i have to agree with zeatrex, the only way a op/gf tank could hold out at a low item level against orcus is with a dc or paly healing them only, more preferred a dc though. each hit would bring the paly/gf down to around 10% or lower, only save point for the paly/gf would be when orcus turned around and slapped a tanking pet that was probably around. if no tanking pet was around orcus then the gf/paly would more likely die on the second melee hit if the dc/paly healer didnt focus their heals on them quickly. i believe whatever paly/gf you saw "tanking" orcus was pretty much getting immunity from astro shield divine x3 empowered abilities or a paly healer that was a high item level which just one cure wounds right/left click would instantly heal him completely. other then that, no a low item level tank which was just about the required item level, not even 9.5k tanks could tank orcus unless they had a real good dc/paly healer in the party.
You guys ever heard of fighters recovery and guarded assualt?
And so what if you needed a DC to help heal you or lay down Astral Shield? This game is supposed to be about team play. Used to be a time when Tank took aggro, DC healed tank and without that combination working together as a team the run failed. Now players are complaining if they need help from the DC to tank a boss, at close to minimum Ilevel . . . . . . wow.
But hey, how awesome is Orcus now? Probably a DC or a CW could face tank him now, great.
i have to agree with zeatrex, the only way a op/gf tank could hold out at a low item level against orcus is with a dc or paly healing them only, more preferred a dc though. each hit would bring the paly/gf down to around 10% or lower, only save point for the paly/gf would be when orcus turned around and slapped a tanking pet that was probably around. if no tanking pet was around orcus then the gf/paly would more likely die on the second melee hit if the dc/paly healer didnt focus their heals on them quickly. i believe whatever paly/gf you saw "tanking" orcus was pretty much getting immunity from astro shield divine x3 empowered abilities or a paly healer that was a high item level which just one cure wounds right/left click would instantly heal him completely. other then that, no a low item level tank which was just about the required item level, not even 9.5k tanks could tank orcus unless they had a real good dc/paly healer in the party.
Or they were just using steel defense and fighter's recovery on a tac GF and could actually pull their rotation off without HAMSTER up. Under the old ilvl system I saw 2.5k GFs doing it ezpz. That's like r7s, epic artifacts, green artifact equips etc. Most of the low ilvl GFs that couldn't tank Orcus just have poorly built toons and are bad at timing their encounters.
@darthpotater I'm not even going to waste my time, you probably don't even have a tank and this is why you stating all that non-sense. At least Heartbrake understands it, or probably has a tank and knows the facts as described, that is exactly what goes on. Again, back when Orcus did do crazy damage, you didn't even need a tank back then to kill him since DC/SW/CW/HR could solo him either way.
But you wanted a tank because of their utility and ability to hold aggro. It also let you take GWFs and TRs instead of being that HAMSTER asking for four ranged DPS.
you didn't even need a tank back then to kill him since DC/SW/CW/HR could solo him either way.
GWFs did orcus too solo. Just let you know. GFs also did orcus solo before we got this "fix". Check YT "Neverwinter Orcus solo". You will find some vids from GFs like bethel or an really old one from Lazalia and his GWF. And sry...but sharp didnt say anything wrong. You dont need that attitude. I still think there was no need to "fix" orcus that way. It was a skill check. We need bosses where you need at least a bit of skill. Now no skill needed anymore at orcus. He is just tickeling. This cant be the right way in NW.
Lets be honest a 4k (or 16k whatever it is now) GWF/GF soloing a boss isn't really all that relevant to this conversation.
Lets be honest a 4k (or 16k whatever it is now) GWF/GF soloing a boss isn't really all that relevant to this conversation.
I just made this example that range DDs werent the only classes who did orcus solo. At this time Lazalia wasnt the only GWF who did orcus solo, but he was the only one you found on YT. And for a melee dd class was GS secoundary. You need a really good tank pet and you need skill. You have to rebuild your GWF too and need to know what you are doing and when you have to watch out. At least a bit of skill was needed. What "skill" do you need at orcus since they "fixed" it?
Lets be honest a 4k (or 16k whatever it is now) GWF/GF soloing a boss isn't really all that relevant to this conversation.
I just made this example that range DDs werent the only classes who did orcus solo. At this time Lazalia wasnt the only GWF who did orcus solo, but he was the only one you found on YT. And for a melee dd class was GS secoundary. You need a really good tank pet and you need skill. You have to rebuild your GWF too and need to know what you are doing and when you have to watch out. At least a bit of skill was needed. What "skill" do you need at orcus since they "fixed" it?
