IG: Reflecting damage game design (Illusionist's Gambit)

metalicum1 · May 2017

Out of all the nonsense that has been designed for this game, the reflecting damage is the most jarring one.
Who tested it and said: "Yes, this is what we wanted! Random, unavoidable death"..

Now, seriously, can somebody explain to me what game design philosophy led to this? In a game where enormous AoE dmg is incentivized, whose idea was to brutally punish it? and to even add more salt to the wound, why the effect has to be random and not signaled by any visual or audio hint?

If you have some glorious plan to change the meta so that this makes some sort of sense, why don't you just turn off the affix for now? Why do you torture us?
And let's be clear, currently, this is the only way to obtain solid companion gear (on PS4 it is), so IG is not just something you can skip if you don't feel like playing it. Actually, considering how companions work currently, IG companion gear is arguably the most important, most valuable set of items you can get in the current expansion, and one of the most important in the whole game (again, for ps4).

If they already explained it, please, good people on this forum, redirect me to that discussion.

metalicum1 · May 2017

magenubbie said:
I have no idea what you're talking about. Reflecting damage never results in instant death. At least, I've never seen an NPC with so much reflect % that it kills you. Examples of where this happens would be nice. It's a useless stat for most classes, I agree, and maybe worth the effort in PvP, but it doesn't kill you anywhere else.

Nor do I see the relevance between reflecting damage and companion gear. Either craft some gear yourself (with either jewelcrafting or Masterwork) or slap on some mulhorand gear on it and you'll be just fine.

I am talking about Illusionist Gambit skirmish, where 1 cast of an encounter results in my instant death when the random effect procs.

forumnamesuxs · May 2017

1st off, this is the main reason I avoid that skirmish like HIV.
2nd, there is a way to tell which enemy has it, although I can't remember for sure how, but I think there's an icon for it in the mob's buff bar.
However, if you already applied a DoT before a monster begins reflecting, you die, or at least I did, since the reflected damage seemingly got scaled up multiple times over, or just looped somehow. So, when I hit something with smolder, or any other weak AF attack, and an affected target started reflecting: Instant death.

metalicum1 · May 2017

forumnamesuxs said:
1st off, this is the main reason I avoid that skirmish like HIV.

2nd, there is a way to tell which enemy has it, although I can't remember for sure how, but I think there's an icon for it in the mob's buff bar.

However, if you already applied a DoT before a monster begins reflecting, you die, or at least I did, since the reflected damage seemingly got scaled up multiple times over, or just looped somehow. So, when I hit something with smolder, or any other weak AF attack, and an affected target started reflecting: Instant death.

Mob's debuff bar is effectively invisible for me, the icons are so small I cannot decipher what is what, plus we see only few effects. (console). Also a a major pain in the ...

I'm CW MoF so I pretty much just die even when I don't do anything or much. Whenever the game wants me to. casting CoI with Critical conflagration is death sentence.

I would also avoid it, but unfortunately it is the only place to drop 2 offense slot companion gear (PS4)

thrilk · May 2017

magenubbie said:
I have no idea what you're talking about.

Quoted for truth.

Unless they changed it, I am pretty sure Mulhorand gear doesn't work well with companions. You don't get nearly the stats you would on a character.

nirafelos · May 2017

I agree that the reflect is completely obnoxious.

The game is in a state where, beyond a certain gear level, any DPS character's average hit is several times his max HP. In such a setting, 100% reflection on mobs is not acceptable. Maybe worse, any "Damage on Deflect" effect is *still* causing this game to infinitely loop until one of the reflecting parties is dead or fails to deflect, which means reflecting mobs can one-shot certain tank builds, or a rogue with Impossible to Catch on, or a HR with Lone Wolf slotted and bad luck on recursive deflecting.

A "slow down and be careful and intentional with your attacks" effect is...fine, though getting IG to gold is already a candidate for the longest duration skirmish. This really isn't that. I generally switch to archery stance and use electric shot once every few seconds for the duration, but even that has one-shotted me several times.

thefiresidecat · May 2017

Yup unavoidable instadeath. I totally agree with op.

veywiil · May 2017

I actually like the deflect, makes you stop your hard hitting DPS buttons, and realize how OP you've become. Not even you can handle your own power. Adds a sort of 'impossible' difficulty to IG, not that anyone runs IG anyway.

metalicum1 · May 2017

veywiil#8685 said:
I actually like the deflect, makes you stop your hard hitting DPS buttons, and realize how OP you've become. Not even you can handle your own power. Adds a sort of 'impossible' difficulty to IG, not that anyone runs IG anyway.

With all the DoT effects, you can't just "stop" damaging. Plus, as I stated, IG is the ONLY way to get the BiS companion gear on PS4, so currently it is required progress.

