Trickster Rogue Class Balance Suggestions

11314161819

Comments

  • rustlord
    rustlord Member Posts: 1,454 Arc User
    edited May 2017
    @demonmonger

    Don't take this as patronizing or being sarcastic, but I do agree where you're headed with toggled stealth. I toyed with the idea myself a few modules back. However the issues are very valid as well. I think to get around those, they could introduce the concept of sub-stealth: You gain invisibility without all the effects and buffs associated with stealth; either continue to or pause recharging of the stealth meter, but does not drain it; and you either can't attack or your next attack takes you out of sub-stealth. See Forest Ghost [iirc] for reference. Is it good enough of a tactical tool in both PvE and PvP to offset the possible cost of development? That's for somebody else to answer, but this is just what I'm thinking right now so it's not dismissed so easily.
  • mafiadelperro#8853
    mafiadelperro#8853 Member Posts: 56 Arc User
    > @rustlord said:
    > @demonmonger
    >
    > Don't take this as patronizing or being sarcastic, but I do agree where you're headed with toggled stealth. I toyed with the idea myself a few modules back. However the issues are very valid as well. I think to get around those, they could introduce the concept of sub-stealth: You gain invisibility without all the effects and buffs associated with stealth; either continue to or pause recharging of the stealth meter, but does not drain it; and you either can't attack or your next attack takes you out of sub-stealth. See Forest Ghost [iirc] for reference. Is it good enough of a tactical tool in both PvE and PvP to offset the possible cost of development? That's for somebody else to answer, but this is just what I'm thinking right now so it's not dismissed so easily.

    It is the case sounds pretty cool
  • rayrdan
    rayrdan Member Posts: 5,410 Arc User

    rustlord said:

    I like where @demonmonger is going with the toggle stealth. I've tinkered with the idea a while back, but what I'm seeing potential problem is our encounters are set up to consume stealth. This may take more work than we can afford to propose right now. How much would certain encounters, say Deft Strike, deplete stealth? Considering it's a utility power, so it shouldn't be much. How much should Lashing Blade? You can't very well have Lashing off, toggle stealth, followed up by Dazing. Then Impact Shot and a couple other powers are charged based, and get a free charge from stealth, how much depletion? If you meant that encounters should still consume the full bar, the point is moot so in that case toggle stealth may be easier to achieve; Is it worthwhile though? I do this when I'm out of combat by pressing my mount button twice.

    Basically it's either too much work to have encounters deplete only the right amount of stealth, and it's too little gain if it simply toggled stealth but power activation still consumed it.

    All encounters used from stealth mode should deplete stealth 100% as they do now, unless you are under lurkers assault.
    The toggle allows you to stealth to move from place to place without consuming all of your stealth bar.
    The toggle allows you control of stealth mode to turn it off as you chase someone down and turn it on before you attack.
    (as it is now, if you stealth and chase someone, most of the time stealth will end before you arrive at the enemy - wasting stealth completely)

    I also use the mount to deactivate my stealth, or my chair, but this should not be needed. Toggle is needed
    a toggle button is nice but does nothing to solve tr problems.
  • rustlord
    rustlord Member Posts: 1,454 Arc User
    edited May 2017
    @mafiadelperro I actually thought about it more and, honestly what good is that in PvE and I guess for PvP toggling stealth whenever is sort of just to troll people; hit, hide, hit hide wait for CD, hit hide.

    @rayrdan probably already seen the other thread but just in case for others to see: https://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter/#/discussion/1231317/tr-compiled-balance-suggestions/p1?new=1

