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'Message From The Neverwinter Management Team' - Questions.

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  • ejziponkenejziponken Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 887 Arc User
    silence1x said:

    arabatur said:

    There needs to be some sort guide for players so that they do not fall foul of the data collection metric.

    If they give us this info then the bot creators can tailor/update their scripts to not get flagged (or at least not as often). It's a problem that needs solving for sure but any attempt at a solution will just expose more holes to the formula used. I don't envy the devs working on this task.
    A problem like this should be solved. But not at the expense of legit players.

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  • dupeksdupeks Member Posts: 1,789 Arc User

    They cant do that. Part of the reason for a ban isnt just to lock out access to accounts. But to lock out access to money and loot on that account. That does more harm to the gold sellers then the loss of the accounts themselves. If you temporarily unbanned them to do further checks. You basically give them a free window to move all their cash, loot, or what have you. To another safe account.

    I respectfully disagree.

    There are no simple anonymous transfers in this game. Most items have unique identifiers and can be tracked across accounts. Additionally, there's pretty strong circumstantial evidence that they can bring up trade, chat, and mail logs for at least some period of time.

    So sure, it would give botters an opportunity to try to move their reserves. And it would take more time / effort to hunt those down after. Maybe some would be very clever and would get away with some of their reserves.

    Regardless, even given the above, I still think unbanning all and reviewing one-by-one is the "right thing to do". I think that the good will it would have inspired in the community would have benefited them far more than removing a small fraction of bot reserves.
  • asterotgasterotg Member Posts: 1,742 Arc User
    Wow, I have to admire this logic. Ban ppl and dont tell them why, so no one could abuse this knowledge, to avoid a ban.

    There are some basic rules in most civilized countries. Lets agree, that a ban is a punishment. If you are living anywhere in the western civilisation, you cant be punished without a law prohibiting that behavior. BTW claiming, that someone was botting is not enough, when the used metric clearly does not reflect the general term.
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  • jumpingmorksjumpingmorks Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 876 Arc User
    rhodah said:

    Cryptic having gamemasters in game would help them to find real botters more than mass ban waves.

    They have community moderators that are not paid staff so I'd like to see this too. The only MMO I have played previously to this was Everquest 1 (now talk about grindfest), they had community gamesmasters that could help players who had been pushed off the map (the boats were terrrible for this, you;d get on one and end up 20,000 leagues under the sea) but they could also watch for spammers/gold sellers.
  • unsininen#8199 unsininen Member Posts: 2 Arc User
    They could be paid in Zen or titles. Making them help people would get them to update the wiki also.
  • plasticbatplasticbat Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 9,667 Arc User
    edited May 2017
    I can live with something some basic principal as simple as this.

    If you do not use any automated program to play your character, you are not a bot.

    Is this statement true? If this is true, I can live with that because if I am banned because of botting, I have something to stand on to plead my case.
    Otherwise, I can't plead my case because I really don't know where the line is.

    No, this is not perfect but at least I know where the line is. I can be accused wrongly but I can accept false positive can be part of life.
  • sockmunkeysockmunkey Member Posts: 4,622 Arc User
    dupeks said:

    They cant do that. Part of the reason for a ban isnt just to lock out access to accounts. But to lock out access to money and loot on that account. That does more harm to the gold sellers then the loss of the accounts themselves. If you temporarily unbanned them to do further checks. You basically give them a free window to move all their cash, loot, or what have you. To another safe account.

    I respectfully disagree.

    There are no simple anonymous transfers in this game. Most items have unique identifiers and can be tracked across accounts. Additionally, there's pretty strong circumstantial evidence that they can bring up trade, chat, and mail logs for at least some period of time.

    So sure, it would give botters an opportunity to try to move their reserves. And it would take more time / effort to hunt those down after. Maybe some would be very clever and would get away with some of their reserves.

    Regardless, even given the above, I still think unbanning all and reviewing one-by-one is the "right thing to do". I think that the good will it would have inspired in the community would have benefited them far more than removing a small fraction of bot reserves.
    I think you're being naive. If I were to tell someone that they would be unbanned for just one week, then permanently banned. Do you honestly think that they wouldn't use that time to deliver the largest potential FU to the game that they could? You would, I would, anyone would. We would strip our characters bare. We would give away or sell what we could. We would rant, rage, vent, and troll until we were forced out. Now, imagine what people might do, if they had the skills and resources to really cause trouble. People like the gold sellers who arn't just losing entertainment, but cash money. Would you really want to give them any opportunity to come back cause harm?

