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Trickster Rogue Class Balance Suggestions

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  • trgluestickztrgluestickz Member Posts: 1,130 Arc User
    edited May 2017
    blur#5900 said:


    Being invisible and fast is the reason why i think it should not be permanent. Others are fast but not invisible. If it would be permanent i would rather suggest a decrease in current number than increase, 10%, down from 15%. Stun is a complication because TR has no stuns so far and needs further adjustments. Being Dazed is not same as being Stunned. Dazed targets can move out of Smoke Bomb while stunned ones cant. Current extendable daze is indeed complicated but it is already there, it requires no work because its already made.

    @blur

    Being invisible and fast is a non issue in pvp. A 15% increase isn't going to throw anything off in pvp, it won't even make scoundrel the best build choice for TR speed builds.

    All of the few TRs who have run speed builds in pvp I have heard of were sabotuers. This is because even if the scoundrel 15% speed bonus was permanant, sabotuers, are still the better choice for speed builds because they have a much easier time maintaining sneak attack.
    This means, sabotuers are currently better at being both invisible and fast (your consern) than scoundrels would be under my sugestion.

    If you weigh the consept of a permanant scoundrel speed bonus against sabotuer, the trade off is clear and fair.
    If you take scoundrel and it has a 15% permanant speed bonus, you can be faster without temporary speed mechanics like sneak attack but you in exchange are disadvantaged when it comes to trying to do the sabotuer thing of going permastealth to maintain sneak attack all the time. If you go sabotuer, you have a really easy time keeping up sneak attack and are only 15% slower than what a scoundrel can reach in stealth. Its possible to build a scoundrel with a lot of stealth but its still not practical to try to make it a true permastealther so they still will not preform as good as a sabotuer speed build.

    You aren't against sneak attack, an ability that again, makes you both invisible and fast so again, what's the issue?

    Other classes that are fast also have strong tactical abilities, take GFs for example, they can be both fast and have an 180 degree sheild. SWs can stack stamina and abuse the HAMSTER out of shadowstep, they are immune to ccs and damage while shadowstepping. Both of these builds while strong are not more op than their non speedy counterparts, same goes for TR.

    ----------------

    As for leaving the scullcracker daze as is, this is a capstone feat, if anything this should be on the priority list durring a rework. If you really feel the need to reduce the list size that badly, drop something less essential than parts of a capstone change. You also admitted yourself that you would be happy if 10% of the sugestions we are making go through so according to your own logic, the devs will wittle out some stuff either way.
    Bottomline, I don't think advocating for lower quality fixes is a great solution, the devs if they need to trim things they will trim things of their own accord regardless of what we say.

    One thing you could do is sugest more than one version of the scullcracker fix like you did with SOD and stealth. For SOD and Stealth, you had both the more complex fix and the simplified fix listed i nthe compilation thread in case your first sugestion was too difficult.
    You could also try setting up a seperate category in your post that is a priority list and then put all the other good compiled ideas from this thread into a seperate category. That might work better anyway since according to you, the list is already too long.

    Even if more non dazing TR powers became viable post rework, it is likely that scoundrel will not be using many of them. They will likely stick with most powers that already can daze because of low blows and because its a natural fit for the build.
    This means that the daze for scullcracker is even more useless than I previously thought.

    Changing the trigger of scullcracker to be "the next attack you make procs scullcracker" instead of "the next ecounter you hit with procs scullcracker" while its not identicle to the other 2 capstones, I don't think we should cut out a viable solution for OCD reasons. The critical difference between the encounter trigger for the other 2 capstones and scullcracker is that the encounter trigger works well with the other two capstones but it doesn't for scullcracker.

    The other option I presented was changing scullcracker's daze to a stun, if you are still agaisnt my first sugestion, then this second sugestion would also work.
    I am well aware of the difference between a stun and a daze, that's why I sugested switching the daze to a stun in the first place. A stun remains useful when it overlaps with a daze, unlike 2 dazes. That's also why I said that if switched to a stun, scullcracker's CC effect should be shorter than the current daze since a stun is more powerful.

    Also, you are incorrect about the TR class not having any stun powers, impact shot is a stun.
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  • trgluestickztrgluestickz Member Posts: 1,130 Arc User
    blur#5900 said:

    @rustlord When it comes to average players a simplification is all they need and Stealth severity would help them more than it would help superstars. ArPen and piercing damage is a way which wont affect PvE. If Razor Action gets fixed or changed to as suggested i guess that Bloodbath spamming would not be really effective anymore(unless there is something else except RA involved), also if SE is toned down encounters indeed need a buff. Sure the damage focused encounters with additional piercing damage would be nice but i dont see why add piercing damage to utility focused encounters.

    @trgluestickz What exactly is the problem with CB's damage reduction % ?

    Ask @rustlord for the details, the quote from @rustlord is all I have on it so far so I don't know what the exact number for CB's damage reduction is.
    --
    PVP Rogue,
    --[----- "Your friendly neighborhood spawn of Satan." -----]--
    ----------------------------------------------------------------
    Main Character: Hurricane Marigolds (Rogue WK & Assassin)
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  • rustlordrustlord Member Posts: 1,454 Arc User
    blur#5900 said:

    Sure the damage focused encounters with additional piercing damage would be nice but i dont see why add piercing damage to utility focused encounters.

    Not sure if you get what I'm saying, or if I get what you're saying, but I'm not in favor of adding piercing damage on anything else at this point. Piercing is uranium in PvP... if there is a way for it to be exploited, it will. Point being, RA's piercing base damage is 5K and see how I've turned that to my evil benefit!

    Just to be clear on my point utility powers that are next to useless need a damage buff. Since you're blocking a buff on damage-focused encounters already, then why are you also blocking a buff to utilities? I know it's absurd that utils will be as strong as dps encounters, but right now utils hit for less than at will damage. Truthfully, TR just needs a base damage increase across the board. That is easier to implement. All of this stealth crit severity changes and whatnot are just colorful thinking that's already made things so much more complicated to be honest.
  • rustlordrustlord Member Posts: 1,454 Arc User
    edited May 2017
    CB DEBUFF = DAMAGE / (1 + 1.2 + other sources );
    Max rank is about 54.54% less

    * 1.2 means 120% if maxed
    * Other sources can be Fey, etc
  • rustlordrustlord Member Posts: 1,454 Arc User
    edited May 2017
    A final word on balancing TR primarily for PvE as @blur appears to be saying -

    There are about a dozen things said here that I can maybe exploit in a PvP build, and if I can others will; The crying in PvP is the main source of all the nerfs, TR didn't get nerfed because it was "too strong" in PvE ever. So with changes including but not limited to stealth toggle, critical severity, shadow of demise, duelist flurry, PIERCING, you're basically shooting yourself in the foot.

