of Unstoppable is I'd say this is a decent trade off. If I have to chase you around and take a beating in the process while you can dodge and be immune to my damage than at least while I'm unstoppable allow 40% of it to be irresistible damage for those 8 seconds before I turn back into a pin cushion.

    Just a thought. I could be way off the mark.</blockquote>

    No, please no. I get the idea and I can see how a knee jerk reaction would be to do this. Frankly, this is the opposite direction the game should go. We need LESS piercing stuff. LESS DR on it's own layer... if it were up to me I'd completely remove all piercing damage AND all DR that's on it's "own layer" like GF block and CW shield.

    The issue in PVP is armor pen scaling at 100:1. This (imo) is very poor overall. It should be 400:1. I don't understand the 100:1 thing, even for pve....

    It's not like arp is hard to get even. Mount gives 4k, boon gives 8k and all the other boons + gear..
    Can easily have plenty of ARP, even for PVE.

    However if it's going to go in at 100:1 then.I don't see how you can not have ARP resist... it's too easy to moot all DR when a stat (defense) is 400:1 but it's counter stat is 100:1?...

    Don't get me wrong, I love the idea of removing all tenacity on all gear, give everyone a pvp buff that provides tenacity and then you merely need to fine tune the values.

    Arp Resist at 75% (to make arp 400:1)
    Damage resist at 50%
    Crit resist at 30%
    Control resist at 30-40%.

    This would be a huge QOL increase.
    Post edited by ayroux on
  • josiahiyonjosiahiyon Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 396 Arc User

    That won't work. We will need 75+ RI for the new maps. It would be a nerf to all classes in PVE to change the Armpen stat curve like that. Not good at all.

    I'm pretty sure @ayroux agrees. Can't simply change arpen to 400:1 without major pve changes, and that would be complicated. That's why he suggested leaving the Arpen Tenacity Resistance at 75%. Makes sense to me.

    My proposal:
    • Fixed pvp tenacity of 50% base suppression / 20% crit suppression / 75% arpen suppression / 45% cc suppression. For all, not on gear.
    • Have tenacity apply to piercing damage
    • Have tenacity apply to all cc (if it doesn't already)
    • Remove 'second layer' defenses like gf shield and cw shield, and instead make these be DR buffs
    • Keep the arpen bug fix -- nice change, great improvement for lower geared players and low dr builds
    • Diminishing returns on CC
    Pvpbysynergy.png
    Iyon the Dark
  • ayrouxayroux Member Posts: 4,271 Arc User
    > @josiahiyon said:
    > That won't work. We will need 75+ RI for the new maps. It would be a nerf to all classes in PVE to change the Armpen stat curve like that. Not good at all.
    >
    > I'm pretty sure @ayroux agrees. Can't simply change arpen to 400:1 without major pve changes, and that would be complicated. That's why he suggested leaving the Arpen Tenacity Resistance at 75%. Makes sense to me.
    >
    > My proposal:
    > * Fixed pvp tenacity of 50% base suppression / 20% crit suppression / 75% arpen suppression / 45% cc suppression. For all, not on gear.
    >
    > * Have tenacity apply to piercing damage
    >
    > * Have tenacity apply to all cc (if it doesn't already)
    >
    > * Remove 'second layer' defenses like gf shield and cw shield, and instead make these be DR buffs
    >
    > * Keep the arpen bug fix -- nice change, great improvement for lower geared players and low dr builds
    >
    > * Diminishing returns on CC





    This. 100%. And yes, I agree they can't change for PVE. Well, not without flame although frankly 75% RI still wouldn't be hard even at 400:1.... if it were linear. Many classes can get RI ability score. Between all the sources of arp.... anyways not the point.

    The point is you can't have a stat at 400:1 and it's counter at 100:1. So you can't remove arp resist. Either that, or you institute a different diminishing return for pvp only (new stat curve) that kicks in way earlier.

    But I agree with Josiah, those values would be a great start along with piercing removal and DR change to CW and GF
  • gankdalf#8991 gankdalf Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 930 Arc User
    edited June 2017

    That won't work. We will need 75+ RI for the new maps. It would be a nerf to all classes in PVE to change the Armpen stat curve like that. Not good at all.

    I'm pretty sure @ayroux agrees. Can't simply change arpen to 400:1 without major pve changes, and that would be complicated. That's why he suggested leaving the Arpen Tenacity Resistance at 75%. Makes sense to me.