    As far as tracking the transactions, that is just silly. We have never seen Cryptic actually show they can or are willing to do so. How many times have we players looked at the auction house and see dozens if not hundreds of suspicious sales with no action taken or follow up. Even if Cryptic was willing or able to track such trades or sales, who will do it? That same people you want to devote time to do all these investigations for the original bans? How much more time and effort do you think that would take? How much would that end up bogging the entire process down? And that is assuming there is data even worth tracking. It's not hard to imagine someone knowing they will be banned for good and only have a few days to do something about it. Flooding the AH with as much legitimate sales as possible, just to see how many innocent people they might be able to take down with them. Why not? It would provide a massive FU to the company while slowing down and confusing any tracking they might try.

    Ban waves only have teeth if they are a surprise. If they catch the gold sellers and botters flat footed. You let them back, knowing its only a temporary reprieve. You are inviting chaos. I fail to see how subjecting the entire player base to that is anything close to the right thing to do.


  • btairbornebtairborne Member Posts: 352 Arc User
    What's amazing to me is nobody has thought of macroing being against TOS and the proliferation of gamer keyboards and mice with those functions.

    My guess is this is probably the crime of the "innocents." Hit a button and yay, there's your combo. Hey you can do it in an infinite loop until you press another key to end it! Niiiice...only the elite er dedicated know these tricks right?



  • beckylunaticbeckylunatic Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 14,231 Arc User

    What's amazing to me is nobody has thought of macroing being against TOS and the proliferation of gamer keyboards and mice with those functions.

    My guess is this is probably the crime of the "innocents." Hit a button and yay, there's your combo. Hey you can do it in an infinite loop until you press another key to end it! Niiiice...only the elite er dedicated know these tricks right?

    They've given these away on their own community streams:

    http://www.roccat.org/en-US/Products/Gaming-Mice/Kone-EMP/

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  • btairbornebtairborne Member Posts: 352 Arc User
    keyboards do way more
  • reg1981reg1981 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,375 Arc User
    I'd like to know if there was one task that triggered this or a collection of data. I've read the standard responses that were sent out to the community, I understand the mechanics of your botted ban hammer can't be shared, but throw us a bone! What can we do to avoid this happening to us? There is a nice zen charge promotion coming up, I want those 5 coal wards + + +, but I don't want to worry about a ban for a false positive after doing so!
  • ghoulz66ghoulz66 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 3,748 Arc User
    People that are playing legit, being worried about being banned for *playing* the wrong way.

    This is getting stupid now. Wtf kind of game has players worried about playing the damn thing?! The management of this game has grown to disgusting levels. Do they think we're stupid and forgot all about the winter event fiasco?
  • urabaskurabask Member Posts: 2,923 Arc User
    edited May 2017

    keyboards do way more

    Wut. You can make macros for mice that include keystrokes. The only limitation mice have is the number of buttons and then you get something like a Naga and suddenly you've got 12 keys to program.
    Post edited by urabask on
  • niadanniadan Member Posts: 1,635 Arc User
    edited May 2017
    This is simple to understand. Cast a big net. Those banned accounts that scream enough are labled "dedicated players" simply caught in the net. The actual harmful botting gold sellers do not stick their heads up and are thus squashed. Probably very effective at swatting a large group of botters at once, but also very effective at pissing off "dedicated" players.
  • armadeonxarmadeonx Member Posts: 4,793 Arc User
    Whilst I agree that disclosing the exact methods of detection and functions that are monitored would be detrimental to their ability to detect botting, it is both fair and prudent for players to be given guidelines on what is and is not acceptable.

    Working on the assumption that "normal players 'do this' and only bots 'do that' (and therefore we don't need to inform players of what is 'lawful use') is obviously not correct - otherwise bans would not have been reviewed. This happens on every banwave.

