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VJ, BoV, CoP, EoL statistical discoveries and analysis.

veywiil#8685 veywiil Member Posts: 208 Arc User
edited April 2017 in The Citadel
Things to know before we get started:


There's going to be math, statistics and averages, all that stuff. I'll have a tl;dr at the end.

I do a bunch of estimating due to small sample sizes. Do forgive me, I'd rather have this seen so others can help confirm this, rather than waiting a long time to get very large sample sizes myself.

This is going to be with sample size of 5 minutes for a test. I have repeated some core tests upon which I base my assumptions. These results may not be correct due to the small sample size, but it gives us an idea.

Acronyms:
VJ: Vengeful Judge
BoV: Bond of Virtue
EoL: Echoes of Light
CoP: Circle of Power
TW: Templar's Wrath
OP: Oathbound Paladin
Bond of Virtue:

It attempts to proc Vengful Judge once per second. How do I know that? See the Echoes of Light and Oddities section.
Standing by yourself: 28 procs in 5 minutes. Roughly a 10.71% chance, I'm assuming this should be 10%, that would make sense 10% chance on our capstone, and this would align with other numbers from the feats tree. I understand 10% may not be right, but it is close enough for me to perform analysis on. I ran this test multiple times, and 28 seemed to be the average anyway, my lowest test run was 20.

Standing with a companion, nothing else around: 31 in 5 minutes with a normal, non augment companion.

Standing with a companion and 1 party member with their companion out: Procs 29 times.

Standing with 1 party member, no companions: Procs 28 times in 5 minutes.

Summary: It appears that allies make virtually no difference in proc rate, I would expect double the proc's if the number were to increase, I saw no dramatic difference, so calling this as BoV only self proc's on yourself for the purposes of casting the encounter power.


Circle of Power:

Before we start here, things got to a whole new level of weird while testing this. It looks like VJ was being cast by the player on the CoP. Except for the initial cast (which also has a chance to proc Vengeful Judge). I had to some assumptions here, please try to follow. I understand I'm 'playing with numbers' a little, but it makes sense given the context.

By myself, Circle of power procced 160 times in 5 minutes. 4 times on myself (Because of the actual casting of the ability.) and 156 times on the Circle of Power. This was tested with a 12 second Cooldown on CoP.

With a companion, Circle of power procced 161 times in 5 minutes. 3 times on myself (Because of the actual casting of the ability.) and 158 times on the Circle of Power. This was tested with a 12 second Cooldown on CoP. No difference.


So how fast does CoP refresh? I'm doing this math in reverse, but bare with my logic for a second. I know 160 proc is correct. The 10% I calculated is probably the same from the capstone, and NOT different depending on the encounter power used. So taking the 160 and 10%, what can we say? We have 160 CoP procs at 10%, so 160 / 0.1 = ESTIMATED 1600 ticks from these numbers. Does this make sense? Well kind of.

We have 300 seconds in 5 minutes... If we take the 1600 estimated ticks and divide by the 300 seconds we get 5.33 repeating. So each second we are getting 5.33 attempted proc's of VJ. This doesn't make sense though, how can we have .33 ticks? What would make more sense? After all we are doing the math backwards. There's a better assumption we can make, we know we are close because the 10% should be right. I was taking into account the intial proc's which is not correct, so let's exclude those. At the same time let's assume my proc's of CoP were slightly above average given the sample size was not perfectly on point, what would make alot more sense for an interval?

Doing the math again taking these into account. 150 CoP procs * 10% chance of VJ on each proc = 1500 ticks. 1500 ticks total/300 seconds = 5 procs per second. Does 5 procs per second make sense? Yes, that would be an interval of 200ms, which is a round number, and makes alot more sense. 200ms would also make sense given that CoP needs to constantly check if you are still inside to 'reapply' the buff. After all you can leave the circle and come back, you would expect the buff to reapply upon re-entering.

