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GF experts I need your help

oicidrazoicidraz Member Posts: 627 Arc User
Ok, I'm full Tank GF and I wanted to know how should I distribute my attacking stats (Power, Cristical Strike and Armor Penetration)

Now I have:

Power: 8K
Critical and ARP: 1k
Recovery: 2K

This is with Black Ice enchantment in all the offense slots that I have, but I was thinking about changing to Draconic enchantments, since Armor Penetration seems a lot better that Critical strike now, what do you think?

Comments

  • rjc9000rjc9000 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 2,350 Arc User

    I would reccomend getting your Resistance Ignored (sum of your Armor Pen % + [Dex -10] up to 60% as fast as possible. It helps both your soloing times and aggro generation immensely. This is pretty much your top priority, even over getting Recovery, as a tank who can't aggro is a poor choice of tank.

    After you get your Resistance Ignored up to 60% (or as close as you can, something like 58% is good enough), you should focus your efforts into Recovery. Try and aim for at least 8,000-12,000 Recovery as a baseline, so you have decent uptime on your attacks. Get a feel for your style, check if you prefer to have blazing fast cooldowns (stack more recovery) or if you have enough for the time being (stack extra defensive stats).

    I would ignore Power and Crit. While both are tangently related to aggro, you need large amounts of both to make a huge difference in your aggro. But if you can field large amounts of Power/Crit (say, around ~40,000ish Power and ~65% Crit chance) on your GF, you might as well give a Conqueror chip damage build a shot.

    I would personally run a mix of darks and silveries in your offense slots, or, if you're in a guild with some decently ranked boons, run the ArmorPen boon with Silveries in your offense slot.

    If you somehow have a large stock of decently ranked Black Ice enchantments (R7-R12s), stick them in your character's defensive slots, they'll add a bit of survivability to your GF.

  • oicidrazoicidraz Member Posts: 627 Arc User
    Thanks!

    I will try to get to those numbers but I think it will be pretty hard since my main target is being Tanky, I will see what I can do.
  • wizardlvl80#5963 wizardlvl80 Member Posts: 519 Arc User
    @rjc9000

    Where should GF stack arpen? In enchantments? Insignias? Boons? I don't see a place for it.
  • rjc9000rjc9000 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 2,350 Arc User
    I'm not sure how I'd articulate this... I have a feeling this is going to be awfully worded, so bear with me.

    For a tank build, I would reccomend a Guild ArmorPen boon so you can focus your stats elsewhere. But, if you don't have it, here's a few suggestions:

    -Boons (free Resistance Ignored)
    -Artifacts
    -Enchantments
    -Mount Bonus (if you have one)
    -Insignias

    You also get ArmorPen from DEX, but that can vary wildly depending on your DEX score.

    I would personally focus all your ArmorPen focuses on your character rather than Bondings, as you don't need to have insane amounts of ArmorPen.

    For a DPS build, my reccomendations would be a bit different...

    -DEX Score (CHA is all the rage for DPS builds, but I'd rather pick DEX, since CHA doesn't benefit the GF "that" much, and DEX allows for me to slot less ArmorPen stuff)
    -Artifacts (Lantern, Thayan Book, Fragmented Key are all examples of good artifacts with ArmorPen)
    -Mount Bonus (if you have one
    -Bonding Comp Gear (something like a Savage 12 with a Rosegold Assault Ring, combined with all those other sources, should get you at your ArmorPen needed).
    -Insignias



  • dread4moordread4moor Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,145 Arc User
    @wizardlvl80#5963
    I fill Dark enchants in offensive slots on toon and on summoned pet offensive slots until >~55%. Easy.
    The rest of my ArPen coincidental. Coming from random equipment contributions to ~59%.

    You could also use ArmPen glyphs in overloads, artifacts and boons but most of those with ArPen don't match tank builds well.
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    "Full plate and packing steel" in NW since 2013.
  • boromir#3940 boromir Member Posts: 107 Arc User
    Armor pen: Random armor, artifacts 'at least one, but 2 is better,' and then enchants on self and companion. High DEX should be automatic with a buff tank build.

