@stathisjoestar You cant re-stealth with One with the Shadows and have a bonus from Shadowborn, two top tier feats from 2 different trees are impossible to have. Everything you said is simply wrong. I dont know what fairy tale you are reading but hold it for a second and gives us the answers we asked you twice already so we can finally understand on what is based all this you speak about. Read our suggestions carefully, again and again, you might see that we gave ITC version to WK.
Yes I realised that a while ago after I wrote my post and came back to correct this, my thoughts derailed because I wanted to include all my opinions and wanted to point out that there are so many ways to re-stealth, that you conveniently didn't mention when you said the double power buff is out of stealth only. I'll correct my mistake, and ponder on the thread's suggestions. *goes in stealth*
You may win a thousand fights, but you can only lose one.
Hi my TR Max from ps4 playing tr since neverwinter hit ps4 main character love the trickster rogue and i try really hard to be better everyday also BIS literally their no more things i can put in my tr available on ps4 playing rogue is hard we need to be close to target and any hit we get can be deadly and maybe resulting in not been on paingiver score lool thanks to df inmune animation that if im not wrong is just like 1 second and smoke bomb and fast respond and been able to dodge we can survive put in away stat like lifesteal and deflect so does TR need some rework in stealth like fellows TR suggest the anwers is 100% yes we do! So the TR need some buff yes we do sometimes have a hard time to keep up with lower gear stat etc. literally all classes if in the hand of a good player or pro easy can outdps me with a 3.8k il and i am 4.350k it level TR with 8k boon from Guild plus leg mount and all the stuff what i will like to have on my TR beside more damage is some team support idn maybe allies do % more damage to anemies affected by smoke bomb or beside smoke bomd beside daze target also do % less damage or something like that lol or enemies that are damage by a rogue wicked target power by % you know things like that thanks for everyone effort for trying to keep TRs to alive those who love playing the TR anyway i just want to say something sorry about my english idn if express myself correctly thanks
Maybe we should separate your role-playing interpretation of skills and power from actual numbers and results ?
Maybe you should put suggestions that respect the actual DnD background ? My suggestion was just a simple idea, not the whole Scoundrel rework. Scoundrel tree relies on survivability via deflection/life steal/back alley insight and fighting an enemy via dazing him/gaining advantage over him. What you turn the Scoundrel path to is.. the path that does 30% damage (so that he can catch up to the fresh buffs put on Executioner). You can still make Scoundrel strong by respecting his role maybe, that's my actual suggestion when I referred to Skullcracker. Examples is having him deal extra damage on controlled enemies, having him do piercing damage on immune targets, or gain combat advantage over immune targets etc. These are mere ideas I personally had, that potentially could fit on Scoundrel, the damage of course would be adjusted. Ignoring a whole class tree though and replacing it with "Scoundrel is the path that.. em does 30% damage lol" is forced buffing and lack of imagination.
It seems, as I've said before that you only read the tooltips and do not actually play TR. Unfortunatly those suggestions are irrelevant to the issue. There is no piercing damage in PvE, everyone above the DR cap. Adding 50% piercing damage to next encounter is negligible for a capstone. And probably will have more than needed issues for PvP.
In PvE you have ~100% CA uptime. So you suggest to make a capstone that gives CA ? More so, large portion of players use skilfful infiltrator that gives 20sec of assured CA and that is over the daze and stealth that grant CA... And to add insult, to well insult, CA damage bonus is added to Severity, meaning it's about 10% damage bonus.
Lack of imagination, ok no problem, imagine suggestions that will actually do something. When have you actually played scoundrel ? Or saw one in PvE ?
You want to make it strong and respect it's role. Sure, so what it brings to the table ? Why should I respec to scoundrel ? How I can be more helpful to a party being one ? Control is irrelevant. There are no significant party buffs or enemy debuff. There is no damage. Can't actually tank anything. So ok, I fully agree that each path should have different play style, cons, and pros, and while sabo has an encounter heavy stealth based mechanics, and exe is straight glass cannon, what scoundrel is ? The party cheerleader ?
There are two options, either straight buff it a bit (yes 30% in this case is a bit) and let the more deflect, daze play style to be somewhat viable. As in do at least half the damage everyone else does. Or rework the whole thing with some vision and synergy. You refuse the first, and do not provide the second. And hence we are stuck with a dead path.
"Executioner: Uses stealth to try and deal as much damage as possible in a single strike. " "Scoundrel: A brawler who debuffs foes and can take a lot of damage. "
Glad you quoted this. Scoundrel could be more debuff and control oriented with more survivability and bonus damage on dazed targets. Maybe after a rebalance, Scoundrel's damage should be a little less than an Executioner's when comparing raw damage, as Scoundrel will have some tactic assets. As for Executioner, my thesis remains. He should do great damage on a single hit, or when finishing off an enemy. Having him deal 10% damage [that will have reached 50% already when enemy gets on half health] from the start-up and on every single hit when enemy is 100% HP is absurb, or having him deal the Shadow of Demise in smaller hits, is what I'm saying. "Deal as much damage as possible in a single strike", remember ? You slip out of stealth to strike your enemy down with one silent hit, and him surviving only gives him time till he suddenly feels the killing pain from the shadow of death over him. A sudden single.. executioning hit. Not another constant buff or DoT damage.
What absurd is, that we don't get to finish of enemies ! And if you played TR you would have noticed that little tiny issue. One Ice knife and no boss.... Your 30% feat never saw the day of light...
What slip out of stealth? what silent strike ? I'm trying to kill Drufi or being useful in MSVA, not hunting patrons at the moonstone mask. I'm glad you have imagination, and sure, I don't think anyone object to immersive game or *more* immersive. But make the numbers fit. You can't balance with 'deal single strike' that what was at the beginning and got nerfed repeatedly until nothing remained due to PvP. Now we have what we have, and: 1. It's not enough. 2. It's cumbersome to utilize - non linear skill gap.
Shocking Execution is absolutely necessary in PVP for TRs to stay competitive, so removing it isn't an option.
Indeed that was the case always, and when we say "TR" now we basically talk about an MI Executioner, and that should change. You focus on keeping MI as he is (which is the only option, and that because of the Infiltrator features and since you wouldn't touch precious SE and ItC) and over-buffing Executioner (who is again the only option, and actually very competitive). Whisperknife should be on par with Master Infiltrator, an alternative build with pros and cons. Scoundrel should have some nice changes (maybe include something for Immune targets?) in order to be a unique, strong path for TRs. My opinion is that Shocking Execution (and Courage Breaker) are the things that should be toned down. Executioner should remain as he is (he is trully competitive both PvP.. and PvE!), no need to put more and more buffs on him. With your suggestions Whisperknife and Scoundrel are still lackluster... what if you put some (not-well-thought) buffs on Scoundrel, when you put over-buffs at the already successful Executioner. And you didn't suggest much on TR Powers, besides buffing greatly his strongest, again, asset - Duelist's Flurry.
Very competitive? Please answer my original questions. I think you got your impressions out of some random pug runs. The effect that even mediocre TR like me, can outdps the second next about 10 times in a random pug doesn't mean it's "very competitive" it only speaks about the reference. The average TR, especially at BiS, is not competitive to average other classes. Competitive is +-10%, hell, +-20%. This is not reality right now. And neither the effort and 'luck' it takes to get to the top of the scale. There is a limit to how much a rotation and or mechanics can be prone to mistiming, or to have the class mechanics nullify 25k-28k stats.