    compiled list of suggestions there ought to make a difference already, basically now I think we're just going through whatever make sure no stone is left unturned
  • mafiadelperro#8853
    mafiadelperro#8853 Member Posts: 56 Arc User
    Yeah i liked but making the perfect it seen pretty hard what i mean is we are try to get rid of bugs i can imagine bugged stealth toggle making us not active some feat or encounter or worst making it multiply or something you know this neverwinter game is full of bugs and broken feat and power lol i dont know if i express correctly sorry about my english
  • demonmonger
    demonmonger Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 3,350 Arc User
    edited May 2017
    > @rustlord said:
    > @demonmonger
    >
    > Don't take this as patronizing or being sarcastic, but I do agree where you're headed with toggled stealth. I toyed with the idea myself a few modules back. However the issues are very valid as well. I think to get around those, they could introduce the concept of sub-stealth: You gain invisibility without all the effects and buffs associated with stealth; either continue to or pause recharging of the stealth meter, but does not drain it; and you either can't attack or your next attack takes you out of sub-stealth. See Forest Ghost [iirc] for reference. Is it good enough of a tactical tool in both PvE and PvP to offset the possible cost of development? That's for somebody else to answer, but this is just what I'm thinking right now so it's not dismissed so easily.

    I already said... stealth bar will flash when full, and when it's full all the bonuses would apply. There are no issues to worry about.
    Post edited by demonmonger on
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    I hate paying taxes! Why must I pay thousands of dollars in taxes when everything I buy is taxed anyways!
  • demonmonger
    demonmonger Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 3,350 Arc User
    > @sirjimbofrancis said:
    > > @demonmonger said:
    >
    > It won't be as you imagine...
    >
    > I didn't miss anything....
    >
    > Thanks for your sarcastic insulting remarks...
    >
    > Why won't it be as I imagine?
    > If you didn't miss anything, then why won't it be as I imagine?
    > Sarcastic remarks removed.

    Thanks for editing cretain remarks.

    Here is why the stealth toggle won't be overpowered.

    1. All stealth bonuses will only activate when stealth is used from a full bar
    When the bar is full it will flash to indicate it is ready.

    2. Using stealth before the bar is full won't allow for use of feats and bonuses. It is more of a positioning type thing

    3. Using an encounter while in stealth will always bring stealth bar to 0, unless the encounter otherwise specifies (just as they do now)

    4. In short nothing has to be changed with our encounter or feats for this stealth toggle to work or be implemented.

    5. I hope this clears up everything.

    Good luck everyone.. peace
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    I hate paying taxes! Why must I pay thousands of dollars in taxes when everything I buy is taxed anyways!
  • rustlord
    rustlord Member Posts: 1,454 Arc User
    edited May 2017
    So I haven't really gotten to the specifics of power adjustments, and I'm not caught up to everything said here and the other thread but here's what I'm thinking with regards to encounter powers;

    % base damage increase across the board based on unpopular use -

    Impact Shot +++
    Blitz +++
    Path of Blades +++
    Blade Flurry+++
    Disappearance+++
    Wicked Reminder++
    Dazing++
    Lashing++
    Deft Strike +

    * (+) to indicate how much i want it buffed without naming numbers
    * remove charges for Blade Flurry and just increase damage
    * remove damage scaling based on charges on Impact Shot that's totally outdated

  • blur#5900
    blur#5900 Member Posts: 490 Arc User
    @rustlord Increasing base damage would make us overpowered. I understand it seems fine from PvP point of view, for reasons, but in PvE this would result in making TR too strong. Small adjustments like Stealth severity suggestion, simplification of DF and SoD suggestion would probably make best PvE TR's on par with best of other classes. Any further buffs and we risk to get nerfed because we would be too strong.
    It is okay for some damage focused encounters which are underperforming, such as Blitz and Impact Shot. Path of the Blade needs to be fixed to proc weapon enchantments and then we can see if it needs base damage increase. I would not suggest removing charges from Blade Flurry, our cooldowns are long and we use all we have and are left with atwills only in mobs heavy fights, this is where Blade Flurry shines. The animation is a bit clunky and thats something that could be worked on. Utility focused encounters such as Disappearance, WR and Deft strike dont really need increase in damage since they are not damage focused.
    Dazing and Lashing should definitely not have base damage increased, cooldown reduction for Lashing has already been suggested and that is fine.
    Our Stealth severity suggestion is already an indirect buff for every (stealthed)encounter. This would buff PvP section too and the suggested ~20% additional ArPen from ability score is indirect buff for everything as well. Hopefully this alone is not too much to trigger a nerf.
    image
  • archangelzorak01
    archangelzorak01 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 324 Arc User
    The weapon enchant's procc'ing is super important IMO, specifically for Path of the Blade and Smoke Bomb.
    Neverwinter Module 6: The only MMO expansion in the history of MMO's to remove more content than it added.