    Power>recovery>crit!!!! This the answer except for dps/dps hybrids. Now, the question this begs. But what if I want to keep ITF up 100% of the time? Silly, just plain silly. As a tank your number one job is not 'fray up time.' Your job is controlling the fight thru aggro generation. You move the pieces on the chess board around while simultaneously keeping yourself in the best possible position.

    Why power over recovery? Threat. Threat is generated thru damage and heals. We don't heal our team, so it's damage alone. We have threat buffers like ET/mark. And you can pick up a companion, heroic feat and class feature enhanced mark. But don't do that. Let me repeat, don't do that. It's a waste of a better active companion, a better class feature and a better choice in heroic feats. Hard mark, ET, stab and every other damage producing at-will/encounter/daily you have at your disposal. Stay busy.

    So how much recovery? 6-8k. 12k is where you start to see diminishing returns. But it's not necessary to go that far with this stat. Why? 3 reasons:
    1. Heroic feat 'action surge' and tactician feat 'fight on.' Fight on is self explanatory. Action surge is sometimes overlooked, but very useful. Ex. With shield up against Orcus, I'm stabbing and fray is up obviously....one hit from him and I have a daily. Maybe 2 hits, but usually just one. I have 3 points in this feat. More is unnecessary. So shield up=dailies for days.
    2. DC's and healadins both have powers that boost recharge speeds for teammates. That Pally's is a flat 10% called aura of wisdom. It's pretty standard, regardless of their build. It's basically a second 'fight on.' DC's buff you faster, but it's a tic. Still amazing help, and you'll always have one even if you pug a dungeon. The game generates groups in this fashion when you pug dungeons.
    3. This is the most important reason to not go crazy on recovery. There is always something else to do. I can't count how many times I would have a fray ready, but had to wait because I needed my shield up. Or the mob in front of me only needs 2 more WMS until they are dead. Why waste a fray in that moment? The animation time is about as long as those 2 WMS, or a 3 swing rotation of crushing surge. Or I have a commander's strike ready and that last enemy is about to go down.....regardless of fray. Or I have a daily ready. 1-1.5 seconds is not an eternity when you have other things to do. And with the aforementioned pally/DC buffs, you probably won't see a point where 100% fray uptime isn't possible. I can't count the number of times, once again, when fray is ready to pop......but I know I still have 2 seconds or more left on the current one.

    Crit. Don't look for it above other stats. If you happen upon some thru armor choices or maybe one of your artifacts....cool. It helps your threat generation. Don't put azures in offensive slots though. Whatever you have is good enough, as a tactician/buff tank.

    And for the love of all that is good and holy....do not put extra points into INT for the sake of recharge speed. I do the STR/CHA thing because conqueror build and legendary companion. But if I went back to tactician, it's CON/DEX all the way.
  • jaime4312#3760 jaime4312 Member Posts: 844 Arc User
    edited April 2017
    @boromir#3940

    Some things I disagree with regarding your post:

    Action surge: I'm sorry but I see no point taking that feat if you are tactician, regardless of your il and stats. Both as low level (when I was in the 2k's, like 120k hp and well below DR cap) and my current one (now over 100k more hp than when low level and better DR), 1 min 2 max hits from Orcus and my daily is full. Guess how many points I have in that feat... yes, zero.

    CON/DEX: It may be preference, but I believe CON/STR is much better for a tac gf, arp is way too easy to make up for so the extra stamina (aka guard for us GF's) regen and damage from that stat help for both, aggro and survability. The longer your you can keep your shield up and the less you have to wait for your guard to restore, the better your survability. Shield up all/most the time thanks to (partially) STR > DEX (chance to deflect and bit of resistance ignored easily made up for).
    Better shield uptime > deflect chance.