    My proposal:
    • Fixed pvp tenacity of 50% base suppression / 20% crit suppression / 75% arpen suppression / 45% cc suppression. For all, not on gear.
    • Have tenacity apply to piercing damage
    • Have tenacity apply to all cc (if it doesn't already)
    • Remove 'second layer' defenses like gf shield and cw shield, and instead make these be DR buffs
    • Keep the arpen bug fix -- nice change, great improvement for lower geared players and low dr builds
    • Diminishing returns on CC
    If there is anyone in here that I trust with numbers and understanding of how the game and stats works in depth, its josiahiyon and ayroux. Best bet would be to try what they are suggesting. They are pretty much the same as fabricant, but for PvP. josiahiyon can talk numbers until you fall a sleep sitting up but he knows his stuff.

    There are other posters here that has no clue and it would be really bad to listen to them. Hopefully devs can figure that out based on whats written.
    Post edited by gankdalf#8991 on

    ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ ▇ █ Gankdalf The Icehole █ ▇ ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁

  • ase#2329 ase Member Posts: 61 Arc User
    Well...
    I am not sure i am getting the thing here.
    Does that mean that, as a "Full Def" Pally, I'll go from unkillable not able to kill to killable not able to kill ?
    I mean my role is usually to get enemies busy on a node trying to kill me, so my teammates can get the other nodes.
    I know that BiS pallies can do some good dmg but that is not my case right now. Even if I have Prestige gear and Brigandine.
    And, to be honest, I don't understand, after reading three times this thread, why we, defensive classes, will have a harder time in pvp in mod12.
    Can someone explain that to me, please ?
  • emilemoemilemo Member Posts: 1,718 Arc User
    edited June 2017

    We’re making some changes to Armor Pen with the Chult release (see https://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter#/discussion/1231982/official-feedback-thread-m12-armor-pen-and-damage-vulnerability-debuff-changes). I wanted to talk about the PvP implications separately.

    In PvP, there are two significant changes riding along with the Armor Pen changes, and also some implications for where PvP is headed that I’d love feedback on.

    What’s happening right now:
    1) A fix to a bug where you could penetrate more Armor than another player had, and thus do bonus damage to them (more than 100%). This bug only happened in PvP.
    2) The PvP-only stat of Armor Pen Resist has been removed.

    I know #2 might seem a bit of a shock at first, so let me explain. There are three main reasons for getting rid of it:
    * With the bug fixed, AP is much less powerful. So it makes sense to reduce AP Resist to counteract that. What should AP Resist be lowered to? The simplest value, and thus the one to try first, is zero.
    * Long run, we’d like to get rid of the Tenacity system. Getting rid of AP Resist is a first step, and now is a good time.
    * It’s kind of a stupid stat. The Defense stat (armor) is damage resist. Armor penetration is damage resist resist. So AP Resist is really damage resist resist resist. It’s just not right.

    What will the net effect of these changes be? Well, AP will be worse against weakly armored targets (no overpenetration ). It might be better against heavily armored targets. But if lightly armored characters now survive better in PvP, and heavily armored ones are a bit less tough, that’s probably a good thing for PvP overall.

    What about Tenacity? Lots of players have been complaining about it, and (I feel) with good reason. It definitely creates barriers to entry in PvP. As people stack more and more of it, it’s hard to maintain the right combat pacing (in terms of how long it takes to defeat someone). We’d like to replace the Tenacity system with a global buff that players get in PvP, but not based on gear -- everyone in PvP would just flat-out get (say) 40% Damage Resistance, 40% Critical Strike Resistance, and 40% Control Resistance. Those numbers, though, are just based on what Tenacity gives right now to an average well-geared player in PvP. Should they be higher? Lower? Some higher and some lower? I’d love some feedback from the PvP community on this topic.

    Of course, if we remove Tenacity, the gear that had it will get stats to make up for it. The goal would be that it’s gear that is of an appropriate power level for its item level.

    How You Can Help
    Don’t forget that with the new PvP Private Queues, it’s much easier to test PvP now! Here are some things to look for:
    * There should no longer be “bonus damage” (damage past 100%) coming from Armor Pen.
    * How is Armor Pen looking in PvP? The fixes won’t be enough to put tanks and dps classes in perfect PvP balance, but do they at least move things in the right direction rather than the wrong direction?
    * How do people feel about removing Tenacity entirely? What do people feel about the proposed numbers for the global PvP buff?