  • rustlord
    rustlord Member Posts: 1,454 Arc User
    edited May 2017
    yes @blur that is all assuming that your stealth crit changes were to go through, the same could be said for all suggestions so far. if not? then a simple base increase is more than justified. I followed the changes on other classes on preview and base increase is a recurring pattern. I know the bias for dismissing this involves the amount of work put into this thread, but its presumptuous to say TR will be treated any different.. So wouldn't you rather be prepared with ideas if it goes completely that direction? Fact is, base increases involves changing a few constants in the code, what we've all suggested so far involves deeper system rework. stealth changes is by no means small... opposite even. but I dont care what changes go through to be honest, even if its not mine, as long as something does and it makes TR competitive again

    moreover there is little point arguing what is too strong because right now this is all fantasy. I know a few TRs are out there holding out till changes actually hit preview
  • blur#5900
    blur#5900 Member Posts: 490 Arc User
    @rustlord You have a point, we dont know what will be accepted and if anything at all will be accepted. As you said it may end up going in directions we didnt even think of. I know it seems like i am against many ideas here but i keep in mind the competition of the best of each class. The very best of PvE TR's are behind the best of other classes but they dont need much to be on par with them. All it takes is really a minimal buff and just a simplification of abilities which dont scale well with the content.
    If, by some miracle, devs decide to put in a lot of work in TR then all this is really helpful so the currently underperforming abilities get some spotlight to create even more variety.
    image
  • rustlord
    rustlord Member Posts: 1,454 Arc User
    edited May 2017
    @blur Got you. I've said so myself that class balance should definitely come from the top percentile of the players who know the class inside out, and I'm happy that that's the case for the PvE here. But my concern is that only competitive TR build isn't just behind the best of other classes in PvP, it's already way ahead of some and it's only bound to get out of hand. This, for one;

    Stealth overflow crit
    1: The most imminent concern is shocking execution. If I were using vorpal, now plus an overflow of 50-70% crit sev, it would be disastrous. Granted there is some diminishing factor with crit sev, but what I have is Fey, then I'm guessing it would be as if I'm using double enchants Fey+Vorpal; different place same disaster.
    2: It's proposed to have the damage clamped at 90% of targets max HP. on the one hand) GWF or SW wont always be at max HP or they die anyway from a secondary hit (SoD etc); on the other hand) OP/DC are always at max HP, you could bring the really good ones to 2% of their health and they'd heal back up in a blink of an eye. therefore it ends up being a nerf vs classes who were supposed to be taken down by this daily in the first place, and a buff against classes who are already at the biggest disadvantage
    3: Just nerf the power straight up by one way or another. This will have taken the only thing going for rogue in PvP. The overflow crit buff itself can hardly make the difference between piercing and physical damage (phy.dmg at PvP is at anywhere around 10~30% effectiveness after all mitigation layers). In PvP, physical damage has to be some kind of burst damage due to overhealing unfortunately many of our powers work by attrition like bleed smoke knives, unless you're saying I could burst someone with this overflow crit + lashing blade.. which i doubt you are. So then, from my point of view, it merits a base damage increase for certain encounter powers, something that may turn out bad for PvE;

    but I'm saying this stealth change matter may also turn out bad for PvP

  • rustlord
    rustlord Member Posts: 1,454 Arc User
    Well, so much for not arguing. Now and again I crucify myself... LOL