Are you really going to try to imply that an undergeared GWF not stacking pots to the sky could've solo'd Orcus pre-nerf? Just their lifesteal and HP would make it impossible. There was undeniably some skill involved but saying that GS was secondary is ridiculous.
I shouldn't be here because I'm ps4 - but I stalk you guys to find out upcoming changes for us.
We run CN all the time - he hasn't been nerfed for us yet. A 2400 IL GF can tank orcus with the right build once he knows the timing - my friend does it regularly. I've seen as low as a 2300IL OP successfully tank orcus with only my healadin healing. I've also seen 3300 IL OP and GF tanks get smoked by Orcus if they didn't know what was up.
CN is the tank test - did you build your tank right and do you know how to use it. Orcus was the tanking line my healadin couldn't cross.
If you have to nerf him - can we have the old version of the dungeon back too - the one people say was so much fun? Call it "Master CN" or something?
Founding Member of "Wrong Side of the Stronghold" Ravenskya - TR / Krisha Chaos - OP / Waffles - GF / Dex Domitor - HR Becky the trendy GWF - GWF / Too Toasty - SW / Falcor - DC / Morrigan - CW / Sir Didymus - OP
The nerf was done to let low ilvl players more easily complete the fight. That's the only subset of players that are really relevant here.
Orcus was allways beatable. You needed a specific minimum GS. With that GS it was allways possible to beat orcus. You just have to know what attacks he makes and when he makes them. You needed a good group play and at least some skill. Whats really relevant is: Now you dont need any knowledge/movement/skill. Even as a low ilevel player. And you dont need a tank anymore for CN. Do you really think this was a "good" nerf/fix? No tank is needed anymore and orcus got a lot more hp now....more hp = "lets take a DPS class instead of a tank. Its faster". I cant see where this is a good "fix" for tanks....sry. But who cares. Cryp made this decission and its done now. They wont take it back, so we all have to deal with it.
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kreatyveMember, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 10,545Community Moderator
Ok, I tried to clean up some of the flaming in this thread, but ya'll have it all mixed in with some valid feedback. So I'm just going to say this - stop attacking other players here. If you don't want to discuss things with them, then just don't comment. Don't feed the trolls.
My opinions are my own. I do not work for PWE or Cryptic. - Forum Rules - Protector's Enclave Discord - I play on Xbox Any of my comments not posted in orange are based on my own personal opinion and not official. Any messages written in orange are official moderation messages. Signature images are now fixed!
Hmm .. well my earlier post on this thread has reached the lower depths which is pretty awesome courtesy of the great hands you shoulder these responsibilities onto. In any case respected devs , not all feedback is going to be in your favor and there are certain things ppl will be vocal about and i for one do not wish to waste my time writing abt something that i wrote abt and now resides with Tiamat or possibly hades, in any case an interior decor would be recommended. I will however state that this is the worst possible design for a boss fight. If you want to know to why i feel strongly aboutt it, then adventure away to the lower depths and perhaps it might still be there.
@lantern22 Most of the times the GF player would die because they wouldn't time their use of encounter powers right, they would use and encounter right when Orcus would attack them, which left them wide open. Again, no tank could solo Orcus unless they are high gear score, and I mean as in at least 11k or so back in the days. I spent my time in CN not on my tank but on any other class except GF/Paly/DC just watching it happen, nothing but fail after fail. Kicking after kicking of tanks at 10k and below. You all talk about skills or whatever and claim to be able to do whatever, but now that Orcus is fixed you can't prove anything and won't prove it all because everything is just pure nonsense. Come over here and tell me it is possible, when you got a 9.5k item level tank being left with like 5% HP and right when you even pop fighters recovery, BAM! Orcus smacked dead. It's even worse for a Paladin. Unless you have a DC/Paladin healing the HAMSTER out of you, there is no way at all you can solo anything against Orcus so give it a rest.
all of you claiming it was doable must be trolling the thread, thats for sure. unless you had a dc that could adc or a paly with high heals, no im sorry - no low gear score tank could tank orcus at all, his damage was just way too high no matter what you use defense/damage resistance wise. I also read someone claiming that anointed army was bugged and made the party immune... that right there shows that person has no idea what they are even talking about like most of you in this thread. all anointed army does is reduce cool downs to practically ready-to-use state and give you a large amount of action points to the players affected. what does makes the party immune in a single ability that dcs have and that is astro shield empowered x3, nothing else, aside from a feat they can also grab that makes players immune also, but carry on with your imaginative thoughts!
