@rustlord our numbers are the same, I accidentally flipped a couple of numbers when I copied them from the top part of my post to the next part. Whoops!
Lilia Drakon - PVE Executioner TR She Looked Lvl 18
micky1p00Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,594Arc User
edited December 2016
I think there are few things that need to be checked first or considered: Lostmauth: 1. If lostmauth set damage is buffed by external buffs. It gets buffed by something, not sure what. 2. Power (imo no) 3. On what it procs (for example doesn't proc on smoke, DF bleed) 4. Has ArP (offensive)
Orcus: 1. Bleed damage affected once stacked ? 2. less important but Is it linear (1 + 0.2(full_hp - current_hp)/full_hp)) or it only register changes each 'check points' or if it is even WAI (kinda important, I don't have one, never checked). 3. Has deflect iirc (defensive stat)
In theory the more smaller hits you get, the more you get out of lostmauth, so we should look into DF and BF. I get 1.7k damage from each lostmauth proc. It is ~15% of DF hit (flurry). And ~6% out of BF. This is at best for lostmauth, considering no buffs.
In practice on trash, we don't get a lot pocs, one, two hits and everything dead. And if not the TR 1-2 hits, someone from the party will take care of it.
Lets look at something big: And only DF it. Set up bled with lurkers will net 200k Bleed (more or less) Each Flurry about 12k, DF hit 20k lostmauth 1.7k The entire DF takes about 3sec, with the bleed it will be: 20k x2 + 9x12k + 3x200k = 750k Assuming lostmauth procs for each flurry hit (it's think it's not) 20k x2 + 9x12k + 3x200k + 11x1.7k = 770k
2.6% increase, and it's about what we get in practice in ACT. Orcus on the other hand should give on average 10% (more towards 9-8%), assuming it procs on stuff. If it's not working on the bleed it becomes interesting, but it is still better.
10% because averaging all the small bonuses of a linear increment (0.01 + 0.02 + .....+ 0.99 + 1)/n = 0.5 And 0.5 * 0.2 = 0.1 In practice a bit lower, because we can't get the 20% or close to it, this is when the enemy is dead, and we can't kill it more And usually TR get a lot of buffs on least hits (lower HP on enemy), so it will be a big hit on 17% bonus and dead enemy, and as such no hits at 17+% - 20%. So in practice 9-8 is what should happen. (except the bleed issue)
image.prntscr.com/image/8b23501e94374d59b9aa632529f2c95f.pngI am off-topic, sry abt that, didnt want to create new thread, but can some1 explain this? Why is Dazing and Lashing crit % at 50% and 47% when all have been used from stealth, which is autocrit, or not?
@blur#5900 I'd look at your rotation and see if you are inadvertently using them out of stealth. ITC now collapses your stealth, so you don't want to use it after you hit the stealth button. Also, I know for myself, I went a long time thinking Lurker's Assault counted as stealth as long as it was up and it doesn't.
But, I know on my ACT, I'm almost always at 100% on both of those. Since my crit sits at 90-94% once I'm potioned up, they must be critting from stealth.
Lilia Drakon - PVE Executioner TR She Looked Lvl 18
So I finally got my hands on the orcus artifact, and I'm kind of disappointed (or maybe I was expecting more). I haven't noticed that tremendous of a damage increase compare to the lostmauth set, and a lost quite a bit of dex/recovery to make up for the loss of armor pen. Anyone have any tips on maximizing dps with the set? I read to try to get my hp as low as possible when the boss is above 50%, and to keep it at 100% when below with life steal. My life steal atm is at 15%, ik optimal is 20. But keeping myself at 100 isn't my issue. Keeping my health low is. I don't see how I can do that without purposely stepping in red which generally 1 shots me anyways. Advice?
IMO, you probably expected to much out of it, it's 9% at best at bosses. But still compared to the 2% we get from lostmauth. Depends how much you lost in stats ofc. for me for example ArP is not an issue, but if you had to loose power to get back ArP, it's problematic.
I think for someone to decide what better is probably to look at boss fight ACTs, take the 8% or so, and see by how much (if) it's more than lostmauth damage. And if the stat loss covers it.