    But anyway I feel like I'm jinxing it when I post here. I just want TR to be good again! like any moment now.......
  • mafiadelperro#8853
    mafiadelperro#8853 Member Posts: 56 Arc User
    Is there a TR support group or discord chat somewhere i have a lot of question especially for pc TRs that can actually test things
  • demonmonger
    demonmonger Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 3,350 Arc User
    > @blur#5900 said:
    > @rustlord Increasing base damage would make us overpowered. I understand it seems fine from PvP point of view, for reasons, but in PvE this would result in making TR too strong. Small adjustments like Stealth severity suggestion, simplification of DF and SoD suggestion would probably make best PvE TR's on par with best of other classes. Any further buffs and we risk to get nerfed because we would be too strong.
    > It is okay for some damage focused encounters which are underperforming, such as Blitz and Impact Shot. Path of the Blade needs to be fixed to proc weapon enchantments and then we can see if it needs base damage increase. I would not suggest removing charges from Blade Flurry, our cooldowns are long and we use all we have and are left with atwills only in mobs heavy fights, this is where Blade Flurry shines. The animation is a bit clunky and thats something that could be worked on. Utility focused encounters such as Disappearance, WR and Deft strike dont really need increase in damage since they are not damage focused.
    > Dazing and Lashing should definitely not have base damage increased, cooldown reduction for Lashing has already been suggested and that is fine.
    > Our Stealth severity suggestion is already an indirect buff for every (stealthed)encounter. This would buff PvP section too and the suggested ~20% additional ArPen from ability score is indirect buff for everything as well. Hopefully this alone is not too much to trigger a nerf.

    Dude my lashing blade does 240000 damage in pvp but after mitigation it's 5000 damage...

    Gwf and gf hit for way more...

    We néed power increase on lashing blade and cool down reduction
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    I hate paying taxes! Why must I pay thousands of dollars in taxes when everything I buy is taxed anyways!
  • blur#5900
    blur#5900 Member Posts: 490 Arc User
    @demonmonger Yes 5k is low. There are PvP TR's who are able to hit 50k as well, but that is low too. No matter what we suggest for Lashing it wont change anything because of one other issue and that is healing which is way too good. Unless we change Lashing to become as good as SE itself. Healing is a general issue and until that is solved we dont have to bother with changing Lashing bcs it wont change anything in PvP while it will create a issue in PvE.
    image
  • rustlord
    rustlord Member Posts: 1,454 Arc User
    edited May 2017
    That's the case with me too, like I said physical damage is at around 10% ~ 30% effectiveness in PvP; However this, "Healing is a general issue and until that is solved we dont have to bother with changing [...]" I find this to be backwards thinking. The reality is overhealing will be a constant thing in PvP moving forward, so that's what a PvP TR has to be competitive against. You've said so yourself, "the best of PvE TRs are just a little behind the best of other classes in PvE", sounds like a first world problem to me. In PvP we're practically begging for scraps.. running pugmades/duos with other DPS to be their CB companion (I'm really good tho, I can CB 3x in 10 seconds..... I know someone could do 5); play coward hit n run maybe we'd kill a GWF. Really I can't put a number to how much buff we need, but a little 10% here 5 % there certainly isn't going to cut it

    Btw; my resume if someone wants to run pugmade
    I'm a legendary companion with courage breaker
    Can keep 1-2 people CB between nodes indefinitely or 3 if they Ice Knife my dummy
    Special skills; i can deft strike to the CW that Ice Knifes my dummy from a tower

    xD
  • blur#5900
    blur#5900 Member Posts: 490 Arc User
    @rustlord Those best in PvE are like only 2-3 players, others are quite behind that level, also average TR vs average player of other dps class is where the main problem lies, the gap is wider here than in best vs best.
    Hit and run play style is actually typical for a PvP rogue. Its not just in Neverwinter, i have played a PvP rogue in another game and it is the same play style, you have your one chance to eliminate the target and if u fail to do so run and hide and try it again. This is what Shocking Execution actually does, problem with SE is that it can be used too often.

    Buffing encounters to such amounts to actually do something in PvP would create a catastrophe in PvE. A nerf to healing in general should be suggested and it would solve more than buffing encounters for TR. As long as TR is not able to finish a target in small time window current healing will win.

    The solution i can think of to help with encounters in PvP is to, as suggested, add ~20% ArPen from ability scores or add a small amount of piercing damage to each encounter but i dont know if any of this would help considering the current overhealing. More ArPen would not hurt PvE nor would it help too much, adding piercing damage to each encounter is also fine from PvE point of view since that damage is neglectable.
    image
  • trgluestickz
    trgluestickz Member Posts: 1,136 Arc User
    edited May 2017
    blur#5900 said:

    @demonmonger Yes 5k is low. There are PvP TR's who are able to hit 50k as well, but that is low too. No matter what we suggest for Lashing it wont change anything because of one other issue and that is healing which is way too good. Unless we change Lashing to become as good as SE itself. Healing is a general issue and until that is solved we dont have to bother with changing Lashing bcs it wont change anything in PvP while it will create a issue in PvE.