    My opinion on recovery is somewhere between rjc's and yours: Yes, DC and OP help with cooldown reduction but no, it is not good to depend on other classes to make your toon be able to do its buffing role to its fullest, permafray is a personal choice but if you want it you may as well build to be able to pull it off without depending on anyone to help with the uptime of that skill.
  • rjc9000rjc9000 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 2,350 Arc User

    As a tank your number one job is not 'fray up time.' Your job is controlling the fight thru aggro generation. You move the pieces on the chess board around while simultaneously keeping yourself in the best possible position.

    Mm... I really like the way you worded this.

    Mind if I borrow it?

  • boromir#3940 boromir Member Posts: 107 Arc User
    @jaime4312#3760 The point to the action surge suggestion was to provide an alternative to potent challenge. I can't stand the feat potent challenge, the class feature enhanced mark or the dread warrior. We have several means by which to garner and keep threat without the above mentioned. But yeah, martial mastery takes care of dailies in an Orcus fight.

    As for the STR/DEX vs STR/CON. I also agree with you on this point. I'm trying to tailor my suggestions to the original poster who is kinda geared low. By that I mean he needs all the RI he can get for the time being. I've been swinging back and forth between helping the new guys, and stating personal preferences that would not be inline with other 'end game geared' folks. For this I'm sorry about any confusion. STR/CHA trumps all!!! See? There I go again lol.

    I'm like you by being in between myself and rjc's take on recovery. I may have gone a bit too far with it, but permafray is a pet peeve of mine. What it requires vs what you are missing out on is not a good ratio.

    The idea of recovery over power just hurts my brain. I honestly think that the mod 8 tactician train of thought is lingering in the minds of some. No longer are the days of super fray in existence. No longer is the right answer max out recovery and defense, but let everything else fall by the waste side.....and you'll be a beast.

    Mostly, I wanted to show how power is not something to overlook compared to the other offensive stats. There are only 2 stats in the entire game that don't have diminishing returns.....power and HP.
  • rjc9000rjc9000 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 2,350 Arc User

    @jaime4312#3760 The point to the action surge suggestion was to provide an alternative to potent challenge. I can't stand the feat potent challenge, the class feature enhanced mark or the dread warrior. We have several means by which to garner and keep threat without the above mentioned. But yeah, martial mastery takes care of dailies in an Orcus fight.



    As for the STR/DEX vs STR/CON. I also agree with you on this point. I'm trying to tailor my suggestions to the original poster who is kinda geared low. By that I mean he needs all the RI he can get for the time being. I've been swinging back and forth between helping the new guys, and stating personal preferences that would not be inline with other 'end game geared' folks. For this I'm sorry about any confusion. STR/CHA trumps all!!! See? There I go again lol.



    I'm like you by being in between myself and rjc's take on recovery. I may have gone a bit too far with it, but permafray is a pet peeve of mine. What it requires vs what you are missing out on is not a good ratio.



    The idea of recovery over power just hurts my brain. I honestly think that the mod 8 tactician train of thought is lingering in the minds of some. No longer are the days of super fray in existence. No longer is the right answer max out recovery and defense, but let everything else fall by the waste side.....and you'll be a beast.



    Aye, a lot of reason why my build has loads of Recovery is because it essentially was a hold-over from Fatshroom's Mod 6-8 build, which suggested Recovery everywhere (remember, this is before the Bonding path became popular, so you really did have to stack loads of Recovery in your character + augment to get a decent cooldown).

    I believe ITF has a duration of give or take 8 seconds and has a base cooldown of give or take 15 seconds (still testing this). Even if we're generous with the casting time (~1 second), this means that to "effectively" have ITF up almost all the time, you need to have ITF's cooldown be ~9 seconds, which isn't too hard to achieve (I can get ~10 with only 4000 Recovery + Fight On + 15 INT, so, not too hard to reduce your cooldowns).