and on that note, a gwf soloing orcus?.. you are talking about skills in running around and still hitting orcus? that is probably the most hilarious thing I ever heard - a gwf soloing orcus. sure if the gwf was 14k+ it might be doable... but a gwf at 9.5k or so?... my god what are you guys smoking! we arent talking about geared players we are talking about players just at the minimum requirement, it seems most of you here are talking about your high-end geared characters. if the dungeon was fine it wouldnt of been nerfed, it got nerfed because it had too. and this nerf that was given, that was not a nerf but really a fix, totally proves you are all wrong, so there!
@lantern22 no one here is talking about nw not being a team game, you are totally by passing the point zeatrex is trying to make. if your dc dies in there and you are a low gear tank, that's it! it is over for you and you will die at the second melee hit of orcus, that is the point being done and that is the truth and the fact of things. do not mix one thing with another or place words in people mouth they didnt say.
Post edited by heartbrake#3322 on
<=♥=< There is a broken up girl... For every broken down boy. >=♥=>
I have absolutely no issue with this nerf because this is just going to make farming CN go faster. The comments in here range from insightful to downright laughable.
On one hand, I agree with lower IL players that Orcus can and will one shot your GF/OP very easily. On the other hand, I have run with players that have been tanking Orcus without dying since they were IL 2300 (whatever that translates to in the new system).
The main issue here is builds and skill. That's all it boils down to.
The minority of players that can master a class are the ones that are going to find this nerf unacceptable. IMO this has more to do with the fact that they had to run CN when Orcus was capable of oneshotting so why should newer players get an easy pass.
People saying that Orcus couldn't be tanked by a low IL tank are wrong. Just because you couldn't do it, that doesn't mean it wasn't possible. It just means that some players are better at it. There's nothing wrong with that. Some people are just better at this game than others. I've seen 4k OPs get swatted down by Orcus in one hit and I've seen 2300 GFs tank it smoothly. Same exact buffs/debuffs.
This is no different than a SW getting out DPSed by another SW. A better player gets better results.
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thefabricantMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 5,248Arc User
all of you claiming it was doable must be trolling the thread, thats for sure. unless you had a dc that could adc or a paly with high heals, no im sorry - no low gear score tank could tank orcus at all, his damage was just way too high no matter what you use defense/damage resistance wise. I also read someone claiming that anointed army was bugged and made the party immune... that right there shows that person has no idea what they are even talking about like most of you in this thread. all anointed army does is reduce cool downs to practically ready-to-use state and give you a large amount of action points to the players affected. what does makes the party immune in a single ability that dcs have and that is astro shield empowered x3, nothing else, aside from a feat they can also grab that makes players immune also, but carry on with your imaginative thoughts!
and on that note, a gwf soloing orcus?.. you are talking about skills in running around and still hitting orcus? that is probably the most hilarious thing I ever heard - a gwf soloing orcus. sure if the gwf was 14k+ it might be doable... but a gwf at 9.5k or so?... my god what are you guys smoking! we arent talking about geared players we are talking about players just at the minimum requirement, it seems most of you here are talking about your high-end geared characters. if the dungeon was fine it wouldnt of been nerfed, it got nerfed because it had too. and this nerf that was given, that was not a nerf but really a fix, totally proves you are all wrong, so there!
no one here is talking about nw not being a team game, you are totally by passing the point zeatrex is trying to make. if your dc dies in there and you are a low gear tank, that's it! it is over for you and you will die at the second melee hit of orcus, that is the point being done and that is the truth and the fact of things. do not mix one thing with another or place words in people mouth they didnt say.
@heartbrake#3322 I don't mean to burst your bubble, but in mod 10 AA was bugged and granted full damage immunity to 4 hits. This was fixed with the DC changes in mod 11. Sure, I will concede to you, that a 2k pally or gf likely cannot tank orcus alone and would probably need assistance from a dc or an op, but is that really an issue? Don't you think that at the minimum ilvl requirement, players should have to work together to succeed? Or don't you want to hear that, I hope you not too blind to see that in a MMO, (with the word multiplayer) it is implied that there is some teamwork involved. In those particular pug runs, yes, I was AC (loadouts were not a thing) but I did not use AA and neither did I use 3x empowered astral shield, empowered bts likely makes a bigger difference anyhow since it reduces the bosses damage by 40%. It was possible to do. Just remember in a MMO you're not alone and you can rely on other people. Yes, if the DC wipes, the tank probably will as well, but the fault there lies with the DC and not the tank. (Yes, blame the dc and if the dc happens to be me then blame sharp.) There is nothing wrong with 2 people working together, especially in that kind of situation and it can be quite satisfying and fun for everyone involved, to overcome difficulty as a team. Talk to me here though, do feel free to share your opinion if you feel otherwise.