    It should be possible to make lashing blade strong enough to be used as a really good finishing move or a way of knocking out a lot of HP at once so you bring their hp down enough to kill them with your other stuff.
    Its a single hit power like SE so if it did enough damage, it actually won't suffer much compared to a post rework (non one shot) SE from people's heals. Its attacks with multaple hits that are mostly subject to healing issues. The main thing healingwise that could happen to it is if you get really unlucky and the hit itself lifesteals, that happens with SE from time to time too.
    I don't want to see it return to pre nerf levels of OP when it could one shot people just like SE does now but I would like ot see it become viable again. Its possible that the damage buffs TR will get will acomplish this without directly adjusting the power but hard to be sure.
    --
    PVP Rogue,
    --[----- "Your friendly neighborhood spawn of Satan." -----]--
    ----------------------------------------------------------------
    Main Character: Hurricane Marigolds (Rogue WK & Assassin)
    Ingame Handle: trgluestickz
    Discord Name: Hurricane🌀Marigolds#2563
    Guilds: She Looked LVL 18 & Essence of Aggression
    Alliances: Imperium & Order of the Silent Shroud
    Platform: PC
  • trgluestickz
    trgluestickz Member Posts: 1,136 Arc User
    edited May 2017
    blur#5900 said:

    @rustlord Those best in PvE are like only 2-3 players, others are quite behind that level, also average TR vs average player of other dps class is where the main problem lies, the gap is wider here than in best vs best.
    Hit and run play style is actually typical for a PvP rogue. Its not just in Neverwinter, i have played a PvP rogue in another game and it is the same play style, you have your one chance to eliminate the target and if u fail to do so run and hide and try it again. This is what Shocking Execution actually does, problem with SE is that it can be used too often.

    Buffing encounters to such amounts to actually do something in PvP would create a catastrophe in PvE. A nerf to healing in general should be suggested and it would solve more than buffing encounters for TR. As long as TR is not able to finish a target in small time window current healing will win.

    The solution i can think of to help with encounters in PvP is to, as suggested, add ~20% ArPen from ability scores or add a small amount of piercing damage to each encounter but i dont know if any of this would help considering the current overhealing. More ArPen would not hurt PvE nor would it help too much, adding piercing damage to each encounter is also fine from PvE point of view since that damage is neglectable.

    @blur, what you discribe is more like an assassin-style rogue. Not all of them are intended play this way though you are right that assassin style rogues are common in MMOs. Scoundrel for example, is not natually a hit and run style rogue, they are designed to keep up the pressure against a single opponent. Many sabotuers also played as wittle down builds in the past where instead of focusing on big hits that take time to regain, they focuced on a series of little hits and some trickey to kill. The best example of this I can remember was a permastealth WK from mod 6, this WK was almost constantly hitting his opponent from stealth with a stream of daggers + other ranged attacks, slowly wittling his opponent down.
    In d&d where a lot of mmos draw some of their inspiration from, this was also the case. There were many kinds of rogue and not all of them fit the discription you gave.

    Your idea of providing 20% armor pen to our ability scores and adding small amounts of piercing damage to TR encounters would work well, ty for this sugestion. I doubt that 20% armor pen alone would be enough so both ideas on some level should be utilized.
    --
    PVP Rogue,
    --[----- "Your friendly neighborhood spawn of Satan." -----]--
    ----------------------------------------------------------------
    Main Character: Hurricane Marigolds (Rogue WK & Assassin)
    Ingame Handle: trgluestickz
    Discord Name: Hurricane🌀Marigolds#2563
    Guilds: She Looked LVL 18 & Essence of Aggression
    Alliances: Imperium & Order of the Silent Shroud
    Platform: PC
  • trgluestickz
    trgluestickz Member Posts: 1,136 Arc User
    edited May 2017

    Is there a TR support group or discord chat somewhere i have a lot of question especially for pc TRs that can actually test things

    No idea for chat channels, I know there used to be TR specific channels but I think most if not all of those died out in past mods. I have not heard of any that are currently active.

