Trickster Rogue Class Balance Suggestions

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  • trgluestickz
    trgluestickz Member Posts: 1,136 Arc User
    edited June 2017

    I know many of you want this class to be better, but some of you are focusing on your playstyle only or rather what playstyle you would like to see.



    Suggested changes would be nice for some builds, but destroy others.



    What I see here is a group of players ego stroking their desired effects into wishful existence.



    Notice how some enchantments grant stealth in combat to enemy players? Notice again how that stealth makes it impossible to see or target them. This is how tr stealth should be.



    The moment we enter stealth we should be granted true stealth that breaks target lock and does not allow the enemy to see us no matter how close they are. This true stealth should last for at least 1/3 of our total stealth duration. The remaining 2/3 of stealth should function in game as it does now, Meaning those close to us should be able to see us.

    I don't think this is a good idea, if anything, your stealth idea looks like it would have a negative impact on pvp and do little to improve pve. It does not fix any pressing issues of the TR class and it comes with too many cons to be worth it.
    For pve, the only thing the invisibility part of our stealth needs is for certain enemies to no longer be able to see through our stealth, some foes can see through our stealth like it isn't even there.
    For pvp, we don't need more defensive measures in place for stealth, its already very effective and difficult for people to find or hit us while stealthed.
    I can see this being easy to abuse too, you could build for permastealth and then refill your stealth before its ticked down all the way, effectivly having that super stealth up more often than your regular stealth.
    A similar comparison to your idea is the shadowclad enchantment's stealth which makes you 100% invisible instead of putting you into the same kind of stealth as a TR. Its very potent even as just a short enchantment effect, I would not want to see this implemented for TR stealth, something you can use more often.
    If you chose to wear a shadowclad on top of your sugestion, now you have even more super stealth at your disposal.
    Also, this idea will undoubtably generate more complaints from pvpers which will increase the chance of TRs getting nerfed again later down the road.
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  • demonmonger
    demonmonger Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 3,350 Arc User
    Every potential suggestion has a negative side.... some were just ignored because the idea was suggested by the "main group"
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  • rustlord
    rustlord Member Posts: 1,454 Arc User
    what main group? everything I wrote before was met with a lot of negative stuff I wasn't aware of, but I guess in the end people agreed upon it because I'm ok for making adjustments.. but you just have to realize all of this may not matter at all! all that this thread is saying in so many ways is that TR lacks damage.
  • mafiadelperro#8853
    mafiadelperro#8853 Member Posts: 56 Arc User
    @mimicking#6533 when? When we are goin to receive love
  • talon1970
    talon1970 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 152 Arc User

    @mimicking#6533 when? When we are goin to receive love

    I am afraid, that we have to wait a long time....(eternity), something like Mod20....

    And if i take a look to the "Orcus rework" with higher Hp pool, i am also afraid that the devs are going the "easy way" giving bosses more Hp, so that we could deal more damage over time..
    But there are still other classes now dealing faster and more often dps to an boss then i can.
    Not only Gf with an dps focused loadout, i have now also sometimes to "struggle" against Dcs, i have one in my guild wich is able to cast Annoited Army for the party and a few seconds later a damage daily (rince and repeat)..

    And here i am standing near BiS, most Blackice enchants r12, still some radiant r12 and azure r12, Tensers and so on, and i have often, so often the feeling i can't fill the role as single target dps...
    And still waiting and waiting and waiting for an sign or reading a patch note for the preview server "Hey guys there is some stuff we have changed for the Tr, check it out and give us respons, what is good, what is not and if so can we go on live with that."

    And my disappointment grows from week to week to......


  • blur#5900
    blur#5900 Member Posts: 490 Arc User
    @talon1970 I agree, it seems like TR isnt on their to-do list yet and probably wont be anytime soon. When it comes to CN and TR's performance its ridiculous, ill let the screenshot talk for itself.

    Top GWF's have no problems doing triple damage as shown, HR's easily do double damage, CW's close to double as well...
    I do have a problem with DF due to bad pc which skips hits (bleeds) more than anyone else probably but in such a speed run DF is not used anyway, except on Orcus so yeah, there is not much a TR can do better in CN. In t3 content situation is a bit better unless its one of those melting parties.
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  • spideymt
    spideymt Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 710 Arc User
    Paingiver unfortunality shows nothing. ACT would be much better to see.
    Maybe GWF was using Lighting + Steelblitz in trash. Did you check what you DPS did a bosses? Good TRs can perform a ton of DPS at bosses.