Anyhow, I have edited this post to death, trying to be too clever for my own good, so I will let it rest.
Those tanks you saw dying vs pre-nerf Orcus didn't know what they were doing, plain and simple, any decent GF or OP could survive him. I tanked him when I was sub 2,5k item level on my GF and my hp was in the 110k - 127k range, I even had runs of me + 4 dps, like those GF (me) + 4 GWF runs I did back in the day. It is all about knowing fight mechanics and using the right powers, heck, not sure why people even mention steel defence, I stopped using it for good shortly after CN was released, Orcus' damage output (given my stats at that time) made him the very first challenging boss fight in which I actually had to try to survive when pugging (especially with undergeared people like I was back then).
Claiming that a lower - mid tier tank couldn't do its job against pre-nerf Orcus shows you 2 are missing the basics of both GF and OP and I think it may be one of the reasons the posts of you 2 may not be taken seriously at all (most likely) as some of us did tank Orcus when we were low level.
You 2 saw/ran with poorly built and played tanks it seems.
Edit: I forgot to add, heartbrake, anointed army was indeed bugged and it was providing total damage immunity, it allowed players to be pretty much immortal if DC's had high ap gain, for example Drufi's call of winder could be completely ignored as it would deal 0 damage to players protected by AA. That comment of yours regarding AA is yet another reason your post won't be taken seriously. Feel free to check mod 10.5 videos on youtube, there you can see yourself AA was indeed completely negating incoming damage while it was up.
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dread4moorMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,154Arc User
> @zeatrex said: > "Again, no tank could solo Orcus unless they are high gear score, " False. Won many times with my low gear tanks. Trained/witnessed dozens of other low gear tanks to succeed. If you cannot, you are doing it wrong.
"Come over here and tell me it is possible, when you got a 9.5k item level tank" It is NOT possible. It is probable. Done it <10K, seen others <10K, taught others <10K many many tines. If you cannot, you are doing it wrong.
"being left with like 5% HP and right when you even pop fighters recovery, BAM! Orcus smacked dead. "
LMAO. That is not how FR is used. The fact that you do not understand how FR works is clear proof: you are doing it wrong.
> @heartbrake#3322 said: > all of you claiming it was doable must be trolling the thread, thats for sure.
You caught us. Yes. Not to educate, support fellow players (by correcting false statements) or to improve the game. How did you guess?
"unless you had a dc that could adc or a paly with high heals, no im sorry - no low gear score tank could tank orcus at all, his damage was way too high"
False, False and False. 1)AC DC no longer offers full and lasting immunity with AA. If you rely on AA, you are doing it wrong.
2) High heals do NOT help against one-hits at all. If you rely on heals, you are doing it wrong.
3) Orcus damage is only high if you are ill-prepared to mitigate and are not following the timing/strategy. If you do not follow the well-documented tanking strategy, you are doing it wrong.
With every sentence you are self-diagnosing the root causes of your tanking failures.
@heartbrake#3322 @zeatrex I tanked Orcus low gear with success. I tanked Orcus high gear with success. I trained dozens of low gear tanks to tank Orcus with success.
Gear is less important then strategy.
As neither of you has ever been successful at Orcus it is impossible for you to know what is or is not a successful strategy. I would offer to teach you, but the cognative dissonance is clearly impenetrable.
I am Took.
"Full plate and packing steel" in NW since 2013.
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lantern22Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,111Arc User
Most of the times the GF player would die because they wouldn't time their use of encounter powers right, they would use and encounter right when Orcus would attack them, which left them wide open.
Simple - learn to time your encounters better. If there is lag, adjust for it. Look for when the damage hits your health bar as well as when he appears to swing on the screen. The duration between attacks is fairly consistent, its not that hard.
Come over here and tell me it is possible, when you got a 9.5k item level tank
Its doable.
