> @ravenskya said: > I just love that an Ice Giant is more dangerous than a Demon Prince....
----- From an in game perspective, Storvald has an immensely powerful artifact, which is why the PCs are trying to stop him. Orcus on the Prime Material Plane isn't at his full power as well.
Beyond that, however, this issue has existed in the game since the beginning though. The frost goblins on Icespire Peak are worse than the devils in Helm's Hold. Nothing is really a fixed power level as in tabletop, everything is scaled to whatever the players are expected to be at the moment. If demon princes were the ultimate challenge, the game would basically be over except for rehashes of Underdark/Maze Engine.
"We have always been at war with Dread Vault" ~ Little Brother
First off, I don't have a tank, so this is going to come from a DC and DPS perspective. On my DC (10k) I ran a no tank run after the nerf for funsies and was able to heal through Orcus's hits on the GWF enough to allow the GWF to tank Orcus for about 75% of the fight before one of us got our timing off and they went down. That is what I have to do for a challenge in CN now on my DC. The tanks laugh at Orcus. Everyone stands in the green balls and life steals through it. People don't want my DC for the heals in CN, they want my buffs. I could throw on my DO build and run behind the party doing nothing at this point, as long as Terrifying Insight was slotted. That makes for a sad and boring dungeon
On my TR, things are at least interesting to a point. I can now stand in the death balls and laugh because they tickle. I kinda miss having to watch for the deathballs and running away and praying that I could lifesteal/get healed enough before the next wand o death attack, that was fun. But hey, tickle balls!
> I just love that an Ice Giant is more dangerous than a Demon Prince....
-----
From an in game perspective, Storvald has an immensely powerful artifact, which is why the PCs are trying to stop him. Orcus on the Prime Material Plane isn't at his full power as well.
Beyond that, however, this issue has existed in the game since the beginning though. The frost goblins on Icespire Peak are worse than the devils in Helm's Hold. Nothing is really a fixed power level as in tabletop, everything is scaled to whatever the players are expected to be at the moment. If demon princes were the ultimate challenge, the game would basically be over except for rehashes of Underdark/Maze Engine.
Pretty sure even the trash mob giants in Cold Run hit harder than Orcus.
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santralafaxMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 2,896Arc User
First off, I don't have a tank, so this is going to come from a DC and DPS perspective. On my DC (10k) I ran a no tank run after the nerf for funsies and was able to heal through Orcus's hits on the GWF enough to allow the GWF to tank Orcus for about 75% of the fight before one of us got our timing off and they went down.
I thought you were describing my recent run through on a GWF, until you said they went down...
Did any GF try to tank him with knights challenge? I dont have greater demonic keys left on my GF, so I did not run it after the changes. After the things I read, it should be possible now.
Chars: CW, DC, GF, GWF, HR and TR.
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greywyndMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 7,092Arc User
It was possible before. Used to do it that way. Never took a hit from him when I did. Had his undivided attention outside the range of his wand.
I'm not looking for forgiveness, and I'm way past asking permission. Earth just lost her best defender, so we're here to fight. And if you want to stand in our way, we'll fight you too.
It was possible before. Used to do it that way. Never took a hit from him when I did. Had his undivided attention outside the range of his wand.
What is the point of KC if you're not going to hit him the whole time? Some sort of dumb aggro tool for bad tanks?
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greywyndMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 7,092Arc User
The greatest warrior wins without striking a blow.
I'm not looking for forgiveness, and I'm way past asking permission. Earth just lost her best defender, so we're here to fight. And if you want to stand in our way, we'll fight you too.
The greatest warrior wins without striking a blow.
Nah, I'm pretty sure that the greatest warrior is that GF that wails on Orcus and hits him for like 8+ million.
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greywyndMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 7,092Arc User
Try studying Sun Tzu.
I'm not looking for forgiveness, and I'm way past asking permission. Earth just lost her best defender, so we're here to fight. And if you want to stand in our way, we'll fight you too.
I'm sorry but I have to agree with @thefabricant cause he would do more than 400,000k damage in a single hit at times and even for a 11500k OP (Pally) with 150k HP normally and various extra HP encounter powers you could still easily be ONE SHOT or very easily brought down to less than 10% HP in a single hit and then be dead if you weren't quickly recovered or healed by a Cleric.
When thefabricant said previously OP (Pally) often had issues I also saw a lot of even 12k-13k (or previously 3.3k Pally's barely be able to TANK him depending on which paragon or feat path chosen. GF are a slightly different situation cause they can hold shields up while also attacking, but I can't comment on them specifically cause I don't play one. I knew it was overly insane hit's Paladin's suffered as a result of his hits up real close. I do think a NERF was well called for cause while my HR, and CW could play CN around 11500 gear score with help of a few higher gear score players my Paladin never even made the attempt cause he'd just end up having to LEAVE whereas now he can actually play.
Still being FAIR to all sides... While CN is an EPIC dungeon the NERF was justified as they made other changes to Cleric's that limited AA among other things that made TANKING him increasingly difficult. Having said that I'd welcome a Master Version of CN in that restored Orcus to his old glory for those looking for a significantly harder boss fight.
I'd welcome a Master Version of CN in that restored Orcus to his old glory for those looking for a significantly harder boss fight.
I think this is right on.