Also, all the other content in the game incentivize max damage per second, with no exception. implementing a feature like this in the current state of neverwinter is a sign of a complete lack of game design insight, or at least a complete ignorance.

ltsmithneko · May 2017

Hehe... .w. A lightning weilding Gwf with Steel Blitz on, watch what happens. lol

santralafax · May 2017

ltsmithneko said:
Hehe... .w. A lightning weilding Gwf with Steel Blitz on, watch what happens. lol

I know. Ow. Yes, I know.

jaegernl · May 2017

The reflect damage is especially amusing when the effect procs on a mob that has Creeping Death stacks on it. I'd be running around, flailing my arms and screaming 'No, please, stop!' while I rather rapidly burn to death.

pitshade · May 2017

Realistically, we are all glass canons as our skills are balanced around killing mobs with many times more HP than characters. If not for that, reflection would be reasonable and additionally PVP wouldn't have had so many of the issues that have plagued it. (Tenacity being the rather imperfect fix for it.)

disposablehero · May 2017

jaegernl said:
I'd be running around, flailing my arms and screaming 'No, please, stop!' while I rather rapidly burn to death.

Pretty much this, but in my case I can't stop laughing when it does happen.

I think the goal with the reflect mobs is to get us to be a bit more methodical when dealing with them instead of just trying to burn through everything as fast as possible. A Paladin in the group helps out a lot too.

ravenskya · May 2017

Yeah - my boons on my healadin will do me in... because it's not like I can stop healing. My TR is set up for poison/bleed damage so I just run around screaming as I die after a few tics

Though I've never had an issue with it - I think it's hysterical going in there with my friends that are so OP and watching them execute a devastating attack and suddenly start yelling "no, no, NO!" as they complete the attack and demolish themselves.

We don't run it often, and when we do it's all with friends for our daily skirmish AD. If I were farming it with randoms that might drive me insane.

metalicum1 · May 2017

disposablehero#5903 said:

jaegernl said:
I'd be running around, flailing my arms and screaming 'No, please, stop!' while I rather rapidly burn to death.
Pretty much this, but in my case I can't stop laughing when it does happen.

I think the goal with the reflect mobs is to get us to be a bit more methodical when dealing with them instead of just trying to burn through everything as fast as possible. A Paladin in the group helps out a lot too.

Well, I highly doubt that's the case. casting disintegrate (1 very common CW encounter power) is an IK for me, and I'm not even high end geared. plus, many DoTs cannot be controlled, like smolder when Critical Conflagration is slotted (again, contradictory design, when you are motivated to spread your DoT uncontrollably, to as many targets as possible in the rest of the game, but here, you are brutally punished for it. really to punish a player for something the rest of the game rewards).

That's also part of the problem. Even if it is the case with the methodical approach, it is misguided when the rest of the game is designed as it is. This is not about methodical approach, or some kind of strategy. We don't have tools to deal with it. Doing less damage, or hitting not as fast as possible only results in the phase being longer with more opportunities for death from random proc, plus you don' really achieving anything since a single cast can kill you instantly.

So actually, instead of more methodical approach, you are incentivized to deal with the phase even faster so that you get less random reflect damage procs, or to cycle through your party, with only 2 people doing damage at the same time.

fuacccreation · June 2017

Agree with OP. FIX PLEASE.

disposablehero · June 2017

metalicum1 said:

disposablehero#5903 said:

jaegernl said:
I'd be running around, flailing my arms and screaming 'No, please, stop!' while I rather rapidly burn to death.
Pretty much this, but in my case I can't stop laughing when it does happen.

I think the goal with the reflect mobs is to get us to be a bit more methodical when dealing with them instead of just trying to burn through everything as fast as possible. A Paladin in the group helps out a lot too.
Well, I highly doubt that's the case. casting disintegrate (1 very common CW encounter power) is an IK for me, and I'm not even high end geared. plus, many DoTs cannot be controlled, like smolder when Critical Conflagration is slotted (again, contradictory design, when you are motivated to spread your DoT uncontrollably, to as many targets as possible in the rest of the game, but here, you are brutally punished for it. really to punish a player for something the rest of the game rewards).

That's also part of the problem. Even if it is the case with the methodical approach, it is misguided when the rest of the game is designed as it is. This is not about methodical approach, or some kind of strategy. We don't have tools to deal with it. Doing less damage, or hitting not as fast as possible only results in the phase being longer with more opportunities for death from random proc, plus you don' really achieving anything since a single cast can kill you instantly.

So actually, instead of more methodical approach, you are incentivized to deal with the phase even faster so that you get less random reflect damage procs, or to cycle through your party, with only 2 people doing damage at the same time.

Doubt me all you want, I have yet to lose an IG run since I started farming it.

wintersmoke · June 2017

disposablehero#5903 said:

metalicum1 said:

disposablehero#5903 said:

jaegernl said:
I'd be running around, flailing my arms and screaming 'No, please, stop!' while I rather rapidly burn to death.
Pretty much this, but in my case I can't stop laughing when it does happen.