    If you make freinds with other guilds that have build testers in them, some of those allow guests on their teamspeak or discord servers.

    You can also PM individual build testers in game and ask your questions. I doubt most would turn down a conversation.
    --
    PVP Rogue,
    --[----- "Your friendly neighborhood spawn of Satan." -----]--
    ----------------------------------------------------------------
    Main Character: Hurricane Marigolds (Rogue WK & Assassin)
    Ingame Handle: trgluestickz
    Discord Name: Hurricane🌀Marigolds#2563
    Guilds: She Looked LVL 18 & Essence of Aggression
    Alliances: Imperium & Order of the Silent Shroud
    Platform: PC
  • trgluestickz
    trgluestickz Member Posts: 1,136 Arc User
    edited May 2017
    rustlord said:



    I'm a legendary companion with courage breaker

    xD

    This might be the best discription I've ever seen for explaining the primary thing TRs are useful for in pvp. We can't do our job as a damage dealer anywhere near as good as other classes so we behave more like a support class in difficult matches. In easier matches, we can be decent killers if we have SE but other classes still outperform us by a mile.
    --
    PVP Rogue,
    --[----- "Your friendly neighborhood spawn of Satan." -----]--
    ----------------------------------------------------------------
    Main Character: Hurricane Marigolds (Rogue WK & Assassin)
    Ingame Handle: trgluestickz
    Discord Name: Hurricane🌀Marigolds#2563
    Guilds: She Looked LVL 18 & Essence of Aggression
    Alliances: Imperium & Order of the Silent Shroud
    Platform: PC
  • blur#5900
    blur#5900 Member Posts: 490 Arc User
    @trgluestickz You are right, not all are hit and run but they dont work currently due to overhealing, players are able to get back almost 100% of their HP in 1-2 or 3 seconds. Healing should be nerfed for other builds to work but that would probably require damage to be toned down a bit as well. Also you are right, additional ArPen and piercing damage for all encounters would not be too much as long as healing stays as is but considering that SE should still be most powerful single hit ability in PvP even after rework it needs attention and balance. We might kill the 1hit kill SE but we might create 2hit kill encounter+SE.
    The amount of piercing damage to suggest for encounters is probably a small number considering that there could be a combination of additional ArPen from ability scores, ArPen stacking build, SE(reworked) and that boost from piercing damage for encounters. All this together should not make the class too powerful.
    I know there are TR's who stack ArPen in PvP and perform really well, also my PvP knowledge for this game is almost 0 so i cant think of a balanced number for the amount of piercing damage as addition to encounters.
    image
  • trgluestickz
    trgluestickz Member Posts: 1,136 Arc User
    edited May 2017
    blur#5900 said:

    @trgluestickz You are right, not all are hit and run but they dont work currently due to overhealing, players are able to get back almost 100% of their HP in 1-2 or 3 seconds. Healing should be nerfed for other builds to work but that would probably require damage to be toned down a bit as well. Also you are right, additional ArPen and piercing damage for all encounters would not be too much as long as healing stays as is but considering that SE should still be most powerful single hit ability in PvP even after rework it needs attention and balance. We might kill the 1hit kill SE but we might create 2hit kill encounter+SE.
    The amount of piercing damage to suggest for encounters is probably a small number considering that there could be a combination of additional ArPen from ability scores, ArPen stacking build, SE(reworked) and that boost from piercing damage for encounters. All this together should not make the class too powerful.
    I know there are TR's who stack ArPen in PvP and perform really well, also my PvP knowledge for this game is almost 0 so i cant think of a balanced number for the amount of piercing damage as addition to encounters.