"not-well-thought" sure, but I still didn't see anything well thought from you either.
"already successful Executioner" - Maybe you know something I do not, I'm willing to learn, won't be the first time nor the last that I don't know things. So as I've clearly asked you before, what are your rotations in said content, and how you are doing comparative ? If there is a way I can be successful at the same ease as other classes, just show me how.... Because for now, even if an average BiS TR can outdps in orders of magnitude random pugs, in normal groups, in end game content, we bring our charming personality and great effort, but that still leaves us somewhat behind.
It doesn't work on stealth, and for limited time [...]
About Shadowborn, you're implying that a TR can't re-enter Stealth with Shadow Strike or Invisible Infiltrator and have double Power for 5 seconds on top of the stealth bonuses and feat/feature buffs.
But don't say poorly thought over buffs when your main suggestion leaves a dead path dead for the sake of "suffering from the direct hits to their skull"
hey, at least I'm not the one that suggested giving a 5 second buff of DOUBLE Power every 6 seconds.
1. I've clearly said the 5 second are example. And it can be clearly balanced by the time length. Want it 2 seconds.. Have it 2 seconds. The mechanics is the point. 2. I've clearly wrote that 'until stealth' to prevent double dipping into shadowborn and stealth. 3. Executioner can't refill stealth every 6 seconds for a length of time. It's 10 seconds base, 9 with capstone, 8+ with TC4.
But the worst is that you cling to it without understanding the numbers. 200k power is normal buffed, 30k as doubled base is 12% dps And with less than 100% uptime... So we get ~8%
That's pretty much all the points I wanted to make. As the players expect developers to make the most of their feedback when going through a class balance, I hope your team as well will take any positive or negative, constructive or non-constructive feedback and make your suggestions more fitting.
Edit: corrected my mistake on Shadowborn and re-stealth
As may it not seems so but I don't have any issue with negative feedback. Pointting out mistakes is one thing, and i'm sure there are plenty, but I do I do have issue with empty adjectives "not-well-thought" And people who 'elegantly' avoid simple questions asked from them. Worse, a class can't be balanced by a tooltip read, or imagining how a class behaves without experience or the population numbers. We try to use the first, hopefully devs have the second.
Lol ^^^^ I also had to laugh when he said TR is competitive and fine as is!! Competitive against random pugs? We are about as competitive as a one legged man in a butt kicking contest. A great TR can still top the chart vs averAge players ..yes but not against equally geared and skilled players. The other thing said was tone down shocking execution and courage breaker!?! Tone them down ?for what? For the sake of pvp? It's already useless in pve and toning them down would make them even more useless. Who uses shocking execution in pve? Noone Why? Because you would be sacrificing mega dps for the sake of one big hit. Another thing people fail to realize is pvp is not made for 1v1 A rogue can put up a big number Clicking ITC ,lurkers,gleaming,roll boost,artifact,stealth and bang!! Big number! But now what? They aren't realizing how long it will take to get all those back up again . So yes we can shine once every minute or so against 1enemy but after you one shot that cw ,a gwf jumps on you and curb stomps you .but but you had a big hit! Pvp is a group effort .
First Strike: Remove the power. It's stupid and only used to enhance an already problematic power, SE.
As i recall. before m6 it was commonly used with LB, then after buff to current state - with SE. Seems to me the only use for FS was pvp and 'cookie-cutter' playstyle. Maybe it's time to rework that one for something like laughing skull active bonus - after entering combat/first strike in combat you gain 5/10/15% damage bonus for 6/8 (rank 4) sec instead?
DhS - yes, "less damage to allies" should be available at 1 rank already. Something like 5% reduction + another 5% from feat - would be better. Still, at current state, imo, same flaw as SoD - it takes too much time to hit it's full damage. Boss fights - yes, but an at-will only used for bosses is... Correct me if i'm wrong, DhS now hit every 1.5 sec - maybe 0.8-1 sec would be better way?
VP - yes again, though 2 ways to prone something both only for WK seems a bit unfair. Also - not that long ago, 1st dagger marked invisible targets - and that's what i'd like to see back.
2 cents on Scoundrel, pve. (wk). As someone mentioned once - Skullcracker's speed bonus should be permanent, speed is never enough for me and lose 15% just because of attacking someone is lame. Picking scoundrel i've realised perfectly that i'm not gonna be best DPSer, yes, i was quite happy with cc-support role. Until i run another PoM - 7-8 mobs on me, stealth-SB - DF (OD, off-handed) - skullcracker+concussive strikes+SB+slow from SB+Slow from OD. Then SW fired dreadtheft and all that bunch run to him like some HAMSTER freight train. I can't agro mobs enough and can't hold them there they are. So, i'd like to see stun for concussive strikes instead of daze at least for pve. O'course extra damage for cc-immune targets welcome as well. IMO, scoundrel was a way to give a second breath for powers that are commonly left behind - because of poor damage/cc-lack or something else. Unfortunately, our 0 aggro generation and *daze* (target still moves at full speed) still made no use for cc-role.
2
lordseth1985Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 319Arc User
Scoundrel should revert back to Mod 5 performance.
The nerfing that occurred was the result of whining players that didn't learn how to counter Scoundrel builds. A lot of self-described "pros" were getting owned until they figured it out.
The build I used was a WK Scoundrel brand and it was the ultimate bum-slayer. I could go into a match and go 30-0 against lesser geared players. That's simply because control was involved. Against good players that figured it out, it was always a good fight.
Once TRs started laying Smoke down at increasing rates and CWs figured out Repel (took them long enough) Scoundrels balanced out.
The Devs really caved on Scoundrels and out of it you were left with Sabs still stunning the hell out of people, raking with piercing damage and Execs double proccing SoD for quite awhile. The people playing Sabs, were dead silent about their own issues leaving a handful of people trying to plead with Devs to take a closer look. The Scoundrel tree got screwed.
I remember that time... I played pvp a lot as Scoundrel, and many ppl called me "cheater" or thing even worse. But against ppl that really kew how to counter me, it was fun and a hell of a fight, it was fun to try and hold nodes.
Avestruz.Q.T.Seduz - Rogue, natural born assassin.
I've played as a TR for almost a year. My build is MI Executioner, like the majority. I'm only at 2.8k, so nowhere near end game. I'd like to see these suggestions implemented.
"not-well-thought" sure, but I still didn't see anything well thought from you either.
Indeed, but you don't see me making a thread about class balance suggestions either. Since a group of TR-lovers made one, and since I myself didn't have any viable suggestions or was confident how the feats/powers could be tweaked to be up to the meta, I wanted to point out some basic things, plus my opinion.
1) Respect the source material. You rushed to make the TR stronger, but you ignored the playstyle of what you're changing.