  • blur#5900
    blur#5900 Member Posts: 490 Arc User
    @spideymt I understand that Paingiver is not the same as ACT but its annoying to look like a support class all the time. I would have nothing against if the situation was reversed - TR looking nice in Paingiver, GWF looking nice in ACT but its just a wishful thinking. Pick any TR you like and add him into that same group instead of me, results wont change much.
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  • spideymt
    spideymt Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 710 Arc User
    Well. no offense, but when i pick a TR ( and there are really good TRs outta there) and i check ACT than only for bossfights. Reason i do so? Because i dont care about this dumb paingiver that shows nothing and everyone can manipulate it and because in my opinion a TR isnt made for trash mobs. A TR is made for boss fights. Good TRs can deal so much dps at bosses, that i sometimes dont believe the ACT log ^^.
    Paingiver makes no difference beetween bosses and trash. Thats stupid. And CN is a dungoen where a good GWF with some decent def can run into every goup first and deal his WMS a lot without dieing.
    What i wanna say:
    Dont check the paingiver...this thing is uselees as hamster.
    Believe in the power of TRs my friend.

  • blur#5900
    blur#5900 Member Posts: 490 Arc User
    edited June 2017
    @spideymt I understand what you are trying to say, boss fight matters the most for TR's. How do you explain me doing 12mil dmg and gwf doing 60mil dmg on Orcus alone, again according to Paingiver? Orcus killed before mob phase so no rushing and killing things before i get there. I am simply a bad TR? Maybe. Pick any TR, best you know, same party, compare only damage on Orcus.
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  • spideymt
    spideymt Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 710 Arc User
    Well...first of all: I know MAXIMUM. He is a really good geared GWF and knows how to do make good DPS.
    Dunno why he made so much more than you. I dont know the ACT. Maybe you had an GF in group and missed the CS? Maybe you didnt crita a lot? Maybe you did the wrong rotation? I really dont know. Thats why i use ACT to see what happened and for players who will maximize their build theese informations from ACT are very helpfull.
    And i if pick our best TR and i only compare the DPS on orcus...well.... he can beat me sometimes.

  • blur#5900
    blur#5900 Member Posts: 490 Arc User
    edited June 2017
    @spideymt Thats why i said pick any TR you like and add him into same group, not vs you, vs Maximum. Maximum is good geared yes but so am i. Rotation wise, i doubt i can improve anything in there.
    ACT may show nice number in average DPS but that does me no good if i do 20% of the boss entire hp while other dps does the rest.
    Post edited by blur#5900 on
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  • tom#6998
    tom#6998 Member Posts: 952 Arc User
    Actually if id put the best tr i know vs the best gwf i know the difference would be way smaller then u prolly think blur.
  • spideymt
    spideymt Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 710 Arc User
    edited June 2017
    ACT shows a lot more than avarage DPS. For example it shows you how effectively your skills are. I didnt say you are bad geared. I dont know you and i dont know your rotation either, because i cant see any ACT logs from you.
    If you good geared and if you know how you do your rotations and you still can only do 20% from orcus comparing to MAXIMUS? Well...i dont know. Nerf GWFs?

  • blur#5900
    blur#5900 Member Posts: 490 Arc User
    @tom#6998 I ran CN with every good TR i know except Quilla and we all had more or less same damage, difference was never more than 10mil, so if we all perform more or less the same i doubt difference vs gwf would be smaller than i would guess in best case scenario. I would be glad if i am wrong.
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  • tom#6998
    tom#6998 Member Posts: 952 Arc User
    Well Haxxident helped create this thread so i think u know him. He is way above the other TRs i know.
  • urabask
    urabask Member Posts: 2,923 Arc User
    blur#5900 said:

    @spideymt Thats why i said pick any TR you like and add him into same group, not vs you, vs Maximum. Maximum is good geared yes but so am i. Rotation wise, i doubt i can improve anything in there.
    ACT may show nice number in average DPS but that does me no good if i do 20% of the boss entire hp while other dps does the rest.

    IMO you're better off just accepting that this will happen until the devs decide to take a closer look at Lightning enchant.
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  • blur#5900
    blur#5900 Member Posts: 490 Arc User
    @tom#6998 Yes and still difference btwn me and him in CN wasnt more than 10mil. I am comparing it based on how other TRs scaled with me, maybe they would perform much better in same run against a GWF instead of me but i highly doubt it.
    @urabask I dont think its bcs of Lightning, i ran multiruns with Prokiller and WickedDuck before enchantment changes and both were easily doing more than double damage.
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  • tom#6998
    tom#6998 Member Posts: 952 Arc User
    edited June 2017
    blur#5900 said:

    @tom#6998 Yes and still difference btwn me and him in CN wasnt more than 10mil. I am comparing it based on how other TRs scaled with me, maybe they would perform much better in same run against a GWF instead of me but i highly doubt it.
    @urabask I dont think its bcs of Lightning, i ran multiruns with Prokiller and WickedDuck before enchantment changes and both were easily doing more than double damage.

    if you are really capable of dealing comparable dmg to haxx then keeping up with a GWF shoudlnt be a problem.
    Just lately he hit a 40 mio lashing blade on druffi for example. Also his dmg in FBI isnt that much lower then Wickeds in FBI and in SP he can outdps him.
    Btw why u compare your dmg in CN? Why not in a somewhat difficult dungeon like fbi/sp?