    what it needs to be is fix bugs, increase physical damage, and everything else is nice to have
  • demonmongerdemonmonger Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 3,350 Arc User
    edited May 2017
    > All of the few TRs who have run speed builds in pvp I have heard of were sabotuers. This is because even if the scoundrel 15% speed bonus was permanant, sabotuers, are still the better choice for speed builds because they have a much easier time maintaining sneak attack.
    > This means, sabotuers are currently better at being both invisible and fast (your consern) than scoundrels would be under my sugestion.
    >
    > If you weigh the consept of a permanant scoundrel speed bonus against sabotuer, the trade off is clear and fair.
    > If you take scoundrel and it has a 15% permanant speed bonus, you can be faster without temporary speed mechanics like sneak attack but you in exchange are disadvantaged when it comes to trying to do the sabotuer thing of going permastealth to maintain sneak attack all the time. If you go sabotuer, you have a really easy time keeping up sneak attack and are only 15% slower than what a scoundrel can reach in stealth. Its possible to build a scoundrel with a lot of stealth but its still not practical to try to make it a true permastealther so they still will not preform as good as a sabotuer speed build.
    >
    > You aren't against sneak attack, an ability that again, makes you both invisible and fast so again, what's the issue?
    >
    >

    Scoundrel tr are the best speed builds that the game has @blurfishx
    To maximize this stealth just take the feats that refill stealth on dodge roll, add bonus stealth meter, And use bait and switch plus shadow strike.. This is better than the sab build for speed.
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  • blur#5900 blur Member Posts: 490 Arc User
    edited May 2017
    @trgluestickz
    All im trying is too keep some balance, trying to prevent new terminator model T-1000 to be born. I dont think one class should have it all. I know it makes more sense for light geared class as TR to be fast than for heavy geared, shield wielding GF to be a sprinter but thats how the game was designed. We have stealth, we have highest deflect severity, we could be fastest runners out there and all thats left is to increase our damage resistance to be tanky and there it is, the perfect killing machine. There needs to be a trade off, one class excels in some abilities, other classes excel in other abilities. Anyway we are arguing too much about something which isnt that important, so i wont pursue this speed matter anymore just try to keep some balance.

    Skullcracker daze/stun is the same problem, too much debating over basically nothing. How does this help in PvE? It doesnt, its small improvement in PvP, but ok lets change it to stun to avoid wasting more time on this. Trigger different than encounter, sure makes sense, even tho trigger on any attack is too easy imo. Try to give a final tooltip of the new Skullcracker.

    Indeed, Impact shot is a stun.

    @rustlord
    If you think you can exploit some of the suggestions let us know to prevent it before it happens.
    I am against base damage increase when it comes to 3 encounters, dazing strike, lashing blade and smoke bomb. Sure dazing and lashing can have the piercing damage part added to them to be more effective in PvP but smoke should not, it is too good.
    How do you plan to exploit dazing and lashing with piercing damage? Utility encounters are indeed weaker than atwills, our atwills are highest source of damage, at least in PvE. Piercing damage for utilities as well it is, even base damage increase is fine but keep them weaker than damage focused encounters. Try to give final tooltip for reworked utilities.
    You say that all TR needs is overall base damage increase. That could be something if nothing else gets touched but considering that more things will get improved this is a no go for smoke, dazing, lashing.

    So, the damage reduction from CB is 54.54% instead 120% ? Or i didnt understand it. What number is it supposed to be?


    I wont play the judge, what is priority and what not it is up to devs to decide anyway. From PvE point of view we know what the priorities are better than the devs, as @archangelzorak01 said: "fundamental disconnect between the people who play the game and the people who make the game". I am sure the PvP community knows the priorities better than the devs as well due to same reason. I say we should agree about the priorities and let devs know what they are instead letting them choose.

    Improvements to all abilities are welcome. Problem is balance between PvE and PvP. In my opinion Arpen and Piercing damage are improvements which wont affect PvE, base damage increase is fine as well but not for the trio (dazing, lashing, smoke).
    image
  • rustlordrustlord Member Posts: 1,454 Arc User
    Thats right about CB; 54 is the actual number iirc, 120 is the tooltip, however this is very misleading. This was first brought to discussion when they first added 4pt powers.

    Agreed about dazing lashing and smoke.

    Still unconvinced about piercing. I would rather have more arpen from ability rolls or feats than have new sources of piercing. I challenge pvers to pvp and meet a top combat HR and you will see the problem with % based piercing on powers and at wills. in fact cw has a little known semi piercing interaction goin on though Im not really qualified to tell specifics. at some point i believe sw also had piercing, in all instances piercing ended up creating op builds


    therefore yes i stand by saying a lot of these proposals can stack together and lead a way for any kind of piercing to be abused. i have already mentioned two possibilities with shocking (1) and oppressive darkness (2). right now the scoundrel tree suffers from having its cc neutered, but changing those in a wrong way could easily bring back mod 5 scoundrel days. @morenthar knows more as i didnt get to play taht build. at one time, i created a powerstacking wk for the purpose of one shotting people with disheartening, this post nerf, sometime around mod 7 and to an extent it works. what im really saying is that the unpredictable nature of these class reworks opens up a lot of abusive combos, meanwhile not improving the normalized performance of the class in pvp

    basically yes there may be more choises of broken op builds, but we'll just go thru them like we did before, run fotm for a month till nerf, then move to the next glitch. recall knife throwing abuse with shadowy opp. wont removing stealth consume on at will use allow you to spam SO all over again.

    I dont like to be remembered as the guy who knows all the glitch, but I believe its up to us to report anything we find that is questionable at best
  • rustlordrustlord Member Posts: 1,454 Arc User
    edited May 2017
    However don't get me wrong, maybe a little late to follow up but I wanted to say --

    Just because these things can be exploited does not mean they will be overpowered. Overpowered in PvP is wholly relative to how other classes perform, and for right now "TR is at the bottom of the food chain" a quote from a good friend top PVPER not naming names!

    One more thing, I don't believe there is any such thing as "too strong for PvE" @blur. GWF/CW/TR/HR/SW are all dps classes, it's always been a race so if TR were to unintentionally take the lead by a good mile, why the hell not!
  • trgluestickztrgluestickz Member Posts: 1,130 Arc User
    edited May 2017

    > All of the few TRs who have run speed builds in pvp I have heard of were sabotuers. This is because even if the scoundrel 15% speed bonus was permanant, sabotuers, are still the better choice for speed builds because they have a much easier time maintaining sneak attack.

    > This means, sabotuers are currently better at being both invisible and fast (your consern) than scoundrels would be under my sugestion.

    >

    > If you weigh the consept of a permanant scoundrel speed bonus against sabotuer, the trade off is clear and fair.

    > If you take scoundrel and it has a 15% permanant speed bonus, you can be faster without temporary speed mechanics like sneak attack but you in exchange are disadvantaged when it comes to trying to do the sabotuer thing of going permastealth to maintain sneak attack all the time. If you go sabotuer, you have a really easy time keeping up sneak attack and are only 15% slower than what a scoundrel can reach in stealth. Its possible to build a scoundrel with a lot of stealth but its still not practical to try to make it a true permastealther so they still will not preform as good as a sabotuer speed build.

    >

    > You aren't against sneak attack, an ability that again, makes you both invisible and fast so again, what's the issue?

    >

    >



    Scoundrel tr are the best speed builds that the game has @blurfishx

    To maximize this stealth just take the feats that refill stealth on dodge roll, add bonus stealth meter, And use bait and switch plus shadow strike.. This is better than the sab build for speed.