When I first started tanking Orcus I was only a bit over the min gear score (maybe 2.8K, so around 9.5K now). I was a Iron Vanguard Tactician - so I didn't have Steel Defence, nor much HP (I still only have 130K) or a massive amount of defence or damage mitigation (I still only have 15K defence). It's doable, easily.
being left with like 5% HP and right when you even pop fighters recovery, BAM! Orcus smacked dead.
Did you ever think of using Fighters Recovery before you got to 5% health? How about using it when you were at 100% health, then with guarded assault when Orcus hits you he fills your health bar up to full again with every hit. With this high damage he fills up your AP bar with every hit. You should have been able to keep fighters recovery up 100% of the time. A smart tank would learn to adjust and use his high damage against him. All you have to do is time one encounter between each one of his hits - easy enough.
all of you claiming it was doable must be trolling the thread, thats for sure.
Ahh right, another brilliant observation from yourself. It was one of us claiming Orcus is doable that started this thread, actually if there are any trolls here, it is you.
I also read someone claiming that anointed army was bugged and made the party immune... that right there shows that person has no idea what they are even talking about like most of you in this thread. all anointed army does is reduce cool downs to practically ready-to-use state and give you a large amount of action points to the players affected.
umm . . . . . . really, maybe go and do some homework before you start flaming ppl.
his damage was just way too high no matter what you use defense/damage resistance wise.
Fighters Recovery + Guarded Assualt + Block = massive heals from guess what, Orcus himself. A GF didn't need a DC when Orcus was healing with such huge amounts. I nearly always ended up on top of Field Medic because of the huge amount of "self" heals. No DC needed.
If you intend to do a dungeon at the minimum requirement, you should expect to have to work with other players to achieve your goal.
Once again good to see the master at work. Team games are for team players. Whether you like it or not Neverwinter is an MMO, which is a team game, which means you need to be a team player.
I'm a theorycrafter, that means I can answer fairly deep questions with scientific theory, mathematical proof, and some guessing. Ask me stuff!
all of you claiming it was doable must be trolling the thread, thats for sure. unless you had a dc that could adc or a paly with high heals, no im sorry - no low gear score tank could tank orcus at all, his damage was just way too high no matter what you use defense/damage resistance wise. I also read someone claiming that anointed army was bugged and made the party immune... that right there shows that person has no idea what they are even talking about like most of you in this thread. all anointed army does is reduce cool downs to practically ready-to-use state and give you a large amount of action points to the players affected. what does makes the party immune in a single ability that dcs have and that is astro shield empowered x3, nothing else, aside from a feat they can also grab that makes players immune also, but carry on with your imaginative thoughts!
and on that note, a gwf soloing orcus?.. you are talking about skills in running around and still hitting orcus? that is probably the most hilarious thing I ever heard - a gwf soloing orcus. sure if the gwf was 14k+ it might be doable... but a gwf at 9.5k or so?... my god what are you guys smoking! we arent talking about geared players we are talking about players just at the minimum requirement, it seems most of you here are talking about your high-end geared characters. if the dungeon was fine it wouldnt of been nerfed, it got nerfed because it had too. and this nerf that was given, that was not a nerf but really a fix, totally proves you are all wrong, so there!
no one here is talking about nw not being a team game, you are totally by passing the point zeatrex is trying to make. if your dc dies in there and you are a low gear tank, that's it! it is over for you and you will die at the second melee hit of orcus, that is the point being done and that is the truth and the fact of things. do not mix one thing with another or place words in people mouth they didnt say.
You could've at least just checked the tooltips if you don't know what DC powers do. They might not be completely accurate but you'd have gotten a lot closer than this nonsense.
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jumpingmorksMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 876Arc User
Personally I kinda like the changes, I could tank Orcus fine on a 2,4k GF with a max enchant rank of 8 but if lag was awful and/or I was tired it would be an issue on my main tank which is considerably better geared. At least now he isn't being melted in under a minute, so I guess that makes it appear as if he is epic, they have reduced the damage of the death spheres too it seems.
When lag was bad I used to have to go by the sounds, because the animations wouldn't sync with the actual strikes, the sounds seemed to be much better synched even on bad lag days.
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micky1p00Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,594Arc User
edited June 2017
Can I just point out that heartbrake#3322 account was freshly made, with the only purpose to post here (made yesterday and only has 2 posts, both in this thread), so we can just safely ignore it......
I was pointed to this thread because I heard "Sharp bait hohahaha!"
So... while I'm here, anybody want some of this [Greater Box of Popcorn]?