Thanks to help testing by @rubytrue, we know that CoP doesn't stack, both visually and functionally. Vengeful Judge will only apply on the caster of the CoP, and nothing else. With this being said if you are going Prot path there is almost no reason to NOT take CoP from these discoveries. You are gaining an incredible amount of divine call on average to miss taking this, it's also increasing your dr and damage which gives you alot more survivability through TW.


Echoes of Light and Oddities:

Standing by yourself nothing around, using Oath strike for 5 minutes with Bond of Virtue on: This was with only 4/5 in EoL. I got 15 Procs of EoL during this time.

I had Bond of Virtue on, and this allowed me to test how fast Bond of Virtue actually refires, and it's once per second, as it would 'eat' the EoL buff within next second.

I noticed during testing that I had 1 specific case where EoL procced twice in the same second. And it was not just a graphical bug, ACT recorded this as well. What is odd that Vengeful Judge from the 6.67% chance of proccing on Bond of Virtue procced EXACTLY inbetween these 2 visually. This may not be connected and I haven't reproduced it a second time.

The times in between the proccing of EoL is an avg of:
Not counting Duplicate Fire: 22.15 Seconds inbetween procs at 4/5.
Counting duplicate Fire: 20.58 Seconds inbetween procs at 4/5.

If you are curious here are the delays, starting at the bottom of the log moving up.: 16, 19, 32, 23, 44, 17, 19, 0, 17, 23, 22, 19, 19, 18

7:29:01 PM Echoes of Light GrantPower No Damage False None False
7:28:43 PM Echoes of Light GrantPower No Damage False None False
7:28:24 PM Echoes of Light GrantPower No Damage False None False
7:28:05 PM Echoes of Light GrantPower No Damage False None False
7:27:46 PM Echoes of Light GrantPower No Damage False None False
7:27:23 PM Echoes of Light GrantPower No Damage False None False
7:27:06 PM Echoes of Light GrantPower No Damage False None False
7:27:06 PM Echoes of Light GrantPower No Damage False None False
7:26:47 PM Echoes of Light GrantPower No Damage False None False
7:26:30 PM Echoes of Light GrantPower No Damage False None False
7:25:46 PM Echoes of Light GrantPower No Damage False None False
7:25:23 PM Echoes of Light GrantPower No Damage False None False
7:24:51 PM Echoes of Light GrantPower No Damage False None False
7:24:32 PM Echoes of Light GrantPower No Damage False None False
7:24:16 PM Echoes of Light GrantPower No Damage False None False


tl;dr - The section you all want to get to.

If you want more in depth on some of this, go to the correct section.

Echoes of Light: Can be procced by attacking air with the same chance as hitting something. Indeed has a 15 second cooldown. Can have immediate duplicate Procs for some yet unknown reason...

Bond of Virtue: Looks toggleable, but is so much more. This power is actually self casting itself every second. This can auto-consume EoL on you. Proc's Vengeful Judge (fills your tab meter up) on every 'refresh'.

Circle of Power: Can Proc Vengeful Judge every 200ms. Every attempted refresh of the buff will count as the use of an encounter power. This will on avg proc it one every other second. No reason to NOT take this on a prot OP. It's not that great for a Dev OP if your going healadin. Sable and me were averaging roughly 3 procs of VJ in 4 seconds of CoP, although that is slightly higher than the curve would suggest.

Vengeful Judge: Has a 10% chance of Proccing from all encounter powers. Encounter powers that do self refreshing can proc it more than once. It has no Internal Cooldown. It can proc as much as it wants, but it often won't proc alot due to it's trigger.

Other:

Sable ShadowStorm @rubytrue - Helped with some testing numbers. It was also very nice to have someone to bounce these findings off of realtime.

Feel free to contact me in game about this. @veywiil#8685
I'm a theorycrafter, that means I can answer fairly deep questions with scientific theory, mathematical proof, and some guessing. Ask me stuff!

Comments

  • rubytruerubytrue Member Posts: 556 Arc User
    If you get a chance, team up with @veywiil#8685; he's good folk. We've talked about trying to form an all DevOP party, so if you're interested, let one of us know.