    There must be some middle ground where Cryptic gives us useful guidelines so we can remain "lawful citizens". After all, I'm sure the real botters are far more aware of the 'hidden rules' and pitfalls/bot-traps than any regular player.
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  • kzone#2148 kzone Member Posts: 19 Arc User
    > @armadeonx said:
    > Whilst I agree that disclosing the exact methods of detection and functions that are monitored would be detrimental to their ability to detect botting, it is both fair and prudent for players to be given guidelines on what is and is not acceptable.
    >
    > Working on the assumption that "normal players 'do this' and only bots 'do that' (and therefore we don't need to inform players of what is 'lawful use') is obviously not correct - otherwise bans would not have been reviewed. This happens on every banwave.
    >
    > There must be some middle ground where Cryptic gives us useful guidelines so we can remain "lawful citizens". After all, I'm sure the real botters are far more aware of the 'hidden rules' and pitfalls/bot-traps than any regular player.

    Just think about that for a minute. It should be very obvious what a bot is. If you are not obviously botting, you shouldn't have to worry. The fact that they are banning innocent folks and folks are worried that their normal activities are bot like should be a major warning flag about this game in general.

    Clearly whatever "stats" they are gathering, has very little to do with detecting bots, but with interpreting someone's playstyle as being botlike. That is simply madness. Who would want to risk spending any cash on a game where they can and will ban you just because they don't like your playstyle.
  • armadeonxarmadeonx Member Posts: 4,793 Arc User

    > @armadeonx said:

    > Whilst I agree that disclosing the exact methods of detection and functions that are monitored would be detrimental to their ability to detect botting, it is both fair and prudent for players to be given guidelines on what is and is not acceptable.

    >

    > Working on the assumption that "normal players 'do this' and only bots 'do that' (and therefore we don't need to inform players of what is 'lawful use') is obviously not correct - otherwise bans would not have been reviewed. This happens on every banwave.

    >

    > There must be some middle ground where Cryptic gives us useful guidelines so we can remain "lawful citizens". After all, I'm sure the real botters are far more aware of the 'hidden rules' and pitfalls/bot-traps than any regular player.



    Just think about that for a minute. It should be very obvious what a bot is. If you are not obviously botting, you shouldn't have to worry. The fact that they are banning innocent folks and folks are worried that their normal activities are bot like should be a major warning flag about this game in general.



    Clearly whatever "stats" they are gathering, has very little to do with detecting bots, but with interpreting someone's playstyle as being botlike. That is simply madness. Who would want to risk spending any cash on a game where they can and will ban you just because they don't like your playstyle.

    The point is that although 'a bot is a bot and a human is a human' the method of discerning one from the other purely by the metrics associated with their play style is not quite so cut and dry.

    Bot makers obviously attempt to make their automated routines appear as 'human-like' as possible.

    Hence my comment.
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  • kzone#2148 kzone Member Posts: 19 Arc User
    > @armadeonx said:
    > > @armadeonx said:
    >
    > > Whilst I agree that disclosing the exact methods of detection and functions that are monitored would be detrimental to their ability to detect botting, it is both fair and prudent for players to be given guidelines on what is and is not acceptable.
    >
    > >
    >
    > > Working on the assumption that "normal players 'do this' and only bots 'do that' (and therefore we don't need to inform players of what is 'lawful use') is obviously not correct - otherwise bans would not have been reviewed. This happens on every banwave.
    >
    > >
    >
    > > There must be some middle ground where Cryptic gives us useful guidelines so we can remain "lawful citizens". After all, I'm sure the real botters are far more aware of the 'hidden rules' and pitfalls/bot-traps than any regular player.
    >
    >
    >
    > Just think about that for a minute. It should be very obvious what a bot is. If you are not obviously botting, you shouldn't have to worry. The fact that they are banning innocent folks and folks are worried that their normal activities are bot like should be a major warning flag about this game in general.
    >
    >
    >
    > Clearly whatever "stats" they are gathering, has very little to do with detecting bots, but with interpreting someone's playstyle as being botlike. That is simply madness. Who would want to risk spending any cash on a game where they can and will ban you just because they don't like your playstyle.
    >
    > The point is that although 'a bot is a bot and a human is a human' the method of discerning one from the other purely by the metrics associated with their play style is not quite so cut and dry.
    >
    > Bot makers obviously attempt to make their automated routines appear as 'human-like' as possible.
    >
    > Hence my comment.

    But it's unacceptable for them to ban human players under the premise that 90% of those doing an action are bots. You can't throw out a wide net like that. Especially not in a game with repetitive tasks that can make the most innocent of players look like a bot. Unless they can be 100% accurate, they have no business banning folks.