----
... What, Sharp? You wanted me to provide something productive to the thread? Fine.
Prepatch Orcus's semi-artificial difficulty, postpatch Orcus' tickles, either way, Orcus is tankable with the right knowledge. The only thing this changes is that CN is more forgiving for newer tanks.
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lantern22Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,111Arc User
pffft
The boss at the end of eSOT hits harder than Orcus now. It's a disgrace.
Replace him with the Stay Puff Marshallow Man and I'll call that even.
Be careful what you wish for, you might just get it.
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forumnamesuxsMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 490Arc User
I haven't run CN since before the nerf, because it was already boring AF, and loot is garbage, but after reading through most of page 1, down to kreatyve's post, it seems the dungeon difficulty is finally matching the loot drops.
Wolves, big as a horse! I need new pants!
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thefabricantMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 5,248Arc User
I haven't run CN since before the nerf, because it was already boring AF, and loot is garbage, but after reading through most of page 1, down to kreatyve's post, it seems the dungeon difficulty is finally matching the loot drops.
Well, I suppose this is a valid point, however, I feel like CN filled an important niche that is now missing.
dread4moorMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,154Arc User
> @thefabricant said: > > Well, I suppose this is a valid point, however, I feel like CN filled an important niche that is now missing.
Started using the FBI to train tanks instead of orcus. Pros: The hill ascent and Hati are good tests of threat maintenance, shield timing and positioning/facing. Cons: 1) Too dependent on smart play of teammates. If a GWF goes mooooaar with a green tank it is a wipe. Orcus difficulty for the tank was largely independent of what teammates were doing 2)Too long (for unskilled team) for quick training.
I am Took.
"Full plate and packing steel" in NW since 2013.
I really liked the pre-nerf Orcus. Mostly because he hit like a truck and it's the thing he should do when you look at his D&D lore. Orcus is the prince of undeath and he represents brute strength, which he did till nerf.
I tanked Orcus with my GF when he was 2.3k IL and had rank 8 bondings. It was pretty hard, but doable with good team and coordination.
It is now possible to tank Orcus with ~30% dr without heals / external sources of dr. Before the nerf 55+% dr and more attention to timing was needed. Still Orcus can be fun when tanking on min IL.
However increasing the boss HP can't be a good reason alone for 'making the fight easier' for low IL players.
I just love that an Ice Giant is more dangerous than a Demon Prince....
Founding Member of "Wrong Side of the Stronghold" Ravenskya - TR / Krisha Chaos - OP / Waffles - GF / Dex Domitor - HR Becky the trendy GWF - GWF / Too Toasty - SW / Falcor - DC / Morrigan - CW / Sir Didymus - OP
Comments
And so what if you needed a DC to help heal you or lay down Astral Shield? This game is supposed to be about team play. Used to be a time when Tank took aggro, DC healed tank and without that combination working together as a team the run failed. Now players are complaining if they need help from the DC to tank a boss, at close to minimum Ilevel . . . . . . wow.
But hey, how awesome is Orcus now? Probably a DC or a CW could face tank him now, great.
Lets be honest a 4k (or 16k whatever it is now) GWF/GF soloing a boss isn't really all that relevant to this conversation.
We run CN all the time - he hasn't been nerfed for us yet. A 2400 IL GF can tank orcus with the right build once he knows the timing - my friend does it regularly. I've seen as low as a 2300IL OP successfully tank orcus with only my healadin healing. I've also seen 3300 IL OP and GF tanks get smoked by Orcus if they didn't know what was up.
CN is the tank test - did you build your tank right and do you know how to use it. Orcus was the tanking line my healadin couldn't cross.
If you have to nerf him - can we have the old version of the dungeon back too - the one people say was so much fun? Call it "Master CN" or something?
Ravenskya - TR / Krisha Chaos - OP / Waffles - GF / Dex Domitor - HR
Becky the trendy GWF - GWF / Too Toasty - SW / Falcor - DC / Morrigan - CW / Sir Didymus - OP
Whats really relevant is:
Now you dont need any knowledge/movement/skill. Even as a low ilevel player. And you dont need a tank anymore for CN.
Do you really think this was a "good" nerf/fix? No tank is needed anymore and orcus got a lot more hp now....more hp = "lets take a DPS class instead of a tank. Its faster". I cant see where this is a good "fix" for tanks....sry.
But who cares. Cryp made this decission and its done now. They wont take it back, so we all have to deal with it.