    That cannot be true, scoundrel's speed bonus is not up in combat most of the time right now. Its good for the inbetween moments where you are going between platforms or moving fast in dungeons inbetween mobs. if you used an encounter power within the last 15 seconds, you don't have the scoundrel speed boost.

    While you can build a scoundrel to be close to perma, there is no clear reason right now to do it over sabotuer when sabotuer is much more efficent at building for stealth. Even under my sugested improvement, sabotuer would still be slightly better for it but scoudnrel would catch up some. You can take the 2 cooldown feats from sabotuer and still be mostly scoundrel but you don't get the sabotuer stealth refills. Whether you agree or not, the difference between sabotuer and scoundrel's potential for speed builds under my sugestion is small enough that it doesn't really matter who is slightly better or not, it still would not harm pvp.

    Also, your handle summon appears to have messed up. It says blurfish.
    Post edited by trgluestickz on
    --
    PVP Rogue,
    --[----- "Your friendly neighborhood spawn of Satan." -----]--
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  • trgluestickztrgluestickz Member Posts: 1,130 Arc User
    edited May 2017
    blur#5900 said:

    @trgluestickz
    All im trying is too keep some balance, trying to prevent new terminator model T-1000 to be born. I dont think one class should have it all. I know it makes more sense for light geared class as TR to be fast than for heavy geared, shield wielding GF to be a sprinter but thats how the game was designed. We have stealth, we have highest deflect severity, we could be fastest runners out there and all thats left is to increase our damage resistance to be tanky and there it is, the perfect killing machine. There needs to be a trade off, one class excels in some abilities, other classes excel in other abilities. Anyway we are arguing too much about something which isnt that important, so i wont pursue this speed matter anymore just try to keep some balance.

    Skullcracker daze/stun is the same problem, too much debating over basically nothing. How does this help in PvE? It doesnt, its small improvement in PvP, but ok lets change it to stun to avoid wasting more time on this. Trigger different than encounter, sure makes sense, even tho trigger on any attack is too easy imo. Try to give a final tooltip of the new Skullcracker.

    Indeed, Impact shot is a stun.

    I'm not sure if you mean for both my trigger rewrite and stun sugestion to be implemented or were just following up on my mention of the trigger rewrite. You won't need to bother with the trigger rewrite since we are going with the stun idea. You could but there isn't a reason to do both.
    --
    PVP Rogue,
    --[----- "Your friendly neighborhood spawn of Satan." -----]--
    ----------------------------------------------------------------
    Main Character: Hurricane Marigolds (Rogue WK & Assassin)
    Ingame Handle: trgluestickz
    Discord Name: Hurricane🌀Marigolds#2563
    Guilds: She Looked LVL 18 & Essence of Aggression
    Alliances: Imperium & Order of the Silent Shroud
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  • trgluestickztrgluestickz Member Posts: 1,130 Arc User
    edited May 2017
    rustlord said:

    Thats right about CB; 54 is the actual number iirc, 120 is the tooltip, however this is very misleading. This was first brought to discussion when they first added 4pt powers.

    Agreed about dazing lashing and smoke.

    Still unconvinced about piercing. I would rather have more arpen from ability rolls or feats than have new sources of piercing. I challenge pvers to pvp and meet a top combat HR and you will see the problem with % based piercing on powers and at wills. in fact cw has a little known semi piercing interaction goin on though Im not really qualified to tell specifics. at some point i believe sw also had piercing, in all instances piercing ended up creating op builds


    therefore yes i stand by saying a lot of these proposals can stack together and lead a way for any kind of piercing to be abused. i have already mentioned two possibilities with shocking (1) and oppressive darkness (2). right now the scoundrel tree suffers from having its cc neutered, but changing those in a wrong way could easily bring back mod 5 scoundrel days. @morenthar knows more as i didnt get to play taht build. at one time, i created a powerstacking wk for the purpose of one shotting people with disheartening, this post nerf, sometime around mod 7 and to an extent it works. what im really saying is that the unpredictable nature of these class reworks opens up a lot of abusive combos, meanwhile not improving the normalized performance of the class in pvp

    basically yes there may be more choises of broken op builds, but we'll just go thru them like we did before, run fotm for a month till nerf, then move to the next glitch. recall knife throwing abuse with shadowy opp. wont removing stealth consume on at will use allow you to spam SO all over again.

    I dont like to be remembered as the guy who knows all the glitch, but I believe its up to us to report anything we find that is questionable at best

    If the amount of piercing damage added to our powers was small enough, I can see it being viable without it being too much if not a lot else was buffed. With the other sugestions in the complilation thread, piercing damage is more risky to add onto powers. Oppressive darkness as you mentioned is to be buffed under our sugestions too so there likely won't be a need to add piercing to encounters on top of piercing from opressive darkness.

    I am not against a base physical damage increase for TRs as an option though depending on the size, it may end up too powerful when combined with the other sugestions in the compilation thread. If the damage increase was small enough, it would likely be fine on top of some of the other buffs.
    Post edited by trgluestickz on
    --
    PVP Rogue,
    --[----- "Your friendly neighborhood spawn of Satan." -----]--
    ----------------------------------------------------------------
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  • blur#5900 blur Member Posts: 490 Arc User
    What was your Oppressive Darkness suggestion? I think we missed that one and in compilation it ended up being suggested to double its current damage...
    image
  • trgluestickztrgluestickz Member Posts: 1,130 Arc User
    edited May 2017
    blur#5900 said:

    What was your Oppressive Darkness suggestion? I think we missed that one and in compilation it ended up being suggested to double its current damage...

    Went back to page 4 and dug out my origional quote:
    "Oppressive Darkness:
    This passive's piercing damage is too weak and badly needs to be increased. When it was originally released to preview server, people threw a fit over the amount of piercing damage it granted and it got nerfed into the ground. Now it grants too little piercing damage and is in no way competitive with our other passive powers be it PVE or PVP."

    I did not sugest a specific number but did advocate for it to be significantly increased.

    I think I heard someone say earlyer in this thread that the base piercing is currently 700 damage but not sure since I did not test the passive to find its exact number, whatever it is, its very low.
    --
    PVP Rogue,
    --[----- "Your friendly neighborhood spawn of Satan." -----]--
    ----------------------------------------------------------------
    Main Character: Hurricane Marigolds (Rogue WK & Assassin)
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  • trgluestickztrgluestickz Member Posts: 1,130 Arc User
    edited May 2017
    @rustlord

    You mentioned that @morenthar would know the pre mod 5 scoundrel situation better than you. I haven't seen him come back to this thread since some of his earlyer posts but he did adress the pre-nerf scoundrel directly in one of them. I figured this might interest you:
    morenthar said:

    Scoundrel should revert back to Mod 5 performance.

    The nerfing that occurred was the result of whining players that didn't learn how to counter Scoundrel builds. A lot of self-described "pros" were getting owned until they figured it out.

    The build I used was a WK Scoundrel brand and it was the ultimate bum-slayer. I could go into a match and go 30-0 against lesser geared players. That's simply because control was involved. Against good players that figured it out, it was always a good fight.

    Once TRs started laying Smoke down at increasing rates and CWs figured out Repel (took them long enough) Scoundrels balanced out.