    Edit: im not saying TR is in a perfect spot right now and doesnt need a rework. But to say a TR is only capable of 1/3 of a GWFs dps is a big exaggeration
  • blur#5900
    blur#5900 Member Posts: 490 Arc User
    Its not just CN, its same situation in all older content before SKT and imo TR is heavily under performing there.
    About FBI and SP, TR has no choice at all. It has to be Master Infiltrator, it has to be Executioner, it has to use DC sigil as primary and legacy/legendary snail equip power. It has to stack dailies (2x Wob + LA or 3x Wob), it needs to have 3-4 supporters buffing him for such hits like 40mil, probably a run with 4 supporters all focusing on 1 dps with everything possible to max damage, debuffs and run time. It also needs to adds/ice blocks for Wob stacking to work and buffs/debuffs high enough so a Lashing can actually do something.
    Remove one thing from those "it has" things and you will see a drop in dmg.
    I am not comparing my damage in more difficult content because i under perform there heavily, extremely low fps, depending too much on DF and DF is skipping hits and who knows what else. In CN speed runs fps is acceptable and not depending on DF.
    Lets assume Haxxi is a wunderkind, lets say he was instead of me in that CN run, i still bet difference would be more than 50mil. Again, glad if im wrong.
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  • demonmonger
    demonmonger Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 3,350 Arc User
    edited June 2017
    If you have demon slayer boon lightfoot thief and lightning enchantment plus mirage weapon, your dps will skyrocket in cn.
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  • evilintents#3892
    evilintents#3892 Member Posts: 3 Arc User
    Two things first. Sorry if there are mistakes, English is not my native language. Second, I would like to thank Lilia Drakon and N0t0ri0us for their amazing builds.

    I have no idea how situation on PC looks like I'm ps4 player, but I don't have big issues with dmg. Of course I can't top paingiver because there are classes better in it, there are better players and I have to live with that.

    I have have been running lots of fbi lately mostly with one CW (old gs 4.3 now I think that well over 14k bis except leg mount and epic insignias) and as you all suspect he outdps me, let's say I'm mostly doing 2/3 of his dmg more or less. We always run with same DC AC (great one, perhaps one of the best on ps4), we take one more whatever and tank. Our party composition is not perfect so runs take us about 25-30 minutes. And here strange things happen concerning dps when we take gf it's as it should be 2/3 of CW damage, but magic starts when we have pally with power share this additional power increases my dmg so much that I can outdps him.
    Same thing happens in msva the more buff party has the more dmg I can do compared to players that normally outdps me. They don't gain as much from this buff compared to me. This is really strange like there is a certain point in which we suddenly can compete and beat others who normally outdps us.

    Is tr class really so much power dependent?
  • micky1p00
    micky1p00 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 3,540 Arc User
    edited June 2017

    Two things first. Sorry if there are mistakes, English is not my native language. Second, I would like to thank Lilia Drakon and N0t0ri0us for their amazing builds.



    I have no idea how situation on PC looks like I'm ps4 player, but I don't have big issues with dmg. Of course I can't top paingiver because there are classes better in it, there are better players and I have to live with that.



    I have have been running lots of fbi lately mostly with one CW (old gs 4.3 now I think that well over 14k bis except leg mount and epic insignias) and as you all suspect he outdps me, let's say I'm mostly doing 2/3 of his dmg more or less. We always run with same DC AC (great one, perhaps one of the best on ps4), we take one more whatever and tank. Our party composition is not perfect so runs take us about 25-30 minutes. And here strange things happen concerning dps when we take gf it's as it should be 2/3 of CW damage, but magic starts when we have pally with power share this additional power increases my dmg so much that I can outdps him.

    Same thing happens in msva the more buff party has the more dmg I can do compared to players that normally outdps me. They don't gain as much from this buff compared to me. This is really strange like there is a certain point in which we suddenly can compete and beat others who normally outdps us.



    Is tr class really so much power dependent?