"Executioner: Uses stealth to try and deal as much damage as possible in a single strike. " "Scoundrel: A brawler who debuffs foes and can take a lot of damage. "
That's what you had quoted. Yet... a) Shadow of Demise: You made it a DoT. b) Shadowborn: You made it a quite constant super-buff. c) Last Moments/Deathknell: You made it apply even at full Health and above half HP, as a constant buff. d) Dying Breath/Twisted Grin: You suggested those not having to do with an enemy's execution. The path is called Executioner, and he has a very particular set of skills... skills he has acquired over a very long adventure... skills that have to do with finishing off enemies with single strong strikes. Apparently, that's not interpreted as a DoT (?) or a buff when enemy is full HP. That's elementary.
e) Skullcracker: That's what he does. He does damage, and he knows things. Let's scrap off that thing about Scoundrel having a special role or affinity. A brawler who debuffs foes and can take a lot of damage. Scoundrel now... has a damage bonus. (Noting that the Skullcracker idea I mentioned was a mere idea, it's not Scoundrel's balance or something.)
f) Duelist's Flurry: You're not just tailing the opponent with a flurry of melee hits... being the great weapon fighter you are, every single hit is now a mighty Bleed. *now finish him off with a swipe of your axe!* Having fast sneaky strikes randomly slipping by the enemy's defence and wounding him here and there sounds like a very Rogue-ish thing anyway, scrap it off.
e) Wicked Reminder: The crack on the enemy's defence, the reminding wounds on his body, is apparently not a debuff... I mean, it is... it should be... but that isn't convenient, so let's make it a party buff... (?)
2) I thought of bringing my opinion to the table. These are just personal opinions and not meant as counter-suggestions. a) Over-buffs: Don't just hastily add buffs, especially at the already best assets of TR. b) Executioner: He should stay pretty much as he is. c) Scoundrel: Changes needed, upping his damage too (an Immune target mechanic maybe or debuff) d) Master Infiltrator: Shouldn't be buffed. e) Whisperknife: Should be buffed. f) Shocking Execution/Courage Breaker: Toned down. g) Duelist's Flurry: Should stay the same (Don't whine about Drufi xD she'll get nerfed instead). h) Rest of TR powers: Here should be half of your suggestions, like in any other class balance thread I've read. Some powers need to be upped, and we could see some great ideas here too. An MI Executioner can be the comparison for the damage output, he shouldn't be buffed himself directly. The other paragons, on the other hand, should. And all TR paths would be 'buffed' -well, improved- by the changes on TR Powers. As I said, these are just my thoughts and I won't contribute by suggesting anything really myself. May Olidammara be with the rest of the rogues though.
Post edited by stathisjoestar on
You may win a thousand fights, but you can only lose one.
The executioner staying as is and being the model of other trees is not going to work because .. Although MI/executioner is our best alternative right now it is not competitive with other DPS of equal gear/skill players. I have a 4180 IL TR and a GWF and CW also over 4K IL Not only do the GWF and CW offer much more to the group in matters of utility as they can DPS and have better survivabilty but offer offtanking capability and buff/debuff or CC to the group . Not to mention in a run with a GWF or CW on a TR you will not come close in terms of dps .in a pug run yes,in a run where you outgear them yes . But all things being equal.. not even close plus the fact they offer more to the group than just DPS. TR right now is a one trick pony. Plus SoD has major issues that I won't go into but as anyone that plays a TR knows what they are.
I think the problem is people go into a pug run and see a TR top the chart and think ohhh TR is fine.. This is true until a certain level where our gear gives bigger and bigger stat bonuses of stuff we are already maxed out in. I.e. Armor pen,crit,and defense is useless no matter how much you stack as it won't stop the one hit wonder.So as we get higher and higher endgame while other classes grow we hit a plateau. As James and mory and the other top rogues have stated . The issue as I see it is classes have morphed and grown out of what they were originally designed for as DC can dps and do it well.tanks can also dps and still maintain Thier tanking function. While TR was designed for dps and has no other viability but dps so you would think they would. BE the best at it...errrr no. No one says ok we need a healer let's get a TR but in the same breath they can say we need dps we can use a DC
To even say mI/executioner is fine makes me wonder...do you play a 4200+ TR?
@stathisjoestar First, you still didnt tell us about what is your TR experience based on. Dont bother going deeper if you are not capable explaining that thing. As @mousebreaker85#4641 already said, describing TR perfectly. Whatever TR does, other class can do it better.
1. What you simply dont understand and why i question you playing TR at all is that it doesnt matter if u think our suggestions are in the spirit of the Rogue or not. Current TR abilities dont work and we cant change them because they wont be in the spirit of the Rogue? Stick with it even if it doesnt work. Thats not helpful so stop pursuing that idea.
a. It is DOT. So what? DOTs are not strange to Rogues. We use them. Who cares if it bites u hard once or few times. c. No matter how much u dont like our suggestions for Deathknell and Last moments, they simply dont work as they currently are. d. Again with the fairy tales. e. Current Skullcracker has damage buff. Our Skullcracker has damage buff. Where is the difference? f. What tailing are u talking about? 99% of the bosses are not mobile so what tailing? Every hit is not a bleed, last hit applies 10 bleeds. It will still be main button to be pressed, others will get a bit more attention.
2. a.Which overbuffs? b. Not good enough as is. c. We did exactly that, upped his damage, immune targets included. d. We didnt change MI. e. We, again, did exactly that. f. We did it or at least tried.
You probably dont even play TR, at least not enough to understand the issues so please stop wasting our time.
4
micky1p00Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,594Arc User
"not-well-thought" sure, but I still didn't see anything well thought from you either.
Indeed, but you don't see me making a thread about class balance suggestions either. Since a group of TR-lovers made one, and since I myself didn't have any viable suggestions or was confident how the feats/powers could be tweaked to be up to the meta, I wanted to point out some basic things, plus my opinion.
1) Respect the source material. You rushed to make the TR stronger, but you ignored the playstyle of what you're changing.
"Executioner: Uses stealth to try and deal as much damage as possible in a single strike. " "Scoundrel: A brawler who debuffs foes and can take a lot of damage. "
That's what you had quoted. Yet... a) Shadow of Demise: You made it a DoT. b) Shadowborn: You made it a quite constant super-buff. c) Last Moments/Deathknell: You made it apply even at full Health and above half HP, as a constant buff. d) Dying Breath/Twisted Grin: You suggested those not having to do with an enemy's execution. The path is called Executioner, and he has a very particular set of skills... skills he has acquired over a very long adventure... skills that have to do with finishing off enemies with single strong strikes. Apparently, that's not interpreted as a DoT (?) or a buff when enemy is full HP. That's elementary.
e) Skullcracker: That's what he does. He does damage, and he knows things. Let's scrap off that thing about Scoundrel having a special role or affinity. A brawler who debuffs foes and can take a lot of damage. Scoundrel now... has a damage bonus. (Noting that the Skullcracker idea I mentioned was a mere idea, it's not Scoundrel's balance or something.)
f) Duelist's Flurry: You're not just tailing the opponent with a flurry of melee hits... being the great weapon fighter you are, every single hit is now a mighty Bleed. *now finish him off with a swipe of your axe!* Having fast sneaky strikes randomly slipping by the enemy's defence and wounding him here and there sounds like a very Rogue-ish thing anyway, scrap it off.
2) I thought of bringing my opinion to the table. These are just personal opinions and not meant as counter-suggestions. a) Over-buffs: Don't just hastily add buffs, especially at the already best assets of TR. b) Executioner: He should stay pretty much as he is. c) Scoundrel: Changes needed, upping his damage too (an Immune target mechanic maybe or debuff) d) Master Infiltrator: Shouldn't be buffed. e) Whisperknife: Should be buffed. f) Shocking Execution/Courage Breaker: Toned down. g) Duelist's Flurry: Should stay the same (Don't whine about Drufi xD she'll get nerfed instead). h) Rest of TR powers: Here should be half of your suggestions, like in any other class balance thread I've read. Some powers need to be upped, and we could see some great ideas here too. An MI Executioner can be the comparison for the damage output, he shouldn't be buffed himself directly. The other paragons, on the other hand, should. And all TR paths would be 'buffed' -well, improved- by the changes on TR Powers. As I said, these are just my thoughts and I won't contribute by suggesting anything really myself. May Olidammara be with the rest of the rogues though.