    The Devs really caved on Scoundrels and out of it you were left with Sabs still stunning the hell out of people, raking with piercing damage and Execs double proccing SoD for quite awhile. The people playing Sabs, were dead silent about their own issues leaving a handful of people trying to plead with Devs to take a closer look. The Scoundrel tree got screwed.

    Scoundrel he is claiming wasn't OP even with their ccs completly unhalved. He is not the only experianced pvper I've heard say this. I wasn't playing scoundrel back then so I can't say for sure exactly how powerful it was or was not but
    I am leaning more towards trusting the word of those who understood how scoundrel TR worked back then.
    I suspect its a little bit of both. The whiners as usual interpreted something to be a lot stronger than it actually was but there was a grain of truth in that scoundrel was still pretty strong.
    I have my doubts that scoundrel was actually OP but it obviously was powerful.
    Post edited by trgluestickz on
    --
    PVP Rogue,
    --[----- "Your friendly neighborhood spawn of Satan." -----]--
    ----------------------------------------------------------------
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  • demonmongerdemonmonger Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 3,350 Arc User
    > @trgluestickz said:
    > > All of the few TRs who have run speed builds in pvp I have heard of were sabotuers. This is because even if the scoundrel 15% speed bonus was permanant, sabotuers, are still the better choice for speed builds because they have a much easier time maintaining sneak attack.
    >
    > > This means, sabotuers are currently better at being both invisible and fast (your consern) than scoundrels would be under my sugestion.
    >
    > >
    >
    > > If you weigh the consept of a permanant scoundrel speed bonus against sabotuer, the trade off is clear and fair.
    >
    > > If you take scoundrel and it has a 15% permanant speed bonus, you can be faster without temporary speed mechanics like sneak attack but you in exchange are disadvantaged when it comes to trying to do the sabotuer thing of going permastealth to maintain sneak attack all the time. If you go sabotuer, you have a really easy time keeping up sneak attack and are only 15% slower than what a scoundrel can reach in stealth. Its possible to build a scoundrel with a lot of stealth but its still not practical to try to make it a true permastealther so they still will not preform as good as a sabotuer speed build.
    >
    > >
    >
    > > You aren't against sneak attack, an ability that again, makes you both invisible and fast so again, what's the issue?
    >
    > >
    >
    > >
    >
    >
    >
    > Scoundrel tr are the best speed builds that the game has @blurfishx
    >
    > To maximize this stealth just take the feats that refill stealth on dodge roll, add bonus stealth meter, And use bait and switch plus shadow strike.. This is better than the sab build for speed.
    >
    > That cannot be true, scoundrel's speed bonus is not up in combat most of the time right now. Its good for the inbetween moments where you are going between platforms or moving fast in dungeons inbetween mobs. if you used an encounter power within the last 15 seconds, you don't have the scoundrel speed boost.
    >
    > While you can build a scoundrel to be close to perma, there is no clear reason right now to do it over sabotuer when sabotuer is much more efficent at building for stealth. Even under my sugested improvement, sabotuer would still be slightly better for it but scoudnrel would catch up some. You can take the 2 cooldown feats from sabotuer and still be mostly scoundrel but you don't get the sabotuer stealth refills. Whether you agree or not, the difference between sabotuer and scoundrel's potential for speed builds under my sugestion is small enough that it doesn't really matter who is slightly better or not, it still would not harm pvp.
    >
    > Also, your handle summon appears to have messed up. It says blurfish.

    Phone kept adding blurfish...

    But ye's it's true...
    Scoundrel are fastest in and out of combat.
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  • rustlordrustlord Member Posts: 1,454 Arc User
    edited May 2017
    I started making builds at mod 3, something of a supertanky scoundrel reflect TR and I was told it may have inspired some of the full on deflect builds we see today. i played through half mod 4 and decided to take a break so i wasnt there to see how exactly the mod 5 rework worked. i've seen footage and just from always hangin out with morenthar it feels like i knew enough of what went on

    basically, the mod 5 scoundrel werent OP against geared opponents. it's just like people are now figuring out that SE is not that strong vs classes with dodge. however if you go back to the mass rework of mod 5, a lot of the builds then gave off the impression of being overpowered. i guess that's really the problem with controllers.. you get the extra heat from gank whiners even all you did was daze

    but bring us to the present and say mod 5 tr, here now, overlap it with the current uptime we have on courage breaker. those two aren't too powerful on their own, but stack them together it's bound to get a bit dicey. that's also true for everything on the compilation thread plus any changes devs implement we dont know about. nothing there is too strong by itself but stacked together they can be. at this point the best we can do is finalize what goes into that thread and play around with stacking and interactions of any two or three of them, see where that takes us

    summoning @trgluestickz please bring doughnuts
  • trgluestickztrgluestickz Member Posts: 1,130 Arc User
    edited May 2017
    rustlord said:

    I started making builds at mod 3, something of a supertanky scoundrel reflect TR and I was told it may have inspired some of the full on deflect builds we see today. i played through half mod 4 and decided to take a break so i wasnt there to see how exactly the mod 5 rework worked. i've seen footage and just from always hangin out with morenthar it feels like i knew enough of what went on

    basically, the mod 5 scoundrel werent OP against geared opponents. it's just like people are now figuring out that SE is not that strong vs classes with dodge. however if you go back to the mass rework of mod 5, a lot of the builds then gave off the impression of being overpowered. i guess that's really the problem with controllers.. you get the extra heat from gank whiners even all you did was daze

    but bring us to the present and say mod 5 tr, here now, overlap it with the current uptime we have on courage breaker. those two aren't too powerful on their own, but stack them together it's bound to get a bit dicey. that's also true for everything on the compilation thread plus any changes devs implement we dont know about. nothing there is too strong by itself but stacked together they can be. at this point the best we can do is finalize what goes into that thread and play around with stacking and interactions of any two or three of them, see where that takes us

    summoning @trgluestickz please bring doughnuts

    Agreed. I don't think that completly reversing all the post nerf safeguards on scoundrel ccs is the way to go if I gave that impression.
    Scoundrel ccs are currently too weak so they do need a small boost. Nothing crazy, just fixing scullcracker's currently useless cc effect so it doesn't get wasted on almost every proc and increasing concussive strikes duration in pvp a tiny bit should do the trick.
    Also, courage breaker is to have its duration halved in pvp under the compilation thread's sugestions so its not like it will be as strong as it is now, this should lessen the potential risks of CC stacking together. Even if this sugestion for CB was never made, the devs will likely nerf CB anyway.
    --
    PVP Rogue,
    --[----- "Your friendly neighborhood spawn of Satan." -----]--
    ----------------------------------------------------------------
    Main Character: Hurricane Marigolds (Rogue WK & Assassin)
    Ingame Handle: trgluestickz
    Discord Name: Hurricane🌀Marigolds#2563
    Guilds: She Looked LVL 18 & Essence of Aggression
    Alliances: Imperium & Order of the Silent Shroud
    Platform: PC
  • trgluestickztrgluestickz Member Posts: 1,130 Arc User
    edited May 2017
    rustlord said:

    In PvP we're practically begging for scraps.. running pugmades/duos with other DPS to be their CB companion (I'm really good tho, I can CB 3x in 10 seconds..... I know someone could do 5); play coward hit n run maybe we'd kill a GWF. Really I can't put a number to how much buff we need, but a little 10% here 5 % there certainly isn't going to cut it