    Now going after gold sellers, that's a different story. If they spend half as much energy going after them, they can be 100% accurate.
  • usernamefatigueusernamefatigue Member Posts: 60 Arc User
    I wasn't banned but want to provide my feedback as a "dedicated player" and an observer of this giant mess. Because I feel as though this could easily have been me.

    What this has done for me is to make me insecure about continuing to play this game. Do I want to invest time and money building a character just to have some rampant script decide I'm doing something wrong and leaving me with little to no recourse outside of a level 1 support wall? I'm really hesitant to even go play now; this last batch of unwarranted bans has tainted the whole game for me.

    I have watched mis-firing bans like this happen again and again (the Winterfest mess, for one) and this one has just served to reinforce to me how very badly these processes are implemented and how much I am at risk of losing my account for no reason at all.

    My feedback: Because of what I have witnessed and am currently witnessing, I'm loathe to spend any money or even time on this game now. I would like to see some honesty and some open attempt at process improvement to make me feel more confident in this company and this game again.
  • dragoness10dragoness10 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 780 Arc User
    I thought I wanted to post more of this and that, but there's not much left.

    Leftover crumbs are:

    - Players are steadilly being allowed back in.
    - No proven truth to the rumor keybinds lead to bans.
    - The inability to report a spam mail by button press with the error message "cannot find PLAYER, please provide the [email protected]" meant they were already banned bot.
    - It's not some conspiracy to remove awesome PvPers.
    - ZAX went stagnant, but is gaining turnover speed again....slow but it's there.

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  • loboguildloboguild Member Posts: 2,371 Arc User
    I think one major issue devs run into with these ban waves is that your casual player is largely unaffected by the botting of others. Let's be honest, I don't give a HAMSTER about them. It's not bothering me at all. Yes, they probably have lots and lots of ADs, but I know my chars are leveled legitimately, which is an equally strong feeling. More than that, you don't rob yourself of content because this game is about getting to BIS. There's nothing left once you get there. Maybe except PVP, but trollolol.

    So while players probably appreciate that cheaters are banned, most like myself also think "who cares really". You could even make a point that botters help the community in providing better geared chars to beat content and drive down prices of RP. So naturally any miscues on these ban waves will backfire in a big way. The devs have little to gain, but much to lose. Botters hurt them more then "us".​​
  • demonmongerdemonmonger Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 3,350 Arc User
    There are two types of possible botters.

    Idle bots / active bots

    To check an idle bot all you need to do is create a pop up box that doesn't not allow them to log out, move, chat, or any game functions until the check has been completed.

    Check could be as simple as putting the correct shapes in a box, or clicking a color pattern in order requested.

    --------------------

    To check active bots all you need to do is use the cleric chains encounter to bind them in place plus put a pop up box around them that will not allow them to do anything until the check has been completed.

    ---------------------

    Devs can warp players to different places in game.

    All those who fail the bot check should be warped to a place for bots . While in the bot jail you cannot que for any maps, cannot chat in guild or alliance, cannot whisper, just use say chat to communicate with other botters near you or the dev that keeps an eye on the bot dungeon.
    No trades will be allowed also.
    People that were tagged and warped as bots that are not bots can be released by the dev in this prison area. Once released you can return to normal life all functions working.

    -------------------

    I hope you consider this as a viable option. An active dev flying through game warping to players to bot check is more effective than random automated bot check systems.
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  • weaver936weaver936 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 443 Arc User
    A couple points" Just because everyone is doing it. doesn't make it right... just because the top guilds/alliances are doing it, doesn't make it right... just because you don't like the "slow way" of doing things and the grind is "unbearable or too much.. does not mean you have the right to use unfair things to make it faster or easier. And just because you think your buddy is fun and friendly and generaous doesn't mean they weren't breakign the rules.

    Just because the a Community is SO corrupt and crooked doesn't mean the Devs should ignore the problem. and just because they have decided to have MERCY on some people.. and show a but of GRACE doesn't mean they are admitting they did something wrong.

    It's really a shameful state of affairs when the Devs get criticized for being merciful or giving the probabtionary or grace period.