Let's look at this logically all mathy like, shall we? Let's say we have a mob of 5 enemies, and each monster has 100,000 hp. For simplicity, let's say our weapon damage does 1000 and our smoke bomb tics for 20,000 per hit.
Lostmauth damage is very easy to figure at 5 tics to kill per monster, so 1000*5*5= 25,000.
Orcus is more complicated.
First tick would be no extra damage so the monsters are now down 20% at 80,000 hp.
.2*.2*20,000 = 800 extra damage for the second tic. So each monster takes 20,800. That means that for the third tic each monster is down 40,800 or 40.8%
.408 * .2 * 20,000 = 1632 extra damage for the third tick. So each monster takes 21,632 damage, so 40,800 + 21,632 = 62,432 damage taken after the third tick or 62.4% down.
.2 * .624 * 20,000 = 2496 extra damage for the 4th tick. So each monster takes 22,496 damage, so 62,432 + 22,496 = 84,928 or down 84.9%
.849 * .2 * 20,000 = 3,396 extra damage for tic 5 So each monster takes 23,396 damage killing it. (3396 * 5) + (2496 * 5) + (1632 * 5) + (800 * 5) = 16,980 + 12,480 + 8160 + 4,000= 41,620
Orcus damage is 41,620. Lostmauth damage is 25,000.
Even if you don't count the last killing hit, Orcus still does 24,640 to Lostmauth's 20,000.
That may be an oversimplification, and please correct me if my math is just incorrect, or if I am figuring the Orcus bonus incorrectly, but I can't see how Lostmauth out performs Orcus in almost any situation.
And, granted the stats are better for Lostmauth. But, still.
The only thing I'd probably change is the damage dealt by Lostmauth is higher than the sample.
[Combat (Self)] Critical Hit! Your Bloodbath deals 10351 (9858) Physical Damage to Cutter. [Combat (Self)] Your Lostmauth's Vengeance deals 1830 (1743) Physical Damage to Cutter. [Combat (Self)] Your Rousing Warmth deals 3000 Fire Damage to Cutter. [Combat (Self)] Critical Hit! Your Bloodbath deals 10209 (9723) Physical Damage to Sentry. [Combat (Self)] Your Lostmauth's Vengeance deals 1830 (1743) Physical Damage to Sentry. [Combat (Self)] Your Aspect of Flames deals 630 (600) Fire Damage to Sentry.
Therefore the comparison might be 1830*5*5 = 45,750
But! Just to point out something totally HAMSTER, Smoke Bomb ticks do not proc Lostmauth... making the whole point of this comparison NULL. x(
@blur#5900 I'd look at your rotation and see if you are inadvertently using them out of stealth. ITC now collapses your stealth, so you don't want to use it after you hit the stealth button. Also, I know for myself, I went a long time thinking Lurker's Assault counted as stealth as long as it was up and it doesn't.
But, I know on my ACT, I'm almost always at 100% on both of those. Since my crit sits at 90-94% once I'm potioned up, they must be critting from stealth.
Thing is i had no rotation at all, i was just waiting for stealth to refill and use dazing or lashing, no smoke bomb, no itc, nothing except stealth and lashing/dazing. My crit is 98-103% so it should crit even without stealth, i guess problem is in my ACT, something must be messed up since crit % for lashing and Dazing cant go higher than 50%. Thanks.
Digging through old posts from when the Lostmauth set changed took place and found out that Lostmauth's Vengence only procs on the first proc in a series of DOTs. That's why it's not good for smoke bomb, anymore. I'm not sure, does it proc still on bleed ticks?
Lilia Drakon - PVE Executioner TR She Looked Lvl 18
@blur#5900 I'd look at your rotation and see if you are inadvertently using them out of stealth. ITC now collapses your stealth, so you don't want to use it after you hit the stealth button. Also, I know for myself, I went a long time thinking Lurker's Assault counted as stealth as long as it was up and it doesn't.
But, I know on my ACT, I'm almost always at 100% on both of those. Since my crit sits at 90-94% once I'm potioned up, they must be critting from stealth.