    Btw; my resume if someone wants to run pugmade
    I'm a legendary companion with courage breaker
    Can keep 1-2 people CB between nodes indefinitely or 3 if they Ice Knife my dummy
    Special skills; i can deft strike to the CW that Ice Knifes my dummy from a tower

    xD

    @rustlord

    You comment on how many times courage breaker can be used in around 10 seconds reminded me of a potential flaw with the CB sugestion in the compilation thread.
    The sugestion was to make CB's slow/debuff last half as long in pvp.
    CB is around 10 seconds in duration before control bonus is added. The fact that CB goes through all cc resistance combined with the fact that control bonus does apply means that its longer than 10 seconds even in pvp right now.
    With the debuff/slow halved, CB would be 6 seconds bare minimum.
    For high recovery TRs, they will probably still be able to perma CB people if they so choose. Add a little control bonus, and its a gurentee that they will still be able to.
    This means our sugested nerf to CB will only make CB more difficult for TRs with low recovery but for those nearer to BIS, little would change.

    There was another sugestion brought up by @whitespicyrice (aka Rookz/Reedz) that came up much earlyer in the thread. It initially got shot down without a second thought by several people.
    The more I think about it, the more viable Rookz/Reedz sugestion for CB appears to be. Here it is:

    I will make this as simple as possible.

    Many other will agree.

    I'm sure Devs will agree.

    Cooldown on Courage Breaker. Done

    Essentially, he is sugesting that CB should have an internal cooldown in place.
    As long as the internal cooldown lasts longer than it takes for CB to wear off, this would accomplish the following 3 things:
    • You would no longer be able to stack multaple CBs onto the same target.
    • You would no longer be able to maintain CB permanantly.
    • It would accomplish fixing the issues with CB better than halving CB would.
    Ideally, this change would only apply to pvp.

    Another thing I will sugest to make it easier to set up a consistant internal cooldown is to make it so control bonus no longer applies to CB. If it pierces all control resistance then I see no reason why not to also make it so control bonus does not apply to CB.

    One more thing I will sugest is raising the damage debuff for both pvp and pve as part of this change. Its currently 54% instead of the 120% in the tooltip. I'm not sure whether or not it should be increased all the way to 120% but that is an option.

    Does anyone have a counter arguement to why this wouldn't work or a better idea?
    Post edited by trgluestickz on
    --
    PVP Rogue,
    --[----- "Your friendly neighborhood spawn of Satan." -----]--
    ----------------------------------------------------------------
    Main Character: Hurricane Marigolds (Rogue WK & Assassin)
    Ingame Handle: trgluestickz
    Discord Name: Hurricane🌀Marigolds#2563
    Guilds: She Looked LVL 18 & Essence of Aggression
    Alliances: Imperium & Order of the Silent Shroud
    Platform: PC
  • mafiadelperro#8853 mafiadelperro Member Posts: 56 Arc User
    edited May 2017
    I dont liked why i will like to slot cb if i cant troll the same target multiple times lol is there a other class that have internal cooldown on a daily power? I mean if i dont have elven or itc a hr or cw can maintain me paralize until i die
  • trgluestickztrgluestickz Member Posts: 1,130 Arc User
    edited May 2017

    I dont liked why i will like to slot cb if i cant troll the same target multiple times lol is there a other class that have internal cooldown on a daily power? I mean if i dont have elven or itc a hr or cw can maintain me paralize until i die

    Using other cc powers when cb is not up, using bloodbath, building yourself to have lots of deflection (reduces cc durations), building yourself to have more stealth or simply stealthing at the right moments, dodging at the right times, moving around a lot to make yourself harder to hit, and using DF's flurry as a cc sheild are just a few of the ways you could go about surviving in between CBs.

    Take @rustlord as just one example, he's a WK so he doesn't have ITC. I think he does use a trans elven battle but I doubt taking it off would be enough by itself to cripple him.

    Also, it should get easier to survive other CC classes post rework thanks to some of the other TR rework sugestions that have been put fowards so far.

    CB also doesn't stop you from being cc locked. It does make it more likely for you to survive a cc lock but seeing as the cb damage reduction is only 54%, you can still be killed with cb up quite easily.

    --------------

    I don't know if other dailies have any internal cooldowns in other classes but for TRs, lurker's assault comes to mind.
    Lurker's assault currently has AP gain for it nerfed. While this particular nerf isn't quite a cooldown or the best option for its purpose (to stop you from combining SE with lurkers buff) it does show that the devs are willing to make exceptions to general rules.
    --
    PVP Rogue,
    --[----- "Your friendly neighborhood spawn of Satan." -----]--
    ----------------------------------------------------------------
    Main Character: Hurricane Marigolds (Rogue WK & Assassin)
    Ingame Handle: trgluestickz
    Discord Name: Hurricane🌀Marigolds#2563
    Guilds: She Looked LVL 18 & Essence of Aggression
    Alliances: Imperium & Order of the Silent Shroud
    Platform: PC
  • deathdealerseradeathdealersera Member Posts: 39 Arc User
    Hi guys,

    I usually do not take part in Class balance threads. But it would seem that a form of change is in order for TRs to make other viable builds with them.

    Currently the only 2 known viable MI builds are:

    1. Recovery focused Saboteur Shocking Execution build
    2. Recovery focused Executioner Dazing & Smoke bomb build (which can also be used in the same way as a Saboteur Shocking Execution build).

    Current viable WK build is:

    Executioner Razor Action focused SoD focused build.

    Now for the moment of truth.

    TR is a class which is highly dependent on Recovery in PvP. Many folks would be beg to differ or say that TR is viable without it too. And fortunately, I agree, yes a TR maybe viable without Recovery, but recovery seems to be the Meta and the only way for a TR to keep up with cc (via Dazing Strike + Smoke bomb, or even 1 of them). The burst mostly is a well-timed Shocking Execution.

    This is where the Problem lies.

    Burst of a TR needs to reworked. More importantly, it needs to be looked at once again. PvP TRs are focused on recovery, not just from Silvery enchantments or from Mastery insignias, but also from Insignia bonuses, like Artificer's Persuasion and Influence.

    All of this goes to show that TRs are heavily dependent on Piercing damage. May it be from shocking execution or from SoD. The piercing damage needs to be looked at.

    For example: A Saboteur TR would focus on getting 2 Stacks of Cunning Ambusher (Heroic feat) to gain an instant 12% damage boost, its very rare to see TRs in PvP get 3 Stacks of it which would lead to a total 18% damage boost.

    This is straight up stupid. Stealth is used as a means of Pure buff spec for TR making any other Face tank style useless.

    Wait .... did I say that right? Some of you must be wondering, is this guy for real? We have ITC and on top of that, we have Courage Breaker which on Rank 4 = 120% Damage Reduction.

    Mind you, Damage Reduction is very different from Damage Resistance.

    Reduction is a straight up reducing multiplier in the game while Resistance is based off your Defense stat (which is easily negated by Armor Penetration).

    So by now, whats the typical rotation of a TR?