    The only build I know of in pvp that sucessfully stacks armor pen is a WK bloodbath spamming build, its the same build @rustlord plays and if the X 2 passive bug gets fixed this build will no longer be very powerful.
    Have you seen any MIs in recent mods with armor pen builds? I can't think of a single one.
    --
    PVP Rogue,
    --[----- "Your friendly neighborhood spawn of Satan." -----]--
    ----------------------------------------------------------------
    Main Character: Hurricane Marigolds (Rogue WK & Assassin)
    Ingame Handle: trgluestickz
    Discord Name: Hurricane🌀Marigolds#2563
    Guilds: She Looked LVL 18 & Essence of Aggression
    Alliances: Imperium & Order of the Silent Shroud
    Platform: PC
  • trgluestickz
    trgluestickz Member Posts: 1,136 Arc User
    blur#5900 said:

    @trgluestickz You are right, not all are hit and run but they dont work currently due to overhealing, players are able to get back almost 100% of their HP in 1-2 or 3 seconds. Healing should be nerfed for other builds to work but that would probably require damage to be toned down a bit as well. Also you are right, additional ArPen and piercing damage for all encounters would not be too much as long as healing stays as is but considering that SE should still be most powerful single hit ability in PvP even after rework it needs attention and balance. We might kill the 1hit kill SE but we might create 2hit kill encounter+SE.
    The amount of piercing damage to suggest for encounters is probably a small number considering that there could be a combination of additional ArPen from ability scores, ArPen stacking build, SE(reworked) and that boost from piercing damage for encounters. All this together should not make the class too powerful.
    I know there are TR's who stack ArPen in PvP and perform really well, also my PvP knowledge for this game is almost 0 so i cant think of a balanced number for the amount of piercing damage as addition to encounters.

    I'm not sure what the best number for adding piercing damage to encounters is either. I would still sugest this alonside the armor pen recommendation in the compiled post. You don't need to know the exact numbers to sugest for everything, the devs just need the idea planted in their head.
    --
    PVP Rogue,
    --[----- "Your friendly neighborhood spawn of Satan." -----]--
    ----------------------------------------------------------------
    Main Character: Hurricane Marigolds (Rogue WK & Assassin)
    Ingame Handle: trgluestickz
    Discord Name: Hurricane🌀Marigolds#2563
    Guilds: She Looked LVL 18 & Essence of Aggression
    Alliances: Imperium & Order of the Silent Shroud
    Platform: PC
  • trgluestickz
    trgluestickz Member Posts: 1,136 Arc User
    edited May 2017
    rustlord said:

    blur#5900 said:

    3. CB can be kept up permanently. At least some down time would go towards balance.

    @blur I'd like to outline and maybe support @demonmonger 's point here with CB that, for anyone who PvP worth their salt, they'd tell us that courage breaker is not a TR balance problem. It's a GWF/SW only problem because their shift doesn't work against it. On a regular BiS 1v1, which is where most class balance in PvP should be based from, CB is nowhere near as effective as it is in a group fight. But if we wanted to tackle the odds and ends of a "controller role" in PvP, CB is nowhere near as bad as, let's say, the "cancerous trapper" or Indomitable Str/Crescendo/Flourish when you're about to be ganked to smithereens.

    In that sense, CB is fine. If it should be made so that Sprint and Shadowslip ignores the slow, then that's totally fine. To further stress this topic, the duration problem is another non-TR problem concerning global AP gain that is a class-wide cancer on its own.

    PS: If it's not too much to add, it would be nice to have the tooltip for CB corrected once and for all. One of the older TRs here did the proper math for the damage reduction component, that is in reality not 30/60/90/120%. (Lookup to T.Elven tooltip change). To prove a point, just the other day I was one shotted by a IV GWF under CB. He had full stacks but I have 180K HP. So where was my 120% debuff?
    @rustlord

    This is a good point. In all honesty, CB in practice isn't as OP as its made out to be, its what its capable of that is conserning. CB can be maintained 100% of the time if a TR so chooses.

    In teamfights, there is little incentive to perma CB the same target more than a few times in a row for most matches. Most of the time, you will need to move to a new platform or choose a new target after a bit.

    Even in duels, a TR typically will use their other daily power from time to time instead of nothing but CB for the entire duel. BB if you take too much damage and need to aviod takign a deathblow or SE to wound or kill the target for example.