What were rogue trees before mod 4 balance? They had nothing in common with today's concept. Again you repeat about the overbuffs and changes when you clearly do not play rogue.
Read the SoD change again. It's not a DoT in the simple sense. And what the problem of a finisher to actually finish stuff ? now it doesn't work.
Constant super buff ? Disabled the main benefit of using it with WW directly so it's on average 8% buff, while currently I can self buff from 30k power to 100k without external help for 12 seconds. You read tooltips but have no consideration about the skill interaction. You repeat the same and the same, and just disregard any answer. I've already answered it, the time is set by balancing, it's the mechanics that important. After stealth, until expires and until next stealth (the shortest of those) if it's 2 seconds or 5 it's up to the numbers. And again, 'super buff', you disregard any actual working of the powers, as 2 seconds would be about 3% buff in party content. That is comparable to T1 feat now !
Duelist's Flurry: You're not just tailing the opponent with a flurry of melee hits... being the great weapon fighter you are, every single hit is now a mighty Bleed. *now finish him off with a swipe of your axe!* Having fast sneaky strikes randomly slipping by the enemy's defence and wounding him here and there sounds like a very Rogue-ish thing anyway, scrap it off.
You are such a fan of the 'story' play TR. And how the hell you manage to twist it as such ? The ENTIRE FLURRY - over 11 hits, creates one single bleed ! (There is no single difference if it's 10 stacks or 1 stack as long as the total damage is comparable) What axe what swipe ? Enough with the trolling. What you type has nothing to do with neither the suggestions or reality.
But you are clearly trolling with some imaginary things, while I'm trying to answer by points. I'll rather use the time to actually play the game..
Last Moments/Deathknell - Yes, think about another name and be happy. Call it shadow super illuminated feat. Lets go the source material and look what 'executioner' had:
Tier 1 1. Dazzling Blades - Your At-Will powers have a 1/2/3/4/5% chance to reduce the cool-down on recharging Encounter powers by 1 second.
2. Thrill of the Kill - When you land a killing blow, gain .2/.4/.6/.8/1% of your Action Points.
Tier 2 3. Cruelty’s Reward - When you critically strike a foe you generate 2/4/6/8/10% less threat for 6 seconds. 4. Devastating Shroud - Increase your critical strike chance and severity by 2/4/6/8/10% for 6 seconds after using Shocking Execution.
Tier 3 5. Brutal Backstab - While Stealthed you critical with 5/10/15/20/25% more severity. 6. Critical Teamwork - You and your nearby allies gain a 1/2/3/4/5% chance to crit.
Tier 4 7. Deadly Momentum - Duelist’s Flurry has a 5/10/15/20/25% chance to apply ‘Deadly Momentum’ Deadly Momentum; Increases your critical severity by 3% per stack. 5 stack maximum. 8. Sharpened Steel - Blitz and Wicked Reminder have 2/4/6/8/10% more chance to crit.
9. Overrun Critical - When you land a critical hit, one of your next attacks strikes with 30% of your crit severity.
Do you see anything that has anything to do with someones HP ? You only get Thrill of the Kill and yet it's t2 and killing blow in PvE is everything you dealt damage to. And not literally. So nothing that grants damage per HP or next hit after foe dies.
Dying Breath/Twisted Grin: Where you see any suggestion ? There was a problem pointed out, that makes those much less useful. And destroy the game play. More so re-read the skill again, they have nothing to do with executing a target either. They are activated AFTER the foe is dead.
3
micky1p00Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,594Arc User
edited April 2017
and he has a very particular set of skills... skills he has acquired over a very long adventure... skills that have to do with finishing off enemies with single strong strikes. Apparently, that's not interpreted as a DoT (?) or a buff when enemy is full HP. That's elementary.
No, it is decided by a dev, and the narrative can be adapted later and that is elementary Watson.
e) Skullcracker: That's what he does. He does damage, and he knows things. Let's scrap off that thing about Scoundrel having a special role or affinity. A brawler who debuffs foes and can take a lot of damage. Scoundrel now... has a damage bonus. (Noting that the Skullcracker idea I mentioned was a mere idea, it's not Scoundrel's balance or something.)
What? I don't follow. As of now, scoundrel doesn't do damage. A wet noodle does more damage. Or a healadin. The suggested changes wont bring Scaundarel even close to being a dps path. For that it needs changes in hundreds of percent. The changes are enough that people wont point and laugh at "What the hell is that circus show with flying daggers ?! And why it's in the dungeon with us !?"
2) I thought of bringing my opinion to the table. These are just personal opinions and not meant as counter-suggestions. a) Over-buffs: Don't just hastily add buffs, especially at the already best assets of TR. b) Executioner: He should stay pretty much as he is. c) Scoundrel: Changes needed, upping his damage too (an Immune target mechanic maybe or debuff) d) Master Infiltrator: Shouldn't be buffed. e) Whisperknife: Should be buffed. f) Shocking Execution/Courage Breaker: Toned down. g) Duelist's Flurry: Should stay the same (Don't whine about Drufi xD she'll get nerfed instead). h) Rest of TR powers: Here should be half of your suggestions, like in any other class balance thread I've read. Some powers need to be upped, and we could see some great ideas here too. An MI Executioner can be the comparison for the damage output, he shouldn't be buffed himself directly. The other paragons, on the other hand, should. And all TR paths would be 'buffed' -well, improved- by the changes on TR Powers. As I said, these are just my thoughts and I won't contribute by suggesting anything really myself. May Olidammara be with the rest of the rogues though.
I'll skip few and respond to the main:
Duelist flurry: Drufi was an example, and please, no one whined. Again it's clear that you don't play TR, or you would have noticed that setting the bleed as crit is vital mechanic, but less important on BiS with crit chance at 100% (or above). This is more important than buff spike while not BiS. Many players can't do it, because of the visual buff icons. Also that makes TR rotation much more dynamic than other classes and widens the skill gap. All that again, not at BiS. At BiS suddenly you are no longer required to do it for the same reasons (over 100% crit in any case), and you actually benefit from the later bleed set because of the external buffs.
An MI executioner as comparison to damage is nice and dandy, but without more or less using cheesy mechanics that I've mentioned TRs are not on par with other classed even at what supposed their best aspect, single target damage. And the best takes much more effort, to time, due to some of the things mentioned.
So... I like the suggestion.. keep it as is... /sarcasm.
Ding ding ding.. Winner winner chicken dinner! Blur and Mickey hit the nail on the head..don't even gotta say no more it's a wrap! As far as pvp.neverwinter pvp has much bigger issues than class balancing, it's broken at the moment and trying to balance pve with pvp will only break pve more. The way tenacity works needs damage scaling and overhaul.no single class skill should be doing 100k to players period . Every great pvp game usually uses paper-rock-scissor system Tanks kill rogues ,rogues kill clothies,clothies kill tanks. Never winter system seems to have no rhyme or reason to it. But this is mainly about TR pve we can get to pvp in another post as it will prob take awhile
"not-well-thought" sure, but I still didn't see anything well thought from you either.