    As for the results, a big thank you goes out to @veywiil#8685 for all the work he did; he, I think, uncovered some pretty interesting things, most notably, the interactions between CoP and the Justice capstone, Vengeful Judge. Even though it was tested by DevOPs, the rapid proccing of Vengeful Judge should work for ProtOPs as well. We theorized that it was the flag for improving damage componant of CoP that being triggered so quickly. The reasoning behind this is twofold:

    1) We would test CoP under different conditions, including having an ally in the CoP radius; when this happened, only the caster would have Vengeful Judge Proc. Both allies would have the bonus healing component appear on our status bar, but only the caster would have the bonus damage component of CoP appear on their status bar.

    2) It would make sense that the bonus damage component of CoP rapidly trigger as the power has to continually check to see if another power/attack would be affected throughout the duration of the power.

    As @veywiil#8685 noted above, if you are a ProtOP, CoP really should become a "must have" power. It rapidly procs Vengeful Judge--and when you see it procced, you should hit tab--resulting in, for all intents and purposes, a perma 35% boost to both your damage and recharge (you have to keep hitting tab at least every ten seconds whenever Vengeful Judge Procs, but since one of your encounter powers can refill your Divine Call bar under Judge, it is a non-issue).

    As a DevOP, you can get the same bonus, but it becomes a bit unwieldy since, at least for me, my DevOP moves around the battlefield a lot. I plan on trying it out some more to see if I can adapt my playstyle around it.

  • oggycz#5356 oggycz Member Posts: 182 Arc User
    rubytrue said:

    If you get a chance, team up with @veywiil#8685; he's good folk. We've talked about trying to form an all DevOP party, so if you're interested, let one of us know.

    It would be nice, count me in.

    Svatá Prdelka
    game - Human/real life - ???
    OP 18k+ Devotion/Justice - Light
  • armadeonxarmadeonx Member Posts: 4,887 Arc User
    That's an interesting discovery on CoP and VJ, I'm on XBox but I'll have a play around and get a feel for how it boosts divine call - I'll report back :smile:
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  • rubytruerubytrue Member Posts: 556 Arc User
    armadeonx said:

    That's an interesting discovery on CoP and VJ, I'm on XBox but I'll have a play around and get a feel for how it boosts divine call - I'll report back :smile:

    What it boosts is the proc rate for Vengeful Judge; tabbing after Vengeful Judge procs Judge which boosts recovery and damage by 35% and lets the next Encounter power (often times CoP itself due to the constant damage bonus checks) refill a charge of Divine Call.
  • isaintify1isaintify1 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 414 Arc User
    rubytrue said:

    If you get a chance, team up with @veywiil#8685; he's good folk. We've talked about trying to form an all DevOP party, so if you're interested, let one of us know.

    As for the results, a big thank you goes out to @veywiil#8685 for all the work he did; he, I think, uncovered some pretty interesting things, most notably, the interactions between CoP and the Justice capstone, Vengeful Judge. Even though it was tested by DevOPs, the rapid proccing of Vengeful Judge should work for ProtOPs as well. We theorized that it was the flag for improving damage componant of CoP that being triggered so quickly. The reasoning behind this is twofold:

    1) We would test CoP under different conditions, including having an ally in the CoP radius; when this happened, only the caster would have Vengeful Judge Proc. Both allies would have the bonus healing component appear on our status bar, but only the caster would have the bonus damage component of CoP appear on their status bar.

    2) It would make sense that the bonus damage component of CoP rapidly trigger as the power has to continually check to see if another power/attack would be affected throughout the duration of the power.

    As @veywiil#8685 noted above, if you are a ProtOP, CoP really should become a "must have" power. It rapidly procs Vengeful Judge--and when you see it procced, you should hit tab--resulting in, for all intents and purposes, a perma 35% boost to both your damage and recharge (you have to keep hitting tab at least every ten seconds whenever Vengeful Judge Procs, but since one of your encounter powers can refill your Divine Call bar under Judge, it is a non-issue).

    As a DevOP, you can get the same bonus, but it becomes a bit unwieldy since, at least for me, my DevOP moves around the battlefield a lot. I plan on trying it out some more to see if I can adapt my playstyle around it.