    Smoke Bomb + ITC (since he can effectively use 2 encounters in their buffed state from just 1 stealth) or go for purely Smoke bomb and use Shadow Strike from Stealth and add in ITC to get Shadow Strike buffed from stealth (which stuns) and ITC from Stealth too to get 50% more Damage Resistance.

    And then comes the Amazing, Shocking Execution which on really good and empowered builds hits for 150K+, hence you would notice most folks trying to go towards HP higher than 200K in PvP.


    Ok, enough of the Jibber Jabber.

    Things that need a rework:

    1. Cunning Ambusher needs to be Non-Stackable (its why most folks build recovery to keep benefiting from the 12% constant damage boost).

    2. Invisible Infiltrator and Infiltrator's Action need to reworked to allow Non-stacking buffs. High recovery builds end up allowing 2 or more stacks on Infiltrator's Action while Blood bath allows having 2 stacks of Invisible Infiltrator.

    3. AP gain on a TR needs to be re-evaluated. The current setup with recovery needs to be changed in order for TRs to effectively play Hit and Run. I agree that TRs need to be more mobile but for that, they should lose their Stealth. Being mobile with stealth = pure troll which must be avoided.

    4. Courage Breaker needs a tune up. Its a single most HAMSTER daily in the game. Which has 3 functions.
    - Slows the person down (there is a bug which roots the person and only allows them to move via dodge).
    - Increases TRs power rating by 30%
    - Reduces enemies damage output by 120%

    The reason why Courage Breaker needs a rework is the ability of this daily to bypass immunity. Making Oghma's Token, Wheel (wind) buff completely useless.

    Either rework the artifacts to allow pure immunity against this. Or rework the daily.

    Its a balance needed on artifact (with 1 min Cooldown) vs a Daily that is spammable like an at-will with the current meta.

    5. Razor Action, the piercing damage on this feat needs a rework.

    6. ITC, needs to be reworked or the cooldown increased. It's an encounter that effectively makes Piercing damage the only viable way to kill a TR. (ofcourse, unless you have a GF who just plays too damn well, he can kill the TR).

    7. Shocking Execution needs a rework itself. This daily needs to be reworked to allow it to perform better in PvE boss fights and also make it useful in PvP without Piercing damage (or atleast, part of the damage can be piercing, like SoD, but ofcourse not 50% the value needs to be a bit less considering shocking is spammable).

    8. TRs need a way to work without the Constant Crit Severity and Stealth related buffs towards crit. Non-crit builds should be made viable for a TR. Single reason for playing high recovery stealth is the Crit severity buff from feats in stealth and the 100% Crit chance. This needs to be reworked.



    What comes to mind when I play a Rogue?
    Simple, a hit and run class that should technically out maneuver most classes and beat them via tactics or 3 to 4 hits. Absolutely no 1-shotting unless they are focused on 1 shot itself and nothing more. There should be no middle ground for a class like TR.

    Deflect is easily achievable for most TRs making them effectively tanky (if they spec that way). Not to forget ITC.
    If they go ham on DPS via Shocking for PvP, well you all have seen that, haven't you?


    I will be making another post shortly which will compile a reasonable setup for a more balanced TR that can go in almost any direction (except being tanky) with a good enough setup for DPS if I can get all the necessary info in a few days. This is more or less a Draft or a Sketch of what needs to happen with a TR. This sketch works best if only said abilities and feats are reworked without additionally working on the current meta of a TR.

    If the meta needs to change, I will post a more in-depth guide/thread entitling how said changes need to be accommodated and what base class changes need to happen to keep the TR viable.

    TR + HR + OP + SW
    Nikostratos

  • deathdealerseradeathdealersera Member Posts: 39 Arc User
    Hello again folks,

    Some of the very knowledgeable and respectable TRs posted that a Scoundrel TRs damage needs a 40% base (up from 25%) on Low blows.

    Scoundrel TR if played with the Recovery meta has a similar Damage Threshold as a Saboteur with the lack of an extra stealth bar if compared to a Saboteur.

    The 25% damage from Low blows is more consistent if you can keep up the pressure on your opponent via Dazing Strike and Smoke bomb. However, saboteur lacks this setup and has a variable form of damage.

    You can test said damage output via Shocking Execution. Scoundrel at the current moment, does not need any buffs/nerfs. Its as good as a Pressure keeping TR can be. Concussive strike also, does know follow the 5 second CD effect as posted on Tooltip. Sometimes it procs more often in said time.

    TR + HR + OP + SW
    Nikostratos

  • blur#5900 blur Member Posts: 490 Arc User
    @deathdealersera Hi, thanks for your suggestions. Please keep in mind the PvE side of the TR as well. Increasing ITC cooldown and no buff for Scoundrel feats isnt helpful when it comes to making TR better in PvE, especially Scoundrel.
    image
  • deathdealerseradeathdealersera Member Posts: 39 Arc User
    @blur#5900 thanks for pointing it out.

    I have played TR mostly for pvp. Piercing damage and CC are 2 cancerous things in PvP.

    The scondrel spec cannot be designed to work well for PvE. The reason being simple. It consists of damage which is dependent on cc. In PvP this seems understandable. In PvE sabo and exe will always out perform at boss fights.

    Now the issue is, if you buff low blows or skullcracker. How do you make it come in line with the other 2 DPS paths?

    If we dont rework TR from its base, the nerfs and buff discussion will be never ending. For the TR paths to work, base needs to be re-evaluated.

    The cooldown addition to ITC is good if the recovery meta is not changed. Infact, think about it. Scoundrel is meant to be an agressive tanky fighter who can take hits without having to worry about running away. This seems to be more inline with ITC cooldown increase as a tankier setup would benefit the scoundrel path. The better way of fixing the output of a TR in terms of damage would be re-evaluating its base damage on at-wills and encounters. For example if we compared TR to an HR. HRs original Plant Growth didn't have any cap and allowed for seemingly immeasurable amount of damage boost during the adds section of CN. The rework for Plant Growth ended up limiting it to 5. While a Smoke can be considered in a similar way, it also does not have any cap on itself. In a group setup where people try to bring all adds in 1 particular area, a TR could out perform. Also, Critical severity damage for a TR needs to be thought of again. As we know crit severity works based on a min-max range and too much of crit severity is bad as most folks know. My suggestion would be rework these into straight up power boosts for a TR. Power is the only thing that has more of a better reward than any other stat in the game.

    This would rectify the base damage output of a TR (to a certain extent). Allow for a more stable set of damage logs. And slowly and steadily bring them in line with GWFs etc.

    The only thing limiting a TR is its stealth bonus. If this was added into the encounters with Stealth being more a solid damage boost than a 100% Crit Chance setup, TR would come in line with a GWF in terms of Unstoppable. Encounters would need definitely a 10-20% base increase as well. TR's main hand and offhand would need atleast 10% boost as well.

    For the PvE aspect. Damage boosts which are un-stackable need to be introduced. This would require a change in SoD damage (if the piercing aspect was removed from it). This would benefit both pve and pvp.

    The question is, do people want the devs to rework TRs the same way they reworked HRs. Lets not let history repeat itself.