Indeed, but you don't see me making a thread about class balance suggestions either. Since a group of TR-lovers made one, and since I myself didn't have any viable suggestions or was confident how the feats/powers could be tweaked to be up to the meta, I wanted to point out some basic things, plus my opinion.
1)Respect the source material. You rushed to make the TR stronger, but you ignored the playstyle of what you're changing.
"Executioner: Uses stealth to try and deal as much damage as possible in a single strike. " "Scoundrel: A brawler who debuffs foes and can take a lot of damage. "
That's what you had quoted. Yet... a) Shadow of Demise: You made it a DoT. b) Shadowborn: You made it a quite constant super-buff. c) Last Moments/Deathknell: You made it apply even at full Health and above half HP, as a constant buff. d) Dying Breath/Twisted Grin: You suggested those not having to do with an enemy's execution. The path is called Executioner, and he has a very particular set of skills... skills he has acquired over a very long adventure... skills that have to do with finishing off enemies with single strong strikes. Apparently, that's not interpreted as a DoT (?) or a buff when enemy is full HP. That's elementary.
e) Skullcracker: That's what he does. He does damage, and he knows things. Let's scrap off that thing about Scoundrel having a special role or affinity. A brawler who debuffs foes and can take a lot of damage. Scoundrel now... has a damage bonus. (Noting that the Skullcracker idea I mentioned was a mere idea, it's not Scoundrel's balance or something.)
f) Duelist's Flurry: You're not just tailing the opponent with a flurry of melee hits... being the great weapon fighter you are, every single hit is now a mighty Bleed. *now finish him off with a swipe of your axe!* Having fast sneaky strikes randomly slipping by the enemy's defence and wounding him here and there sounds like a very Rogue-ish thing anyway, scrap it off. g) Wicked Reminder: The crack on the enemy's armor, the reminding wound on his body, is apparently not a debuff. I mean... it is... it should... but that's not convenient for the sake of damage. So you made it into a party buff. (?)
2) I thought of bringing my opinion to the table. These are just personal opinions and not meant as counter-suggestions. a) Over-buffs: Don't just hastily add buffs, especially at the already best assets of TR. b) Executioner: He should stay pretty much as he is. c) Scoundrel: Changes needed, upping his damage too (an Immune target mechanic maybe or debuff) d) Master Infiltrator: Shouldn't be buffed. e) Whisperknife: Should be buffed. f) Shocking Execution/Courage Breaker: Toned down. g) Duelist's Flurry: Should stay the same (Don't whine about Drufi xD she'll get nerfed instead).
h) Rest of TR Powers: Here should be half of your suggestions, like in any other class balance thread I've read. Some powers need to be upped, and we could see some great ideas here too. An MI Executioner can be the comparison for the damage output, he shouldn't be buffed himself directly. The other paragons, on the other hand, should. And all TR paths would be 'buffed' -well, improved- by the changes on TR Powers. As I said, these are just my thoughts and I won't contribute further by suggesting anything really myself. May Olidammara be with the rest of the rogues though.
Edit: I wanted to edit my previous comment, but accidentally removed it. Some buffs are needed (for example, buffing the Scoundrel path), but quelling a path's singularity/role when doing so, is the least desirable. I hope you get to realise that, for your suggestions had been chosen with no single thought on the dynamic of the source material. Really so many random changes on core aspects of a path/feat/power, some of which I listed above, while trying to add said damage. There's like 10 of them in just one 'balance' post... so when you balance, at least mind the class first and then the damage. 'I wanted you to be better.' Also I don't have the time to point out all the off-the-mark responses in that barrage of defending posts, so many miss rolls there.
You may win a thousand fights, but you can only lose one.
0
micky1p00Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,594Arc User
Yes, not a single thought. Complete lack of understanding of the class. Also 0 experience in it. Throw in disregard of the practical needs. Oh and totally didn't quote the early variations of TR that has nothing in common with what you cling to. Oh and most importantly we ignored the actual balance in class balancing vs other classes. Yup you are totally right. Moving on.
Joestar.. We welcome your TR to join our FBI run the challenge is this.. If you can come within 20 million total dps of my CW then I will admit I was wrong and TR is competitive The thing that is really throwing me for a loop is you said keep in mind the class first and damage second but damage on a dps class whose sole purpose is damage really doesn't make sense are they not one in the same? Also you are really clinging to lore and what the original purpose of the class and path is ..while every class in the game has strayed from that, as GWF a tank for all intents and purposes is now a beastly dps and a cleric who is a healer is also a mean buff machine who can throw out some chart smashing dps also. So why are you so desperately clinging to the role of the TR when every other reworked class has gone so far off the beaten path of Thier original role. Every class that has a rework done has had options and Buffs given to fit different playstyles while TR besides the major nerf has basically remained wanting after mod 4-6 The thing a lot of TR's are most upset about is almost every class was reworked or buffed to make them competitive dps ..this was our turf that was invaded by classes that were not dps and made us an optional feature Now this wouldn't be so bad if they gave TR a tank path or a healer path...sounds ridiculous right! But this is what was done with tanks and healers when they gave them DPS capabilities . Hence the outrage! Now you seem like the type that will argue just to argue so I doubt this will change your mind and stop you to think about it. But I hope you really go into a skirmish with a TR a GWF and a CW all equally geared skilled and buffed and watch ..
@defiantone99 the awesome TRs are the ones that made this post. You must not play on a endgame lvl. As a TR I out DPS countless 4k players but going against a skilled HR or GWF I have no chance at all. Like c'mon HRs using PG (AoE encounter) on a boss... Shows you how stupidly op that is. GWF hitting 16+ million IBS and that has a small AoE as well. The list goes on when comparing endgame TRs to HR and GWFs. Put the best TRs against the best HRs or GWFs in a FBI the TR will fall way behind. I'm sorry but if you're a HR or GWF and got out DPSed by a TR don't come to the forums and say they're not underpowered.
Comments
You may win a thousand fights, but you can only lose one.
Unfortunatly those suggestions are irrelevant to the issue. There is no piercing damage in PvE, everyone above the DR cap. Adding 50% piercing damage to next encounter is negligible for a capstone. And probably will have more than needed issues for PvP.
In PvE you have ~100% CA uptime. So you suggest to make a capstone that gives CA ? More so, large portion of players use skilfful infiltrator that gives 20sec of assured CA and that is over the daze and stealth that grant CA... And to add insult, to well insult, CA damage bonus is added to Severity, meaning it's about 10% damage bonus.
Lack of imagination, ok no problem, imagine suggestions that will actually do something. When have you actually played scoundrel ? Or saw one in PvE ?
You want to make it strong and respect it's role. Sure, so what it brings to the table ? Why should I respec to scoundrel ? How I can be more helpful to a party being one ?
Control is irrelevant. There are no significant party buffs or enemy debuff. There is no damage. Can't actually tank anything.
So ok, I fully agree that each path should have different play style, cons, and pros, and while sabo has an encounter heavy stealth based mechanics, and exe is straight glass cannon, what scoundrel is ? The party cheerleader ?
There are two options, either straight buff it a bit (yes 30% in this case is a bit) and let the more deflect, daze play style to be somewhat viable. As in do at least half the damage everyone else does. Or rework the whole thing with some vision and synergy. You refuse the first, and do not provide the second. And hence we are stuck with a dead path. What absurd is, that we don't get to finish of enemies ! And if you played TR you would have noticed that little tiny issue. One Ice knife and no boss.... Your 30% feat never saw the day of light...