    I know that these changes just scratch the surface of what’s needed in PvP. I’m happy to hear further suggestions (I’ve been looking at some of the other PvP suggestion threads), but definitely in this thread give me feedback on the things mentioned above -- they’re the things that we can bugfix and tweak for the upcoming Chult release!

    I like these changes. Will prodive feedback if I get to test them, however I can say right now that things like piercing damage will need to be looked at if these changes come to live. Piercing is supposedly used now to help strikers strike. Well if armor becomes easier to penetrate via the Arm Pen stat than the combat ranger and the rogue should get an adjustment as well. Dealing true damage on top of already penetrating most if not all of the armor of the target would seem a bit much.
    Row, row, row your boat, Gently down the stream.
    Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, Life is but a dream.
  • nezdin#5514 nezdin Member Posts: 259 Arc User
    ase#2329 said:

    Well...
    I am not sure i am getting the thing here.
    Does that mean that, as a "Full Def" Pally, I'll go from unkillable not able to kill to killable not able to kill ?
    I mean my role is usually to get enemies busy on a node trying to kill me, so my teammates can get the other nodes.
    I know that BiS pallies can do some good dmg but that is not my case right now. Even if I have Prestige gear and Brigandine.
    And, to be honest, I don't understand, after reading three times this thread, why we, defensive classes, will have a harder time in pvp in mod12.
    Can someone explain that to me, please ?

    That is why "support" classes need to be looked into in light of these changes as I mention above. I also wonder about the synergy between
    (1) taking our armor pen resist + (2) increased damage from crits + (3) decreasing returns to control. All these changes make supports more vulnerable with nothing gained for them.
    Nezdin (DC)
    Aelan Icebleed (CW)
  • josiahiyonjosiahiyon Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 396 Arc User
    edited June 2017
    Here's a little EHP chart for those who want to see what the changes on PTR do to the effective Health of each class. Nothing that hasn't already been said. However, the magnitude and thus the class balance change of simply turning off arpen resist and making the bug change is substantial. GWF, DC, and OP lose half of their effective HP, while most other classes gain 15%+ more effective HP.

    Also note that, with the ptr changes, it no longer makes sense to stack arpen much above 100%, which hurts classes that rely more on stacking arpen for their damage. And yes, as Nezdin says, it's not just GWFs. Support classes that use DR (Dc, OP) are also significantly hurt by this change.


    Post edited by josiahiyon on
    Pvpbysynergy.png
    Iyon the Dark
  • trentbail21trentbail21 Member Posts: 433 Arc User
    edited June 2017
    I don't care what they do as long as they make gwfs, sws and pallies more viable in serious pre-mades. If you can do that ARC you will be a champion because we have been excluded from serious pvp for like 5 mods on Xbox.

    I hope you don't break pvp more then it already is ARC!

    @xsayajinx1
    If they implement your sprint idea.. which isn't a bad one then they definitely need to give us a bigger sprint pool so we can us it more. That or I would go for an 8 second battlefury again lol.

    Find me in game if you want and send me a domination/ gaunt invite. If you are good and im not busy ill play with you. Im not an elitist ill play with almost anyone.
  • icyphishicyphish Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,255 Arc User
    edited June 2017
    I like @xsayajinx1 's idea of implementing a different layer of DR for Unstoppable and Sprint, however what I fear is, that still doesn't change the fact that GWF will remain one of the easiest target to be one rotated.

    Unstoppable can only be casted after we take enough damage and standing still, if we get proned, then we will probably be one of the easiest targets to be one rotated, and that doesn't sound right for a off-tank class to me.

    Sprint is similar, there is about a 0.5 delay from casting to actually sprinting, which means GWF still wont be able to avoid a lot of instant burst attacks, such as Bull Charge.

    As GWF is a off-tank / DPS class, I think Dev should really work out a way to make GWF more in-line with their design. (such as granting GWF more DR that applies at a different layer from feats or getting more %HP from Feats...etc) then GWF could be more in-line with their designated role.

    However I do think those two are great ideas and should really be considered while doing GWF rework. Like said by many of the people above (probably like 50% of the posts?) GWF is already a disadvantaged class in serious premade, GWFs can often get one rotated by GFs, one shotted by TR (or become unable to move+defend against perm CB), or just pretty hopeless against combat HRs, not enough DPS to kill OP/SW and neither DC, so unless there is a DPS partner, its really difficult for GWF to kill anything on their own, while all TR/GF/HR are capable of killing just about everyone and survive better than GWF.