    The only other reason to stack loads of Recovery is to be spamming CS as fast as you can, but this is somewhat of a moot point given how most classes won't make use of CS every 5 seconds (GWF IBS, SW Killing Flames, DPS GF Anvil or Knee Breaker, arguably TR Lashing Blade) or just won't make use of Commander's Strike as well as others (good luck getting a Trapper HR or Thaum CW to time their best encounters with your CS).

    Tbh, I am thinking about dropping some Recovery, but I'm lazy and don't feel like changing my build which is meant for me to autopilot tanking things. The day that we get Recovery/Crit enchants ala Brutal's Power/Crit is the day I'll probably pick drop some Recovery and pick up Jagged Blades on my Tactician.

  • boromir#3940 boromir Member Posts: 107 Arc User
    @rjc9000 agreed. CS is iffy at best. Synergizing with a strong IBS is love, but it doesn't happen often enough for me to justify it outside of boss fights. I don't like rolling the dice when anvil hits hard and crushing pin from knee breaker is sweet in its own rite. I've got 6.5k recovery 14INT and my goal is 8k. That feels like the sweet spot. But I run a conqueror/SM and sit on 10k crit with 29k power. Feytouched not Vorpal. But once again my build is a jack of all trades.....so compromises.

    Jack of all trades has always felt the safest route to me. From mod to mod, I'm never left out to dry. I was only forced into one respec because of a legendary companion. That screams put points into CHA, so I did.
  • rjc9000rjc9000 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 2,350 Arc User

    @rjc9000 agreed. CS is iffy at best. Synergizing with a strong IBS is love, but it doesn't happen often enough for me to justify it outside of boss fights. I don't like rolling the dice when anvil hits hard and crushing pin from knee breaker is sweet in its own rite. I've got 6.5k recovery 14INT and my goal is 8k. That feels like the sweet spot. But I run a conqueror/SM and sit on 10k crit with 29k power. Feytouched not Vorpal. But once again my build is a jack of all trades.....so compromises.



    Jack of all trades has always felt the safest route to me. From mod to mod, I'm never left out to dry. I was only forced into one respec because of a legendary companion. That screams put points into CHA, so I did.

    Part of me is retroactively kicking myself for binding my Tenser's Disk to my GWF. The extra 4000 Recovery off the mount would do wonders for making my life a little bit easier on my GF (after playing a Tactician with a 7.5 second ITF for 1.5 years, playing a Conqueror with a 10-11 second cooldown ITF feels awful).

    The Fey thing isn't actually a half bad idea. I actually finished up tests on DPS GF weapon enchantment data on single target fights (because that's where your DPS shines/matters the most), and Fey was actually the second best overall option after Vorpal.

    Of course, depending on your Critical Severity and current overarching Combat Advantage bonus, Fey can sometimes end up being better than Vorpal (assuming you don't have a teammate stealing your Feytouched damage buff), but your milage may vary.

    I subscribe to a similar jack of all stats type theory, except I put some more focus on speed and precision rather than raw DPS or survivability. know Sharpedge is trying to convince me to play a full DPS GF, but my beef with him is that I, unlike Snoo, don't have the benefit of having top-tier DCs watching my back 24/7.

  • boromir#3940 boromir Member Posts: 107 Arc User
    Unless I get a cambion magus randomly in a dungeon I'm keeping the feytouched. Speed? Oh yeah!!! I never replace gladiators guile and steel grace is amazing. I like to stay in front of my team, for obvious reasons. When speed running an etos or something I find GWF's and SW's racing me to the next mob. They think I'm trying to get high on the pain giver chart or something, which is comical because I'm not.

    Dude I feel for ya on the disk. That tensors equals freedom, like you say. My first epic mount of choice was the leopard of chult, 2k recovery. Best purchase I've made, and that was 2 Black Fridays ago.

    I don't like full dps. The average full dps I see is running 1k recovery and no fight on. You gotta get that staying power from protector tree. Other things irritate me too, but that's my biggest gripe. Well that and dumping my mount insignia based heals like champions return for double stacking commraderie. Things like this are necessary in order to be effective, but I'm not down.
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