Thing is i had no rotation at all, i was just waiting for stealth to refill and use dazing or lashing, no smoke bomb, no itc, nothing except stealth and lashing/dazing. My crit is 98-103% so it should crit even without stealth, i guess problem is in my ACT, something must be messed up since crit % for lashing and Dazing cant go higher than 50%. Thanks.
Did you clear the log? What the ingame log shows? Also post one of the encounter detail, lashing or dazing (the act tab with the all hits and the graph at the bottom)
Yes i cleared the log, in game log shows all dazing/lashing hits as crits and 50% crit rate in act is actually a 100% but something is triggered and its a non crit while its registered as dazing/lashing. Here, the 56 dmg thing. http://image.prntscr.com/image/c79287ff200d44ba8c806b01efc92db5.png
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micky1p00Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,594Arc User
Yes i cleared the log, in game log shows all dazing/lashing hits as crits and 50% crit rate in act is actually a 100% but something is triggered and its a non crit while its registered as dazing/lashing. Here, the 56 dmg thing. http://image.prntscr.com/image/c79287ff200d44ba8c806b01efc92db5.png
You are seeing the AP gain parts.
You are on the wrong tab, don't use (ref) use the non (ref), for example there are 2 outgoing damage: The "Outgoing damage" -> all. And there is "All outgoing damage (ref)". The ref doesn't filter the AP gain, because the log writes it as a type of damage (power).
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lordseth1985Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 319Arc User
edited April 2017
I have one question, and it "may" be tricky... does Orcus set affects combat advantage damage?
Avestruz.Q.T.Seduz - Rogue, natural born assassin.
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micky1p00Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,594Arc User
This is different from stuff that procs hits, for example lostmauth, the seperate hit could have been affected by CA or not. Usually most separated procs do not (like insignia, boons, etc..)
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lordseth1985Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 319Arc User
Hmm I see. I was wondering if the set bonus would/could work with CA, Opressive darkness and other feats.
Avestruz.Q.T.Seduz - Rogue, natural born assassin.
I am currently in transition from Lostmauth set to Orcus set. Every High DPS TR i have played with uses this set. There is far more damage potential with Orcus set, whereas Lostmauth set is fix and minimal. You guys might want to take a look at some guides. Especially the one from my fellow guildie GalacticUnderwear. Really nice build, power focused with balanced crit etc.. Too much to get into but it is a End Game guild and quite nice. Below is the link for his youtube channel and he has some great content. Give him a sub while you are there.
Galactic underwear here, i will refrain from taking part in the number side of things ( i usually let my dear friend sirjimbofrancis take care of that ) , lostmauth set underperforms compared to orcus set period, end of story... personaly even if lostmauth is better on mobs, mobs die so fast that it is hardly worth it.. orcus set is by far the better choice. since most of our damage is single target and the orcus set thrives on boss fights. so it is very simple, you want to do more dmg? use orcus. even if you have the best rotations using the lostmauth set, vs a orcus set player that knows what he is doing, you will be outdamaged no questions asked.
So I finally got my hands on the orcus artifact, and I'm kind of disappointed (or maybe I was expecting more). I haven't noticed that tremendous of a damage increase compare to the lostmauth set, and a lost quite a bit of dex/recovery to make up for the loss of armor pen. Anyone have any tips on maximizing dps with the set? I read to try to get my hp as low as possible when the boss is above 50%, and to keep it at 100% when below with life steal. My life steal atm is at 15%, ik optimal is 20. But keeping myself at 100 isn't my issue. Keeping my health low is. I don't see how I can do that without purposely stepping in red which generally 1 shots me anyways. Advice?
IMO, you probably expected to much out of it, it's 9% at best at bosses. But still compared to the 2% we get from lostmauth. Depends how much you lost in stats ofc. for me for example ArP is not an issue, but if you had to loose power to get back ArP, it's problematic.