    I would be interested in doing a run with you all sometime in a healadin dungeon run :P I feel like we could break the game somehow haha. My handle is @isaintify1 feel free to hit me up.
  • majorcharvenakmajorcharvenak Member Posts: 783 Arc User
    Fantastic analysis guys and thanks much for the testing and sharing. That all Dev OP party sounds like it will be a blast. Let us know if you can stop time with that many Dev OPs in a group. :P


    -Shia-

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  • oggycz#5356 oggycz Member Posts: 182 Arc User
    edited April 2017

    Fantastic analysis guys and thanks much for the testing and sharing. That all Dev OP party sounds like it will be a blast. Let us know if you can stop time with that many Dev OPs in a group. :P


    -Shia-

    Shiarrael t'Charvon (STO)
    Sereska Miliskeera (NW)

    We did 5 healadins run. It was fun, but lag was brutal. I had combat tracker running, and I will post results.
    Svatá Prdelka
    game - Human/real life - ???
    OP 18k+ Devotion/Justice - Light
  • trzebiat#2067 trzebiat Member Posts: 372 Arc User

    Bond of Virtue: Looks toggleable, but is so much more. This power is actually self casting itself every second. This can auto-consume EoL on you. Proc's Vengeful Judge (fills your tab meter up) on every 'refresh'.

    Circle of Power: Can Proc Vengeful Judge every 200ms. Every attempted refresh of the buff will count as the use of an encounter power. This will on avg proc it one every other second. No reason to NOT take this on a prot OP. It's not that great for a Dev OP if your going healadin. Sable and me were averaging roughly 3 procs of VJ in 4 seconds of CoP, although that is slightly higher than the curve would suggest.

    If it is self casting and counts as encounter use would it work and how good with Wild Hunt Rider companion (On encounter use - 2/3/5% chance to increase damage by 10% for 5 seconds)?
  • veywiil#8685 veywiil Member Posts: 208 Arc User


    If it is self casting and counts as encounter use would it work and how good with Wild Hunt Rider companion (On encounter use - 2/3/5% chance to increase damage by 10% for 5 seconds)?

    Unsure, I haven't done much testing, but from the number I was seeing, it would Proc HALF as often as the numbers as above if it's 5%. For 2.5% it would be 1/4 as often. If it even procs at all, although TBH i see no reason why it wouldn't given the current state of those skills.

    If you send me one, I'll test it, IDK what else to say. /shrug
    I'm a theorycrafter, that means I can answer fairly deep questions with scientific theory, mathematical proof, and some guessing. Ask me stuff!
  • veywiil#8685 veywiil Member Posts: 208 Arc User
    Thanks to @michaelrn1982 we learned that the CoP thing only works outside of combat for some reason. My oversight for not testing in combat. I theorize this has something to do with VJ being cast on CoP and not yourself. I am unsure though.
    I'm a theorycrafter, that means I can answer fairly deep questions with scientific theory, mathematical proof, and some guessing. Ask me stuff!
  • michaelrn1982michaelrn1982 Member Posts: 89 Arc User
    I really loved the idea of having a very fast Divine Call Regen. I still think you're on to something, just need to define what that something is.

    I would like to test another OP's CoP and see how it impacts combat. Perhaps a few runs tonight or sometime this weekend could give us some data or at least fully test the synergy between Devo and Prot.
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  • rubytruerubytrue Member Posts: 556 Arc User

    I really loved the idea of having a very fast Divine Call Regen. I still think you're on to something, just need to define what that something is.

    I would like to test another OP's CoP and see how it impacts combat. Perhaps a few runs tonight or sometime this weekend could give us some data or at least fully test the synergy between Devo and Prot.

    ProtOPs are like oxygen to DevOPs fire. I personally think a mixture of Prot and Dev OPs is optimal (especially since you are focusing on debuffing).
  • hawkblaze1954#5209 hawkblaze1954 Member Posts: 54 Arc User
    edited April 2017
    Can anyone please test on preview if the mirage set illusions work with Dev OP mechanics?