What slip out of stealth? what silent strike ? I'm trying to kill Drufi or being useful in MSVA, not hunting patrons at the moonstone mask.
I'm glad you have imagination, and sure, I don't think anyone object to immersive game or *more* immersive. But make the numbers fit.
You can't balance with 'deal single strike' that what was at the beginning and got nerfed repeatedly until nothing remained due to PvP. Now we have what we have, and:
1. It's not enough.
2. It's cumbersome to utilize - non linear skill gap.
Very competitive? Please answer my original questions. I think you got your impressions out of some random pug runs. The effect that even mediocre TR like me, can outdps the second next about 10 times in a random pug doesn't mean it's "very competitive" it only speaks about the reference.
The average TR, especially at BiS, is not competitive to average other classes. Competitive is +-10%, hell, +-20%. This is not reality right now. And neither the effort and 'luck' it takes to get to the top of the scale. There is a limit to how much a rotation and or mechanics can be prone to mistiming, or to have the class mechanics nullify 25k-28k stats.
"not-well-thought" sure, but I still didn't see anything well thought from you either.
"already successful Executioner" - Maybe you know something I do not, I'm willing to learn, won't be the first time nor the last that I don't know things. So as I've clearly asked you before, what are your rotations in said content, and how you are doing comparative ? If there is a way I can be successful at the same ease as other classes, just show me how....
Because for now, even if an average BiS TR can outdps in orders of magnitude random pugs, in normal groups, in end game content, we bring our charming personality and great effort, but that still leaves us somewhat behind. 1. I've clearly said the 5 second are example. And it can be clearly balanced by the time length. Want it 2 seconds.. Have it 2 seconds. The mechanics is the point.
2. I've clearly wrote that 'until stealth' to prevent double dipping into shadowborn and stealth.
3. Executioner can't refill stealth every 6 seconds for a length of time. It's 10 seconds base, 9 with capstone, 8+ with TC4.
But the worst is that you cling to it without understanding the numbers. 200k power is normal buffed, 30k as doubled base is 12% dps And with less than 100% uptime... So we get ~8% As may it not seems so but I don't have any issue with negative feedback. Pointting out mistakes is one thing, and i'm sure there are plenty, but I do I do have issue with empty adjectives "not-well-thought" And people who 'elegantly' avoid simple questions asked from them.
Worse, a class can't be balanced by a tooltip read, or imagining how a class behaves without experience or the population numbers.
We try to use the first, hopefully devs have the second.
I also had to laugh when he said TR is competitive and fine as is!!
Competitive against random pugs?
We are about as competitive as a one legged man in a butt kicking contest.
A great TR can still top the chart vs averAge players ..yes but not against equally geared and skilled players.
The other thing said was tone down shocking execution and courage breaker!?!
Tone them down ?for what? For the sake of pvp?
It's already useless in pve and toning them down would make them even more useless.
Who uses shocking execution in pve?
Noone
Why?
Because you would be sacrificing mega dps for the sake of one big hit.
Another thing people fail to realize is pvp is not made for 1v1
A rogue can put up a big number
Clicking ITC ,lurkers,gleaming,roll boost,artifact,stealth and bang!! Big number!
But now what? They aren't realizing how long it will take to get all those back up again .
So yes we can shine once every minute or so against 1enemy but after you one shot that cw ,a gwf jumps on you and curb stomps you .but but you had a big hit!
Pvp is a group effort .
DhS - yes, "less damage to allies" should be available at 1 rank already. Something like 5% reduction + another 5% from feat - would be better. Still, at current state, imo, same flaw as SoD - it takes too much time to hit it's full damage. Boss fights - yes, but an at-will only used for bosses is... Correct me if i'm wrong, DhS now hit every 1.5 sec - maybe 0.8-1 sec would be better way?
VP - yes again, though 2 ways to prone something both only for WK seems a bit unfair. Also - not that long ago, 1st dagger marked invisible targets - and that's what i'd like to see back.
2 cents on Scoundrel, pve. (wk).
As someone mentioned once - Skullcracker's speed bonus should be permanent, speed is never enough for me and lose 15% just because of attacking someone is lame.
Picking scoundrel i've realised perfectly that i'm not gonna be best DPSer, yes, i was quite happy with cc-support role.
Until i run another PoM - 7-8 mobs on me, stealth-SB - DF (OD, off-handed) - skullcracker+concussive strikes+SB+slow from SB+Slow from OD. Then SW fired dreadtheft and all that bunch run to him like some HAMSTER freight train. I can't agro mobs enough and can't hold them there they are.
So, i'd like to see stun for concussive strikes instead of daze at least for pve. O'course extra damage for cc-immune targets welcome as well.
IMO, scoundrel was a way to give a second breath for powers that are commonly left behind - because of poor damage/cc-lack or something else. Unfortunately, our 0 aggro generation and *daze* (target still moves at full speed) still made no use for cc-role.
Indeed, but you don't see me making a thread about class balance suggestions either.
Since a group of TR-lovers made one, and since I myself didn't have any viable suggestions or was confident how the feats/powers could be tweaked to be up to the meta, I wanted to point out some basic things, plus my opinion.
1) Respect the source material. You rushed to make the TR stronger, but you ignored the playstyle of what you're changing.
"Scoundrel: A brawler who debuffs foes and can take a lot of damage. "
That's what you had quoted. Yet...
a) Shadow of Demise: You made it a DoT.
b) Shadowborn: You made it a quite constant super-buff.
c) Last Moments/Deathknell: You made it apply even at full Health and above half HP, as a constant buff.
d) Dying Breath/Twisted Grin: You suggested those not having to do with an enemy's execution.
The path is called Executioner, and he has a very particular set of skills... skills he has acquired over a very long adventure... skills that have to do with finishing off enemies with single strong strikes.
Apparently, that's not interpreted as a DoT (?) or a buff when enemy is full HP. That's elementary.
e) Skullcracker: That's what he does. He does damage, and he knows things.
Let's scrap off that thing about Scoundrel having a special role or affinity.
A brawler who debuffs foes and can take a lot of damage.Scoundrel now... has a damage bonus.(Noting that the Skullcracker idea I mentioned was a mere idea, it's not Scoundrel's balance or something.)
f) Duelist's Flurry: You're not just tailing the opponent with a flurry of melee hits... being the
great weapon fighteryou are, every single hit is now a mighty Bleed. *now finish him off with a swipe of your axe!*Having fast sneaky strikes randomly slipping by the enemy's defence and wounding him here and there sounds like a very
Rogue-ishthing anyway, scrap it off.e) Wicked Reminder: The crack on the enemy's defence, the reminding wounds on his body, is apparently not a debuff... I mean, it is... it should be... but that isn't convenient, so let's make it a party buff... (?)
2) I thought of bringing my opinion to the table. These are just personal opinions and not meant as counter-suggestions.
a) Over-buffs: Don't just hastily add buffs, especially at the already best assets of TR.
b) Executioner: He should stay pretty much as he is.
c) Scoundrel: Changes needed, upping his damage too (an Immune target mechanic maybe or debuff)
d) Master Infiltrator: Shouldn't be buffed.
e) Whisperknife: Should be buffed.
f) Shocking Execution/Courage Breaker: Toned down.
g) Duelist's Flurry: Should stay the same (Don't whine about Drufi xD she'll get nerfed instead).
h) Rest of TR powers: Here should be half of your suggestions, like in any other class balance thread I've read. Some powers need to be upped, and we could see some great ideas here too. An MI Executioner can be the comparison for the damage output, he shouldn't be buffed himself directly. The other paragons, on the other hand, should. And all TR paths would be 'buffed' -well, improved- by the changes on TR Powers.