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Most of the times the GF player would die because they wouldn't time their use of encounter powers right, they would use and encounter right when Orcus would attack them, which left them wide open. Again, no tank could solo Orcus unless they are high gear score, and I mean as in at least 11k or so back in the days. I spent my time in CN not on my tank but on any other class except GF/Paly/DC just watching it happen, nothing but fail after fail. Kicking after kicking of tanks at 10k and below. You all talk about skills or whatever and claim to be able to do whatever, but now that Orcus is fixed you can't prove anything and won't prove it all because everything is just pure nonsense. Come over here and tell me it is possible, when you got a 9.5k item level tank being left with like 5% HP and right when you even pop fighters recovery, BAM! Orcus smacked dead. It's even worse for a Paladin. Unless you have a DC/Paladin healing the HAMSTER out of you, there is no way at all you can solo anything against Orcus so give it a rest.
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and on that note, a gwf soloing orcus?.. you are talking about skills in running around and still hitting orcus? that is probably the most hilarious thing I ever heard - a gwf soloing orcus. sure if the gwf was 14k+ it might be doable... but a gwf at 9.5k or so?... my god what are you guys smoking! we arent talking about geared players we are talking about players just at the minimum requirement, it seems most of you here are talking about your high-end geared characters. if the dungeon was fine it wouldnt of been nerfed, it got nerfed because it had too. and this nerf that was given, that was not a nerf but really a fix, totally proves you are all wrong, so there!
@lantern22
no one here is talking about nw not being a team game, you are totally by passing the point zeatrex is trying to make. if your dc dies in there and you are a low gear tank, that's it! it is over for you and you will die at the second melee hit of orcus, that is the point being done and that is the truth and the fact of things. do not mix one thing with another or place words in people mouth they didnt say.
On one hand, I agree with lower IL players that Orcus can and will one shot your GF/OP very easily. On the other hand, I have run with players that have been tanking Orcus without dying since they were IL 2300 (whatever that translates to in the new system).
The main issue here is builds and skill. That's all it boils down to.
The minority of players that can master a class are the ones that are going to find this nerf unacceptable. IMO this has more to do with the fact that they had to run CN when Orcus was capable of oneshotting so why should newer players get an easy pass.
People saying that Orcus couldn't be tanked by a low IL tank are wrong. Just because you couldn't do it, that doesn't mean it wasn't possible. It just means that some players are better at it. There's nothing wrong with that. Some people are just better at this game than others. I've seen 4k OPs get swatted down by Orcus in one hit and I've seen 2300 GFs tank it smoothly. Same exact buffs/debuffs.
This is no different than a SW getting out DPSed by another SW. A better player gets better results.
Anyhow, I have edited this post to death, trying to be too clever for my own good, so I will let it rest.
Those tanks you saw dying vs pre-nerf Orcus didn't know what they were doing, plain and simple, any decent GF or OP could survive him. I tanked him when I was sub 2,5k item level on my GF and my hp was in the 110k - 127k range, I even had runs of me + 4 dps, like those GF (me) + 4 GWF runs I did back in the day. It is all about knowing fight mechanics and using the right powers, heck, not sure why people even mention steel defence, I stopped using it for good shortly after CN was released, Orcus' damage output (given my stats at that time) made him the very first challenging boss fight in which I actually had to try to survive when pugging (especially with undergeared people like I was back then).
Claiming that a lower - mid tier tank couldn't do its job against pre-nerf Orcus shows you 2 are missing the basics of both GF and OP and I think it may be one of the reasons the posts of you 2 may not be taken seriously at all (most likely) as some of us did tank Orcus when we were low level.
You 2 saw/ran with poorly built and played tanks it seems.
Edit: I forgot to add, heartbrake, anointed army was indeed bugged and it was providing total damage immunity, it allowed players to be pretty much immortal if DC's had high ap gain, for example Drufi's call of winder could be completely ignored as it would deal 0 damage to players protected by AA. That comment of yours regarding AA is yet another reason your post won't be taken seriously. Feel free to check mod 10.5 videos on youtube, there you can see yourself AA was indeed completely negating incoming damage while it was up.
> "Again, no tank could solo Orcus unless they are high gear score, "
False.
Won many times with my low gear tanks. Trained/witnessed dozens of other low gear tanks to succeed.
If you cannot, you are doing it wrong.
"Come over here and tell me it is possible, when you got a 9.5k item level tank"
It is NOT possible.