    Would the mirage set work with proccing prism/healing warmth/burning guidance etc,etc..? Guessing that these entities are classed as "allies", although heard some reports that the die quick so? Kinda hesitant to diverge from acquiring the Fey set to test this

    Easy content and soloing would definitely be a lot worse than fey. I was thinking of 3-5 man group content. A 10 second up time (of 30 seconds) of 3 "illusions" might trigger proccing prism/healing warmth/burning guidance etc,etc..? resulting in more DPS and healing? Oh also forgot to throw in bond of virtue as well.


  • veywiil#8685 veywiil Member Posts: 208 Arc User

    Can anyone please test on preview if the mirage set illusions work with Dev OP mechanics?

    I'll put it on the to do list, along with everything else... ETA is about a month out, before the big post should appear detailing all main Devotion OP mechanics. From AoC to BoV, and just about anything else you can think of that is a big deal for the interactions. If you want it quicker you are either welcome to test yourself or see who else you can con into doing it.
    I'm a theorycrafter, that means I can answer fairly deep questions with scientific theory, mathematical proof, and some guessing. Ask me stuff!
  • hawkblaze1954#5209 hawkblaze1954 Member Posts: 54 Arc User
    I would love to but i'm a poor Xbox player with a broken laptop :(. Considering getting a machine so i can play with preview and get info before console release (and experience all those bugs PC players have to deal with )
  • hawkblaze1954#5209 hawkblaze1954 Member Posts: 54 Arc User
    Currently unlocked the offhand and now need the mainhand for the mirage set. Then I will proceed to unlock the Fey set.
    I'm thinking once loadouts arrive on Xbox, to have the fey with plaguefire for solo and 3 man dungeons.
    The other loadout to have the mirage set with holy avenger for 10/25 group content. So its more likely someone else will have plaguefire and the holy avenger will provide damage resistance, although it has a 15 second uptime for 45 seconds. Mirage may work with procs as there are 3 illusion allies.
  • rubytruerubytrue Member Posts: 556 Arc User
    edited May 2017

    Currently unlocked the offhand and now need the mainhand for the mirage set. Then I will proceed to unlock the Fey set.
    I'm thinking once loadouts arrive on Xbox, to have the fey with plaguefire for solo and 3 man dungeons.
    The other loadout to have the mirage set with holy avenger for 10/25 group content. So its more likely someone else will have plaguefire and the holy avenger will provide damage resistance, although it has a 15 second uptime for 45 seconds. Mirage may work with procs as there are 3 illusion allies.

    I'd be real interested in finding out if the mirage set procs BG/HW (and AoC) on the illusions...does anyone know? If they do, it would be the set to get for a DevOP. With your companion, that would essentially be four pets to proc your primary sources of damage.

    If anyone has the mirage set and can test this out, please let us know.

    I'd still keep Plaguefire over Holy Avenger; on any OP, Plaguefire is simply awesome. Things melt so fast; you don't need a lot of temp damage resistance if everything is dead.
  • hawkblaze1954#5209 hawkblaze1954 Member Posts: 54 Arc User
    edited May 2017
    Being on Xbox I guess I would be able to test this once i get the mainhand and restore both weapons. I think I should be able to test burning guidance soloing with no companion summoned fighting in the middle of nowhere on my lonesome (thinking stronghold mobs). Haven't unlocked healing warmth but I guess it works with the same mechanics as burning guidance "5% per ally, on an attempted heal"

    Trans Holy Avenger was thinking of OTT overkill "on each swing to improve your allies damage resistance by 20% while healing them for 15 seconds. The amount of damage and healing is scaled to your weapon. Any blow you land during this time will do 7.5% more radiant damage, The amount of damage and healing is scaled to your weapon. This effect can only activate every 45 seconds."
  • hawkblaze1954#5209 hawkblaze1954 Member Posts: 54 Arc User
    Well with limited testing as a xbox player, these illusions die with three hits from river district mobs or 1 shotted in aoe's.
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