    CB's more OP uses are a dormant hazard most of the time but it does occationally become an issue. It could become a much more pressing issue post TR rework since TRs in theory will be strong again. TRs having their cake and eating it too with both an unadjusted CB + their damage being significantly increased + other improvements may not turn out well.
    Your sugestion buff to GWF's and SW's ability to counter CB would indeed be a good way to indirectly adjust CB. I don't know if it will be enough or not since again, CB can still be maintained 100% of the time.

    The slow for all classes except SW and GWF is indeed not op. GFs might need to be added to the CB disadvantaged list but they already have enough going for them that this weakspot doesn't matter much. Other classes can dodge around to easily survive the CB slow.

    The slow makes it an amazing tactical ability in premade vs premades in particular though there isn't a lot wrong with this.

    I've noticed quite often that CB's damage reduction doesn't seem to be as strong as you'd think it would be but I didn't realize it was because the tooltip wasn't accurate. I can think of many incidents where I have been killed by various classes under the effects of CB. I tread carefully even when people are CBed as a precaution since their damage is weakened some but still a threat.

    @blur

    It would be good to add the issues with CB's deceptive 120% damage reduction percentage to the TR compilation thread.
    If CB is shortnened, maybe that 120% percentage should be fixed too so its actually 120%.
    --
    PVP Rogue,
    --[----- "Your friendly neighborhood spawn of Satan." -----]--
    ----------------------------------------------------------------
    Main Character: Hurricane Marigolds (Rogue WK & Assassin)
    Ingame Handle: trgluestickz
    Discord Name: Hurricane🌀Marigolds#2563
    Guilds: She Looked LVL 18 & Essence of Aggression
    Alliances: Imperium & Order of the Silent Shroud
    Platform: PC
  • rustlord
    rustlord Member Posts: 1,454 Arc User
    edited May 2017
    @blur

    Can't there be a buff to overall encounter damage in some way that won't affect PvE? Help me out tho cuz I'm really getting some mixed messages here; so if there are 2-3 competitive TRs in PvE, if all things were fair and even, let's say they're superstar dps TRs. I'm sure other classes got those too, right? So then if we're looking at the average spectrum, it seems as though a bigger buff is needed so that average TR will = average GWF. Furthermore, pve encounters are pretty much set in stone; dazing, lashing, smoke, sometimes WR or whatever. What I'm pushing for is a large base increase on more tactical powers like Deft/Shadow Strike, Impact, Path, Blitz etc. Certainly you wouldn't slot these in the first place if you wanted to do dps in pve; or maybe if they were buffed they'd become an option

    @trgluestickz

    I was one of the first ones to test permaCB back when flail snail was in -- this WK thing is a bit new. I know I've always been a WK fanboi since ever but it was never viable until now (maybe a little). Basically for tankers get them under CB and DF pow pow pow with oppressive darkness/II slotted. II grants CA and courage slows them for DF, so with a properly set up rotation SoD could be bursty. so long as I keep them locked my DF can hit something other than air -- which brings me to some of the suggested changes;

    So I'm thinking if oppressive (600~800 piercing EWWWW) gets a proper buff, DF made to be more manageable, our daze powers properly grant CA, I could maybe not rely on CB so much for that. It can be a rotation of smoke+lurkers+DF+SoD. Free arpen is going to be cool, tho I think extra piercing on "all powers" could be kind of weird.
  • rustlord
    rustlord Member Posts: 1,454 Arc User
    Personally I'd be reluctant to go with piercing on encounters.. it stinks of Piercing Blades all over again. Then we'd be Combat HR 2.0 tears will flow, and we'll go back to being trappers *ahem* I mean legendary CB companions
  • blur#5900
    blur#5900 Member Posts: 490 Arc User
    @rustlord When it comes to average players a simplification is all they need and Stealth severity would help them more than it would help superstars. ArPen and piercing damage is a way which wont affect PvE. If Razor Action gets fixed or changed to as suggested i guess that Bloodbath spamming would not be really effective anymore(unless there is something else except RA involved), also if SE is toned down encounters indeed need a buff. Sure the damage focused encounters with additional piercing damage would be nice but i dont see why add piercing damage to utility focused encounters.

    @trgluestickz What exactly is the problem with CB's damage reduction % ?
    image