    If you HAVE NOT read the TERMS OF SERVICE and say that the Devs haven't said what you can and can't do to avoid getting banned.. then you have no right to claim they haven't made the rules clear. At some point.. common sense should tell you that something like dieing and wall hacking to get back into the boss fight, when every other dungeon doesn't allow that is probably an Exploit... expecially when the Devs already tried to fix stop that from happening previously (just an example).

    Just because people are so clueless about simple Morality does not mean taht the Devs are to blame for the bans... *rolls eyes*
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  • weaver936weaver936 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 443 Arc User
    loboguild said:

    I think one major issue devs run into with these ban waves is that your casual player is largely unaffected by the botting of others. Let's be honest, I don't give a HAMSTER about them. It's not bothering me at all. Yes, they probably have lots and lots of ADs, but I know my chars are leveled legitimately, which is an equally strong feeling. More than that, you don't rob yourself of content because this game is about getting to BIS. There's nothing left once you get there. Maybe except PVP, but trollolol.



    So while players probably appreciate that cheaters are banned, most like myself also think "who cares really". You could even make a point that botters help the community in providing better geared chars to beat content and drive down prices of RP. So naturally any miscues on these ban waves will backfire in a big way. The devs have little to gain, but much to lose. Botters hurt them more then "us".​​

    You see the 15 - 30 million AD legendary mounts up for sale? Know why that is? Botting or exploits. The more people with stupid amounts of AD there are out there.. the more BiS items cost on the AH... because some people actually can afford to pay that amount of ad and the seller doesn't have to wait very long to sell at that price if therte are more and more botters (people with stupid amounts of ad).
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  • hamsterioustoon#6983 hamsterioustoon Member Posts: 7 Arc User
    jaegernl said:

    ... Prominent members of the Neverwinter community and long-time players have been forcibly removed from said community. Some of them may have botted, some of them may have been collateral damage. The community out-cry over this has been large, both on the forums and in game, where it has been the topic of discussion in many channels, where I've seldom encountered a message endorsing the recent move. I'm inclined to use a bit of hyperbole, and paraphrasing historians of the Stalinist Terror, "Prominent members of the Neverwinter community " who hasn't seen one of their friends, guildies or familiar faces in a channel see disappear.


    There's a couple of issues with this paragraph. Firstly, the internal logic - we stand behind our decision but are reversing it - is hilarious. Which is it? You can't have both. Secondly, what does 'probation' mean? Either someone commits a bannable offense, or they don't. And, lastly, the issue of 'dedicated players', which has inspired this post in the first place.

    'Dedicated players' has to be the vaguest term to come out of a marketing department yet.

    I 'll try to answer using your own words.

    "Prominent members of the Neverwinter community and long-time players have been forcibly removed from said community. Some of them may have botted"

    90% of them have botted now,or in the past.

    "The community out-cry over this has been large, both on the forums and in game,"

    Has been large cause we go to your first term ..."Prominent members of the Neverwinter community "

    "I've seldom encountered a message endorsing the recent move"

    Going against the trend can have a cost in NW worlds.Where the botters are...""Prominent members of the Neverwinter community " and control the view of the facts ,that will and would ,be presented in the rest of the community.

    "who hasn't seen one of their friends, guildies or familiar faces in a channel see disappear. "

    They should bot less then ,and play the game.Being BiS while you dont play the game or you dont paying real money,cannot be achieved.Yet they are droves of players of the aforementioned category.They must be really innovative minds...
    A-HA!!! They must have "playing the AH" or "run CN in mod1 where you would make milionsssss " .That are their excuses.Which ofcourse to anyone having the singlest clue about the game,is not possible.Never been.

    "we stand behind our decision but are reversing it - is hilarious."

    It is not.They just decided and weighted that,in terms of public realtions damage vs lost income from botting,is better to unban the hypocritical hamsters and give them a last chance.

    "'Dedicated players' has to be the vaguest term to come out of a marketing department yet. "

    Dedicated players ,in the theme we discuss ,are :
    Reknown forumers,guild officers/leaders in mega guilds,influential players,youtobe video posters with thousand of views.
    Some times they have 2 or more definitions from the temrs ,above.

    Quick and fast synopsis:

    90% of the bans were fair.But because the banned players are "Prominent members of the Neverwinter community" Cryptic decided that the damage in public realtions was too high and gave them a last chance.
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