I think the goal with the reflect mobs is to get us to be a bit more methodical when dealing with them instead of just trying to burn through everything as fast as possible. A Paladin in the group helps out a lot too.
Well, I highly doubt that's the case. casting disintegrate (1 very common CW encounter power) is an IK for me, and I'm not even high end geared. plus, many DoTs cannot be controlled, like smolder when Critical Conflagration is slotted (again, contradictory design, when you are motivated to spread your DoT uncontrollably, to as many targets as possible in the rest of the game, but here, you are brutally punished for it. really to punish a player for something the rest of the game rewards).

That's also part of the problem. Even if it is the case with the methodical approach, it is misguided when the rest of the game is designed as it is. This is not about methodical approach, or some kind of strategy. We don't have tools to deal with it. Doing less damage, or hitting not as fast as possible only results in the phase being longer with more opportunities for death from random proc, plus you don' really achieving anything since a single cast can kill you instantly.

So actually, instead of more methodical approach, you are incentivized to deal with the phase even faster so that you get less random reflect damage procs, or to cycle through your party, with only 2 people doing damage at the same time.

Doubt me all you want, I have yet to lose an IG run since I started farming it.

I have lost a few. Mostly when 1 player leaves when the bronze vote doesn't go their way. But if you have a BIS DPS, the reflect damage can wipe an entire party 0,o

armadeonx · June 2017

magenubbie said:
slap on some mulhorand gear on it and you'll be just fine.

On this point - do not use Mulhorand. The stats you see are what they would be worth on YOU not your companion. On your companion they are a fraction of that (because of your companion's level). You can test it by putting on/removing them on your companion and seeing how little the stats change.

wintersmoke · June 2017

armadeonx said:

magenubbie said:
slap on some mulhorand gear on it and you'll be just fine.
On this point - do not use Mulhorand. The stats you see are what they would be worth on YOU not your companion. On your companion they are a fraction of that (because of your companion's level). You can test it by putting on/removing them on your companion and seeing how little the stats change.

Elemental infused is a better option.

metalicum1 · June 2017

I've been running the skirmish some more and about 17% of my runs end up being wiped completely by random reflect in 2nd or 3rd phase.

Also, while some of you might be fine with this, or tolerate this, no one has provided and design logic justification for this, which was my intention in the first place. The level of tolerance towards it is irrelevant to me. What I wanted was a clear explanation why an implementation of this feature made the game/skirmish better. So far, it has only been said that it doesn't make it that much worse (which is a non-argument), and that it incentivize less reckless and more cautious approach to the game, which is nice in theory but because many, MANY of the classes have variety of long DoT effects, and that the reflect does indeed cover those DoT effects applied before the reflect proc, it makes more cautious approach frankly completely useless, quite the contrary it makes it worse prolonging the phase by more cautious approach is an opportunity for more procs and party wipes.

I would love the devs to respond to this.

armadeonx · June 2017

Yeah they don't usually respond to threads in this section - in fact they probably don't read these sections a lot of the time.

I would suggest you take a healadin though, they have 360 degree heals that can out-heal most of your dots.

captflint · June 2017

Its such a garbage feature.
If it was a boss mechanic, that would be one thing. But there are a lit of mobs, spinning fire, red all over the ground, other adventurer's visuals all over the place.. You only see your health bar vanish to know its even there.

armadeonx · June 2017

It would be useful if they just flashed a warning before hand of course, or some kind of obvious visual effect.

ravenskya · June 2017

To be honest - I find it hilarious... it doesn't bother me in the least that it's there. Even though I kill me when it's up

wdj40 · June 2017

I run this with 100% success rate with PUG's, but I have to post a warning to the group that when the random deflect buff appears for the enemies not to attack them for a few seconds. I switch powers to Fox's>Binding>Hindering, my HR is set up so I can group heal some crazy numbers if needed to... This is one of those places where I just have to switch.

The most annoying thing for me is you cannot switch Loadouts so I have to manually change powers when the enemy deflect appears, hence needing a few seconds to switch.

Sometimes the group do not listen and when I have finished switching they are all dead, getting them up and keeping them alive is pretty easy too after that. Very rarely I have to end up soloing the enemy Deflect part.

armadeonx · June 2017

My prot pally uses Prism and Beacon - along with Healing Warmth & Burning Guidance. With a DC or healadin present, the sudden increase of incoming damage sends my healing and dps through the roof and (usually) nobody dies.

mamalion1234 · July 2017

So when you play on console you cant see the red shield floating on monsters? i didnt check IF is also on their buff bar but there is a shield floating when they reflect.

ravenskya · July 2017

On console we can't see the buff bar unless it's a boss - and then we can only see the first few buffs/debuffs.

For me, I've never seen the red shield - but other people in my group have mentioned seeing them blink and wondering if that's what it is

IG: Reflecting damage game design (Illusionist's Gambit)

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