I think for someone to decide what better is probably to look at boss fight ACTs, take the 8% or so, and see by how much (if) it's more than lostmauth damage. And if the stat loss covers it.
exactly this. As far as bonus goes, orcus destroys lost.. lostmauth is a joke really. BUT lostmauths set pieces stats are better. You loose 2 dexterity and and a lot of armp. this could hurt more than the set gain. Personally, Im doing great with strength belt (+4) and a dragon neck that replaces armp with recovery. Ditched that lostmauth artifact.. I havent used orcus yet, but the mixed matched, no bonus, gear increased my damage over lostmauth.. no doubt..
I finally had an X2 RP (and time to get back to this post) and took the plunge on the Orcus set. When I did that I also had to change out some artifacts and enchants to get things back in balance. I still need a few more tweaks but the damage is noticeably better especially on bosses.
Comments
She Looked Lvl 18
Here is my Blog
Lostmauth:
1. If lostmauth set damage is buffed by external buffs. It gets buffed by something, not sure what.
2. Power (imo no)
3. On what it procs (for example doesn't proc on smoke, DF bleed)
4. Has ArP (offensive)
Orcus:
1. Bleed damage affected once stacked ?
2. less important but Is it linear (1 + 0.2(full_hp - current_hp)/full_hp)) or it only register changes each 'check points' or if it is even WAI (kinda important, I don't have one, never checked).
3. Has deflect iirc (defensive stat)
In theory the more smaller hits you get, the more you get out of lostmauth, so we should look into DF and BF.
I get 1.7k damage from each lostmauth proc. It is ~15% of DF hit (flurry).
And ~6% out of BF.
This is at best for lostmauth, considering no buffs.
In practice on trash, we don't get a lot pocs, one, two hits and everything dead. And if not the TR 1-2 hits, someone from the party will take care of it.
Lets look at something big:
And only DF it.
Set up bled with lurkers will net 200k Bleed (more or less)
Each Flurry about 12k, DF hit 20k lostmauth 1.7k
The entire DF takes about 3sec, with the bleed it will be:
20k x2 + 9x12k + 3x200k = 750k
Assuming lostmauth procs for each flurry hit (it's think it's not)
20k x2 + 9x12k + 3x200k + 11x1.7k = 770k
2.6% increase, and it's about what we get in practice in ACT.
Orcus on the other hand should give on average 10% (more towards 9-8%), assuming it procs on stuff.
If it's not working on the bleed it becomes interesting, but it is still better.
10% because averaging all the small bonuses of a linear increment (0.01 + 0.02 + .....+ 0.99 + 1)/n = 0.5
And 0.5 * 0.2 = 0.1
In practice a bit lower, because we can't get the 20% or close to it, this is when the enemy is dead, and we can't kill it more
So in practice 9-8 is what should happen. (except the bleed issue)
But, I know on my ACT, I'm almost always at 100% on both of those. Since my crit sits at 90-94% once I'm potioned up, they must be critting from stealth.
She Looked Lvl 18
Here is my Blog
She Looked Lvl 18
Here is my Blog
Depends how much you lost in stats ofc. for me for example ArP is not an issue, but if you had to loose power to get back ArP, it's problematic.
I think for someone to decide what better is probably to look at boss fight ACTs, take the 8% or so, and see by how much (if) it's more than lostmauth damage. And if the stat loss covers it.
She Looked Lvl 18
Here is my Blog
Also post one of the encounter detail, lashing or dazing (the act tab with the all hits and the graph at the bottom)
http://image.prntscr.com/image/c79287ff200d44ba8c806b01efc92db5.png
You are on the wrong tab, don't use (ref) use the non (ref), for example there are 2 outgoing damage:
The "Outgoing damage" -> all.
And there is "All outgoing damage (ref)".
The ref doesn't filter the AP gain, because the log writes it as a type of damage (power).
For example, for 10% orcus, 30% CA (no crit):
Neither: otherdamagestuff
Both: otherdamagestuff * 1.1 * 1.3
Either: otherdamagestuff * 1.1, otherdamagestuff * 1.3
This is different from stuff that procs hits, for example lostmauth, the seperate hit could have been affected by CA or not. Usually most separated procs do not (like insignia, boons, etc..)
OP - Sunshine: 16000 IL
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