    I really think every class should excel in PvP in different ways, so if by implementing the idea @xsayajinx1 suggested above, then that would at least make GWF more tanky and can truthfully become more of a off-tank class in PvP.

    PS: I think it would be nice if Sprint can benefit the same way SW's shadow walk works, granting 100% immunity in the first second, then decrease by 20% every second...etc
    icydrake%20avatar2_zpsg7rp0xti.jpg

    Author of GWF Speed Demon PvP Build (Mod 11) <- Click to reveal the Speedy Beast! >:)
  • treesclimbertreesclimber Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,161 Arc User

    Here's a little EHP chart for those who want to see what the changes on PTR do to the effective Health of each class. Nothing that hasn't already been said. However, the magnitude and thus the class balance change of simply turning off arpen resist and making the bug change is substantial. GWF, DC, and OP lose half of their effective HP, while most other classes gain 15%+ more effective HP.

    Also note that, with the ptr changes, it no longer makes sense to stack arpen much above 100%, which hurts classes that rely more on stacking arpen for their damage. And yes, as Nezdin says, it's not just GWFs. Support classes that use DR (Dc, OP) are also significantly hurt by this change.


    I agree it's not about GWF only, every class sustaining in DR is affected. That chart seems very vague, could you explain it a bit further?

  • josiahiyonjosiahiyon Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 396 Arc User
    edited June 2017
    I think everyone can agree that pvp GWF is underpowered on live, and even moreso on ptr.

    If the goal of the tenacity review is to reduce 'gear gap', then all efforts should be made to limit the class balance disruption as part of this rework. Removing arpen suppression without making arpen 400:1 in pvp introduces massive class balance disruption, and thus it should be reconsidered.

    Class balance topics, such as gwf rework, should also be considered. But only after correctly reducing tenacity gear gap without worsening the class balance issues.
    Pvpbysynergy.png
    Iyon the Dark
  • josiahiyonjosiahiyon Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 396 Arc User
    edited June 2017

    Here's a little EHP chart for those who want to see what the changes on PTR do to the effective Health of each class. Nothing that hasn't already been said. However, the magnitude and thus the class balance change of simply turning off arpen resist and making the bug change is substantial. GWF, DC, and OP lose half of their effective HP, while most other classes gain 15%+ more effective HP.

    Also note that, with the ptr changes, it no longer makes sense to stack arpen much above 100%, which hurts classes that rely more on stacking arpen for their damage. And yes, as Nezdin says, it's not just GWFs. Support classes that use DR (Dc, OP) are also significantly hurt by this change.


    I agree it's not about GWF only, every class sustaining in DR is affected. That chart seems very vague, could you explain it a bit further?
    Sure.
    Example 1: -50% means Effective Hit Points on ptr is half of what it is on live. Cuts HP in half.
    Example 2: +25% means Effective Hit Points on ptr is 25% higher than what is on live

    The far left column represents the Resistance Ignored of the person hitting.

    Example 3: Against a person with 90% Resistance Ignored, a DC on the ptr has half of the effective hit points as the DC has on live (5th value down the dc far-right column).

    Does this help?
    Pvpbysynergy.png
    Iyon the Dark
  • abelcoeurdacierabelcoeurdacier Member Posts: 36 Arc User
    The problem is that you think you can manage classes that can choose 6 ways of specialization.

    If the trinity tank dps healer works as well it is not for nothing, there are people who have asked the same kind of question long before us.

    Doing balanced pvp is not easy because of the players' evil liver and the balancing of powers and equipment.

    I think the first thing is not to ask the opinion of the players.

    Instead, we must engage people who are neutral with regard to the game to test the pvp internally.

    Then you have to set some guidelines.

    The tank class must access the survival elements but not be able to use the power elements.

    The dps class must not in any case be able to access the drain of life or then on a very specific and unique competence, or anything else that grants it resistance, its defense is the attack.

    The class of healer must be able to access the support elements but not the elements of resistance, its defense must be healing and its attack the leak or some controls.

    Controls, as we talk about them, must be mono target and rarely in zone and they must not stay in time.
    Immunity should be introduced by type of control in order to deceive players to make choices.