As I said, these are just my thoughts and I won't contribute by suggesting anything really myself. May Olidammara be with the rest of the rogues though.
You may win a thousand fights, but you can only lose one.
Although MI/executioner is our best alternative right now it is not competitive with other DPS of equal gear/skill players.
I have a 4180 IL TR and a GWF and CW also over 4K IL
Not only do the GWF and CW offer much more to the group in matters of utility as they can DPS and have better survivabilty but offer offtanking capability and buff/debuff or CC to the group .
Not to mention in a run with a GWF or CW on a TR you will not come close in terms of dps .in a pug run yes,in a run where you outgear them yes .
But all things being equal.. not even close plus the fact they offer more to the group than just DPS.
TR right now is a one trick pony.
Plus SoD has major issues that I won't go into but as anyone that plays a TR knows what they are.
I think the problem is people go into a pug run and see a TR top the chart and think ohhh TR is fine..
This is true until a certain level where our gear gives bigger and bigger stat bonuses of stuff we are already maxed out in. I.e. Armor pen,crit,and defense is useless no matter how much you stack as it won't stop the one hit wonder.So as we get higher and higher endgame while other classes grow we hit a plateau.
As James and mory and the other top rogues have stated .
The issue as I see it is classes have morphed and grown out of what they were originally designed for as DC can dps and do it well.tanks can also dps and still maintain Thier tanking function.
While TR was designed for dps and has no other viability but dps so you would think they would. BE the best at it...errrr no.
No one says ok we need a healer let's get a TR but in the same breath they can say we need dps we can use a DC
To even say mI/executioner is fine makes me wonder...do you play a 4200+ TR?
As @mousebreaker85#4641 already said, describing TR perfectly. Whatever TR does, other class can do it better.
1. What you simply dont understand and why i question you playing TR at all is that it doesnt matter if u think our suggestions are in the spirit of the Rogue or not. Current TR abilities dont work and we cant change them because they wont be in the spirit of the Rogue? Stick with it even if it doesnt work. Thats not helpful so stop pursuing that idea.
a. It is DOT. So what? DOTs are not strange to Rogues. We use them. Who cares if it bites u hard once or few times.
c. No matter how much u dont like our suggestions for Deathknell and Last moments, they simply dont work as they currently are.
d. Again with the fairy tales.
e. Current Skullcracker has damage buff. Our Skullcracker has damage buff. Where is the difference?
f. What tailing are u talking about? 99% of the bosses are not mobile so what tailing? Every hit is not a bleed, last hit applies 10 bleeds. It will still be main button to be pressed, others will get a bit more attention.
2. a.Which overbuffs?
b. Not good enough as is.
c. We did exactly that, upped his damage, immune targets included.
d. We didnt change MI.
e. We, again, did exactly that.
f. We did it or at least tried.
You probably dont even play TR, at least not enough to understand the issues so please stop wasting our time.
What were rogue trees before mod 4 balance? They had nothing in common with today's concept.
Again you repeat about the overbuffs and changes when you clearly do not play rogue.
Read the SoD change again. It's not a DoT in the simple sense. And what the problem of a finisher to actually finish stuff ? now it doesn't work.
Constant super buff ? Disabled the main benefit of using it with WW directly so it's on average 8% buff, while currently I can self buff from 30k power to 100k without external help for 12 seconds. You read tooltips but have no consideration about the skill interaction. You repeat the same and the same, and just disregard any answer. I've already answered it, the time is set by balancing, it's the mechanics that important. After stealth, until expires and until next stealth (the shortest of those) if it's 2 seconds or 5 it's up to the numbers. And again, 'super buff', you disregard any actual working of the powers, as 2 seconds would be about 3% buff in party content. That is comparable to T1 feat now !
great weapon fighteryou are, every single hit is now a mighty Bleed. *now finish him off with a swipe of your axe!*Having fast sneaky strikes randomly slipping by the enemy's defence and wounding him here and there sounds like a very
Rogue-ishthing anyway, scrap it off.You are such a fan of the 'story' play TR.
And how the hell you manage to twist it as such ? The ENTIRE FLURRY - over 11 hits, creates one single bleed !
(There is no single difference if it's 10 stacks or 1 stack as long as the total damage is comparable)
What axe what swipe ? Enough with the trolling. What you type has nothing to do with neither the suggestions or reality.
But you are clearly trolling with some imaginary things, while I'm trying to answer by points. I'll rather use the time to actually play the game..
Last Moments/Deathknell - Yes, think about another name and be happy. Call it shadow super illuminated feat.
Lets go the source material and look what 'executioner' had:
Tier 1
1. Dazzling Blades - Your At-Will powers have a 1/2/3/4/5% chance to reduce the cool-down on recharging Encounter powers by 1 second.
2. Thrill of the Kill - When you land a killing blow, gain .2/.4/.6/.8/1% of your Action Points.
Tier 2
3. Cruelty’s Reward - When you critically strike a foe you generate 2/4/6/8/10% less threat for 6 seconds.
4. Devastating Shroud - Increase your critical strike chance and severity by 2/4/6/8/10% for 6 seconds after using Shocking Execution.
Tier 3
5. Brutal Backstab - While Stealthed you critical with 5/10/15/20/25% more severity.
6. Critical Teamwork - You and your nearby allies gain a 1/2/3/4/5% chance to crit.
Tier 4
7. Deadly Momentum - Duelist’s Flurry has a 5/10/15/20/25% chance to apply ‘Deadly Momentum’ Deadly Momentum; Increases your critical severity by 3% per stack. 5 stack maximum.
8. Sharpened Steel - Blitz and Wicked Reminder have 2/4/6/8/10% more chance to crit.
9. Overrun Critical - When you land a critical hit, one of your next attacks strikes with 30% of your crit severity.
Do you see anything that has anything to do with someones HP ? You only get Thrill of the Kill and yet it's t2 and killing blow in PvE is everything you dealt damage to. And not literally. So nothing that grants damage per HP or next hit after foe dies.
Dying Breath/Twisted Grin: Where you see any suggestion ? There was a problem pointed out, that makes those much less useful. And destroy the game play. More so re-read the skill again, they have nothing to do with executing a target either. They are activated AFTER the foe is dead.
and he has a very particular set of skills... skills he has acquired over a very long adventure... skills that have to do with finishing off enemies with single strong strikes.
Apparently, that's not interpreted as a DoT (?) or a buff when enemy is full HP. That's elementary.
No, it is decided by a dev, and the narrative can be adapted later and that is elementary Watson.
e) Skullcracker: That's what he does. He does damage, and he knows things.
Let's scrap off that thing about Scoundrel having a special role or affinity.
A brawler who debuffs foes and can take a lot of damage.Scoundrel now... has a damage bonus.(Noting that the Skullcracker idea I mentioned was a mere idea, it's not Scoundrel's balance or something.)
What? I don't follow. As of now, scoundrel doesn't do damage. A wet noodle does more damage. Or a healadin. The suggested changes wont bring Scaundarel even close to being a dps path. For that it needs changes in hundreds of percent.
The changes are enough that people wont point and laugh at "What the hell is that circus show with flying daggers ?! And why it's in the dungeon with us !?"