The way I understand it, the change was meant to do 3 things: 1) Bring CN difficulty in line with T2 dungeon 2) Make Orcus accessible to lower geared tanks 3) Encourage players to engage with the combat mechanics instead of being frustrated by them
Well, I think it did #1 and #2 relatively well. Problem is I wish they hadn't, because now the result is boring Orcus. In most end game runs (12k+ let's say) you can absolutely ignore all of the mechanics, including the once infamous balls. As predicted, the fight just kind of takes longer (can be made up for with stronger party), and has been rendered uninteresting for end-game groups.
A master version of CN would address that, whether "restored" or better yet changed with the objective of making the fight harder while encouraging players to engage with the combat mechanics.
Oh right, because #3 failed pretty hard. Random pug parties I join typically ignore more mechanics than before.
I did join a PuG party for CN with my GF. I spawned at the boss camber. While it was boring with my CW, it is hell with a GF. I joined at the boss fight and we needed 2 tries. 1st try I was alone with an undergeared HR before the boss lost 1/3 rd of his HP, alone at 2/3rd and messed up at 5%. With a few lucky hits and a brain AFK GF, Orcus can still kill you.
Even just doing the boss fight with a PuG group as GF is an experience, I dont want to have again. Without decent dmg the boss fight takes ages. Talking about dmg, my GF was paingiver at the end of the dungeon, even though I just joined for the boss fight. I pity every tactican GF running PuG.
I dont believe, that any player without decent gear will run this dungeon more, then 2 or 3 times. Without a decent group it is not difficult, but a colossal waste of time.
I ran CN for a few days after the nerf. I haven't done it since. Basically I now refuse to do CN without ALL DPS at 13K+, or 12K+ with buffing GF and DC.
Before, my GF had saved so many would-be failed runs when there was at least one decent DPS, carrying two or three toons. No more now.
Comments
> I just love that an Ice Giant is more dangerous than a Demon Prince....
-----
From an in game perspective, Storvald has an immensely powerful artifact, which is why the PCs are trying to stop him. Orcus on the Prime Material Plane isn't at his full power as well.
Beyond that, however, this issue has existed in the game since the beginning though. The frost goblins on Icespire Peak are worse than the devils in Helm's Hold. Nothing is really a fixed power level as in tabletop, everything is scaled to whatever the players are expected to be at the moment. If demon princes were the ultimate challenge, the game would basically be over except for rehashes of Underdark/Maze Engine.
On my DC (10k) I ran a no tank run after the nerf for funsies and was able to heal through Orcus's hits on the GWF enough to allow the GWF to tank Orcus for about 75% of the fight before one of us got our timing off and they went down. That is what I have to do for a challenge in CN now on my DC. The tanks laugh at Orcus. Everyone stands in the green balls and life steals through it. People don't want my DC for the heals in CN, they want my buffs. I could throw on my DO build and run behind the party doing nothing at this point, as long as Terrifying Insight was slotted. That makes for a sad and boring dungeon
On my TR, things are at least interesting to a point. I can now stand in the death balls and laugh because they tickle. I kinda miss having to watch for the deathballs and running away and praying that I could lifesteal/get healed enough before the next wand o death attack, that was fun. But hey, tickle balls!
When thefabricant said previously OP (Pally) often had issues I also saw a lot of even 12k-13k (or previously 3.3k Pally's barely be able to TANK him depending on which paragon or feat path chosen. GF are a slightly different situation cause they can hold shields up while also attacking, but I can't comment on them specifically cause I don't play one. I knew it was overly insane hit's Paladin's suffered as a result of his hits up real close. I do think a NERF was well called for cause while my HR, and CW could play CN around 11500 gear score with help of a few higher gear score players my Paladin never even made the attempt cause he'd just end up having to LEAVE whereas now he can actually play.
Still being FAIR to all sides... While CN is an EPIC dungeon the NERF was justified as they made other changes to Cleric's that limited AA among other things that made TANKING him increasingly difficult. Having said that I'd welcome a Master Version of CN in that restored Orcus to his old glory for those looking for a significantly harder boss fight.
The way I understand it, the change was meant to do 3 things:
1) Bring CN difficulty in line with T2 dungeon
2) Make Orcus accessible to lower geared tanks
3) Encourage players to engage with the combat mechanics instead of being frustrated by them
Well, I think it did #1 and #2 relatively well. Problem is I wish they hadn't, because now the result is boring Orcus. In most end game runs (12k+ let's say) you can absolutely ignore all of the mechanics, including the once infamous balls. As predicted, the fight just kind of takes longer (can be made up for with stronger party), and has been rendered uninteresting for end-game groups.
A master version of CN would address that, whether "restored" or better yet changed with the objective of making the fight harder while encouraging players to engage with the combat mechanics.
Oh right, because #3 failed pretty hard. Random pug parties I join typically ignore more mechanics than before.
Even just doing the boss fight with a PuG group as GF is an experience, I dont want to have again. Without decent dmg the boss fight takes ages. Talking about dmg, my GF was paingiver at the end of the dungeon, even though I just joined for the boss fight. I pity every tactican GF running PuG.
I dont believe, that any player without decent gear will run this dungeon more, then 2 or 3 times. Without a decent group it is not difficult, but a colossal waste of time.
I ran CN for a few days after the nerf. I haven't done it since. Basically I now refuse to do CN without ALL DPS at 13K+, or 12K+ with buffing GF and DC.
Before, my GF had saved so many would-be failed runs when there was at least one decent DPS, carrying two or three toons. No more now.