It is probable.
Done it <10K, seen others <10K, taught others <10K many many tines.
If you cannot, you are doing it wrong.
"being left with like 5% HP and right when you even pop fighters recovery, BAM! Orcus smacked dead. "
LMAO. That is not how FR is used. The fact that you do not understand how FR works is clear proof: you are doing it wrong.
> @heartbrake#3322 said:
> all of you claiming it was doable must be trolling the thread, thats for sure.
You caught us. Yes.
Not to educate, support fellow players (by correcting false statements) or to improve the game. How did you guess?
"unless you had a dc that could adc or a paly with high heals, no im sorry - no low gear score tank could tank orcus at all, his damage was way too high"
False, False and False.
1)AC DC no longer offers full and lasting immunity with AA.
If you rely on AA, you are doing it wrong.
2) High heals do NOT help against one-hits at all.
If you rely on heals, you are doing it wrong.
3) Orcus damage is only high if you are ill-prepared to mitigate and are not following the timing/strategy.
If you do not follow the well-documented tanking strategy, you are doing it wrong.
With every sentence you are self-diagnosing the root causes of your tanking failures.
@heartbrake#3322
@zeatrex
I tanked Orcus low gear with success.
I tanked Orcus high gear with success.
I trained dozens of low gear tanks to tank Orcus with success.
Gear is less important then strategy.
As neither of you has ever been successful at Orcus it is impossible for you to know what is or is not a successful strategy.
I would offer to teach you, but the cognative dissonance is clearly impenetrable.
I am Took.
"Full plate and packing steel" in NW since 2013.
Simple - learn to time your encounters better. If there is lag, adjust for it. Look for when the damage hits your health bar as well as when he appears to swing on the screen. The duration between attacks is fairly consistent, its not that hard.
Its doable.
When I first started tanking Orcus I was only a bit over the min gear score (maybe 2.8K, so around 9.5K now). I was a Iron Vanguard Tactician - so I didn't have Steel Defence, nor much HP (I still only have 130K) or a massive amount of defence or damage mitigation (I still only have 15K defence). It's doable, easily. Did you ever think of using Fighters Recovery before you got to 5% health? How about using it when you were at 100% health, then with guarded assault when Orcus hits you he fills your health bar up to full again with every hit. With this high damage he fills up your AP bar with every hit. You should have been able to keep fighters recovery up 100% of the time. A smart tank would learn to adjust and use his high damage against him. All you have to do is time one encounter between each one of his hits - easy enough. Ahh right, another brilliant observation from yourself. It was one of us claiming Orcus is doable that started this thread, actually if there are any trolls here, it is you. umm . . . . . . really, maybe go and do some homework before you start flaming ppl. Fighters Recovery + Guarded Assualt + Block = massive heals from guess what, Orcus himself. A GF didn't need a DC when Orcus was healing with such huge amounts. I nearly always ended up on top of Field Medic because of the huge amount of "self" heals. No DC needed.
Anyway
When lag was bad I used to have to go by the sounds, because the animations wouldn't sync with the actual strikes, the sounds seemed to be much better synched even on bad lag days.
So... while I'm here, anybody want some of this [Greater Box of Popcorn]?
----
... What, Sharp? You wanted me to provide something productive to the thread? Fine.
Prepatch Orcus's semi-artificial difficulty, postpatch Orcus' tickles, either way, Orcus is tankable with the right knowledge. The only thing this changes is that CN is more forgiving for newer tanks.
The boss at the end of eSOT hits harder than Orcus now. It's a disgrace.
Replace him with the Stay Puff Marshallow Man and I'll call that even.
Be careful what you wish for, you might just get it.
>
> Well, I suppose this is a valid point, however, I feel like CN filled an important niche that is now missing.
Started using the FBI to train tanks instead of orcus.
Pros:
The hill ascent and Hati are good tests of threat maintenance, shield timing and positioning/facing.
Cons:
1) Too dependent on smart play of teammates. If a GWF goes mooooaar with a green tank it is a wipe. Orcus difficulty for the tank was largely independent of what teammates were doing
2)Too long (for unskilled team) for quick training.
I am Took.
"Full plate and packing steel" in NW since 2013.
I tanked Orcus with my GF when he was 2.3k IL and had rank 8 bondings. It was pretty hard, but doable with good team and coordination.
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However increasing the boss HP can't be a good reason alone for 'making the fight easier' for low IL players.
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