2) I thought of bringing my opinion to the table. These are just personal opinions and not meant as counter-suggestions.
a) Over-buffs: Don't just hastily add buffs, especially at the already best assets of TR.
b) Executioner: He should stay pretty much as he is.
c) Scoundrel: Changes needed, upping his damage too (an Immune target mechanic maybe or debuff)
d) Master Infiltrator: Shouldn't be buffed.
e) Whisperknife: Should be buffed.
f) Shocking Execution/Courage Breaker: Toned down.
g) Duelist's Flurry: Should stay the same (Don't whine about Drufi xD she'll get nerfed instead).
h) Rest of TR powers: Here should be half of your suggestions, like in any other class balance thread I've read. Some powers need to be upped, and we could see some great ideas here too. An MI Executioner can be the comparison for the damage output, he shouldn't be buffed himself directly. The other paragons, on the other hand, should. And all TR paths would be 'buffed' -well, improved- by the changes on TR Powers.
As I said, these are just my thoughts and I won't contribute by suggesting anything really myself. May Olidammara be with the rest of the rogues though.
I'll skip few and respond to the main:
Duelist flurry: Drufi was an example, and please, no one whined.
Again it's clear that you don't play TR, or you would have noticed that setting the bleed as crit is vital mechanic, but less important on BiS with crit chance at 100% (or above). This is more important than buff spike while not BiS. Many players can't do it, because of the visual buff icons. Also that makes TR rotation much more dynamic than other classes and widens the skill gap. All that again, not at BiS. At BiS suddenly you are no longer required to do it for the same reasons (over 100% crit in any case), and you actually benefit from the later bleed set because of the external buffs.
An MI executioner as comparison to damage is nice and dandy, but without more or less using cheesy mechanics that I've mentioned TRs are not on par with other classed even at what supposed their best aspect, single target damage. And the best takes much more effort, to time, due to some of the things mentioned.
So... I like the suggestion.. keep it as is... /sarcasm.
Winner winner chicken dinner!
Blur and Mickey hit the nail on the head..don't even gotta say no more it's a wrap!
As far as pvp.neverwinter pvp has much bigger issues than class balancing, it's broken at the moment and trying to balance pve with pvp will only break pve more.
The way tenacity works needs damage scaling and overhaul.no single class skill should be doing 100k to players period .
Every great pvp game usually uses paper-rock-scissor system
Tanks kill rogues ,rogues kill clothies,clothies kill tanks.
Never winter system seems to have no rhyme or reason to it.
But this is mainly about TR pve we can get to pvp in another post as it will prob take awhile
Indeed, but you don't see me making a thread about class balance suggestions either.
Since a group of TR-lovers made one, and since I myself didn't have any viable suggestions or was confident how the feats/powers could be tweaked to be up to the meta, I wanted to point out some basic things, plus my opinion.
1) Respect the source material. You rushed to make the TR stronger, but you ignored the playstyle of what you're changing.
"Scoundrel: A brawler who debuffs foes and can take a lot of damage. "
That's what you had quoted. Yet...
a) Shadow of Demise: You made it a DoT.
b) Shadowborn: You made it a quite constant super-buff.
c) Last Moments/Deathknell: You made it apply even at full Health and above half HP, as a constant buff.
d) Dying Breath/Twisted Grin: You suggested those not having to do with an enemy's execution.
The path is called Executioner, and he has a very particular set of skills... skills he has acquired over a very long adventure... skills that have to do with finishing off enemies with single strong strikes.
Apparently, that's not interpreted as a DoT (?) or a buff when enemy is full HP. That's elementary.
e) Skullcracker: That's what he does. He does damage, and he knows things.
Let's scrap off that thing about Scoundrel having a special role or affinity.
A brawler who debuffs foes and can take a lot of damage.Scoundrel now... has a damage bonus.(Noting that the Skullcracker idea I mentioned was a mere idea, it's not Scoundrel's balance or something.)
f) Duelist's Flurry: You're not just tailing the opponent with a flurry of melee hits... being the
great weapon fighteryou are, every single hit is now a mighty Bleed. *now finish him off with a swipe of your axe!*Having fast sneaky strikes randomly slipping by the enemy's defence and wounding him here and there sounds like a very
Rogue-ishthing anyway, scrap it off.g) Wicked Reminder: The crack on the enemy's armor, the reminding wound on his body, is apparently not a debuff. I mean... it is... it should... but that's not convenient for the sake of damage. So you made it into a party buff. (?)
2) I thought of bringing my opinion to the table. These are just personal opinions and not meant as counter-suggestions.
a) Over-buffs: Don't just hastily add buffs, especially at the already best assets of TR.
b) Executioner: He should stay pretty much as he is.
c) Scoundrel: Changes needed, upping his damage too (an Immune target mechanic maybe or debuff)
d) Master Infiltrator: Shouldn't be buffed.
e) Whisperknife: Should be buffed.
f) Shocking Execution/Courage Breaker: Toned down.
g) Duelist's Flurry: Should stay the same (Don't whine about Drufi xD she'll get nerfed instead).
h) Rest of TR Powers: Here should be half of your suggestions, like in any other class balance thread I've read.
Some powers need to be upped, and we could see some great ideas here too. An MI Executioner can be the comparison for the damage output, he shouldn't be buffed himself directly. The other paragons, on the other hand, should. And all TR paths would be 'buffed' -well, improved- by the changes on TR Powers.
As I said, these are just my thoughts and I won't contribute further by suggesting anything really myself. May Olidammara be with the rest of the rogues though.
Edit: I wanted to edit my previous comment, but accidentally removed it.
Some buffs are needed (for example, buffing the Scoundrel path), but quelling a path's singularity/role when doing so, is the least desirable. I hope you get to realise that, for your suggestions had been chosen with no single thought on the dynamic of the source material. Really so many random changes on core aspects of a path/feat/power, some of which I listed above, while trying to add said damage. There's like 10 of them in just one 'balance' post... so when you balance, at least mind the class first and then the damage. 'I wanted you to be better.'
Also I don't have the time to point out all the off-the-mark responses in that barrage of defending posts, so many miss rolls there.
You may win a thousand fights, but you can only lose one.
We welcome your TR to join our FBI run the challenge is this..
If you can come within 20 million total dps of my CW then I will admit I was wrong and TR is competitive
The thing that is really throwing me for a loop is you said keep in mind the class first and damage second but damage on a dps class whose sole purpose is damage really doesn't make sense are they not one in the same?
Also you are really clinging to lore and what the original purpose of the class and path is ..while every class in the game has strayed from that, as GWF a tank for all intents and purposes is now a beastly dps and a cleric who is a healer is also a mean buff machine who can throw out some chart smashing dps also.
So why are you so desperately clinging to the role of the TR when every other reworked class has gone so far off the beaten path of Thier original role.
Every class that has a rework done has had options and Buffs given to fit different playstyles while TR besides the major nerf has basically remained wanting after mod 4-6
The thing a lot of TR's are most upset about is almost every class was reworked or buffed to make them competitive dps ..this was our turf that was invaded by classes that were not dps and made us an optional feature
Now this wouldn't be so bad if they gave TR a tank path or a healer path...sounds ridiculous right!
But this is what was done with tanks and healers when they gave them DPS capabilities .
Hence the outrage!
Now you seem like the type that will argue just to argue so I doubt this will change your mind and stop you to think about it. But I hope you really go into a skirmish with a TR a GWF and a CW all equally geared skilled and buffed and watch ..