    Btw, for people that don't know. One with the Shadow's (saboteur capstone) has a severe glitch that allows a TR to use the capstone twice before it goes on cooldown (this may or may not be a Ping related issue, but it still exists). Also, this capstone buffs Dailies as well.

    Executioner: Needs a change on Critical Severity based damage and needs to be re-purposed to have power boosts which should be more or less constant and consistent. Over-stacking should definitely be avoided.
    Saboteur: Needs to be re-evaluated to add more mobility and recovery to a TRs playstyle (or the Stealth Rework I suggested would fix this). This would bring Saboteur to be more of a stealth based damage build (without having to take feats from other specs to be viable).
    Scoundrel: Needs to be re purposed to be a true cc based setup with viable capstone damage (implying a CD reduction on it). The mobility bonus should be a perma-buff.
    Encounters: Base damage needs to be buffed by 10-20% boost (to be on the safe side, both min-max values need to be tested to find the perfect ratio needed).
    Dailies: Need to have an internal cooldown or no-ap gain period while in use. Whirlwind of blades with high enough recovery allows over-stacking of power. Courage breaker would definitely be a cause of issue in PvP as stated in my previous posts.
    At-wills: Could be increased by at-least 5%.
    Weapons Damage: Boosting this at-most by 10% should gradually fix the damage of a TR.

    Now, the more indepth analysis to keep a TR more stable in terms of damage would be the balance of its Bleed dmg vs burst damage. With the above mentioned buffs, burst would win and maybe even seem overpowered.

    Hence, I recommend that TRs damage should be converted mostly to bleed form, Duelist flurry should remain as one of the most used at-wills to allow for this consistent damage. While lowering the TRs damage potential on Burst.

    I think, this more detailed sketch should help with a draft of a TRs PvE/PvP rework.

    It won't hurt to add 2 separate bonuses on feats like Thorned roots of a HR (damage on control immune and non-immune folks). This would definitely help control the buffs from feeling overpowered and still reasonably making TRs well in-line for a usable class for PvP and PvE. Removal of Piercing damage or reduction in its threshold would be the Cherry on top to make this work.

    TR + HR + OP + SW
    Nikostratos

  • blur#5900 blur Member Posts: 490 Arc User
    @deathdealersera I am not sure if you read all suggestions, specifically the latest ones in the compilation thread posted recently, also compiled suggestions are currently missing latest changes that were agreed on...

    In the Scoundrel suggestions, Skullcracker specifically, it was proposed to separate damage buff from dazes and increase it by 5%. That way it would work on CC immune targets as well which would help PvE Scoundrels. Perma increased movement is a thing which was later agreed on but not yet added in compilations, daze upgraded to stun as well to avoid overlapping dazes from encounters and Skullcracker. Savage Blows suggests additional 5% damage buff. Low blows suggests highest buff but still tied to CC. This to work would need to be paired with Courage Breaker but as we know CB is inferior to Lurkers Assault, so this could probably handle a higher number than suggested for PvE but would probably create a issue in PvP.
    PvPers might have recovery high enough to handle higher ITC cooldown but PvEers dont have recovery that high and ITC's cooldown is already quite long and for a squishy class as TR, ITC is the only thing that saves us in PvE.

    Yes the Scoundrel is supposed to be a tankier version but TR is not a class which takes hits, it deflects them and Scoundrel has higher deflection compared to others, even tho, as mentioned in discussion, not well designed and needs a change. ITC is only helping that tankier version.

    Smoke bomb is not over performing by itself, even without cap. You need to be heavily buffed to rely only on Smoke Bomb and still will perform less than others if its only Smoke Bomb. WoB and Blade Flurry play a big role in AoE heavy fights.
    Base damage has been suggested for some encounters with exception for few. Stealth suggestion adds overflow crit % as a severity so this is a indirect buff for encounters as well and anything used from Stealth.
    SoD has few suggestions but the one without piercing damage would need a higher number because without piercing damage it would under perform.
    Saboteur capstone has been reported in Known bugs section.

    Most of the things you have suggested have been mentioned and the buffs you suggest could be nice for average TRs but i think they are too much for top tier. Simplified version of Duelists Flurry has been suggested and more responsive version of SoD and those 2 were probably the biggest issues in PvE.

    If the suggested buffs get implemented then the piercing damage from SE really needs to be toned down and there is a suggestion for it, which also halves the AP gain after SE usage so it fits more to Hit and Run style compared to current Hit and Hit.