    It's mainly because of how whirlwind works, the more you have the more you gain. And this is why the discussion few posts above, if you manage to double dip or triple and so on whirlwind you can outdps everything. But it's not a good balance solution as a class.
  • evilintents#3892
    evilintents#3892 Member Posts: 3 Arc User
    edited June 2017
    No it's not whirlwind I still can't keep up on trash.
    The insane dmg I did was during bosses, before hati I was 60 milion behind, after turtle we were same, at the end I have finished with 20 milion dmg more than CW. It was 350 and 330 for him.
    Post edited by evilintents#3892 on
  • mafiadelperro#8853
    mafiadelperro#8853 Member Posts: 56 Arc User
    edited June 2017
    My build is optimize to run with a pally 200k of hp not for the power is for the aura of corauge lol is OP even without the benefits of SOD on it still best cause aura of corauge scale with other buff
  • wizardlvl80#5963
    wizardlvl80#5963 Member Posts: 519 Arc User
    Hello guys. My friend doesn't have a forum account so I'll ask in his name: is the TR balance change coming up in mod12 or later? Thanks in advance.
  • spideymt
    spideymt Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 710 Arc User

    Hello guys. My friend doesn't have a forum account so I'll ask in his name: is the TR balance change coming up in mod12 or later? Thanks in advance.

    Last big one was 2014. No new balancing announced till yet.

  • rustlord
    rustlord Member Posts: 1,454 Arc User
    edited June 2017

    Hello guys. My friend doesn't have a forum account so I'll ask in his name: is the TR balance change coming up in mod12 or later? Thanks in advance.

    No. It was only a very tentative live stream blown to a complete hype. Mod12 changes are more global, tenacity and armor penetration changes but expect some implications to TR. Piercing is taking a fairly substantial nerf.
  • rhaknalm
    rhaknalm Member Posts: 21 Arc User
    edited January 2018
    Delete comment
    Post edited by rhaknalm on
  • rhaknalm
    rhaknalm Member Posts: 21 Arc User
    As a TR i think for the most part, our power really comes from our knowledge of the class aswell as keeping a good rotation, the one aspect i feel that does need love is the Whisperknife paragon path. As stated in comments prior it just doesn't come close to MI, I play WK just for fun when I'm not doing a serious dungeon run. What i have noticed is that as WK we can keep stealth up almost consistently as well as combat advantage if feated into hateful knives. but of course lurkers and whirlwind is always the go to for both paths. but as we know, there is no ap gain with lurkers while its active, so I tend to go with hateful for single target and groups smaller than 5 to keep up combat advantage via advantageous position. While Mi gives us quit a few get out of jail free cards, while it be ITC or having invisible infiltrator artifact power on, or skillful's artifact power as well. Wk is way more unforgiving, we get the second proc of vengeance pursuit but still take full damage.

    So now my thoughts, please excuse my grammar. i believe WK should be more risk reward, i feel it should be as the name of the path states (Whisper Knife) the path should be risk reward, a one shot kill path, surprise and ambush with massive burst. give us passives with increased damage not only upon first strikes but leaving stealth as well and when we are behind targets or the target isn't focused on us. yes we get first strike, but WK should get a passive that's a first strike as well as a high damage bonus for coming out of stealth maybe modify razor action to do this instead of just flinging daggers that hit for a few thousand, modify it to gives 30% damage bonus on first strike and every first strike when leaving stealth. I mean with MI we can ITC through any tight spot but with WK your movements and attacks need to be coordinated with little room for error.

    Vengeance pursuit as stated in prior posts should give us a damage bonus as well. also the targeting needs to be fine tuned because in boss fights i have to stare at the ceiling otherwise it thinks I'm trying to hit my team mates.

    advantageous position already gives us defense when it is up so give us increase combat advantage gain from it, maybe 10%-20% while its active.

    Disheartening strike is slower than gloaming or as slow, so even if it hits hard its useless. so increase the attack speed to cloud of steel to make it relevant.

    hateful knives feat gives is pretty solid right now, but give it a damage increase as well so we can stack dagger threat with the bonus, making it do damage close to or better than shocking execution. possibly even replacing lurkers for Hateful, also giving razor action an increased damage boost as well.

    I believe MI is fine the way it is currently, I try to think of ways to make it better but i don't see how without breaking it. Our class is based on knowledge, timing, and skill so i believe that buffing things in MI to make it easier for others to do higher damage would make TR in the hands of people already bringing out it's full potential truly unbalanced.

    My IGN is Behelit, these are my thoughts, thank you for you'r time.

    P.S. i don't see my posts show up so if this is getting double posted sorry. I'm not seeing anything i post show up in this thread