    The player x undergoes a root control of the player y, he triggers an immunity of 5 minutes to this type of control against all players.
    Nothing prevents the players from taking different type of control but after a while it will have to fight really.

    It is inadmissible to be able to win a fight just by spamming an area control that stays in play several seconds in a pvp game.

    Translated with google, vive la france!
  • darthtzarrdarthtzarr Member Posts: 1,003 Arc User

    I think the first thing is not to ask the opinion of the players.

    Instead, we must engage people who are neutral with regard to the game to test the pvp internally.

    An external testing team would not be without bias. They would be biased by what they could see in their limited internal testing environment. If you stick some of the best pvpers on the server in the same room with the test team, the pvpers would likely shake the test team's understanding of the game on a foundational level.

    If you stuck a brand new test team into the Neverwinter pvp environment, and gave them access to all of the items and tools in the game, it would likely take them months to come to the same optimizations that players already have. Without optimization, they would be biased by their own lack of knowledge.

    Signature [WIP] - tyvm John

  • julianalz55julianalz55 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 89 Arc User

    I strongly disagree with @ayroux and @josiahiyon and even more with @ejziponken.



    @rgutscheradev

    Armpen Resistance removal was a good first step and should be kept. This way crits get only mitigated twice by damage resistance and crit resistance.

    The outcome: even 75% base crit severity hits deal now more damage than a non-crit hit.

    Crit resistance can be tweaked down a bit, but NOT TOO MUCH please, there are classes that have an easier time stacking crit than others. (Class balance)

    The trickster rogue has even free 100% crit in stealth.



    Removing DR from seperate layers (like GF & CW shield) is the next suggestions of above mentioned players that will effectively kill two more classes for PvP.





    The idea to balance with little effort but best impact is to give GWF unstoppable DR on a seperate layer. Same to SW & GWF sprint: put the gained DR through shift ability on a seperate layer and keep armpen resistance removed. This will ensure the best class balance we can possibly get right now. You will get rewarded tankiness for skillful playstyle with your shift button and punished with squishiness for not using shift.



    It does also remove the necessity to implement a piercing damage Tenacity stat. As now classes are able to dodge piercing damage or mitigate it by shift/tab abilities. Little change with a big impact (in a positive sense of course)



    Again, it's just as simple as that to keep class balance in place with the current Tenacity changes on preview.









    P.S. How can you even compare @thefabricant who does his job right by playing and testing the game, he is providing real data with easy understandable charts, proof and explanations. He is always up-to-date in regards to class balance and knows the metas of the game. None of the above mentioned players can even claim to come near to thefabricant even more so that I know they're not actively playing the game for couple modules now. Please don't put shame on his name.

    icyphish said:

    I like @xsayajinx1 's idea of implementing a different layer of DR for Unstoppable and Sprint, however what I fear is, that still doesn't change the fact that GWF will remain one of the easiest target to be one rotated.

    Unstoppable can only be casted after we take enough damage and standing still, if we get proned, then we will probably be one of the easiest targets to be one rotated, and that doesn't sound right for a off-tank class to me.

    Sprint is similar, there is about a 0.5 delay from casting to actually sprinting, which means GWF still wont be able to avoid a lot of instant burst attacks, such as Bull Charge.

    As GWF is a off-tank / DPS class, I think Dev should really work out a way to make GWF more in-line with their design. (such as granting GWF more DR that applies at a different layer from feats or getting more %HP from Feats...etc) then GWF could be more in-line with their designated role.

    However I do think those two are great ideas and should really be considered while doing GWF rework. Like said by many of the people above (probably like 50% of the posts?) GWF is already a disadvantaged class in serious premade, GWFs can often get one rotated by GFs, one shotted by TR (or become unable to move+defend against perm CB), or just pretty hopeless against combat HRs, not enough DPS to kill OP/SW and neither DC, so unless there is a DPS partner, its really difficult for GWF to kill anything on their own, while all TR/GF/HR are capable of killing just about everyone and survive better than GWF.

    I really think every class should excel in PvP in different ways, so if by implementing the idea @xsayajinx1 suggested above, then that would at least make GWF more tanky and can truthfully become more of a off-tank class in PvP.

    PS: I think it would be nice if Sprint can benefit the same way SW's shadow walk works, granting 100% immunity in the first second, then decrease by 20% every second...etc


    +1 i think this would be a nice implemantation, and much easier to add.
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