    We know original suggestions may not be implemented, devs might not like them or any other reason, so different improvements are welcome as well.
    image
  • demonmongerdemonmonger Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 3,350 Arc User
    > @deathdealersera said:
    > Hi guys,
    >
    > I usually do not take part in Class balance threads. But it would seem that a form of change is in order for TRs to make other viable builds with them.
    >
    > Currently the only 2 known viable MI builds are:
    >
    > 1. Recovery focused Saboteur Shocking Execution build
    > 2. Recovery focused Executioner Dazing & Smoke bomb build (which can also be used in the same way as a Saboteur Shocking Execution build).
    >
    > Current viable WK build is:
    >
    > Executioner Razor Action focused SoD focused build.
    >
    > Now for the moment of truth.
    >
    > TR is a class which is highly dependent on Recovery in PvP. Many folks would be beg to differ or say that TR is viable without it too. And fortunately, I agree, yes a TR maybe viable without Recovery, but recovery seems to be the Meta and the only way for a TR to keep up with cc (via Dazing Strike + Smoke bomb, or even 1 of them). The burst mostly is a well-timed Shocking Execution.
    >
    > This is where the Problem lies.
    >
    > Burst of a TR needs to reworked. More importantly, it needs to be looked at once again. PvP TRs are focused on recovery, not just from Silvery enchantments or from Mastery insignias, but also from Insignia bonuses, like Artificer's Persuasion and Influence.
    >
    > All of this goes to show that TRs are heavily dependent on Piercing damage. May it be from shocking execution or from SoD. The piercing damage needs to be looked at.
    >
    > For example: A Saboteur TR would focus on getting 2 Stacks of Cunning Ambusher (Heroic feat) to gain an instant 12% damage boost, its very rare to see TRs in PvP get 3 Stacks of it which would lead to a total 18% damage boost.
    >
    > This is straight up stupid. Stealth is used as a means of Pure buff spec for TR making any other Face tank style useless.
    >
    > Wait .... did I say that right? Some of you must be wondering, is this guy for real? We have ITC and on top of that, we have Courage Breaker which on Rank 4 = 120% Damage Reduction.
    >
    > Mind you, Damage Reduction is very different from Damage Resistance.
    >
    > Reduction is a straight up reducing multiplier in the game while Resistance is based off your Defense stat (which is easily negated by Armor Penetration).
    >
    > So by now, whats the typical rotation of a TR?
    >
    > Smoke Bomb + ITC (since he can effectively use 2 encounters in their buffed state from just 1 stealth) or go for purely Smoke bomb and use Shadow Strike from Stealth and add in ITC to get Shadow Strike buffed from stealth (which stuns) and ITC from Stealth too to get 50% more Damage Resistance.
    >
    > And then comes the Amazing, Shocking Execution which on really good and empowered builds hits for 150K+, hence you would notice most folks trying to go towards HP higher than 200K in PvP.
    >
    >
    > Ok, enough of the Jibber Jabber.
    >
    > Things that need a rework:
    >
    > 1. Cunning Ambusher needs to be Non-Stackable (its why most folks build recovery to keep benefiting from the 12% constant damage boost).
    >
    > 2. Invisible Infiltrator and Infiltrator's Action need to reworked to allow Non-stacking buffs. High recovery builds end up allowing 2 or more stacks on Infiltrator's Action while Blood bath allows having 2 stacks of Invisible Infiltrator.
    >
    > 3. AP gain on a TR needs to be re-evaluated. The current setup with recovery needs to be changed in order for TRs to effectively play Hit and Run. I agree that TRs need to be more mobile but for that, they should lose their Stealth. Being mobile with stealth = pure troll which must be avoided.
    >
    > 4. Courage Breaker needs a tune up. Its a single most <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> daily in the game. Which has 3 functions.
    > - Slows the person down (there is a bug which roots the person and only allows them to move via dodge).
    > - Increases TRs power rating by 30%
    > - Reduces enemies damage output by 120%
    >
    > The reason why Courage Breaker needs a rework is the ability of this daily to bypass immunity. Making Oghma's Token, Wheel (wind) buff completely useless.
    >
    > Either rework the artifacts to allow pure immunity against this. Or rework the daily.
    >
    > Its a balance needed on artifact (with 1 min Cooldown) vs a Daily that is spammable like an at-will with the current meta.
    >
    > 5. Razor Action, the piercing damage on this feat needs a rework.
    >
    > 6. ITC, needs to be reworked or the cooldown increased. It's an encounter that effectively makes Piercing damage the only viable way to kill a TR. (ofcourse, unless you have a GF who just plays too damn well, he can kill the TR).
    >
    > 7. Shocking Execution needs a rework itself. This daily needs to be reworked to allow it to perform better in PvE boss fights and also make it useful in PvP without Piercing damage (or atleast, part of the damage can be piercing, like SoD, but ofcourse not 50% the value needs to be a bit less considering shocking is spammable).
    >
    > 8. TRs need a way to work without the Constant Crit Severity and Stealth related buffs towards crit. Non-crit builds should be made viable for a TR. Single reason for playing high recovery stealth is the Crit severity buff from feats in stealth and the 100% Crit chance. This needs to be reworked.
    >
    >
    >
    > What comes to mind when I play a Rogue?
    > Simple, a hit and run class that should technically out maneuver most classes and beat them via tactics or 3 to 4 hits. Absolutely no 1-shotting unless they are focused on 1 shot itself and nothing more. There should be no middle ground for a class like TR.
    >
    > Deflect is easily achievable for most TRs making them effectively tanky (if they spec that way). Not to forget ITC.
    > If they go ham on DPS via Shocking for PvP, well you all have seen that, haven't you?
    >
    >
    > I will be making another post shortly which will compile a reasonable setup for a more balanced TR that can go in almost any direction (except being tanky) with a good enough setup for DPS if I can get all the necessary info in a few days. This is more or less a Draft or a Sketch of what needs to happen with a TR. This sketch works best if only said abilities and feats are reworked without additionally working on the current meta of a TR.
    >
    > If the meta needs to change, I will post a more in-depth guide/thread entitling how said changes need to be accommodated and what base class changes need to happen to keep the TR viable.

    Don't always trust tooltips.
    Courage breaker does not do 120% reduction bro.

    Nice input but lots of incorrect info.
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  • demonmongerdemonmonger Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 3,350 Arc User
    edited June 2017
    I know many of you want this class to be better, but some of you are focusing on your playstyle only or rather what playstyle you would like to see.

    Suggested changes would be nice for some builds, but destroy others.

    What I see here is a group of players ego stroking their desired effects into wishful existence.

    Notice how some enchantments grant stealth in combat to enemy players? Notice again how that stealth makes it impossible to see or target them. This is how tr stealth should be.

    The moment we enter stealth we should be granted true stealth that breaks target lock and does not allow the enemy to see us no matter how close they are. This true stealth should last for at least 1/3 of our total stealth duration. The remaining 2/3 of stealth should function in game as it does now, Meaning those close to us should be able to see us.
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  • trgluestickztrgluestickz Member Posts: 1,130 Arc User
    edited June 2017
    @deathdealersera

    Scoundrel can in fact be buffed in pve to be competative with other trs. I doubt it will beat executioner when it comes to boss killing potential under our improvements but it probably can catch up to sabotuer in pve. Sabotuers are better mob killers than executioners are in pve and which one wins in damage has a lot to do with whether that dungeon is mob focused or boss focused.
    The current problem for pve scoundrels is indeed that our damage is too dependant on ccs. This issue can however be fixed. The best proposed fix for scullcracker's damage is to seperate the cc effect from the damage effect which will mean that the damage bonus will now apply to control immune targets. Other small damage buffs have been proposed to be tacked onto some of scoundrel's other feats. Low blows has had a massive damage buff for it proposed as you commented on and it will be the only damage feat scoundrels have that is 100% dependant on ccs under our sugestions.

    For cunning ambusher, I have no problem with making it so it can't stack stack provided that TRs gain enough damage from other sources as part of the rework to make up for its loss. I'm all for making steps towards taking down recovery + stealth's monopoly on good pvp builds but I think we can all agree that TRs need more damage than they are dealing currently.

    Piercing damage I would be in favor of weeding out of all classes gamewide, not just TRs.
    However, unless something is done about piercing damage on a gamewide scale, there are only 2 reductions in TR piercing damage I am currently in favor of. Razor action needs to be changed to no longer deal piercing damage and one possible component of fixing SE could be to reduce or strip its piercing damage. I haven't worked a lot on this particular sugestion for SE so I'm unsure what would need to be done to make this sugestion for SE work.

    I would be ok with changing cc immunity granting artifacts so they can break you out of CB as part of the CB fix.
    I will however mention an error with your discription of CB. The tooltip for CB is misleading and it does not actually reduce the target's damage by 120%, the real number is 54%.

    As for ITC, any rework or increased cooldown for it needs to only apply to pvp.
    ITC is not causing issues in pve and such a change would hurt pve if it applied to both types of gameplay.
    I would rather see recovery and ap gain adjusted on a gamewide scale for all classes, a lot of the current issues with powers aren't comming from the powers themselves, they simply can be used too often.
    I am against reworking ITC itself but inplementing an increased cooldown for ITC in pvp is a reasonable fix since the devs aren't likely to mess with recovery and ap gain anytime soon.
    As long as our other encounters are buffed/reworked to be good again as part of the rework, weakening ITC's monopoly in pvp I agree would be benificial.

    Its one thing to give a cooldown to a daily power that particularly needs it but stopping all ap gain while under use or handing out cooldowns to all daily powers for only 1 class is very lopsided. This should be a gamewide thing instead of just a TR thing if this was implemented for so many dailies.

    Base increases to dps output such as overall buffs to weapon, at will, and encounter damage is one of 2 main paths for buffing TRs. The other one that is more prevalant in this thread is to tackle powers and feats on a case by case basis instead of doing a broad dps increase. The 2 aren't mutually exclusive and using a little of both is doable but there is a risk of some singular changes being too strong when paired with a broad dps increase.
    --
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